Re: [MBZ] 1882 300 td sls troubles and finally repairs!!

2014-04-24 Thread Dan Penoff
7 to 1 split effective June 9th, I believe.

Life is good.

Dan AAPL shareholder since 1997

Sent from my iPad

 On Apr 24, 2014, at 1:41 AM, Rick Hawkins Java macj...@aol.com wrote:
 
 Folks,
 
 Today my helper and i spent a couple of hours working on my sls on the 300TD.
 
 First we siphoned the fluid out of the reservoir. Then we removed and washed 
 the crud out of it and dried it thoroughly.
 
 We jacked the car way up with a floor jack on each side and backed the jacks 
 up with jack stands and removed the spheres. I did the screwdriver test and 
 the screwdriver goes all the way to the back of the unit on the old ones and 
 on the new ones, it stops after about an inch ... gently on the new.
 
 I installed the new ones and the high pressure line wouldn't screw in on the 
 driver' side. I removed the sphere and the threads were obviously buggered up.
 
 I had a cheap $9 HF tap  die set that had a 1/4 inch, i think, pipe tap. I  
 tried it in one of the old units and it fit, so i chased the threads easily 
 in the new one. I reinstalled it and it went in with little difficulty. We 
 started up and tested for leaks and we were golden.
 
 So, i drove the car home and it now rides like an er ... mercedes, not like a 
 buckboard wagon. After i parked it, even after about 4 or 5 hours the car 
 REMAINED AT DRIVING HEIGHT and didn't seem to be squatting down as it has 
 been.
 
 I didn't do any tests for up and down, but i suspect all is well.
 
 So, i conclude that the spheres are responsible for more than just the ride 
 quality.
 
 The sls control valve seems to be weeping a very little bit. I wiped it down 
 and i'll watch it. If any of you have a rebuildable sls control valve for a 
 123, i'll buy it, just so i can build one and then just do a swap. It looks 
 like a bear to remove ... lots of small high pressure steel lines.
 
 So that was all good. Then i came home and noticed that AAPL (Apple stock) 
 went down a couple of $$ but then in after hours trading it jumped up $44 or 
 so. I read that they announced some results and more importantly, that they 
 are going to do a $30 billion stock buy back and also split the stock 7/1 or 
 however you write that  crazy investor news.
 
 
 thanks,
 
 xx rick
 Rick Hawkins
 
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Re: [MBZ] thick sls troubles

2014-04-24 Thread Hendrik and Fay

You meant to say rise from the ground ;-)

Hendrik
who is just messing with ya.backward folk

On 23/04/14 10:57, Craig wrote:

On Wed, 23 Apr 2014 08:53:28 +0930 Hendrik and Fay heni...@gmail.com
wrote:


who is in autumn not spring (actually you lot call it fall, why don't
you call spring rise? Ahh that's right you operate in systems where
nothing makes sense:-D )

Now we know you Aussies are from another planet. In the Spring, plants
spring from the ground. In the Fall, leaves fall to the ground. Simple.
Logical.


Craig



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Re: [MBZ] 123 fog lights

2014-04-24 Thread Curt Raymond
I think yours are aftermarket because I find it impossible to believe that 
every car I've seen hasn't got them. Doesn't it seem weird to you that all the 
ones I've seen on cars spanning the whole generation are replaceable bulb?

We aren't talking about euro lights all this time are we? I've never had any 
experience with them...

The 116 car is totally different, we can easily discount that.

-Curt

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 03:45:32 + (UTC)
From: roger...@comcast.net
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 123 fog lights
Message-ID:
    273057448.31842058.1398311132031.javamail.r...@comcast.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Kaleb, 
I have the originals in my 1983 300D plus a spare set I purchased on eBay about 
12 years ago. Both are sealed beam. What makes you think it is aftermarket? 
Maybe it's the difference between US and Euro like the headlights on a 1980 
300SD that people debate over which one looks best or gives the best 
visibility. 
Best Wishes, 
Roger 
Roger Hale 
Dinnerware Classics, Inc. 
Monroe, Ga. 
770-267-0850 
www.dinnerwareclassics.com (new) 
www.southernnightsantiques.com (antique) 
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Re: [MBZ] 1882 300 td sls troubles and finally repairs!!

