Re: [Marxism] Loughner's last close friend said that he ignored TV and talk radio
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Marvin Gandall: Loughner deliberately targeted Giffords, the widely-publicized metaphorical target of white Republicans in Arizona, and there is enough his ramblings which evoke right-wing themes, to suggest that his evidently schizophrenic behaviour can't entirely be disassociated from the social and political climate which nurtured it. No, there is not enough in his ramblings. His obsession with grammar, logic, reality, etc., telling a math professor that 8 is really 16, telling a poetry professor that babies were suicide bombers, stating that the trees were orange is psychotic and has no connection to the Tea Party. The guy was out to lunch, as just about everybody who knew him states. There are people who kill because they overdosed on hate radio. He was not one of them. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Loughner's last close friend said that he ignored TV and talk radio
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Marvin Gandall: Loughner did not overdose on talk radio, but he reportedly did frequent internet sites like Above Top Secret and Zeitgeist which see 9/11, the financial crisis, and other contemporary political issues as conspiracies hatched at the highest levels of government and Wall Street. The conspiracist subculture, which draws a higher proportion of paranoid and otherwise disturbed individuals, combines tropes common to both right and left in contradictory, incoherent, and fantastical ways. The documentary film Zeitgeist is not really Tea Party fare. In fact, mostly sounds like the sort of thing that would be sent out as a premium during a WBAI fund drive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist:_The_Movie The film opens with animated abstract visualizations, film and stock footage, a cartoon and audio quotes about spirituality, followed by clips of war, explosions, and the September 11 attacks. This is followed by the film's title screen. The film's introduction ends with a portion of the late comedian George Carlin's monologue on religion accompanied by an animated cartoon. Part I, entitled The Greatest Story Ever Sold, questions religions as being god-given stories, arguing that the Christian religion specifically is mainly derived from other religions, astronomical facts, astrological myths and traditions, which in turn were derived from or shared elements with others. In furtherance of the Jesus myth hypothesis, this part argues that the historical Jesus is a literary and astrological hybrid, nurtured politically. The 9/11 attacks are the subject of Part II of the film. Part II, entitled All the World's a Stage, uses integral footage of several 9/11 conspiracy theory films to claim that the September 11 attacks were either orchestrated or allowed to happen by elements within the United States government in order to generate mass fear, initiate and justify the War on Terror, provide a pretext for the curtailment of civil liberties, and produce economic gain. These claims include that the US government had advance knowledge about the attacks, the response of the military deliberately let the planes reach their targets, and the World Trade Center buildings 1, 2, and 7 underwent a controlled demolition. In a March 17, 2009 New York Times article, Alan Feuer reported that Peter Joseph had indicated that he had moved away from his opinion on whether the September 11 attacks were an inside job perpetrated by the U.S. government.[7] Peter Joseph later stated that his stance on 9/11 had not changed.[11] The United States Government's income tax is claimed to be unconstitutional. Part III, entitled Don't Mind the Men Behind the Curtain, argues that three wars of the United States during the twentieth century were waged purely for economic gain by what the film refers to as international bankers. The film alleges that certain events were engineered as excuses to enter into war including the sinking of the RMS Lusitania, the Attack on Pearl Harbor, and the Gulf of Tonkin Incident. Same thing with abovetopsecret.com: AboveTopSecret.com is the Internet's largest and most popular discussion board community dedicated to the intelligent exchange of ideas and debate on a wide range of alternative topics such as conspiracies, UFO's, paranormal, secret societies, political scandals, new world order, terrorism, and dozens of related topics with a diverse mix of users from all over the world. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Loughner's last close friend said that he ignored TV and talk radio
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 8:28 AM, dave x dave...@gmail.com wrote: The context here is obvious - first we learn he was heavily into (probably violent) online video games and now according to this latest article by Louis we learn he had abandoned his sax and was into heavy metal music! What more do we need to know? Somebody call Tipper! Seriously though, Louis if you want to know what alienated youth do today that probably describes a large chunk of them. The difference with Loughner being that he was also a paranoid schizophrenic. I also can't say I know any alienated youth who are into Glenn Beck, Palin or right wing talk radio (in fact I find the notion almost laughable). This is in my experience mostly a problem for alienated 60+ year olds and conservative Christians which Loughner obviously was not. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Loughner's last close friend said that he ignored TV and talk radio
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I don't know the extent to which I'd call them particularly tea party assumptions--these seem to me the kind of dumbest version of neoconservativism. ...but, yes, I hear it all the time and from most of the students...things like the private sector works better than the public sector...government is anti-business...media is liberal...war is good for the economy...race is a dead issue...etc. I think it's just because they're not really hearing much else. They figure it out pretty well, if they invest some thought in it. But when the assumptions are presented to them as self-evident truths, they tend not to invest much in thinking about them ML Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Loughner's last close friend said that he ignored TV and talk radio
