Re: [Marxism] Sometimes the Bosses Are Stronger
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On Feb 25, 2015, at 4:20 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: On 2/25/15 5:37 PM, Marv Gandall wrote: There is a lot of scaremongering about a Grexit, and not only by nervous investors. I have yet to see anybody make the case that there wouldn't be at least than 2 years of pain but even if there was, the real problem is the underlying economy. Greece is suffering for the same reasons much of Eastern Europe is suffering. Its industrial base is third-tier. All this talk about the drachma versus the euro makes it sound like currency is the issue when it is one of a falling rate of profit. FROP theorist Micheal Roberts agrees with you, thinks the issue of a debt default is a diversion, and that only alternative open to the Syriza is to take over the banks and the commanding heights of the economy while mobilizing the Greek and European masses in a fight for socialism. I don’t believe that is your position, though it flows logically from the view that the real problem is the underlying capitalist economy. Frankly, I can’t see any other alternative for Syriza other than to repudiate the debt and nationalize the economy which would qualitatively distinguish it from the preceding Samaras government. On the other hand, I don’t know that the relationship of forces between the classes is such that it can be turned in its favour. This is the terrible dilemma facing the Tsipras government, which is caught between the proverbial rock and a hard place. The international left, especially that part of it which is not engaged in any serious political struggle, is hardly in a position to offer it tactical advice one way or another. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Sometimes the Bosses Are Stronger
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * By the way, I think it would be good to construct a typology of exit strategies used regarding on the one hand: capital flight, debt default, economic sabotage; and, on the other, restructuring to overcome the resulting difficulties (including both success stories and failures). On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 2:15 PM, Andrew Pollack acpolla...@gmail.com wrote: Weisbrot, in this paper and then again in recent writings, says Argentina recovered from default, and from cutting ties, very quickly, and argues that may be best for Greece. http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/argentina-success-2011-10.pdf Weisbrot is also delusional about how great the new agreement is, but every liberal has limits. See also: http://www.cepr.net/index.php/op-eds--columns/op-eds--columns/whos-extorting-who m-its-all-about-coercion http://www.cepr.net/index.php/op-eds--columns/op-eds--columns/whos-extorting-whom-its-all-about-coercion http://www.cepr.net/index.php/press-releases/press-releases/greek-bailout-extension-deal-represents-a-significant-retreat-by-the-european-authorities-cepr-co-director-says http://www.btlonline.org/2015/seg/150306af-btl-weisbrot.html On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 7:20 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 2/25/15 5:37 PM, Marv Gandall wrote: There is a lot of scaremongering about a Grexit, and not only by nervous investors. I have yet to see anybody make the case that there wouldn't be at least than 2 years of pain but even if there was, the real problem is the underlying economy. Greece is suffering for the same reasons much of Eastern Europe is suffering. Its industrial base is third-tier. All this talk about the drachma versus the euro makes it sound like currency is the issue when it is one of a falling rate of profit. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/ options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Sometimes the Bosses Are Stronger
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Syriza - a collective Odysseus caught between Scylla and Charybdis! On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 12:45 PM, Marv Gandall via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On Feb 25, 2015, at 4:20 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: On 2/25/15 5:37 PM, Marv Gandall wrote: There is a lot of scaremongering about a Grexit, and not only by nervous investors. I have yet to see anybody make the case that there wouldn't be at least than 2 years of pain but even if there was, the real problem is the underlying economy. Greece is suffering for the same reasons much of Eastern Europe is suffering. Its industrial base is third-tier. All this talk about the drachma versus the euro makes it sound like currency is the issue when it is one of a falling rate of profit. FROP theorist Micheal Roberts agrees with you, thinks the issue of a debt default is a diversion, and that only alternative open to the Syriza is to take over the banks and the commanding heights of the economy while mobilizing the Greek and European masses in a fight for socialism. I don’t believe that is your position, though it flows logically from the view that the real problem is the underlying capitalist economy. Frankly, I can’t see any other alternative for Syriza other than to repudiate the debt and nationalize the economy which would qualitatively distinguish it from the preceding Samaras government. On the other hand, I don’t know that the relationship of forces between the classes is such that it can be turned in its favour. This is the terrible dilemma facing the Tsipras government, which is caught between the proverbial rock and a hard place. The international left, especially that part of it which is not engaged in any serious political struggle, is hardly in a position to offer it tactical advice one way or another. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/sranz18%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Sometimes the Bosses Are Stronger