2014-04-24 Thread WILTON

ATTABOY!

Wilt

- Original Message - 
From: Rick Hawkins Java macj...@aol.com

To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 1:41 AM
Subject: [MBZ] 1882 300 td sls troubles and finally repairs!!



Folks,

Today my helper and i spent a couple of hours working on my sls on the 
300TD.


First we siphoned the fluid out of the reservoir. Then we removed and 
washed the crud out of it and dried it thoroughly.


We jacked the car way up with a floor jack on each side and backed the 
jacks up with jack stands and removed the spheres. I did the  screwdriver 
test and the screwdriver goes all the way to the back of  the unit on the 
old ones and on the new ones, it stops after about an  inch ... gently on 
the new.


I installed the new ones and the high pressure line wouldn't screw in  on 
the driver' side. I removed the sphere and the threads were  obviously 
buggered up.


I had a cheap $9 HF tap  die set that had a 1/4 inch, i think, pipe  tap. 
I  tried it in one of the old units and it fit, so i chased the  threads 
easily in the new one. I reinstalled it and it went in with  little 
difficulty. We started up and tested for leaks and we were  golden.


So, i drove the car home and it now rides like an er ... mercedes, not 
like a buckboard wagon. After i parked it, even after about 4 or 5  hours 
the car REMAINED AT DRIVING HEIGHT and didn't seem to be  squatting down 
as it has been.


I didn't do any tests for up and down, but i suspect all is well.

So, i conclude that the spheres are responsible for more than just the 
ride quality.


The sls control valve seems to be weeping a very little bit. I wiped  it 
down and i'll watch it. If any of you have a rebuildable sls  control 
valve for a 123, i'll buy it, just so i can build one and then  just do a 
swap. It looks like a bear to remove ... lots of small high  pressure 
steel lines.


So that was all good. Then i came home and noticed that AAPL (Apple 
stock) went down a couple of $$ but then in after hours trading it  jumped 
up $44 or so. I read that they announced some results and more 
importantly, that they are going to do a $30 billion stock buy back  and 
also split the stock 7/1 or however you write that  crazy  investor 
news.



thanks,

xx rick
Rick Hawkins

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Re: [MBZ] sls troubles

2014-04-24 Thread Fmiser
 Andrew wrote:
 
 Is it easy to r/r the sls valve as well?

Yes.

The hardest or riskiest part is the lines/pipes.  Like brake lines,
they require the nut to spin on the line so rust and corrosion can
interfere.

A couple bolts hold the valve body to the car.

Oh, and the link to the anti-sway bar has to be disconnected.

If rust and corrosion _don't_ get in your way, it should take about
as long to flush and bleed the system as it does to replace the
valve.  Based on my experience.

I rebuilt mine using o-ring I found at NAPA to solve a shaft seal
leak.

If it's not holding pressure, it will be harder to deal with as
those ports seal are metal-on-metal.  Maybe honing the valve plate
flat?  I don't know as I didn't have to deal with it. *smiles*

--   Philip

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Re: [MBZ] sls troubles

2014-04-24 Thread Fmiser
   Andrew Strasfogel wrote:
  
   So with my symptoms (bouncy rear, inability to raise rear of
   the car under load), how likely is it that my valve is
   defective?

I strongly suspect you have two separate issues.  But if you want
the system to function as original, then the components have to be
original spec.  Start by putting in the correct springs.  Then
adjust for correct position.  Then troubleshoot.

If you are just trying to resolve the under-damping that MD is
complaining about, then there is a lot more guesswork.  As I
understand the system, there is _no_ way the valve could be
responsible for damping as the damping is a function of fluid
moving from the struts to the accumulators.  If damping is the
problem, then 

 Andrew wrote:
 
 ...the tech adjusted the valve to lower the car down to 14.5
 and then we did the test, with the engine running.  It NEVER
 budged from its sunken state until the two beefy techs got off of
 the tailgate.

