subject:"\[MBZ\] '87 300D saga"

Nope - they come out right side up.

 Hope it isn't upside down washers.


-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

Good - catch! Hadn't thought of that. Guess it's because I've never
had reason to check the injector timing before. We did measure the
chain stretch before pulling the head, and it was OK - don't remember
the degrees now though.  I'll have to read up on timing the IP.

On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 8:31 AM, MG [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I forget, have you checked the injection pump timing yet. White fuel
 smelling smoke is usually due to retarded timing. Would also make the
 car slow, weak and low mileage. Would also be easier to check then the
 prechamber holes.

 Manfred

-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

You ARE putting them conical side DOWN, right?  The hollow side faces  
the injectors.

I don't remember any significant crush.

Peter



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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

2008-09-07 Thread meadedillon

You ARE putting them conical side DOWN, right?  The hollow side faces  
the injectors.

Wrong! The conical side faces the injectors so that it is pushed against the 
injector face to form a gas tight seal and shield the injector face from the 
heat of combustion.  The conical side gets deformed and that is why they are 
single use items

Very respectfully,
/s/
Max Dillon
'87 300TD, 310k miles
Charleston SC
Digest lurker (on and off) since 2001
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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

Not according to my MB trained friend nor the FSM.  There is a cavity  
on the flat side that serves as a head shield for the nozzle.

Conical side DOWN, hollow side UP.  The seal is between the outer  
edge of the nozzle and the prechamber outer rim, not the hole in the  
bottom.

Upside down there will be very poor sealing with the bottom of the  
pre-shamber, which is conical.

If you feel considerable give you have the seal upside-down.

Peter


On Sep 7, 2008, at 10:42 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 You ARE putting them conical side DOWN, right?  The hollow side faces
 the injectors.

 Wrong! The conical side faces the injectors so that it is pushed  
 against the injector face to form a gas tight seal and shield the  
 injector face from the heat of combustion.  The conical side gets  
 deformed and that is why they are single use items

 Very respectfully,
 /s/
 Max Dillon
 '87 300TD, 310k miles
 Charleston SC
 Digest lurker (on and off) since 2001
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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

I've been installing them woth the conical side up - just as they were
when I removed the injectors. However, I understand that doesn't mean
they were installed right to begin with.

I can't tell from the FSM - there is no text to speak of, and the
picture is too small and crude to tell - I can see it either way.

Since it's not running right the way it is, we might burn the last set
of seals by trying Peter's way - the description makes sense.

The FSM only describes measuring the IP timing with instruments - can
the old drip method be used on a 603, or would the specification be
different vs. the electrical sensor method? Anyone have one of the
gadgets?

On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 11:03 AM, Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Not according to my MB trained friend nor the FSM.  There is a cavity
 on the flat side that serves as a head shield for the nozzle.

 Conical side DOWN, hollow side UP.  The seal is between the outer
 edge of the nozzle and the prechamber outer rim, not the hole in the
 bottom.

 Upside down there will be very poor sealing with the bottom of the
 pre-shamber, which is conical.

 If you feel considerable give you have the seal upside-down.

 Peter

-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

You can set the timing with a drip tube, of course.  26 degrees  
BTDC.  However, you will have to fabricate a drip tube (rubber hose  
that fits over the nipple will work) as there is no factory tool.

You can also use the IP lock tool -- it will only seat when the IP is  
at the correct rotation.  Set engine to 15 degrees ATDC and adjust IP  
so that the tool locks all the way down.

however, unless you dropped the chain or took the injection timer  
off, I don't think you are that far off on timing, it takes 10  
degrees or so to make white smoke on these engines.  Low compression  
from a leaking injector seat is more likely.

You have check to see if you have compression leaking out of the  
retainer rings on the prechambers, and that the prechamber seals are  
actually in contact with the head?  The old chambers on a new head  
sometimes have to be machined down a bit to let the compression ring  
at the top get compressed enough to seal.  The flare at the top of  
the tip of the pre-chamber bottoms out in the bore before it's all  
the way inserted.  You can use plastigage to tell -- it must be  
squished all the way out.

Peter


On Sep 7, 2008, at 1:25 PM, OK Don wrote:

 I've been installing them woth the conical side up - just as they were
 when I removed the injectors. However, I understand that doesn't mean
 they were installed right to begin with.

 I can't tell from the FSM - there is no text to speak of, and the
 picture is too small and crude to tell - I can see it either way.

 Since it's not running right the way it is, we might burn the last set
 of seals by trying Peter's way - the description makes sense.

 The FSM only describes measuring the IP timing with instruments - can
 the old drip method be used on a 603, or would the specification be
 different vs. the electrical sensor method? Anyone have one of the
 gadgets?

 On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 11:03 AM, Peter Frederick  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Not according to my MB trained friend nor the FSM.  There is a cavity
 on the flat side that serves as a head shield for the nozzle.

 Conical side DOWN, hollow side UP.  The seal is between the outer
 edge of the nozzle and the prechamber outer rim, not the hole in the
 bottom.

 Upside down there will be very poor sealing with the bottom of the
 pre-shamber, which is conical.

 If you feel considerable give you have the seal upside-down.

 Peter

 -- 
 OK Don, KD5NRO
 Norman, OK
 There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
 -Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
 '90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
 Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

 ___
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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

Are you saying that the square edged ring at the top of the
pre-chamber seated before the conical section in the middle - between
the large top and the small tip section?
ttp://tinyurl.com/644beq
These prechambers wnet back into the same holes they came out of - no
machining in the holes, only the head to block surface and the valve
seats.

Is the IP lock tool something that can be made from a bolt - turning
the end down to the right shape?

It's true that the timing should not be off due to what we've done,
but I don't know what was done to the car before we got it. The PO
claims it has always blown white smoke since he's had it -


On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 You can set the timing with a drip tube, of course.  26 degrees
 BTDC.  However, you will have to fabricate a drip tube (rubber hose
 that fits over the nipple will work) as there is no factory tool.

 You can also use the IP lock tool -- it will only seat when the IP is
 at the correct rotation.  Set engine to 15 degrees ATDC and adjust IP
 so that the tool locks all the way down.

 however, unless you dropped the chain or took the injection timer
 off, I don't think you are that far off on timing, it takes 10
 degrees or so to make white smoke on these engines.  Low compression
 from a leaking injector seat is more likely.

 You have check to see if you have compression leaking out of the
 retainer rings on the prechambers, and that the prechamber seals are
 actually in contact with the head?  The old chambers on a new head
 sometimes have to be machined down a bit to let the compression ring
 at the top get compressed enough to seal.  The flare at the top of
 the tip of the pre-chamber bottoms out in the bore before it's all
 the way inserted.  You can use plastigage to tell -- it must be
 squished all the way out.

 Peter


 On Sep 7, 2008, at 1:25 PM, OK Don wrote:

 I've been installing them woth the conical side up - just as they were
 when I removed the injectors. However, I understand that doesn't mean
 they were installed right to begin with.

 I can't tell from the FSM - there is no text to speak of, and the
 picture is too small and crude to tell - I can see it either way.

 Since it's not running right the way it is, we might burn the last set
 of seals by trying Peter's way - the description makes sense.

 The FSM only describes measuring the IP timing with instruments - can
 the old drip method be used on a 603, or would the specification be
 different vs. the electrical sensor method? Anyone have one of the
 gadgets?

 On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 11:03 AM, Peter Frederick
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Not according to my MB trained friend nor the FSM.  There is a cavity
 on the flat side that serves as a head shield for the nozzle.

 Conical side DOWN, hollow side UP.  The seal is between the outer
 edge of the nozzle and the prechamber outer rim, not the hole in the
 bottom.

 Upside down there will be very poor sealing with the bottom of the
 pre-shamber, which is conical.

 If you feel considerable give you have the seal upside-down.

 Peter

 --
 OK Don, KD5NRO
 Norman, OK
 There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
 -Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
 '90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
 Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

 ___
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-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

2008-09-07 Thread Loren Faeth

The flat (ish) side of the seal goes against the bottom of the 
injector nozzle.  it is a heat shield as well as a seal.  THe little 
tit goes into the prechamber.


|  |Nozzle tip
||


\__/  Seal
\ /

I never was much good at ascii art.



At 01:25 PM 9/7/2008, you wrote:
I've been installing them woth the conical side up - just as they were
when I removed the injectors. However, I understand that doesn't mean
they were installed right to begin with.

