Re: [Marxism] TRUMBO Film thoughts
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I apologize if my original response seemed snarky or snotty, my bad. As for Kubrick, I do not have access to the entire article but, unless it is citing some archival materials I am not familiar with (a very likely thing), I think the record on SPARTACUS is clear. I took a film class on Kubrick at RI College and never came across Kubrick expressing interest in much of anything except psychoanalytic theory and anti-consumerist thinking. Kubrick had almost zero control over production, it was Kirk Douglas's show and basically it was a color-by-numbers quick paycheck. In fact, it was such a miserable experience for him that he moved to England to get away from the American studio system shortly thereafter and refused to produce a film unless he had absolute and total control, from script approval to final cut. From thereon, he created what are argued to be his masterpieces, starting with LOLITA, though I do think that PATHS OF GLORY and the other earlier features he made before SPARTACUS were pretty decent. This article is actually pretty informative ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartacus_(film)). As for the history of the Left and Israel, Jacobin magazine ran a great article on this topic some time ago, ( https://www.jacobinmag.com/2013/04/palestine-and-the-left/). Even Noam Chomsky was enchanted by kibbutz living and moved to live on one for a while. I've recently been reading some material by Iriving Howe that includes his argument that everyone should join the Democrats to push a Scandinavian social democratic model and look to Israel as the socialist motherland. On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 6:01 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: > On 11/27/15 5:39 PM, hasc.warrior.s...@gmail.com wrote: > >> The record is pretty clear on SPARTACUS, Trumbo actually had arguments >> with Kirk Douglas over the script orientation, he wanted to keep with >> Fast's original work and talk about McCarthyism but Douglas was on a >> secular Zionist kick and wanted to make it about Israel. There is a Kubrick >> biography by John Baxter that talks about this. Also remember that >> SPARTACUS was filmed in Franco's Spain, so irregardless of Trumbo and Fast >> being Reds, Kirk Douglas was not. >> >> Best regards, >> Andrew Stewart >> > > It has been many years since I saw "Spartacus" but apparently you are > right. > > "Kirk Douglas, a passionate Zionist, wanted the history depicted to > parallel the story of the Jewish people and clashed with screenwriter > Dalton Trumbo, who was more interested in making the film a comment on > modern-day politics and the Cold War." > > full: http://www.classicmoviehub.com/facts-and-trivia/film/spartacus-1960/ > > Apparently it wasn't only Douglas who was a Zionist. So was Kubrick the > director: > http://adaptation.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/03/30/adaptation.apv006.abstract > > The only thing worth considering is that in the 1950s and very early 60s > many people on the left, including Douglas and Kubrick, had not figured out > how shitty Israel was. In fact a guy I know who is very involved with the > Israeli left (his son is a refusenik) came to Israel in the mid-50s from > Detroit where he was in the CP. He was under the impression at the time > that radicals could help turn Israel into a kind of vanguard for radical > change in the Middle East. He was obviously wrong as he would readily admit > today but back then it was a lot easier to be fooled. > -- Best regards, Andrew Stewart _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] TRUMBO Film thoughts
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 11/27/15 5:39 PM, hasc.warrior.s...@gmail.com wrote: The record is pretty clear on SPARTACUS, Trumbo actually had arguments with Kirk Douglas over the script orientation, he wanted to keep with Fast's original work and talk about McCarthyism but Douglas was on a secular Zionist kick and wanted to make it about Israel. There is a Kubrick biography by John Baxter that talks about this. Also remember that SPARTACUS was filmed in Franco's Spain, so irregardless of Trumbo and Fast being Reds, Kirk Douglas was not. Best regards, Andrew Stewart It has been many years since I saw "Spartacus" but apparently you are right. "Kirk Douglas, a passionate Zionist, wanted the history depicted to parallel the story of the Jewish people and clashed with screenwriter Dalton Trumbo, who was more interested in making the film a comment on modern-day politics and the Cold War." full: http://www.classicmoviehub.com/facts-and-trivia/film/spartacus-1960/ Apparently it wasn't only Douglas who was a Zionist. So was Kubrick the director: http://adaptation.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/03/30/adaptation.apv006.abstract The only thing worth considering is that in the 1950s and very early 60s many people on the left, including Douglas and Kubrick, had not figured out how shitty Israel was. In fact a guy I know who is very involved with the Israeli left (his son is a refusenik) came to Israel in the mid-50s from Detroit where he was in the CP. He was under the impression at the time that radicals could help turn Israel into a kind of vanguard for radical change in the Middle East. He was obviously wrong as he would readily admit today but back then it was a lot easier to be fooled. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] TRUMBO Film thoughts
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * The record is pretty clear on SPARTACUS, Trumbo actually had arguments with Kirk Douglas over the script orientation, he wanted to keep with Fast's original work and talk about McCarthyism but Douglas was on a secular Zionist kick and wanted to make it about Israel. There is a Kubrick biography by John Baxter that talks about this. Also remember that SPARTACUS was filmed in Franco's Spain, so irregardless of Trumbo and Fast being Reds, Kirk Douglas was not. Best regards, Andrew Stewart > On Nov 27, 2015, at 4:21 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: > >> On 11/27/15 4:14 PM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote: >> >> I have recently seen the TRUMBO film and agreed that it is a >> fantastic picture. That said, I have yet to see anything that deals >> with the fact that the two films that listed Trumbo in the credits, >> SPARTACUS and EXODUS, are proto-hasbara Zionist propaganda pictures >> that continue to be used to delegitimize Palestinians. Any thoughts? > > > Well, Exodus was certainly hasbara but Spartacus? Maybe you can explain why > on that one. The film is based on a Howard Fast novel. He was a Communist and > the film is obviously sympathetic to a slave revolt. > > But if you want to see a film that incorporates Trumbo's unique perspective, > I recommend "Lonely are the Brave" that is based on a novel by Edward Abbey > called "The Brave Cowboy". Abbey was an anarchist and a deep ecologist. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] TRUMBO Film thoughts
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 11/27/15 4:21 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: But if you want to see a film that incorporates Trumbo's unique perspective, I recommend "Lonely are the Brave" that is based on a novel by Edward Abbey called "The Brave Cowboy". Abbey was an anarchist and a deep ecologist. Plus, you can watch it here for free: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmBm-jT0VJY _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] TRUMBO Film thoughts
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 11/27/15 4:14 PM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote: I have recently seen the TRUMBO film and agreed that it is a fantastic picture. That said, I have yet to see anything that deals with the fact that the two films that listed Trumbo in the credits, SPARTACUS and EXODUS, are proto-hasbara Zionist propaganda pictures that continue to be used to delegitimize Palestinians. Any thoughts? Well, Exodus was certainly hasbara but Spartacus? Maybe you can explain why on that one. The film is based on a Howard Fast novel. He was a Communist and the film is obviously sympathetic to a slave revolt. But if you want to see a film that incorporates Trumbo's unique perspective, I recommend "Lonely are the Brave" that is based on a novel by Edward Abbey called "The Brave Cowboy". Abbey was an anarchist and a deep ecologist. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] TRUMBO Film thoughts
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I have recently seen the TRUMBO film and agreed that it is a fantastic picture. That said, I have yet to see anything that deals with the fact that the two films that listed Trumbo in the credits, SPARTACUS and EXODUS, are proto-hasbara Zionist propaganda pictures that continue to be used to delegitimize Palestinians. Any thoughts? Best regards, Andrew Stewart _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