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I have to say I am shocked to hear that reactionary and confused ideas are utterly pervasive in our society - still, I am willing to bet if we did a venn diagram of Palin fans and fans of death metal the intersection would be vanishingly low. Jon Stewart on the other hand... We will just have to hope that none of these confused alienated young people get the notion that democratic party pols might be something other than a bulwark against tea party reaction and an expression of their own best interest. The results might be tragic. On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:39 AM, Mark Lause markala...@gmail.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I don't know the extent to which I'd call them particularly tea party assumptions--these seem to me the kind of dumbest version of neoconservativism. ...but, yes, I hear it all the time and from most of the students...things like the private sector works better than the public sector...government is anti-business...media is liberal...war is good for the economy...race is a dead issue...etc. I think it's just because they're not really hearing much else. They figure it out pretty well, if they invest some thought in it. But when the assumptions are presented to them as self-evident truths, they tend not to invest much in thinking about them ML Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/dave.xx%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Loughner's last close friend said that he ignored TV and talk radio
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 2:58 PM, dave x dave...@gmail.com wrote: I am willing to bet if we did a venn diagram of Palin fans and fans of death metal the intersection would be vanishingly low. I don't know - in my experience, a lot of military guys (specifically the white ones in the combat arms) go for the loud, thrash-y stuff. -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Loughner's last close friend said that he ignored TV and talk radio
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Granted. It helps with the stress, PTSD, etc. But Loughner wasn't in the military. On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Joseph Catron jncat...@gmail.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 2:58 PM, dave x dave...@gmail.com wrote: I am willing to bet if we did a venn diagram of Palin fans and fans of death metal the intersection would be vanishingly low. I don't know - in my experience, a lot of military guys (specifically the white ones in the combat arms) go for the loud, thrash-y stuff. -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/dave.xx%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Loughner's last close friend said that he ignored TV and talk radio
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == You do get the occasional soldier like that, but most are among the most thoughtful and politically reliable people I teach. It's always a treat watching the look on a veteran's face as one of the patriotic frat boys rambles on about how we (that is other people) need to defend national honor. ML Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Loughner's last close friend said that he ignored TV and talk radio
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == It's hard to know what to make of this interview. This kid hasn't talked to Loughner in two years (for which he berates himself). Having taught American undergraduates for 20 years (mainly white and middle class), I can testify that the political views of normal 20-year-olds can be quite inchoate and malleable; these views can change dramatically in a matter of months, often in confused and contradictory ways. There's no denying that Loughner is mentally ill, but it seems possible that we will discover, when all the evidence is available, that his anger toward Giffords may have stemmed from his sense that government (represented by Giffords) and perhaps other institutions (universities?) attempt to dominate and control people, including their very thoughts. He didn't shoot Giffords randomly or without premeditation, after all. Now, the idea that government tries to dominate people is not of course an exclusively right-wing sensibility. It's a central tenet of Marxism. Recall that Loughner's favorite books include “Animal Farm,” “Brave New World,” “Fahrenheit 451,” “One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest,” and “The Communist Manifesto” in addition to Ayn Rand's We, the Living. (Would we be surprised to find Herman Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent on his list?) So while Loughner clearly does not possess a coherent political ideology, he was obviously not insulated from political ideas, however much his mind may have distorted these. These ideas, moreover, seem to include left- as well as right-wing notions about the evils of government. Perhaps we'll learn later on that Loughner was more caught up in right-wing ideas than is evident now. Of course, until we know more, this is all just so much speculation. On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 1:35 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/jared-loughner-shooting-at-world-12597553 Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/jgoodwin.nyu%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Loughner's last close friend said that he ignored TV and talk radio
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == While there is no clear indication that Loughner was directly influenced by right-wing ideology - it still remains to be seen whether he was or wasn't - there seems little doubt, based on his emails and the testimony of those who knew him, that his rage, confusion, incoherence, virulent misogyny, attraction to guns and the military, dark suicidal thoughts, and immersion in a white community feeling itself under threat from an alien race(s), all fit the profile of the authoritarian personality described by Adorno and others which is typically attracted to right wing causes. I don't believe anyone has gone so far as to describe him as schizophrenic. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Loughner's last close friend said that he ignored TV and talk radio