I can't tell from the FSM - there is no text to speak of, and the
picture is too small and crude to tell - I can see it either way.

Since it's not running right the way it is, we might burn the last set
of seals by trying Peter's way - the description makes sense.

The FSM only describes measuring the IP timing with instruments - can
the old drip method be used on a 603, or would the specification be
different vs. the electrical sensor method? Anyone have one of the
gadgets?

On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 11:03 AM, Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Not according to my MB trained friend nor the FSM.  There is a cavity
  on the flat side that serves as a head shield for the nozzle.
 
  Conical side DOWN, hollow side UP.  The seal is between the outer
  edge of the nozzle and the prechamber outer rim, not the hole in the
  bottom.
 
  Upside down there will be very poor sealing with the bottom of the
  pre-shamber, which is conical.
 
  If you feel considerable give you have the seal upside-down.
 
  Peter

--
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Loren Faeth 


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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

Pics will be attached if they're small enough to pass the size filter
- the one on the right is new, the one in the center is partially
punched out, the one on the left was run the same time as the middle
one, but didn't get punched (or torn).
003 shows the side that I've been putting down - facing the combustion chamber.
004 shows the side that has been against the injector.
I'm sending this twice, with one picture per email, in hopes that it
will sneak by the filter.
003 in this one.

On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Loren Faeth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The flat (ish) side of the seal goes against the bottom of the
injector nozzle. it is a heat shield as well as a seal. THe little
tit goes into the prechamber.

| |Nozzle tip
||

\__/ Seal
\ /

I never was much good at ascii art.

--
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)
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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

| |Nozzle tip
||

\__/ Seal
\ /

I never was much good at ascii art.

At 01:25 PM 9/7/2008, you wrote:
I've been installing them woth the conical side up - just as they were
when I removed the injectors. However, I understand that doesn't mean
they were installed right to begin with.

I can't tell from the FSM - there is no text to speak of, and the
picture is too small and crude to tell - I can see it either way.

Since it's not running right the way it is, we might burn the last set
of seals by trying Peter's way - the description makes sense.

The FSM only describes measuring the IP timing with instruments - can
the old drip method be used on a 603, or would the specification be
different vs. the electrical sensor method? Anyone have one of the
gadgets?

On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 11:03 AM, Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Not according to my MB trained friend nor the FSM. There is a cavity
on the flat side that serves as a head shield for the nozzle.

Conical side DOWN, hollow side UP. The seal is between the outer
edge of the nozzle and the prechamber outer rim, not the hole in the
bottom.

Upside down there will be very poor sealing with the bottom of the
pre-shamber, which is conical.

If you feel considerable give you have the seal upside-down.

Peter

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Loren Faeth

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--
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)
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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

2008-09-07 Thread Scott Ritchey

It's been a while since I had my injectors out, but I think you had the
heat shields upside down.

Scott Ritchey

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of OK Don
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 16:42
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

Pics will be attached if they're small enough to pass the size filter
- the one on the right is new, the one in the center is partially
punched out, the one on the left was run the same time as the middle
one, but didn't get punched (or torn).
003 shows the side that I've been putting down - facing the combustion
chamber.
004 shows the side that has been against the injector.
I'm sending this twice, with one picture per email, in hopes that it
will sneak by the filter.
003 in this one.


On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Loren Faeth [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
 The flat (ish) side of the seal goes against the bottom of the
 injector nozzle.  it is a heat shield as well as a seal.  THe little
 tit goes into the prechamber.


 |  |Nozzle tip
 ||

 
 \__/  Seal
\ /

 I never was much good at ascii art.



-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)
-- next part --
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Type: image/jpeg
Size: 17586 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
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f3650/attachment.jpg 
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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

I would definitely verify valve and injection timing then, if the PO  
claimed it smoked white cold it may indeed be off, and the 603 is  
more sensitive to injection timing than the 61x engines.

There is a slot or a recess in the end of the tool that engages the  
nipple on the governor shaft, but I don't know what it looks like.

Or your local dealer can check it.  Sadly, injection shops won't have  
the tool, demand is way too low.  It's easy -- just screw it in, and  
it reads direct, but you gotta have the tool

You may have to pull the pump if it's off that far, though, there  
isn't a huge amount of adjustment room.

Yes, the seal is at the top of the pre-chamber, not the taper.  If  
the taper is touching the bottom of the hole, it won't seal at the  
top.  This is only an issue if you are using old style (-14- head)  
prechambers in a -17 or -22 head.

Peter

On Sep 7, 2008, at 1:59 PM, OK Don wrote:

 Are you saying that the square edged ring at the top of the
 pre-chamber seated before the conical section in the middle - between
 the large top and the small tip section?
 ttp://tinyurl.com/644beq
 These prechambers wnet back into the same holes they came out of - no
 machining in the holes, only the head to block surface and the valve
 seats.

 Is the IP lock tool something that can be made from a bolt - turning
 the end down to the right shape?

 It's true that the timing should not be off due to what we've done,
 but I don't know what was done to the car before we got it. The PO
 claims it has always blown white smoke since he's had it -


 On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Peter Frederick  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 You can set the timing with a drip tube, of course.  26 degrees
 BTDC.  However, you will have to fabricate a drip tube (rubber hose
 that fits over the nipple will work) as there is no factory tool.

 You can also use the IP lock tool -- it will only seat when the IP is
 at the correct rotation.  Set engine to 15 degrees ATDC and adjust IP
 so that the tool locks all the way down.

 however, unless you dropped the chain or took the injection timer
 off, I don't think you are that far off on timing, it takes 10
 degrees or so to make white smoke on these engines.  Low compression
 from a leaking injector seat is more likely.

 You have check to see if you have compression leaking out of the
 retainer rings on the prechambers, and that the prechamber seals are
 actually in contact with the head?  The old chambers on a new head
 sometimes have to be machined down a bit to let the compression ring
 at the top get compressed enough to seal.  The flare at the top of
 the tip of the pre-chamber bottoms out in the bore before it's all
 the way inserted.  You can use plastigage to tell -- it must be
 squished all the way out.

 Peter


 On Sep 7, 2008, at 1:25 PM, OK Don wrote:

 I've been installing them woth the conical side up - just as they  
 were
 when I removed the injectors. However, I understand that doesn't  
 mean
 they were installed right to begin with.

 I can't tell from the FSM - there is no text to speak of, and the
 picture is too small and crude to tell - I can see it either way.

 Since it's not running right the way it is, we might burn the  
 last set
 of seals by trying Peter's way - the description makes sense.

 The FSM only describes measuring the IP timing with instruments -  
 can
 the old drip method be used on a 603, or would the specification be
 different vs. the electrical sensor method? Anyone have one of the
 gadgets?

 On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 11:03 AM, Peter Frederick
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Not according to my MB trained friend nor the FSM.  There is a  
 cavity
 on the flat side that serves as a head shield for the nozzle.

 Conical side DOWN, hollow side UP.  The seal is between the outer
 edge of the nozzle and the prechamber outer rim, not the hole in  
 the
 bottom.

 Upside down there will be very poor sealing with the bottom of the
 pre-shamber, which is conical.

 If you feel considerable give you have the seal upside-down.

 Peter

 --
 OK Don, KD5NRO
 Norman, OK
 There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
 -Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
 '90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
 Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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 -- 
 OK Don, KD5NRO
 Norman, OK
 There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

OK - we have 14 prechambers in a 14 head.

We just puller the injectors and installed new seals, the right way
this time. It made no difference in the way it idles. Still have white
smoke.

While it was idling we sprayed brake cleaner into the recess where the
clamping ring screws into the head to hold the prechamber, and #3 is
blowing bubbles. The rest are not. After it cools a bit, we'll try
pulling the prechamber and see what we can see.

What effect would dirty or partially clogged holes in the tip of the
prechamber make?

If you cut the ends off the prechambers, would you have a hybrid
direct/indirect injection engine?

On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 4:12 PM, Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I would definitely verify valve and injection timing then, if the PO
 claimed it smoked white cold it may indeed be off, and the 603 is
 more sensitive to injection timing than the 61x engines.

 There is a slot or a recess in the end of the tool that engages the
 nipple on the governor shaft, but I don't know what it looks like.