Remind me - the suspension lifted a load fine prior to the
adjustment?  If so, the post-adjustment symptom could be valve, but
may be a consequence of targeting factory ride height with
over-strong springs.

I don't have burly techs hanging around to load the car, so I
disconnect the link to the anti-sway bar and manually move the
valve to see that it's lifting and dumping right.

--  Philip

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Re: [MBZ] 123 fog lights

2014-04-24 Thread Fmiser
  Curt Raymond wrote:
 
  Anybody else want to weigh in on this? I completely sure none
  of my 123 cars has had sealed beam lights, theres a bulb held
  in by a little wire clippy.

I have a few I can check - but as I have never messed with them I
presumed they were sealed beam.  They mount and adjust like a
sealed beam...

So I just took my Yankee screwdriver out at pulled one apart.  The
one I picked had broken glass, but after opening it up, it clearly
uses an H3 lamp.  So the reflector and lens seem to be bonded
together, but the actual light source (lamp) is a replaceable H3
and thus is _not_ a sealed beam.

I'm too lazy to check the others.

  I'll take a picture when I get home
  tonight. My '78 240D has clear driving lights my '83 240D had
  yellow. My wagon had clear but I converted to yellow because I
  like the look of them. I was going to convert the '78 but
  Dwight talked me out of it. His CD has one of the yellow ones
  from my '83 240D.

I think the lenses and reflectors on both the clear and yellow are
for fog lights.  At least all the ones I have here are.  I have
thought about converting them to driving lights.

  Thats what sealed beam means right? Where the bulb is sealed
  into the lens, like the headlight...

Yes.  Sealed beam means there is no glass envelope around just
the filament (like the H3 lamp has).  The entire reflector and lens
are the envelope which has oxygen removed so the filament won't
burn.

 Gerry wrote:
 
 I wonder if there are both sealed beam and bulb in housing lamps
 by different manufacturers that fit the standard 123
 headlight/fog light assembly?

I guess that's possible. 

--   Philip

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Re: [MBZ] 123 fog lights

2014-04-24 Thread Mitch Haley

Fmiser wrote:


Gerry wrote:

I wonder if there are both sealed beam and bulb in housing lamps
by different manufacturers that fit the standard 123
headlight/fog light assembly?


I guess that's possible. 


I thought the headlamps were standard 7 round DOT types, and the fog lamps were 
interchangeable with the 5 3/4 DOT headlamps you'd find on a W116 or R107?
I suspect I'd put W116 style fog lights under the bumper and driving lights in 
the fog light sockets if I had a W123.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] 123 fog lights

2014-04-24 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
I have seen a couple of cars with sealed beam dogs but they were aftermarket I 
am pretty sure

Sent from my iPhone

 On Apr 23, 2014, at 10:00 PM, arche...@embarqmail.com 
 arche...@embarqmail.com wrote:
 
 They're both installed in the car. I'll take a pic and post it as soon as I 
 find replacements.
 Gerry
 
 On 4/23/2014 8:56 PM, Curt Raymond wrote:
 I'm forced to admit that possibility...
 Strange that I've only seen the bulb type.
 
 Can you take a pic of the sealed beam?
 
 -Curt
 
 Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 17:13:33 -0400
 From: arche...@embarqmail.com arche...@embarqmail.com
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] 123 fog lights
 Message-ID: 53582cfd.9010...@embarqmail.com
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
 
 I wonder if there are both sealed beam and bulb in housing lamps by
 different manufacturers that fit the standard 123 headlight/fog light
 assembly?
 Gerry
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Re: [MBZ] 123 fog lights

2014-04-24 Thread Meade Dillon
I've only owned a single 123 car, now sold, but it had sealed beam fog
lights.