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Weisbrot, in this paper and then again in recent writings, says Argentina recovered from default, and from cutting ties, very quickly, and argues that may be best for Greece. http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/argentina-success-2011-10.pdf Weisbrot is also delusional about how great the new agreement is, but every liberal has limits. See also: http://www.cepr.net/index.php/op-eds--columns/op-eds--columns/whos-extorting-who m-its-all-about-coercion http://www.cepr.net/index.php/op-eds--columns/op-eds--columns/whos-extorting-whom-its-all-about-coercion http://www.cepr.net/index.php/press-releases/press-releases/greek-bailout-extension-deal-represents-a-significant-retreat-by-the-european-authorities-cepr-co-director-says http://www.btlonline.org/2015/seg/150306af-btl-weisbrot.html On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 7:20 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 2/25/15 5:37 PM, Marv Gandall wrote: There is a lot of scaremongering about a Grexit, and not only by nervous investors. I have yet to see anybody make the case that there wouldn't be at least than 2 years of pain but even if there was, the real problem is the underlying economy. Greece is suffering for the same reasons much of Eastern Europe is suffering. Its industrial base is third-tier. All this talk about the drachma versus the euro makes it sound like currency is the issue when it is one of a falling rate of profit. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/ options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Sometimes the Bosses Are Stronger
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On Feb 23, 2015, at 7:19 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: Maybe Syriza should have appealed to some other power bloc instead of Eurasia. Like the planet Azimgreb in the Alpha Buzalki solar system. I heard they were flush with grozeks, their currency. I don't know if they would be accepted by European banks, however. There is a lot of scaremongering about a Grexit, and not only by nervous investors. It is often overlooked that the eurozone countries also have an interest in a “managed” Grexit, if it should come to that. While there undeniably is risk attached, the matter isn’t as cut-and-dried as Louis seems to think. If it were, there wouldn’t be a serious debate unfolding within Syriza and among left-wing Greek economists about how to proceed, devoid of mocking references to grozeks, Azimgreb, and the Alpha Buzalki solar system. Critics of the Eurogroup agreement like Costas Lapavitsas are not an unworldly lot, whatever one might think of the merits of their position, which deserves to be treated with respect. Below is how one foreign exchange trader on the other side of the class divide assessed the consequences of a Grexit if there were no agreement this week. Whether there would be mass protests by the Greek masses against a decision to leave the eurozone on the scale imagined by the writer is doubtful, although it must be conceded that the new government has left itself vulnerable by not preparing the masses for the possibility of a forced exit - instead, reinforcing the widespread conviction that a withdrawal from the single currency under any circumstances was unthinkable and would inevitably be chaotic and catastrophic and worse than the status quo for the Greek people. How would Grexit work? By Matt Weller Futures February 20, 2015 […] • The real market fireworks could come if there is no chance of a deal and the Eurogroup and co. make plans for a Grexit. Below are our thoughts on how this could be managed and what to expect: • The Eurogroup makes the announcement that Greece is going to leave the Eurozone; we expect this announcement to come after the US market close sometime after 2200 GMT on Friday. • If this happens, then we would expect the Greeks to announce capital controls on all their banks and announce a number of “bank holidays” early next week, to try and manage the situation. • Over the weekend we would expect a series of discussions between Greece and the Eurozone and another statement before the markets open late on Sunday evening. • This statement could include a timeline for a “managed exit” from the currency bloc including a timescale for re-introducing the drachma, how Greece will pay back its debts (will they be written off?), how the Eurozone will support the Greek economy, etc. • A plan of economic support to help Greece manage this transition. • The ECB is likely to step in to support Greek banks so that they do not immediately collapse. We believe that the Eurogroup and co. will want to manage this process in the smoothest way possible to ensure that excess volatility does not hit the financial markets and disrupt the Eurozone economy. However, the consequences of a Grexit announcement in the coming days could include: • A sharp drop in the EUR, EUR/USD could fall below 1.10 and move back towards parity. • We could see Italian and Spanish bond yields move higher. • A rush to safe havens like US Treasuries, UK Gilts, the yen and the Swiss franc. It could also boost the USD, which is also considered a safe haven, and could weigh heavily on risky assets like global stock markets. • A sharp and devastating sell-off in Greek stocks and Greek bonds (pushing bond yields through the roof). • A sharp increase in the cost of Greek debt insurance. • Protests on the streets in Greece (75% of Greek people wanted to remain in the currency bloc when polled before Greece’s January elections.) • Possible public protests in Germany if Greece’s debts are written off. Full:http://www.futuresmag.com/2015/02/20/how-would-grexit-work _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Sometimes the Bosses Are Stronger