 Or your local dealer can check it.  Sadly, injection shops won't have
 the tool, demand is way too low.  It's easy -- just screw it in, and
 it reads direct, but you gotta have the tool

 You may have to pull the pump if it's off that far, though, there
 isn't a huge amount of adjustment room.

 Yes, the seal is at the top of the pre-chamber, not the taper.  If
 the taper is touching the bottom of the hole, it won't seal at the
 top.  This is only an issue if you are using old style (-14- head)
 prechambers in a -17 or -22 head.

 Peter

-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

You should pull #3 and see why it's not sealing.  Can be dirt on the  
seal ring, crud in the threads, etc, or carbon preventing the pre- 
chamber from seating completely.

If you cut the ends off the prechambers you will promptly burn holes  
in the piston crowns. Direct injection injectors spray sideways, not  
straight down.

Plugged holes will result in very poor combustion because the air in  
the cylinder is not being compressed into the prechamber, and the  
lack of resultant swirl AND large excess of fuel will result in lack  
of fuel ignition.

Peter


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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

We pulled #3 - couldn't see why it wasn't sealing, also pulled #1 to
check the holes, and to compare against #3. All looked good. Cleaned
them up best we possibly could, wiped a thin layer of Hylomar on the
seal edge of the prechambers and reassembled. The leaking around #3 is
now about 1 bubble every 5 seconds. I doubt that it's causing the
symptoms at this time, so we'll live with it for now and watch it.

The engine idles smoothly for the first few minutes (from cold), then
sets up an occasional burst - brup - sound at irregular intervals.
I unplugged the idle control to see if was causing it - nope. it idled
very slow and irregular without the control It maintained the same
bup sound. Plugged it back in, and it was back to how it was
before.

At this point I'm guessing timing, though we didn't pull the other 4
prechambers to check the holes.

Guess I won't be cutting the ends off the prechambers - any time soon anyway!

FYI - if you don't remove the glow plug before pulling the prechamber,
it gets the end neatly sheared off - don't ask how I know this!

On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 7:26 PM, Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 You should pull #3 and see why it's not sealing.  Can be dirt on the
 seal ring, crud in the threads, etc, or carbon preventing the pre-
 chamber from seating completely.

 If you cut the ends off the prechambers you will promptly burn holes
 in the piston crowns. Direct injection injectors spray sideways, not
 straight down.

 Plugged holes will result in very poor combustion because the air in
 the cylinder is not being compressed into the prechamber, and the
 lack of resultant swirl AND large excess of fuel will result in lack
 of fuel ignition.

 Peter


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-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

2008-09-07 Thread John Robbins

OK Don wrote:
 FYI - if you don't remove the glow plug before pulling the prechamber,
 it gets the end neatly sheared off - don't ask how I know this!

If you aren't careful, the tip of the glow plug will fall into the 
engine unknown to you...  then the engine dies.  Don't ask how I know 
this! ;)

John

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

Our's was still inside the prechamber --

On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 8:58 PM, John Robbins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 OK Don wrote:
 FYI - if you don't remove the glow plug before pulling the prechamber,
 it gets the end neatly sheared off - don't ask how I know this!

 If you aren't careful, the tip of the glow plug will fall into the
 engine unknown to you...  then the engine dies.  Don't ask how I know
 this! ;)

 John


-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

It's truely amazing what you can learn by screwing up

Don't try to pull a prechamber with a series loop glow plug in it, I  
don't thing you can shear it off like that

Probably not timing causing the irregular idle variation.  I'd switch  
the suction hose from the tank to bypass the fuel thermostat and  
verify that there are no air leaks at the lift pump inlet (the  
fitting swivels, there is an o-ring in there that goes bad and leaks  
air in).  An air leak may account for part of the white smoke, too.

Cheaper and easier than retiming the IP, although it sure sounds off.

Do you get ANY black smoke at full throtte, third gear, about 50 mph?

Peter



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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

We did replace the o-ring at the pressure/exit fitting of the lift
pump. The suction side is cast into the housing - nothing to replace
there. All the hoses are new. The fuel thermostat has a new o-ring,
and is now plumbed to match the other 2 124's in the drive. When we
got the car, the suction side of the lift pump was connected to the
return line to the fuel tank.
I did wonder about he supply of fuel, and the tank screen, but it sure
runs good at high RPM and load.

We haven't looked for black smoke at 50, etc. - it's usually dark by
the time we get to driving it. We'll do that some time during the
week.

I did confirm again that there is no pressure in the radiator hoses
the morning after a hard run.

I did just notice that there is a line coming off the top of what I
think is the vacuum control valve (#65 in the drawings) towards the
rear of the IP that has no hose connected to it. All the hoses/tubes
that I see are connected to something. I guess this is a miss-wired
as the fuel lines were. We'll sort those out next.


 Probably not timing causing the irregular idle variation.  I'd switch
 the suction hose from the tank to bypass the fuel thermostat and
 verify that there are no air leaks at the lift pump inlet (the
 fitting swivels, there is an o-ring in there that goes bad and leaks
 air in).  An air leak may account for part of the white smoke, too.

 Cheaper and easier than retiming the IP, although it sure sounds off.

 Do you get ANY black smoke at full throtte, third gear, about 50 mph?

 Peter


-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

2008-09-07 Thread John Robbins

OK Don wrote:
 Our's was still inside the prechamber --

Half the tip of mine had been melted by an injector with no pintle. 
That same injector also ate two holes in the prechamber walls... so 
thats probably where the smaller GP tip fell out of.

http://picasaweb.google.com/Tymbrymi/DeathOfWhiteSD

John

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

2008-09-07 Thread Loren Faeth

That is an interesting picture set.  I have seen many older engines 
with the marks from the remains of GP loops.  I have never seen a 
prechamber so messed up.  Your piston top looks more like a ball 
bearing was bouncing around in there.  The pencil type GPs are much 
less troublesome than the loop type.

At 09:49 PM 9/7/2008, you wrote:
OK Don wrote:
  Our's was still inside the prechamber --

Half the tip of mine had been melted by an injector with no pintle.
That same injector also ate two holes in the prechamber walls... so
thats probably where the smaller GP tip fell out of.

http://picasaweb.google.com/Tymbrymi/DeathOfWhiteSD

John

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Loren Faeth 


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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

2008-09-07 Thread Jim Cathey

 I did just notice that there is a line coming off the top of what I
 think is the vacuum control valve (#65 in the drawings) towards the
 rear of the IP that has no hose connected to it. All the hoses/tubes
 that I see are connected to something. I guess this is a miss-wired
 as the fuel lines were. We'll sort those out next.

There is a vent line on the VCV, that's half of the equation
for modulating vacuum.  It's supposed to go into the cabin for
clean air, though.  Hangs open in there, connected to nothing.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

2008-09-07 Thread Jim Cathey

 Is the IP lock tool something that can be made from a bolt - turning
 the end down to the right shape?

I did.  I cut a notch in the end of a bolt.  See:

http://userweb.windwireless.net/~jimc/mb190dlog.html

Somewhere in there.  It's not as good as the real thing,
methinks.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

2008-09-06 Thread OK Don

The rebuilt injectors arrived from Rusty Yesterday evening --
installed them this afternoon. (FYI - they come with new seal rings).
When we pulled the old injectors out, one of the seal rings had the
center section almost punched out, and we've seen this everytime we've
pulled injectors out. Very odd. You can feel a relaxing of pressure
while torquing them down that I think is telling us that it's punching
that center section.

The car runs much better. However, it has an uneven idle - at random
intervals, between 1 and 15 seconds apart, it will try to rev up for
about a 1/4 to 1/2 second. If you start off from a stop slowly, it
runs rough (almost like it's still doing those short revs) till about
2000 rpm, then it's rather smooth. It'sstill blowing lots of white
smoke that smells like unburnt fuel.
If you stomp on it from a stop, it moves out smartly - very nice. If
it weren't for the fog bank behind us, I'd be inclined to tell the son
- drive it like you stole it!

Guess it's time to pull the pre-chambers and inspect/clean all those
tiny holes - I think I have a small size root canal reamer that ought
to be just right.

On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 9:04 PM, OK Don [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Talked to Rusty this morning - Bosch remanufactured injectors are $44
 each - ordered them instead of taking the old ones to be rebuilt.
 Sounded like a bargain to me ---


-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

2008-09-02 Thread OK Don

Talked to Rusty this morning - Bosch remanufactured injectors are $44
each - ordered them instead of taking the old ones to be rebuilt.
Sounded like a bargain to me ---

On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 11:15 AM, OK Don [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Also -- we called all three shops - the price is the same for a
 rebuilding and calibrating injectors - $60.00 each.