Max Dillon,
Charleston SC
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Re: [MBZ] 123 fog lights

2014-04-24 Thread Randy Bennell

20 posts (now 21 I guess) and we are no further ahead

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Re: [MBZ] sls troubles

2014-04-24 Thread Rich Thomas

Here you go

http://click.harborfreightemail.com/?qs=de3a1ed369d61c56f2afbfabe0671bbf517133d1b8fb51843bdb750fe9a8b241f4e691157d1513fc

--R



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Re: [MBZ] 123 fog lights

2014-04-24 Thread WILTON

Y'all watch out; I may hafta come up with another silly Sondy Tale.  ;)

Wilt

- Original Message - 
From: Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca

To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 123 fog lights



20 posts (now 21 I guess) and we are no further ahead

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Re: [MBZ] sls troubles

2014-04-24 Thread Rich Thomas

With coupon it is actually only $80

Coupons:

http://widgets.harborfreight.com/wswidgets/common/displayCoupon.do?main=truehdr=magweek=1414campaign=apage=1414a_lander.htmlcust=60272269278keycode=1020utm_medium=emailutm_campaign=1714butm_source=1020


On 4/24/14 6:25 PM, Rich Thomas wrote:

Here you go

http://click.harborfreightemail.com/?qs=de3a1ed369d61c56f2afbfabe0671bbf517133d1b8fb51843bdb750fe9a8b241f4e691157d1513fc 



--R



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Re: [MBZ] sls troubles

2014-04-24 Thread Rich Thomas

And jackstands for $20

$100 (plus whatever usurious tax you have to pay there) and yer outfitted

--R


On 4/24/14 6:25 PM, Rich Thomas wrote:

Here you go

http://click.harborfreightemail.com/?qs=de3a1ed369d61c56f2afbfabe0671bbf517133d1b8fb51843bdb750fe9a8b241f4e691157d1513fc 



--R



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[MBZ] Toasty SLS

2014-04-24 Thread Hendrik and Fay

http://www.wormser-zeitung.de/lokales/polizei/unfall-auf-der-a61-bei-worms-explosion-unter-motorhaube-eines-sportwagens-fahrer-verliert-kontrolle_14078553.htm
Wonder what let go? Turbo?

Hendrik
who has a fire extinguisher under the seat
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Re: [MBZ] 123 fog lights

2014-04-24 Thread Curt Raymond
I'm waiting for a picture of a sealed beam foglight from a 123 car. If 
somebodys got one I'd also like the part number from it.

This has been bugging me all day...

-Curt

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 18:26:07 -0400
From: WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 123 fog lights
Message-ID: E494608AD7DF4C2295D07DE3B6FA14C0@wiltonPC
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
    reply-type=response

Y'all watch out; I may hafta come up with another silly Sondy Tale.  ;)

Wilt

- Original Message - 
From: Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 123 fog lights


 20 posts (now 21 I guess) and we are no further ahead
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Re: [MBZ] Toasty SLS

2014-04-24 Thread Craig
On Fri, 25 Apr 2014 09:06:19 +0930 Hendrik and Fay heni...@gmail.com
wrote:

 http://www.wormser-zeitung.de/lokales/polizei/unfall-auf-der-a61-bei-worms-explosion-unter-motorhaube-eines-sportwagens-fahrer-verliert-kontrolle_14078553.htm


In (somewhat stilted) English, that is:


police 04/23/2014
Accident on the A61 near Worms: explosion under the bonnet of a sports
car - driver loses control From John idols

Without warning, while driving on the A61 exploded on Wednesday
afternoon, a component under the hood, the sports car immediately caught
fire, which is why the driver lost control of the vehicle and crashed in
the area of ​​exit Worms North southbound into the barriers .

The 53- year-old driver from the Mannheim area was able to free himself
from the vehicle still, he suffered, according to the highway patrol Gau-
Bickelheim only bruises by the belt. The super sports car Mercedes SLS,
however, was ablaze and burned out completely. The replacement value of
this vehicle with gull-wing doors and 591 hp is 225,000 EUR without extra
equipment.

How exactly did this technical defect, which is actually explodes, can
not say out loud highway patrol. However, it was clear that the driver
was not to blame. Several witnesses had confirmed that there was suddenly
a loud bang and was immediately seen a blue cloud of smoke. This suggests
that motor oil has ignited.

Driver not too fast

The witnesses had also testified that the man was not going too fast. The
case for the highway patrol at least the end of it. The driver or owner
of the very rare super sports car, however, is the cause surely want to
get to the bottom.

