[MBZ] 300td sls troubles
i wrote the wrong word here So what kind of damage could be done to the pump? i meant VALVE i don't buy that about the bad spheres causing valve problems but we shall see... when i bought my car years ago, the spheres were bad and i didn't replace them for a month or two, i'm sure then it was fine for a number of years thanks, xx rick Rick Hawkins On Apr 18, 2014, at 11:57 PM, mercedes-requ...@okiebenz.com wrote: From: Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net Date: April 18, 2014 10:05:26 PM EDT To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] sls troubles 300td 1982 Reply-To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Rick Hawkins Java wrote: So what kind of damage could be done to the pump? it's a pretty simple device pounding around of the pistons or something the lever is moved all the time when you drive around and hit bumps, no matter how heavy or light you use it, i would think lack of the dampening action of the spheres? i would think a hose would fail before the valve It's the control valve that gets damaged by the pressure spikes. When I bought my 2.3-16, it had dead spheres and a valve that wouldn't hold pressure. I got a used valve from somebody who downgraded to lowering springs, and new spheres. When those spheres died, I let the tire pressure down to 20 psi and drove it carefully 6 miles to the cottage to store it. When I got there, the suspension was flat again, that 'gentle' drive to the lake killed the replacement control valve. IIRC, my W201 uses S123 spheres and S124 control valve, and the 124 valve isn't rebuildable. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] 300td sls troubles
i don't buy that about the bad spheres causing valve problems Pressure spikes. Pretty nasty stuff. Think hydroforming... -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] 300td sls troubles
So I went to a dealership for a Club High Mileage event and had an array of seasoned techs work on my suspension problem. :) The consensus was that the bouncy rear end was NOT related to the air cells (spheres), since they are new. We lowered the ride height by adjusting the rear valve linkage, from 16 to a litle over 14 as measured from the center of the rear wheel hub to the wheel arch. Then we lowered the car to the floor and ran the engine while a couple burly techs sat on the deck with the tailgate raised. The level of the rear dropped down, but after 5 minutes there was no perceptible rise. We put it back on the lift and inspected the rear struts, which were German OEM and quite clean (e.g., not original to the car). The springs measured 17mm in diameter, but the correct OEM springs are supposed to be only 15.95, so obviously these are replacement springs. Could these incorrect springs be the source of my problem? Or is there more likely to be a problem with the rear suspension valve? SLS fluid is recirculating normally and there are no leaks in the system, but the failure of the rear end to rebound while under load may suggest a problem with the valve. Thoughts anyone? On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 8:17 AM, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net wrote: i don't buy that about the bad spheres causing valve problems Pressure spikes. Pretty nasty stuff. Think hydroforming... -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] 300td sls troubles
Andrew, From my experience with SLS, I believe that you've got leveling valve issues. Here's my logic: If changing the leveling valve settings causes the suspension height to change, the struts must be good. If by some chance they were bad, it wouldn't raise at all, assuming the seals on the pistons were bad, which is the only part inside of them. From what you describe the inly possible variable is the leveling valve. Rebuild/replace the leveling valve. Dan On Apr 19, 2014, at 2:35 PM, Andrew Strasfogel wrote: So I went to a dealership for a Club High Mileage event and had an array of seasoned techs work on my suspension problem. :) The consensus was that the bouncy rear end was NOT related to the air cells (spheres), since they are new. We lowered the ride height by adjusting the rear valve linkage, from 16 to a litle over 14 as measured from the center of the rear wheel hub to the wheel arch. Then we lowered the car to the floor and ran the engine while a couple burly techs sat on the deck with the tailgate raised. The level of the rear dropped down, but after 5 minutes there was no perceptible rise. We put it back on the lift and inspected the rear struts, which were German OEM and quite clean (e.g., not original to the car). The springs measured 17mm in diameter, but the correct OEM springs are supposed to be only 15.95, so obviously these are replacement springs. Could these incorrect springs be the source of my problem? Or is there more likely to be a problem with the rear suspension valve? SLS fluid is recirculating normally and there are no leaks in the system, but the failure of the rear end to rebound while under load may suggest a problem with the valve. Thoughts anyone? On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 8:17 AM, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net wrote: i don't buy that about the bad spheres causing valve problems Pressure spikes. Pretty nasty stuff. Think hydroforming... -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] 300td sls troubles