 On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 11:09 AM, OK Don [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 There are two Bosch certified shops in OKC - I'll take them to the
 closest one Tuesday AM ---
 Thanks for the offer though.


-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

2008-09-01 Thread Luther

Send them to us and we'll return them this weekend.

Luther

OK Don wrote:
 The intake valve guides were within tolerance, the exhaust guides are now new.

 Yes - we bought a complete set of new head bolts and installed them.

 The prechambers didn't look al that gunked up - we did clean them
 before re-installing, but mostly the exterior. All of the balls inside
 look fine from the top. Might need to pull #1 and carefully clean the
 fire holes.

 Lacking anything else to do, we made capture/measuring tubes from 5cc
 syringes - took the plunger out of the piston, shoved the pistons all
 the way in, then hung them over the injection line ends. Cranked the
 engine till #1 had fuel up to the 3cc mark. Took them all off and
 compared - all had 3cc of fuel, eliminating the possibility that the
 IP wasn't delivering an equal amount of fuel to all injectors (at
 least by a gross amount).

 Next we took the 5 old injectors that I've had lying around from a NA
 617. Saw that they are rated at 115 bar while the proper injectors for
 the 603 are 135 bar. We puuled the first 5 injectors and swapped in
 the old ones.
 The engine idled MUCH smoother than it had before. We tested each cyl.
 again by lossening the injection line, and found that 1 and 6 made the
 most difference, 2 made very little, and 3, 4, and 5 made some. The
 no difference had moved from 1 to 2. There was still some white
 smoke, but much less than before (not enough to dampen the enthusiasm
 of the mosquitoes).

 Our conclusion now (despite the earlier test where swapping an
 injector between 1 and 6 made no difference), is that the set of
 injectors need a rebuild.

   

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

2008-09-01 Thread OK Don

There are two Bosch certified shops in OKC - I'll take them to the
closest one Tuesday AM ---
Thanks for the offer though.

On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 9:56 AM, Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Send them to us and we'll return them this weekend.

 Luther

-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

2008-09-01 Thread OK Don

Also -- we called all three shops - the price is the same for a
rebuilding and calibrating injectors - $60.00 each.

On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 11:09 AM, OK Don [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 There are two Bosch certified shops in OKC - I'll take them to the
 closest one Tuesday AM ---
 Thanks for the offer though.

 On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 9:56 AM, Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Send them to us and we'll return them this weekend.

 Luther


-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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[MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

2008-08-30 Thread OK Don

This is the car with a rough idle and copious quantities of white
smoke, that goes away after 10 to 15 miles.

We loosened the fuel lines to the injectors, one at a time to see
which cylinders were firing and which weren't.
We found that #6 made the most difference when loose, and #1 made no
discernible difference.

Swapped injectors between 1 and 6 - tested again. Same results - it's
not the injectors.
Noticed when loosening the lines, that it seemed that more fuel is
coming from #6 than from #1 when loose, but with unequal pressure on
the lines, etc., figured that might not be a valid observation.

Next - tested compression. There's another story here about getting a
combination of adapters from the Harbor Freight kit to work - later.

#1 - 260psi
#2 - 340
#3 - 360
#4 - 320
#5 - 360
#6 - 340

We ran the test on #1 several times to verify repeatable results.
Since that head and valves just came back from the machine shop, I
suspect rings. Squirted oil into the prechamber several times, let it
sit about 5 minutes, cranked the engine over ten compression strokes,
then tested compression again -
#1 - 300 with oil

I'm guessing that the rings are the cause of the low compression in #1.

These are the results from the test before we pulled the head and fond
the leaking head gasket -

#1 - 200psi
#2 - 360psi
#3 - hit 160, then back to zero before the next compression stroke
(bad gauge technique)
#4 - 360psi
#5 - 360psi
#6 - 360psi

Seems that the head job has raised #1 from 200 to 260. I wonder if the
rings aren't carbonned up and 20,000 miles with Mobil 1 will clean
them up and improve the compression. The piston was a TDC, and we
didn't rotate the engine with the cam out, s didn't get a look at the
cyl. walls. Those that we could see looked good, with the cross
hatching still visible.

I don't see anything that would account for the rough idle and white
smoke -- unless it's the injection pump?
Would capturing the fuel sent to the injectors in 6 identical
containers and comparing them be a valid test for delivery volume?

Kaleb - why did you have the IP in the '92 300D rebuilt? Did they doa
complete rebuild and recalibrate, or jsut fix what was wrong?

-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

2008-08-30 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin

The pump that was on the car was fine but the rack position sensor was 
fine.  I had the pump that was on the engine in my other 91 2.5 that I 
am doing the engine swap, its pump was leaking fuel into the oil. It was 
cheaper to have that pump completely rebuilt and recalibrated etc than 
to just replace the rack sensor on the other pump.

OK Don wrote:
 This is the car with a rough idle and copious quantities of white
 smoke, that goes away after 10 to 15 miles.
 
 We loosened the fuel lines to the injectors, one at a time to see
 which cylinders were firing and which weren't.
 We found that #6 made the most difference when loose, and #1 made no
 discernible difference.
 
 Swapped injectors between 1 and 6 - tested again. Same results - it's
 not the injectors.
 Noticed when loosening the lines, that it seemed that more fuel is
 coming from #6 than from #1 when loose, but with unequal pressure on
 the lines, etc., figured that might not be a valid observation.
 
 Next - tested compression. There's another story here about getting a
 combination of adapters from the Harbor Freight kit to work - later.
 
 #1 - 260psi
 #2 - 340
 #3 - 360
 #4 - 320
 #5 - 360
 #6 - 340
 
 We ran the test on #1 several times to verify repeatable results.
 Since that head and valves just came back from the machine shop, I
 suspect rings. Squirted oil into the prechamber several times, let it
 sit about 5 minutes, cranked the engine over ten compression strokes,
 then tested compression again -
 #1 - 300 with oil
 
 I'm guessing that the rings are the cause of the low compression in #1.
 
 These are the results from the test before we pulled the head and fond
 the leaking head gasket -
 
 #1 - 200psi
 #2 - 360psi
 #3 - hit 160, then back to zero before the next compression stroke
 (bad gauge technique)
 #4 - 360psi
 #5 - 360psi
 #6 - 360psi
 
 Seems that the head job has raised #1 from 200 to 260. I wonder if the
 rings aren't carbonned up and 20,000 miles with Mobil 1 will clean
 them up and improve the compression. The piston was a TDC, and we
 didn't rotate the engine with the cam out, s didn't get a look at the
 cyl. walls. Those that we could see looked good, with the cross
 hatching still visible.
 
 I don't see anything that would account for the rough idle and white
 smoke -- unless it's the injection pump?
 Would capturing the fuel sent to the injectors in 6 identical
 containers and comparing them be a valid test for delivery volume?
 
 Kaleb - why did you have the IP in the '92 300D rebuilt? Did they doa
 complete rebuild and recalibrate, or jsut fix what was wrong?
 
 
 
 
 
 
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 6:12 PM
 

-- 
Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK
  92 300SD, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D, 91 300E, 89 560SEL,
  87 300SDL x2, 86 300E, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 85 190D,
  84 190D, 84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 80 240D, 76 240D,
  76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250, 66 220SEb
http://www.okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

2008-08-30 Thread OK Don

Ok - so a complete rebuild of a 5 cyl pump was ~$500. That's what I
was looking for.

Another bit of information about the 'troubles' - we replaced all the
delivery valve seals on the IP before we pulled the head (some were
leaking).

On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 4:53 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 The pump that was on the car was fine but the rack position sensor was
 fine.  I had the pump that was on the engine in my other 91 2.5 that I
 am doing the engine swap, its pump was leaking fuel into the oil. It was
 cheaper to have that pump completely rebuilt and recalibrated etc than
 to just replace the rack sensor on the other pump.


-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

2008-08-30 Thread Peter Frederick

Several possiblities here, including a lousy valve job!