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == While there is no clear indication that Loughner was directly influenced by right-wing ideology - it still remains to be seen whether he was or wasn't - there seems little doubt, based on his emails and the testimony of those who knew him, that his rage, confusion, incoherence, virulent misogyny, attraction to guns and the military, dark suicidal thoughts, and immersion in a white community feeling itself under threat from an alien race(s), all fit the profile of the authoritarian personality described by Adorno and others which is typically attracted to right wing causes. I don't believe anyone has gone so far as to describe him as schizophrenic. Well, I describe him as schizophrenic based on the evidence. So does the psychiatrist interviewed in Salon.com. I think people have to think less in terms of Adorno than the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM). Diagnostic Criteria for Schizophrenia A. Characteristic symptoms: Two (or more) of the following, each present for a significant portion of time during a 1-month period (or less if successfully treated): * delusions * hallucinations * disorganized speech (e.g., frequent derailment or incoherence) * grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior * negative symptoms, i.e., affective flattening, alogia, or avolition Note: Only one Criterion A symptom is required if delusions are bizarre or hallucinations consist of a voice keeping up a running commentary on the person's behavior or thoughts, or two or more voices conversing with each other. B. Social/occupational dysfunction: For a significant portion of the time since the onset of the disturbance, one or more major areas of functioning such as work, interpersonal relations, or self-care are markedly below the level achieved prior to the onset (or when the onset is in childhood or adolescence, failure to achieve expected level of interpersonal, academic, or occupational achievement). Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Loughner's last close friend said that he ignored TV and talk radio
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == uh-huh, and we were different from them in what ways at age 20 back in circa 68-73 or whenever? On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Jeff Goodwin jgoodwin@gmail.comwrote: Havingtaught American undergraduates for 20 years (mainly white and middle class), I can testify that the political views of normal 20-year-olds can be quite inchoate and malleable; these views can change dramatically in a matter of months, often in confused and contradictory ways. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Loughner's last close friend said that he ignored TV and talk radio
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I, for one, have every appreciation for your expertise in these problems. I spent time myself tutoring schizophrenics in a half-way house, and found them often very volatile. Gaining any real trust on any level was hard to achieve and remarkably easy to lose. But if we're all agreed that Loughner is a disturbed person, the agreement takes us no closer to understanding why he would turn to violence in a certain time and space and circumstance Put in an entirely different context, nobody really doubts that Charles Guiteau, the assassin of President James A. Garfield was clearly disturbed, but that doesn't explain why did what he did when he did it Specifically, Guiteau couldn't get a civil service job and was disturbed enough to take it all very personally. However, that doesn't explain what created his sense that killing Garfield was justifiable. For that, you have to look at the context beyond the illness But how important this or that feature of the context might be is really beyond what any of us can know or should be expected to know at this point. ML Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Loughner's last close friend said that he ignored TV and talk radio
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 21:22:49 -0500 Mark Lause markala...@gmail.com wrote: But if we're all agreed that Loughner is a disturbed person, the agreement takes us no closer to understanding why he would turn to violence in a certain time and space and circumstance Right. Why did Hurricane Katrina happen in 2005 and not 2004? Why did it hit New Orleans rather than Tampa? There are 'why' questions that have no answers, apart from very specific and path-dependent contingencies of the time and place and, in Loughner's case, person. -- -- Michael J. Smith m...@smithbowen.net http://stopmebeforeivoteagain.org http://www.cars-suck.org http://fakesprogress.blogspot.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Loughner's last close friend said that he ignored TV and talk radio
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Mark Lause: I spent time myself tutoring schizophrenics in a half-way house, and found them often very volatile. Gaining any real trust on any level was hard to achieve and remarkably easy to lose. But if we're all agreed that Loughner is a disturbed person, the agreement takes us no closer to understanding why he would turn to violence in a certain time and space and circumstance I would say that if there was a shred of evidence connecting him with the Tea Party, then I would say that could go along with the schema constructed by Gary Younge, Tom Hayden, Paul Krugman and Lenin's Tomb. But I would say that people who are leaning in that direction better step back from the precipice unless they want to appear foolish. This latest item I posted from the NYT that clarified his anti-abortion views is a wake-up call: He said that the class had been talking about abortion, which made him think of death, which made him think of suicide bombers, which made him think of babies as suicide bombers. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Loughner's last close friend said that he ignored TV and talk radio