Maybe the pump is not providing enough pressure. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 19, 2014, at 1:39 PM, Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com wrote: Andrew, From my experience with SLS, I believe that you've got leveling valve issues. Here's my logic: If changing the leveling valve settings causes the suspension height to change, the struts must be good. If by some chance they were bad, it wouldn't raise at all, assuming the seals on the pistons were bad, which is the only part inside of them. From what you describe the inly possible variable is the leveling valve. Rebuild/replace the leveling valve. Dan On Apr 19, 2014, at 2:35 PM, Andrew Strasfogel wrote: So I went to a dealership for a Club High Mileage event and had an array of seasoned techs work on my suspension problem. :) The consensus was that the bouncy rear end was NOT related to the air cells (spheres), since they are new. We lowered the ride height by adjusting the rear valve linkage, from 16 to a litle over 14 as measured from the center of the rear wheel hub to the wheel arch. Then we lowered the car to the floor and ran the engine while a couple burly techs sat on the deck with the tailgate raised. The level of the rear dropped down, but after 5 minutes there was no perceptible rise. We put it back on the lift and inspected the rear struts, which were German OEM and quite clean (e.g., not original to the car). The springs measured 17mm in diameter, but the correct OEM springs are supposed to be only 15.95, so obviously these are replacement springs. Could these incorrect springs be the source of my problem? Or is there more likely to be a problem with the rear suspension valve? SLS fluid is recirculating normally and there are no leaks in the system, but the failure of the rear end to rebound while under load may suggest a problem with the valve. Thoughts anyone? On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 8:17 AM, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net wrote: i don't buy that about the bad spheres causing valve problems Pressure spikes. Pretty nasty stuff. Think hydroforming... -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] 300td sls troubles
It pounds the base pressure and overpressure relief valves and their springs into oblivion. It will eventually also cause strut seal failure, lower balljoint failure, and top strut bushing failure. On Apr 19, 2014, Rick Hawkins wrote: i don't buy that about the bad spheres causing valve problems ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] 300td sls troubles
Sounds like they further misadjusted the linkage. The valve is working if they were able to influence the resting height. The system's operation is clearly described in 32-501. It should be adjusted so that the unloaded vehicle's resting height is determined only by the base pressure. The height control valve should only activate if the rear end is deflected significantly (a couple of inches). But if they've overadjusted the lever, it may not be activating when load is added to the car. When moving the height control lever (disconnected from the torsion bar linkage), you can feel the point at which the base pressure circuit takes over from the height control circuit. There's a very subtle notch feeling as the height control lever strikes the filling ball valve. Remember there are two separate control modes: the base pressure circuit (when functioning correctly) completely overrides the height control lever in the downwards direction after a certain point. You can put the lever all the way to the drain position and the car will not fall below normal resting height. The base pressure circuit actually moves the ball valve out of range for the control lever to prevent loss of base pressure. We are talking about adjustments of a few millimetres here. This is not something that should be done by people who haven't read 32-501. D. On Apr 19, 2014, at 11:39, Andrew wrote: So I went to a dealership for a Club High Mileage event and had an array of seasoned techs work on my suspension problem. :) The consensus was that the bouncy rear end was NOT related to the air cells (spheres), since they are new. We lowered the ride height by adjusting the rear valve linkage, from 16 to a litle over 14 as measured from the center of the rear wheel hub to the wheel arch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] 300td sls troubles
One thing also to look at it, and I presume your mechs did this, is the condition of the plastic bushings on the turnbuckle linkage. If those are not solid or are missing it will not allow the system to function properly. Have you ascertained if the pump is actually pumping pressurized fluid into the system? --R On 4/19/14 4:24 PM, David Bruckmann wrote: Sounds like they further misadjusted the linkage. The valve is working if they were able to influence the resting height. The system's operation is clearly described in 32-501. It should be adjusted so that the unloaded vehicle's resting height is determined only by the base pressure. The height control valve should only activate if the rear end is deflected significantly (a couple of inches). But if they've overadjusted the lever, it may not be activating when load is added to the car. When moving the height control lever (disconnected from the torsion bar linkage), you can feel the point at which the base pressure circuit takes over from the height control circuit. There's a very subtle notch feeling as the height control lever strikes the filling ball valve. Remember there are two separate control modes: the base pressure circuit (when functioning correctly) completely overrides the height control lever in the downwards direction after a certain point. You can put the lever all the way to the drain position and the car will not fall below normal resting height. The base pressure circuit actually moves the ball valve out of range for the control lever to prevent loss of base pressure. We are talking about adjustments of a few millimetres here. This is not something that should be done by people who haven't read 32-501. D. On Apr 19, 2014, at 11:39, Andrew wrote: So I went to a dealership for a Club High Mileage event and had an array of seasoned techs work on my suspension problem. :) The consensus was that the bouncy rear end was NOT related to the air cells (spheres), since they are new. We lowered the ride height by adjusting the rear valve linkage, from 16 to a litle over 14 as measured from the center of the rear wheel hub to the wheel arch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] 300td sls troubles