Check with the machine shop and find out what the valve to guide  
clearance was, and if they tested the valves for perfect seal before  
giving you the head.  Correct valve to guide clearance is 0.001 to  
0.0015, and this is critical.  I always get heads back unassembled  
and check the guides myself -- with the valve a few mm off the seat,  
you should not be able to detect ANY sideways motion (this is not  
true on a few engines with tapered valve stems, but all MB are  
straight).  If it clicks or you can feel movement, the shop needs to  
install new guides and get them correct.  You do NOT need clearance  
for oil, spiral grooves, or any other such crap.

If the guides are loose, the valves will never seal, no matter how  
much you lap them.

Second, did you use new head bolts (all what, 27?).  Expensive, but  
they don't hold very well if you re-use them.

It's possible that #1 rod is bent from hydrolocking.  You will know  
very soon if this is the case, as the bore will wear oval extremely  
fast, clank horribly as the piston rattles in the bore, and burn  
gallons of oil.  Probably not the case yet.

Check blowby -- a 603 in good shape has none visible at all at idle  
-- the suction from the turbo will pull fresh air into the oil filler  
cap.  If you have more that that, something is leaking.

Did you clean the holes in the pre-chambers?  Mine were badly  
carboned up from the water leaks through the head.  Hard glassy  
carbon deposits all over the pistons and head, too.  If you were  
burning large amounts of oil (as you probably were on #1), the  
prechamber is full of ash and carbon, and you have very poor  
combustion -- way too much fuel and low temperature from blocked  
fire holes.  You can fix this by pulling the pre-chamber and  
cleaning it.

And there is the possibility that you have leaking pressure valve  
holder seals on the IP.  Not an expensive fix, if a bit fiddly (and I  
have to remember to do this on my brother's new IP -- one is  
leaking).  Usually causes severe injector knock without smoke, but  
it's only $10 and easy to do.

Peter


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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

2008-08-30 Thread OK Don

The intake valve guides were within tolerance, the exhaust guides are now new.

Yes - we bought a complete set of new head bolts and installed them.

The prechambers didn't look al that gunked up - we did clean them
before re-installing, but mostly the exterior. All of the balls inside
look fine from the top. Might need to pull #1 and carefully clean the
fire holes.

Lacking anything else to do, we made capture/measuring tubes from 5cc
syringes - took the plunger out of the piston, shoved the pistons all
the way in, then hung them over the injection line ends. Cranked the
engine till #1 had fuel up to the 3cc mark. Took them all off and
compared - all had 3cc of fuel, eliminating the possibility that the
IP wasn't delivering an equal amount of fuel to all injectors (at
least by a gross amount).

Next we took the 5 old injectors that I've had lying around from a NA
617. Saw that they are rated at 115 bar while the proper injectors for
the 603 are 135 bar. We puuled the first 5 injectors and swapped in
the old ones.
The engine idled MUCH smoother than it had before. We tested each cyl.
again by lossening the injection line, and found that 1 and 6 made the
most difference, 2 made very little, and 3, 4, and 5 made some. The
no difference had moved from 1 to 2. There was still some white
smoke, but much less than before (not enough to dampen the enthusiasm
of the mosquitoes).

Our conclusion now (despite the earlier test where swapping an
injector between 1 and 6 made no difference), is that the set of
injectors need a rebuild.

On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 6:12 PM, Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Several possiblities here, including a lousy valve job!

 Check with the machine shop and find out what the valve to guide
 clearance was, and if they tested the valves for perfect seal before
 giving you the head.  Correct valve to guide clearance is 0.001 to
 0.0015, and this is critical.  I always get heads back unassembled
 and check the guides myself -- with the valve a few mm off the seat,
 you should not be able to detect ANY sideways motion (this is not
 true on a few engines with tapered valve stems, but all MB are
 straight).  If it clicks or you can feel movement, the shop needs to
 install new guides and get them correct.  You do NOT need clearance
 for oil, spiral grooves, or any other such crap.

 If the guides are loose, the valves will never seal, no matter how
 much you lap them.

 Second, did you use new head bolts (all what, 27?).  Expensive, but
 they don't hold very well if you re-use them.

 It's possible that #1 rod is bent from hydrolocking.  You will know
 very soon if this is the case, as the bore will wear oval extremely
 fast, clank horribly as the piston rattles in the bore, and burn
 gallons of oil.  Probably not the case yet.

 Check blowby -- a 603 in good shape has none visible at all at idle
 -- the suction from the turbo will pull fresh air into the oil filler
 cap.  If you have more that that, something is leaking.

 Did you clean the holes in the pre-chambers?  Mine were badly
 carboned up from the water leaks through the head.  Hard glassy
 carbon deposits all over the pistons and head, too.  If you were
 burning large amounts of oil (as you probably were on #1), the
 prechamber is full of ash and carbon, and you have very poor
 combustion -- way too much fuel and low temperature from blocked
 fire holes.  You can fix this by pulling the pre-chamber and
 cleaning it.

 And there is the possibility that you have leaking pressure valve
 holder seals on the IP.  Not an expensive fix, if a bit fiddly (and I
 have to remember to do this on my brother's new IP -- one is
 leaking).  Usually causes severe injector knock without smoke, but
 it's only $10 and easy to do.

 Peter


-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga continues

2008-08-30 Thread Peter Frederick

I think you are correct.

I had considerably more white smoke than I expected, and huge amounts  
of injector knock at low speeds for a while after I did the head  
gasket on mine -- naturally, I cleaned the head up shiny looking for  
cracks (that were there and I didn't see them).

Hopefully running with good injectors will also raise the compression  
on #1 -- it is quite possible that the rings are stuck.  Hopefully no  
significant cylinder damage, just not sealing well.

The reason I mentioned valve guide clearance is the supposedly  
rebuilt head I was going to install on the old 300D -- with the  
valves open 1/4 or so that clicked when pushed sideways!  WAY too  
much clearance.  I suspect that is also true on the new head on my  
current 300D -- starts and runs perfectly, but has too much blowby  
and burns a quart of oil in 100o to 1500 miles, I suspect due to  
excessive guide to valve clearance.  The valve guide seals fail very  
rapidly with that much guide clearance, and the escaping exhaust  
gasses aerosol the oil, which then goes down the intake.  I have a  
variety of slow leaks too, but the blowby annoys me.

Most shops will want to leave 0.003 to 0.005 clearance for oil on  
the valve stem as if the hole was gonna wear smaller or something.

Peter




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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

2008-06-02 Thread Luther

Especially when it is only 190mi west on I-40 
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=dhl=engeocode=saddr=van+buren,+ardaddr=oklahoma+city,+oksll=37.0625,-95.677068sspn=58.99189,95.625ie=UTF8z=7
or
http://tinyurl.com/5cxtd9

-- 
Luther   KB5QHUAlma, Ark
'87 300SDL (272,xxx mi) head case
'85 Ford F250 6.9 diesel (x58,xxx mi) BioBeast
'82 300CD (176 kmi)
'82 300D  (74 kmi) getting donor engine-sold
'85 300D (280,176) parts car sans engine



Quoting Craig McCluskey [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 19:29:31 -0500 Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I had this same problem on my head.  The steel pin was well attached to
 the aluminum around it.  I finally broke down and bought a removal tool
 after breaking 2 bolts off IN THE PIN.  The job took more time to remove
 the new (correct) tool from it's package (30 seconds?) than to remove
 the pin from the head (10-15 seconds)... 

 Luther, I can ship this tool AND head tool first thing in the morning... 

 And if it's not too big, USPO Express Mail is fast and cheap ... 


 Craig



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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

I'm down to the last pin holding the far end of the chain rail. I use
a bolt through a series of sockets, washers, etc. to pull these pins -
the process worked fine on all the pins in the 117 V-8, and the other
pin on this engine.
I've tightened the bolt to the extent that I'm afraid it will break (I
did buy a 10.9 series bolt for the job), but still no movement at all.
If I heat the aluminum around the pin, will it tighten around the pin,
or loosen it's grip? what about dry ice?
Would using a slide hammer puller (requiring removal of the radiator,
evaporator) make a difference?


-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

2008-06-01 Thread Frederick W Moir

OK Don.
When doing the 601  602 The pins came out hard, but did come out by 
bolt and nut puller. Using a slide hammer would put impact forces on 
exactly the same bolt, plus some side load. Don't underestimate the 
force applied by the screw, it will come out. Just make sure that 
there is plenty of thread in the pin. Heating the aluminum will 
expand the annulus and reduce its grip on the pin. Be careful with 
heat and aluminum.
HTH
Fred Moir
Lynn MA
Hey! buddy your putting oil in your gas tank!