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 2011-01-12, at 6:51 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: ...I describe him as schizophrenic based on the evidence. So does the psychiatrist interviewed in Salon.com. So does another psychiatrist interviewed on CNN, but she is not unwilling to take the political context into account: BLITZER: So what makes a schizophrenic, even a paranoid schizophrenic, become dangerous? LIPMAN: It isn't even a paranoid schizophrenic, but it's especially a paranoid schizophrenic. Schizophrenics as a whole are not dangerous. A psychopath would be more dangerous. But a paranoid is afraid more than anything else, Wolf, that someone is out to get them. BLITZER: Are they hearing things? Are people talking to them in their brains? LIPMAN: Some have hallucinations and some have delusions. But the key here and the connection to Giffords is that if someone believes that the government is out to get them in a delusional way, that it's filling their mind and running through their mind, and around them is rhetoric which is hostile and chaotic, research shows that it makes the symptoms worse, that because they are paranoid and believe that people are out to get them, they believe in the threat, and in that case they act on it. And that's what I believe. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1101/11/sitroom.01.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Loughner's last close friend said that he ignored TV and talk radio
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 18:51:07 -0500 Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: I think people have to think less in terms of Adorno than the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM). Fair enough. But the dry prose of the DSM omits a non-technical, though vivid, expression that practitioners in this business use among themselves: word salad. It refers to a volubility clearly driven by some strong inner need, where the formal structures of language remain intact but what is being said just makes no sense -- colorless green ideas sleep furiously, to borrow a phrase from the great Noam. There are people who really talk like that. Their cognitive capacity is profoundly disrupted, to a degree that's hard to imagine unless you've known a few. Loughner clearly belongs to this category. Normally I avoid quoting the New York Times, except by way of mockery, but they did quote some psychiatrist a day or two ago, who noted, in a nice turn of phrase, that paranoid schizophrenics pick up on the grand themes of the culture vel sim. Loughner seems to have done some of that, but not as much as one might expect. His reading list is a miscellaneous, attitudinizing adolescent grab-bag. His preoccupation with grammar is actually quite original. The null hypothesis is that he went after Giffords because she was *his* Congresscritter. A senator or governor would have been a much better target, and a president best of all, of course, but they're not so easy to get to, these days. Thought experiment: if Loughner's congresscritter had been a right-wing Republican rather than a right-wing Democrat, would s/he have been at less risk? Anybody out there who feels they can confidently answer this question, either way? -- -- Michael J. Smith m...@smithbowen.net http://stopmebeforeivoteagain.org http://www.cars-suck.org http://fakesprogress.blogspot.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Loughner's last close friend said that he ignored TV and talk radio
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I don't think anybody has actually suggested that Loughner was part of a secret tea party cabal, did they? Admittedly, I've not followed this discussion that closely Ah, here comes Michael Smith m...@smithbowen.net comparing human behavior--individual human behavior, no less--to natural disasters: Why did Hurricane Katrina happen in 2005 and not 2004? Why did it hit New Orleans rather than Tampa? There are 'why' questions that have no answers, apart from very specific and path-dependent contingencies of the time and place and, in Loughner's case, person. ...and Thought experiment: if Loughner's congresscritter had been a right-wing Republican rather than a right-wing Democrat, would s/he have been at less risk? Anybody out there who feels they can confidently answer this question, either way? Brilliantly persuasive shitpersuasive that I should go do something useful. ML Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Loughner's last close friend said that he ignored TV and talk radio
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Mark Lause: I don't think anybody has actually suggested that Loughner was part of a secret tea party cabal, did they? Admittedly, I've not followed this discussion that closely What I am talking about is communications, either in print or electronic, that expressed an affinity with the Tea Party. Not membership. Or corroboration from his friends that he was a birther or something like that. I think that efforts to turn his ruminations on grammar and currency into evidence that he was a Sarah Palin follower are far outweighed by the sheer lunacy of his overall observed behavior. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Loughner's last close friend said that he ignored TV and talk radio
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 2011-01-12, at 9:55 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: ...if someone stabbed a stranger on the street because Jesus commanded him to, we wouldn't connect this act to Christianity. A complete stranger, no. The act would be incomprehensible. It would have no evident relationship to Christianity. But if the target were an abortion provider, we might well say that the delusions which triggered the murderous act were shaped by his fundamentalist Protestant or Catholic milieu, and that the target was not a random stranger on the street, an unfortunate victim of a deranged mind. This is what I understood the psychiatrist on CNN to be saying. Loughner deliberately targeted Giffords, the widely-publicized metaphorical target of white Republicans in Arizona, and there is enough his ramblings which evoke right-wing themes, to suggest that his evidently schizophrenic behaviour can't entirely be disassociated from the social and political climate which nurtured it. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Loughner's last close friend said that he ignored TV and talk radio
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 22:23:38 -0500 Mark Lause markala...@gmail.com wrote: Ah, here comes Michael Smith m...@smithbowen.net comparing human behavior--individual human behavior, no less--to natural disasters: You missed the point, Mark. Although of course weird human behavior is a natural disaster in every sense of the term. Brilliantly persuasive shitpersuasive that I should go do something useful. I strongly encourage it. -- -- Michael J. Smith m...@smithbowen.net http://stopmebeforeivoteagain.org http://www.cars-suck.org http://fakesprogress.blogspot.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