After the explosion, apparently everything went very quickly. Instant
burst of traffic along the highway towards the south, there had been
formed by the brightly burning car a tremendous heat and thick smoke.
In both lanes the vehicles were.

Another accident in traffic

At the end of this jam then yet another accident occurred. The driver of
a 7.5-ton truck had obviously not noticed that the vehicles had come to a
halt in front of him and drove on a tractor-trailer on. Here, the cab of
the truck was considerably smaller pressed, of the 51 -year-old driver
was taken to a hospital with bodily injuries. He was not in danger,
according to police. Here, the witnesses had reported that the 7.5-tonner
was unrestrained ascended to the heavy truck, so the highway patrol.



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Re: [MBZ] sls troubles

2014-04-24 Thread MG

First as to checking the pump pressure look up 35-530 in the manual.

Second a pump may be pumping fluid and the valve can return it to 
the tank without there being very much pressure since when the 
valve is set to the normal level the fluid returns to the tank 
without being subject to any restriction in the valve. It is only 
when the valve is set to fill that the return port is closed off 
and the pump must now supply fluid at as high a pressure as is 
necessary to lift the vehicle back to a level position up to a 
pressure of 130-180 bar. Once the vehicle is at the correct level 
the fill valve is closed off keeping the pressure in the strut 
part of the system constant and at the same time opening the 
return valve to route the fluid which the pump is producing back 
to the tank at almost no pressure. This is to allow the power 
that the engine needs to pump the fluid at high pressure to be 
used for pushing the vehicle down the road and save fuel as well 
as to reduce the temp of the pump and fluid. When the vehicle 
gets unloaded the valve changes to lower, where both the strut 
and return valves are open letting the vehicle lower to the 
normal ride height. All that while the pump is still pumping 
fluid but at the lowest pressure required only for circulation.

Check out 35-501 for the full working description.

So just because a pump is capable of pushing fluid at say 5 lbs 
just to keep it circulating and the temp in the pump at a safe 
level, does not mean it is able to pump that fluid up to the 
pressure required to lift the vehicle and load up to where it 
needs to be. The only way to find that out is to lift the back of 
the vehicle by turning the valve to the fill position and watch 
the back rise while watching the connected gauge to see how much 
pressure the pump is capable of producing. If it does 130 bar 
it's good to go.


Manfred


Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 23:37:11 -0400
From: Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net
Subject: Re: [MBZ] sls troubles


Andrew Strasfogel wrote:
  Is there a way to test the pump for sufficient pressure? 
Is this even
  plausible?  It doesn't leak and the fluid circulates.  So 
how is there a

  problem?

If fluid is being returned to the filter under the reservoir cap, 
I would feel
safe in concluding that the pump is forcing fluid through the 
valve, and

therefore the pump isn't the problem.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] 123 fog lights

2014-04-24 Thread rogerhga
Well guysI just went and looked at my fog lights on my 83 300D. The fog 
bulbs appear to be sealed beam just like the hi/lo headlights in the fitting 
beside them. The fog bulbs have Bosch Germany embossed in the glass in the 
middle of them. The fixtures that the bulbs sit in have Bosch sticker on the 
back of them. But the fogs are definitely sealed beam, not some replaceable 
bulb like are in my other newer vehicles. Now I purchased the 83 300D from a 
young Georgia Tech grad whose mother gave it to him after inheriting it from 
her father who was the original purchaser in South Carolina. The young man told 
me he would not change anything on the car because he was afraid his mother 
would be mad at him. Hence, the car was all original with 165,000 miles on it 
when I purchased it about 18 years ago. 
Anyway, I don't think they are aftermarket. If I care enough about this issue, 
I may get into my garage attic and dig out my backup set and see what they are, 
but as memory serves, they are identical to the set currently on the car. 
Just how I see it, your visions my differ... 
Best Wishes, 
Roger 
Roger Hale 
Dinnerware Classics, Inc. 
Monroe, Ga. 
770-267-0850 
www.dinnerwareclassics.com (new) 
www.southernnightsantiques.com (antique) 

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[MBZ] Driveshaft fixt.