At 12:29 PM 6/1/2008, you wrote:
I'm down to the last pin holding the far end of the chain rail. I use
a bolt through a series of sockets, washers, etc. to pull these pins -
the process worked fine on all the pins in the 117 V-8, and the other
pin on this engine.
I've tightened the bolt to the extent that I'm afraid it will break (I
did buy a 10.9 series bolt for the job), but still no movement at all.
If I heat the aluminum around the pin, will it tighten around the pin,
or loosen it's grip? what about dry ice?
Would using a slide hammer puller (requiring removal of the radiator,
evaporator) make a difference?
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK


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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

2008-06-01 Thread Jim Cathey

 Would using a slide hammer puller (requiring removal of the radiator,
 evaporator) make a difference?

Probably.  It's amazing sometimes what impact will do.
Things that would break with a steady load will let loose
with an impact.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

I've been hammering (with a wood block against the head) around,
above, and behind the pin to no effect. I'll try heating it with a
Benz-o-matic next, hoping not to light any stray Diesel in the area.
If that doesn't work, I'll pull everything and get a slide hammer.


 Probably.  It's amazing sometimes what impact will do.
 Things that would break with a steady load will let loose
 with an impact.


-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

2008-06-01 Thread Mitch Haley

OK Don wrote:
 I'll try heating it with a Benz-o-matic next, hoping not to light any
 stray Diesel in the area.

Benz-o-matic? Is that like a Veg-O-Matic for Benzes? ;-)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

Depending on how it's used - yes.

On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 6:29 PM, Mitch Haley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 OK Don wrote:
 I'll try heating it with a Benz-o-matic next, hoping not to light any
 stray Diesel in the area.

 Benz-o-matic? Is that like a Veg-O-Matic for Benzes? ;-)


-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

2008-06-01 Thread Bill R

Only if you do it wrong...
BillR

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Mitch Haley
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 7:30 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

OK Don wrote:
 I'll try heating it with a Benz-o-matic next, hoping not to light any
 stray Diesel in the area.

Benz-o-matic? Is that like a Veg-O-Matic for Benzes? ;-)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

2008-06-01 Thread Luther

I had this same problem on my head.  The steel pin was well attached to the 
aluminum around it.  I finally broke down and bought a removal tool after 
breaking 2 bolts off IN THE PIN.  The job took more time to remove the new 
(correct) tool from it's package (30 seconds?) than to remove the pin from the 
head (10-15 seconds)...

Luther, I can ship this tool AND head tool first thing in the morning...

On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 11:29:32 -0500, OK Don [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I'm down to the last pin holding the far end of the chain rail. I use
 a bolt through a series of sockets, washers, etc. to pull these pins -
 the process worked fine on all the pins in the 117 V-8, and the other
 pin on this engine.
 I've tightened the bolt to the extent that I'm afraid it will break (I
 did buy a 10.9 series bolt for the job), but still no movement at all.
 If I heat the aluminum around the pin, will it tighten around the pin,
 or loosen it's grip? what about dry ice?
 Would using a slide hammer puller (requiring removal of the radiator,
 evaporator) make a difference?





-- 
Luther   KB5QHUAlma, Ark
'87 300SDL (272,xxx mi) head case
'85 Ford F250 6.9 diesel (x58,xxx mi)
'82 300CD (166 kmi)
'82 300D  (74 kmi) getting donor engine-sold
'85 300D (280,176) parts car sans engine

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

2008-06-01 Thread Craig McCluskey

On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 19:29:31 -0500 Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I had this same problem on my head.  The steel pin was well attached to
 the aluminum around it.  I finally broke down and bought a removal tool
 after breaking 2 bolts off IN THE PIN.  The job took more time to remove
 the new (correct) tool from it's package (30 seconds?) than to remove
 the pin from the head (10-15 seconds)...
 
 Luther, I can ship this tool AND head tool first thing in the morning...

And if it's not too big, USPO Express Mail is fast and cheap ...


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

I'd much appreciate it!!!  My address is coming via another email account --


 Luther, I can ship this tool AND head tool first thing in the morning...


-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

2008-05-30 Thread Jim Cathey

 I asked about doing that many years ago because I always did it with
 gasser's.  Someone on the old list warned that the oil could act as 
 fuel and
 a combustion could occur.  I decided to follow that advice so I still 
 don't
 know.  Is it a common practice with diesels?

It's hard enough to get atomized diesel to ignite, I can't see how
a film of oil on the piston top and rings is going to run away.
Even if it did combust, so what?  All the other cylinders are 'dead'
with their GP's or injectors out, and there's no other fuel.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

2008-05-30 Thread Mitch Haley

I had a SL (SL2, the Saturn kind) try to start on me yesterday
when doing a compression test. Blew the schrader valve in my Craftsman
compression tester. I have no idea if the gauge is still accurate, I'll 
have to rig up something to test it. 
There were no spark plugs in the car, but there was motor oil in the cylinder
I was testing. Ever pull a spark plug boot on a twin cam engine (plugs in the
center in deep wells in the head) and find the spark plug submerged in oil?
That's one serious valve cover gasket leak. I sopped up what I could
with paper towels, pulled the plug (letting the oil into the cylinder,
I didn't have my mityvac with me) then I cranked it with the plug
out to blow out most of the oil. (maybe I should have pulled that plug
first and started the engine on the other cylinders to blow out the oil
better)

Jim Cathey wrote:
 
 It's hard enough to get atomized diesel to ignite, I can't see how
 a film of oil on the piston top and rings is going to run away.
 Even if it did combust, so what?

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

The usual directions that came with the gauge set warned against
oiling the cylinder prior to setting - fear of hydro lock, I think,
though a gauge bow-out seems more likely.

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 6:25 AM, Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I asked about doing that many years ago because I always did it with
 gasser's.  Someone on the old list warned that the oil could act as
 fuel and
 a combustion could occur.  I decided to follow that advice so I still
 don't
 know.  Is it a common practice with diesels?

 It's hard enough to get atomized diesel to ignite, I can't see how
 a film of oil on the piston top and rings is going to run away.
 Even if it did combust, so what?  All the other cylinders are 'dead'
 with their GP's or injectors out, and there's no other fuel.


-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

2008-05-30 Thread LarryT

It's called a Wet compression test - there should not be any chance of the 
teaspoon of oil starting the engine - it takes *very* little oil to seal the 
rings during a C test!

SOP is to remove *all* spark plugs/Glow Plugs and tie the accel linkage to 
WOT before cranking to take a reading.   Getting the engine to spin at high 
RPM gives the best reading - a Dry CT is also done - for the reasons 
mentioned (rings Vs Head problems).

If someone is starting their engine they're not doing the test properly.

Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
800-583-8601
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs



- Original Message - 
From: Harry Watkins [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:16 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga


 Jim wrote:

 Standard compression test lore is to shoot some oil into the cylinder
 and test it again, significant changes point to rings.

 I asked about doing that many years ago because I always did it with
 gasser's.  Someone on the old list warned that the oil could act as fuel 
 and
 a combustion could occur.  I decided to follow that advice so I still 
 don't
 know.  Is it a common practice with diesels?

 Thanks
 Harry

 On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 11:03 PM, Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:

  Also - since the white smoke stops as it gets hot - which state is
  correct, or does the difference tell us something?

 The difference could indeed tell someone something.  But perhaps
 not me.  I've just heard/read that a compression test is only
 meaningful when hot.  I interpret that to say that while it can
 pass when cold, 'failing' when cold isn't failure.  You could
 have a gunky valve that's not sealing when cold, etc.  Standard
 compression test lore is to shoot some oil into the cylinder
 and test it again, significant changes point to rings, else
 it's head gasket and/or valves at fault.

 I had bad white smoke on the 190D when I had the IP timed
 off by one spline.  A sticky centrifugal advance mechanism
 could cause some sorts of misbehavior, though that's certainly
 a robust enough mechanism not to be particularly prone to it.