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Good for them. It's still hardly justifies the statement about the negotiating stance of American unions. I joined my first union in 1966, and have been a member of one or another almost continually. The one of which I am currently a member is very good at defending members of the bargaining unit being victimized, but it has been so ineffectual at negotiating contracts that we have lost ground since 1979, when it won recognition. In my experience, unions generally strike only when they're forced to it, and do almost anything and everything to avoid it. The data on union membership and the standards of living indicates that my experience has been far more characteristic of union members than the generalization to which I responded implied. The point is that we do not condemn unions going into negotiations despite the generally muddled and confused nature of the kind of trade unionism we have in the U.S. Certainly, this doesn't mean we are silent in the face of misleadership and betrayal, but it seems reasonable to wait until the evidence is there to be seen and appreciated. As to preemptive dismissals of any mode of struggle, an analogy from the predigital age used to say, a broken clock is always right twice a day. ML _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Sometimes the Bosses Are Stronger
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * The problem with the labor-negotiation analogy, as with so many of Louis's bogus comparisons, is that unions go into negotiations threatening to strike if they can't arrive at a satisfactory deal with the bosses. What was Syriza's equivalent of a strike threat? Did they think they could persuade the Eurocrats of the reasonableness of their position? Appeal to their decency and humanity? Louis writes: If they had anticipated the ferocity of the German response, as well as the willingness of France’s “Socialist” Party to back the Germans, maybe they would have decided not to run for office. But was this response so hard to anticipate? On Feb. 1, I wrote in a post to this newsgroup: Let us take stock. I don’t claim to know how things will turn out, but if I were a pro-austerity Eurocrat or banker, I might calculate as follows: “We have within our power an enormous capacity to make the Greek economy scream even louder than it already is, and to underwrite anti-Syriza forces. Greece is a small country whose default, even exit from the Eurozone, is something we can withstand. It therefore makes more sense to tighten the screws and make an example of Syriza now than pursue some genuine compromise that will only embolden Podemos and others. We can certainly offer Tsipras a few sops in return for his agreement to act as the human face of austerity. But, beyond that, what’s to be gained by compromise?” How was I able to anticipate what Syriza was not? Is it because I'm a soothsayer or a genius? No, it's rather because I'm a Marxist, whose political-theoretical training allows me to penetrate all the illusions and verbiage that surround such events as these to perceive the intractable class realities at the core. Others who call themselves Marxists are apparently unable to do so. The reality in this case is that ensuring the domination of the bankers and more powerful states is the essence of the common currency and the EU; that those, like Varoufakis, who peddle the middle calss illusion of the possibility of a social Europe are deceiving both themselves and the millions who are following them. We didn't have to wait for the outcome of these talks to find this out. Maybe Syriza does have an answer to Greece's plight besides further negotiations. Maybe they are simply buying time in order to implement a secret Plan B. So far, however, I see no evidence of it. And if, as Louis seems to think, no Plan B is possible, what then? Should the Greek people resign themselves in advance to a defeat like the one the Sandinistas suffered, which Louis assures us was also inevitable? Maybe the bosses are just too strong to fight. Jim Creegan _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Sometimes the Bosses Are Stronger
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Here's one. http://www.labornotes.org/2015/02/telecom-strikers-win-limits-outsourcing#sthash.Le8Ffx1W.dpuf There are others. What do you do for a living? T -Original Message- From: Mark Lause via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Sent: Feb 23, 2015 10:28 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Sometimes the Bosses Are Stronger James Creegan wrote, The problem with the labor-negotiation analogy, as with so many of Louis's bogus comparisons, is that unions go into negotiations threatening to strike if they can't arrive at a satisfactory deal with the bosses. Where? When? How can I join such a union? ML _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/thomasfbarton%40earthlink.net _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Sometimes the Bosses Are Stronger
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * James Creegan wrote, The problem with the labor-negotiation analogy, as with so many of Louis's bogus comparisons, is that unions go into negotiations threatening to strike if they can't arrive at a satisfactory deal with the bosses. Where? When? How can I join such a union? ML _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Sometimes the Bosses Are Stronger
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 2/23/15 9:20 PM, James Creegan via Marxism wrote: How was I able to anticipate what Syriza was not? Is it because I'm a soothsayer or a genius? No, it's rather because I'm a Marxist, whose political-theoretical training allows me to penetrate all the illusions and verbiage that surround such events as these to perceive the intractable class realities at the core. Others who call themselves Marxists are apparently unable to do so. Your mastery of Marxism was not powerful enough apparently to answer my question about how Syriza was supposed to forge new alliances that would help them survive an exit from the Eurozone. I have now told you 3 times that what you wrote was ill-considered in light of Crimea's woes. This was a much smaller economy and a people with much stronger ethnic bonds to the Russians but this made no difference. Crimea is a mess right now. Maybe Syriza should have appealed to some other power bloc instead of Eurasia. Like the planet Azimgreb in the Alpha Buzalki solar system. I heard they were flush with grozeks, their currency. I don't know if they would be accepted by European banks, however. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