2014-04-24 Thread Frederick Moir
King sexy has had delivered to me a small boot for the drive-shaft for my 300TD.
Speedy and accurate, plus sexy, who could ask for more?
All assembled ready for the morn and crawl under the car time.
Center bearing and mount, boot thingy and those rubberoid dognuts fore and aft.
Now waiting for the required hose to correct the crossed fuel lines, so that it 
doesn't run out of fuel at a quarter tank.
Looking at my list, it may be less expensive to jack up the hubcaps and slide 
in a newer car!

 

Fred Moir 
Lynn MA 
Diesel preferred.
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Re: [MBZ] 1882 300 td sls troubles and finally repairs!!

2014-04-24 Thread Scott Ritchey
When I did this job on my 79 TD, I had trouble starting the threads of the
b-nut where the hard line connects to the sphere.  So I unbolted the new
sphere to help align it and that allowed the threads to start right.  Then I
rebolted the sphere to the chasis.

 -Original Message-
 From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Rick
 Hawkins Java
 Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 1:41 AM
 To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Subject: [MBZ] 1882 300 td sls troubles and finally repairs!!
 
 Folks,
 
 Today my helper and i spent a couple of hours working on my sls on the
 300TD.
 
 First we siphoned the fluid out of the reservoir. Then we removed and
 washed the crud out of it and dried it thoroughly.
 
 We jacked the car way up with a floor jack on each side and backed the
 jacks up with jack stands and removed the spheres. I did the
 screwdriver test and the screwdriver goes all the way to the back of
 the unit on the old ones and on the new ones, it stops after about an
 inch ... gently on the new.
 
 I installed the new ones and the high pressure line wouldn't screw in
 on the driver' side. I removed the sphere and the threads were
 obviously buggered up.
 
 I had a cheap $9 HF tap  die set that had a 1/4 inch, i think, pipe
 tap. I  tried it in one of the old units and it fit, so i chased the
 threads easily in the new one. I reinstalled it and it went in with
 little difficulty. We started up and tested for leaks and we were
 golden.
 
 So, i drove the car home and it now rides like an er ... mercedes, not
 like a buckboard wagon. After i parked it, even after about 4 or 5
 hours the car REMAINED AT DRIVING HEIGHT and didn't seem to be
 squatting down as it has been.
 
 I didn't do any tests for up and down, but i suspect all is well.
 
 So, i conclude that the spheres are responsible for more than just the
 ride quality.
 
 The sls control valve seems to be weeping a very little bit. I wiped
 it down and i'll watch it. If any of you have a rebuildable sls
 control valve for a 123, i'll buy it, just so i can build one and then
 just do a swap. It looks like a bear to remove ... lots of small high
 pressure steel lines.
 
 So that was all good. Then i came home and noticed that AAPL (Apple
 stock) went down a couple of $$ but then in after hours trading it
 jumped up $44 or so. I read that they announced some results and more
 importantly, that they are going to do a $30 billion stock buy back
 and also split the stock 7/1 or however you write that  crazy
 investor news.
 
 
 thanks,
 
 xx rick
 Rick Hawkins
 
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Re: [MBZ] Driveshaft fixt.

2014-04-24 Thread Gary Hurst
he even forgot to charge you for it!

what an amazing fellow!  you'd think he'd be everyone's hero, not just the
chowdah crew's



On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 9:48 PM, Frederick Moir fredy4.s...@yahoo.comwrote:

 King sexy has had delivered to me a small boot for the drive-shaft for my
 300TD.
 Speedy and accurate, plus sexy, who could ask for more?
 All assembled ready for the morn and crawl under the car time.
 Center bearing and mount, boot thingy and those rubberoid dognuts fore and
 aft.
 Now waiting for the required hose to correct the crossed fuel lines, so
 that it doesn't run out of fuel at a quarter tank.
 Looking at my list, it may be less expensive to jack up the hubcaps and
 slide in a newer car!



 Fred Moir
 Lynn MA
 Diesel preferred.
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