 -- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

You can take the manifold off and leave the turbo in the car if you  
want -- this is how we ended up doing the head gasket on my brothers  
(broken exhaust manifold stud). Take the crossover pipe and the  
exhaust return to turbo off and you should be able to get to the  
studs.  It's quite tight in the W124, we were working on my brother's  
SDL which has much more room.  We pulled the head and turbo together  
on my 300D.  WATCH that you have someone under the car to push the  
oil pipe out of the block and that it doesn't hang on anything, else  
you will bend the crap out of it and have to replace it.

The trick with the manifold studs is that they are 6mm studs, tighten  
accordingly (20 ft/lbs), not as tight as you can pull them.  The  
gasket is actually a spring form sheet metal seal, and if you mash it  
flat, it fails and leaks.

For your lack of fuel, replace ALL the fuel lines on the suction side  
(this includes the ones to the fuel pre-heater).  If any are  
original, they are now leaking and you are getting air sucked in  
instead of fuel, and worse, the fuel can drain all the way back to  
the tank when it's shut off.  You have to crank forever, eh?

The preheater thermostat can leak, as can the o-ring on the lift pump  
fitting, causing the pump to fill with air every time you shut off --  
this gets pushed through the filter and into the IP, hence the no  
start condition.

Chain is identical to a 617 for all intents and purposes.  Watch when  
you put the chain tensioner back in that the seal stays up on the  
flange -- if it falls off and crimps, it will run fine but dump out  
about 6 qts of oil in 10 miles -- we did this on the SDL.  What a mess!

Have fun!

Peter



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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

Under no circumstances.

Do a leak-down test if you want to see where the compression is  
going.  If that cylinder fires, the gauge will explode in your face.

Peter


On May 30, 2008, at 12:16 AM, Harry Watkins wrote:

 Jim wrote:

 Standard compression test lore is to shoot some oil into the cylinder
 and test it again, significant changes point to rings.

 I asked about doing that many years ago because I always did it with
 gasser's.  Someone on the old list warned that the oil could act as  
 fuel and
 a combustion could occur.  I decided to follow that advice so I  
 still don't
 know.  Is it a common practice with diesels?

 Thanks
 Harry

 On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 11:03 PM, Jim Cathey  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Also - since the white smoke stops as it gets hot - which state is
 correct, or does the difference tell us something?

 The difference could indeed tell someone something.  But perhaps
 not me.  I've just heard/read that a compression test is only
 meaningful when hot.  I interpret that to say that while it can
 pass when cold, 'failing' when cold isn't failure.  You could
 have a gunky valve that's not sealing when cold, etc.  Standard
 compression test lore is to shoot some oil into the cylinder
 and test it again, significant changes point to rings, else
 it's head gasket and/or valves at fault.

 I had bad white smoke on the 190D when I had the IP timed
 off by one spline.  A sticky centrifugal advance mechanism
 could cause some sorts of misbehavior, though that's certainly
 a robust enough mechanism not to be particularly prone to it.

 -- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

Chain stretch is 3 degrees - OK?

We'll try leaving the turbo on the head - this 124 is very tight!

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 5:24 PM, Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 You can take the manifold off and leave the turbo in the car if you
 want -- this is how we ended up doing the head gasket on my brothers
 (broken exhaust manifold stud). Take the crossover pipe and the
 exhaust return to turbo off and you should be able to get to the
 studs.  It's quite tight in the W124, we were working on my brother's
 SDL which has much more room.  We pulled the head and turbo together
 on my 300D.  WATCH that you have someone under the car to push the
 oil pipe out of the block and that it doesn't hang on anything, else
 you will bend the crap out of it and have to replace it.

 The trick with the manifold studs is that they are 6mm studs, tighten
 accordingly (20 ft/lbs), not as tight as you can pull them.  The
 gasket is actually a spring form sheet metal seal, and if you mash it
 flat, it fails and leaks.

 For your lack of fuel, replace ALL the fuel lines on the suction side
 (this includes the ones to the fuel pre-heater).  If any are
 original, they are now leaking and you are getting air sucked in
 instead of fuel, and worse, the fuel can drain all the way back to
 the tank when it's shut off.  You have to crank forever, eh?


Yes - we've already replaced ALL the hoses -

 The preheater thermostat can leak, as can the o-ring on the lift pump
 fitting, causing the pump to fill with air every time you shut off --
 this gets pushed through the filter and into the IP, hence the no
 start condition.


Still lots of cranking - sometimes.  The pre-heater was leaking, but
has a new end fitting and o-ring now, so either's another leak we
haven't found yet, or that o-ringon the lift pump is bad - I'll have
to look that one up.

 Chain is identical to a 617 for all intents and purposes.  Watch when
 you put the chain tensioner back in that the seal stays up on the
 flange -- if it falls off and crimps, it will run fine but dump out
 about 6 qts of oil in 10 miles -- we did this on the SDL.  What a mess!

I assume we have to pull the chain tensioner to get the head off?

Do we only have to pull the top pin of the top chain guide, or find
snd pull the other end as well?


 Have fun!

Definitely - LOTS of FUN!

  FYI - the anti-freeze/coolant was very orange - almost rust colored.
First time I've seen this condition.

-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

Both pins have to come out -- one is the pivot for the belt  
tensioner.  3 degrees is OK, but more than 4 means it's time to  
replace.  You must remove the cam sprocket to take the head off, so  
yes, the tensioner comes out.

Remember to get the glow plug wire brackets on when you put the  
intake back on, they will fall down and short the glow plugs otherwise!

I'm sure the o-ring on the lift pump is leaking -- you can check if  
you like this way:  park on a steep grade nose down.  It will drip  
fuel, especially if there is some pressure in the tank.  Park nose up  
and it won't start the next morning.  Hard to duplicate in the shop,  
it require a very large angle to get it to leak.  Not so much to make  
it leak back into the tank, though.  Annoyingly, the fuel filter will  
stay half full

Peter


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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

OK - that coinsides with the report from the PO - park with the nose
up and a half tank or less, and it lots of cranking to start in the
morning. So, where is this o-ring on/in the lift pump?

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 6:06 PM, Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Both pins have to come out -- one is the pivot for the belt
 tensioner.  3 degrees is OK, but more than 4 means it's time to
 replace.  You must remove the cam sprocket to take the head off, so
 yes, the tensioner comes out.

 Remember to get the glow plug wire brackets on when you put the
 intake back on, they will fall down and short the glow plugs otherwise!

 I'm sure the o-ring on the lift pump is leaking -- you can check if
 you like this way:  park on a steep grade nose down.  It will drip
 fuel, especially if there is some pressure in the tank.  Park nose up
 and it won't start the next morning.  Hard to duplicate in the shop,
 it require a very large angle to get it to leak.  Not so much to make
 it leak back into the tank, though.  Annoyingly, the fuel filter will
 stay half full

 Peter

-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

Behind the inlet fitting (it swivels, I think).  You will have to  
inspect to figure out how to get the fitting off, I've not had to do  
that repair, but my friend the mechanic had several, identical  
symptoms you have.

Peter


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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

Thanks - that's close enough to get me started.

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 7:37 PM, Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Behind the inlet fitting (it swivels, I think).  You will have to
 inspect to figure out how to get the fitting off, I've not had to do
 that repair, but my friend the mechanic had several, identical
 symptoms you have.

 Peter

-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

2008-05-30 Thread Harry Watkins

OK Don wrote:

OK - that coinsides with the report from the PO - park with the nose
up and a half tank or less, and it lots of cranking to start in the
morning. So, where is this o-ring on/in the lift pump?

Don, one of my SDLs had this problem and it was one or two delivery valve
seals leaking.  Replaced them all and problem went away.

Thanks
Harry

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 6:20 PM, OK Don [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 OK - that coinsides with the report from the PO - park with the nose
 up and a half tank or less, and it lots of cranking to start in the
 morning. So, where is this o-ring on/in the lift pump?

 On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 6:06 PM, Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
  Both pins have to come out -- one is the pivot for the belt
  tensioner.  3 degrees is OK, but more than 4 means it's time to
  replace.  You must remove the cam sprocket to take the head off, so
  yes, the tensioner comes out.
 
  Remember to get the glow plug wire brackets on when you put the
  intake back on, they will fall down and short the glow plugs otherwise!
 