David Bruckmann wrote: Sounds like they further misadjusted the linkage. The valve is working if they were able to influence the resting height. The system's operation is clearly described in 32-501. It should be adjusted so that the unloaded vehicle's resting height is determined only by the base pressure. The height control valve should only activate if the rear end is deflected significantly (a couple of inches). But if they've overadjusted the lever, it may not be activating when load is added to the car. When moving the height control lever (disconnected from the torsion bar linkage), you can feel the point at which the base pressure circuit takes over from the height control circuit. There's a very subtle notch feeling as the height control lever strikes the filling ball valve. Remember there are two separate control modes: the base pressure circuit (when functioning correctly) completely overrides the height control lever in the downwards direction after a certain point. You can put the lever all the way to the drain position and the car will not fall below normal resting height. The base pressure circuit actually moves the ball valve out of range for the control lever to prevent loss of base pressure. We are talking about adjustments of a few millimetres here. This is not something that should be done by people who haven't read 32-501. D. Could the problem be that it was too high with (wrong) springs and base pressure, so they adjusted it to drain and it lowered but then wouldn't pump up? Andrew, has this car been bouncing like a pogo stick since you got it, or is that a recent development? Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] 300td sls troubles
Since I installed new spheres it rides less harshly. I don't notice excessive bounciness, but it fails the bounce test at rest (won't recover quickly enough after pressure is applied to the rear bumper). David: Are you saying that all components are sound, and that applying 32-501 will solve my problem? On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 4:50 PM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: David Bruckmann wrote: Sounds like they further misadjusted the linkage. The valve is working if they were able to influence the resting height. The system's operation is clearly described in 32-501. It should be adjusted so that the unloaded vehicle's resting height is determined only by the base pressure. The height control valve should only activate if the rear end is deflected significantly (a couple of inches). But if they've overadjusted the lever, it may not be activating when load is added to the car. When moving the height control lever (disconnected from the torsion bar linkage), you can feel the point at which the base pressure circuit takes over from the height control circuit. There's a very subtle notch feeling as the height control lever strikes the filling ball valve. Remember there are two separate control modes: the base pressure circuit (when functioning correctly) completely overrides the height control lever in the downwards direction after a certain point. You can put the lever all the way to the drain position and the car will not fall below normal resting height. The base pressure circuit actually moves the ball valve out of range for the control lever to prevent loss of base pressure. We are talking about adjustments of a few millimetres here. This is not something that should be done by people who haven't read 32-501. D. Could the problem be that it was too high with (wrong) springs and base pressure, so they adjusted it to drain and it lowered but then wouldn't pump up? Andrew, has this car been bouncing like a pogo stick since you got it, or is that a recent development? Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] 300td sls troubles
If the springs are too stiff the suspension will ride too high, and you'll never get the system adjusted into the proper range. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] 300td sls troubles
Andrew Strasfogel wrote: Since I installed new spheres it rides less harshly. I don't notice excessive bounciness, but it fails the bounce test at rest (won't recover quickly enough after pressure is applied to the rear bumper). Well, if it drives OK with the new spheres, I suppose you could put the old ones back on and redo the 'safety test' (see, no more boingboing) and then put the new ones back on. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] 300td sls troubles
I tossed the old spheres 3 years ago On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 6:07 PM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: Andrew Strasfogel wrote: Since I installed new spheres it rides less harshly. I don't notice excessive bounciness, but it fails the bounce test at rest (won't recover quickly enough after pressure is applied to the rear bumper). Well, if it drives OK with the new spheres, I suppose you could put the old ones back on and redo the 'safety test' (see, no more boingboing) and then put the new ones back on. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] 300td sls troubles
Andrew Strasfogel wrote: I tossed the old spheres 3 years ago I changed mine 8 years ago, so mine were probably recycled long ago too. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