  I'm sure the o-ring on the lift pump is leaking -- you can check if
  you like this way:  park on a steep grade nose down.  It will drip
  fuel, especially if there is some pressure in the tank.  Park nose up
  and it won't start the next morning.  Hard to duplicate in the shop,
  it require a very large angle to get it to leak.  Not so much to make
  it leak back into the tank, though.  Annoyingly, the fuel filter will
  stay half full
 
  Peter

 --
 OK Don, KD5NRO
 Norman, OK
 There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
 -Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain
 '90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
 Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

2008-05-30 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin

aint going to happen, you would have all the metal fuel lines off anyway 
when doing this, a little oil in one cylinder is not going to start it

Harry Watkins wrote:
 Jim wrote:
 
 Standard compression test lore is to shoot some oil into the cylinder
 and test it again, significant changes point to rings.
 
 I asked about doing that many years ago because I always did it with
 gasser's.  Someone on the old list warned that the oil could act as fuel and
 a combustion could occur.  I decided to follow that advice so I still don't
 know.  Is it a common practice with diesels?
 
 Thanks
 Harry
 
 On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 11:03 PM, Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Also - since the white smoke stops as it gets hot - which state is
 correct, or does the difference tell us something?
 The difference could indeed tell someone something.  But perhaps
 not me.  I've just heard/read that a compression test is only
 meaningful when hot.  I interpret that to say that while it can
 pass when cold, 'failing' when cold isn't failure.  You could
 have a gunky valve that's not sealing when cold, etc.  Standard
 compression test lore is to shoot some oil into the cylinder
 and test it again, significant changes point to rings, else
 it's head gasket and/or valves at fault.

 I had bad white smoke on the 190D when I had the IP timed
 off by one spline.  A sticky centrifugal advance mechanism
 could cause some sorts of misbehavior, though that's certainly
 a robust enough mechanism not to be particularly prone to it.

 -- Jim


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-- 
Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK
  94 E420, 92 300SD, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D, 89 560SEL,
  89 260E, 87 300SDL, 86 560SL, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro,
  84 190D, 84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 80 240D, 76 240D,
  76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250, 66 220SEb
http://www.okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

In this case, all the injection lines are off, all the glow plugs are
out, etc. It isn't going to start, but a little too much oil, and I'd
have a dead gauge at the very least, not that it's worth much to begin
with. I can't figure out why #3 wouldn't hold pressure in the gauge -
it worked fine in the subsequent cylinders, then I went back to #3,
repeated the test, and got the same results (definition of insane?).
Maybe there's carbon in the prechamber that's opening the Shraeder
valve?  Maybe I'll see something when we get the head off this
weekend.

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 11:23 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 aint going to happen, you would have all the metal fuel lines off anyway
 when doing this, a little oil in one cylinder is not going to start it


-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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[MBZ] '87 300D saga

This is about the 300D that my son bought (cheap - Kaleb prices) with
a crunched fender (fixed now). It blows white smoke until it's about
warmed up, misses about every second when idling, and Kaleb says (he
was PO twice removed) that it needs a head gasket.
It is also hard to start sometimes - acts like an air leak in a Diesel
line. We replaces all the rubber hoses under the hood (some were
original), and routed the lines properly (supply and return lines were
reversed, as were the lines to the fuel pre-heater). Still had a leak.
There was always standing fuel on top of the IP, so we pulled the
manifold today, and replaced the o-rings around the delivery valves.
Since we were there, we pulled all the glow plugs (all measured 1.1
Ohms), bought a Diesel compression tester at Harbor Freight, and
measured the compression (very cold engine, not started for a week).
The results were:
#1 - 200psi
#2 - 360psi
#3 - hit 160, then back to zero before the next compression stroke
#4 - 360psi
#5 - 360psi
#6 - 360psi
So - what to do next?  Look for another head (this is a #14, bit no
pressure in the top radiator hose), look for another engine, buy a
head gasket set from Rusty, pull the head and see what we find?

Kaleb - what do you have to sell/trade? want a 240D for the SDL?


-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

2008-05-29 Thread Jim Cathey

 measured the compression (very cold engine, not started for a week).
 The results were:
 #1 - 200psi
 #2 - 360psi
 #3 - hit 160, then back to zero before the next compression stroke
 #4 - 360psi
 #5 - 360psi
 #6 - 360psi
 So - what to do next?

Test it again hot.  Cold compression tests aren't necessarily
indicative of the true state of things.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

Crap - the means we have to put it all back together, get it hot, then
take it back apart (can't get to all the glow plugs with the intake
on).
Also - since the white smoke stops as it gets hot - which state is
correct, or does the difference tell us something?

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 9:24 PM, Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 measured the compression (very cold engine, not started for a week).
 The results were:
 #1 - 200psi
 #2 - 360psi
 #3 - hit 160, then back to zero before the next compression stroke
 #4 - 360psi
 #5 - 360psi
 #6 - 360psi
 So - what to do next?

 Test it again hot.  Cold compression tests aren't necessarily
 indicative of the true state of things.

 -- Jim

-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

2008-05-29 Thread Mitch Haley

#3: Why should the gauge leak down from 160? 
Was there a chunk of soot in the shraeder valve?
I'd definitely retest that cylinder, since the gauge was working
fine for the later cylinders. I bet Kleb is right and you've got
a head gasket problem, right up front where it's common to fail. 

OK Don wrote:
 
 This is about the 300D that my son bought (cheap - Kaleb prices) with
 a crunched fender (fixed now). It blows white smoke until it's about
 warmed up, misses about every second when idling, and Kaleb says (he
 was PO twice removed) that it needs a head gasket.
 It is also hard to start sometimes - acts like an air leak in a Diesel
 line. We replaces all the rubber hoses under the hood (some were
 original), and routed the lines properly (supply and return lines were
 reversed, as were the lines to the fuel pre-heater). Still had a leak.
 There was always standing fuel on top of the IP, so we pulled the
 manifold today, and replaced the o-rings around the delivery valves.
 Since we were there, we pulled all the glow plugs (all measured 1.1
 Ohms), bought a Diesel compression tester at Harbor Freight, and
 measured the compression (very cold engine, not started for a week).
 The results were:
 #1 - 200psi
 #2 - 360psi
 #3 - hit 160, then back to zero before the next compression stroke
 #4 - 360psi
 #5 - 360psi
 #6 - 360psi
 So - what to do next?  Look for another head (this is a #14, bit no
 pressure in the top radiator hose), look for another engine, buy a
 head gasket set from Rusty, pull the head and see what we find?
 
 Kaleb - what do you have to sell/trade? want a 240D for the SDL?
 
 --
 OK Don, KD5NRO
 Norman, OK
 There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
 -Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain
 '90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
 Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)
 
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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

2008-05-29 Thread Peter Frederick

You have a blown head gasket.  Replace it before you hydrolock #1 and  
bend the rods.

Did you torque the delivery valves correctly?

Did you check the chain for stretch?  You need to, it's probably 4  
degrees or more long and will give you all the late injection  
problems.

You will need to carefully inspect the head when it's off -- look for  
cracks around the valves and prechamber.  However, cracks are usually  
obvious, and almost always blow into the coolant, so if there is no  
oil in there and no cold pressure, the head is good.  The gasket is  
shot -- they typically leak between #3 and #4 and out #1 into the oil  
passage across the front and into the bolt holes on #6.

Compression isn't great, but it's not terrible either, should start  
right up.

Check that you do get voltage on the glow plugs -- relays have been  
known to fail.

The head gasket isn't bad on that car if you have a lift.  Wire tie  
the cam sproket to the chain, remove intake and associated stuff,  
pull the pins for the top chain guide, drain coolant, remove line for  
the turbo oil feed from the side of the block, and pull cam sproket  
and head bolts.

You will need a set of new head bolts, they are stretch bolts and I  
would NOT re-use them, you are only asking for doing the job again.

Test the nozzles while you are at it.

If you have significant blowby, do the valves too if you have the $$  
-- you may end up with a nearly new engine.  Mine looked new except  
for the cracked head at 275,000.

Peter


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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga

I checked it three times, removed and checked the Shraeder valve each
time. Maybe the seat in the glow plug hole was dirty, though I tried
to clean it with a rag on the end of a Phillips screw driver. It did
hit 160 right away, for what that's worth.

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 9:44 PM, Mitch Haley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 #3: Why should the gauge leak down from 160?
 Was there a chunk of soot in the shraeder valve?
 I'd definitely retest that cylinder, since the gauge was working
 fine for the later cylinders. I bet Kleb is right and you've got
 a head gasket problem, right up front where it's common to fail.


-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain
'90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply
Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go)

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300D saga