Re: [MBZ] 85 124? Really?
John Berryman wrote: On Feb 24, 2006, at 5:39 PM, Donald Snook wrote: That makes sense. A 5 speed turbo would not do much good, would it? When you clutch and shift (and thus lose RPMs) wouldn't you lose most of the turbo boost. I guess that is why we never/rarely see a 5 sp. Turbo. Donald H. Snook Makes sense because the engine makes that much more power. The engine doesn't know or care what's behind it. There would be no noticeable loss of boost unless you're in the habit of shifting from 2nd to 5th and lugging the engine. Boost is directly related to exhaust flow, the more, the more up until the waste gate says enough. If one were to power shift there would be no loss of boost. Gears are or at least should be shifted in mere fractions of a second. I think there were more regulatory issues at hand concerning turbo/ 5spd than anything else. Johnny B. I Mac Therefore I am Exhaust emissions (oxides of nitrogen I believe) on a turbo with manual transmission are WAY outside almost all limits when shifting (when there is NO load on the engine for a moment). Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi
Re: [MBZ] 85 124? Really?
That makes sense. A 5 speed turbo would not do much good, would it? When you clutch and shift (and thus lose RPMs) wouldn't you lose most of the turbo boost. I guess that is why we never/rarely see a 5 sp. Turbo. The boost will come back. Drivability might be a bit odd with deadish times after shifting, especially if you're slow, but the turbo will still do what turbos do best. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] 85 124? Really?
Jim Cathey wrote: That makes sense. A 5 speed turbo would not do much good, would it? When you clutch and shift (and thus lose RPMs) wouldn't you lose most of the turbo boost. I guess that is why we never/rarely see a 5 sp. Turbo. The boost will come back. Drivability might be a bit odd with deadish times after shifting, especially if you're slow, but the turbo will still do what turbos do best. The Mercedes turbodiesel engine does NOT mate particularly well with a manual transmission. Before the engine reaches 1600-2000 rpm, the turbo diesel engine produces very modest power and the use of a torque converter with a high stall speed (2200-2400 rpm) allows the engine to develop very high torque at slow ground speed and hence very good acceleration. A manual transmission with clutch doesn't do that so automatics are faster than manual transmissions with those engines. The automatic DOES extract a cost of poorer fuel economy, but much lower emissions. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi
Re: [MBZ] 85 124? Really?
Donald Snook wrote: That makes sense. A 5 speed turbo would not do much good, would it? When you clutch and shift (and thus lose RPMs) wouldn't you lose most of the turbo boost. I guess that is why we never/rarely see a 5 sp. Turbo. I hope to have one sometime this year. The good news is that in addition to a 190E with five speed, and a wrecked 190D turbo, I also have a variable nozzle turbocharger from a E320CDI. I'm hoping there will not be much turbo lag, the turbo can just tighten up its nozzle when I lift throttle to shift.
Re: [MBZ] 85 124? Really?
John Berryman wrote: There would be no noticeable loss of boost unless you're in the habit of shifting from 2nd to 5th and lugging the engine. Did you see the drag race videos from Finland? Both of the 5sp 603.95 W201s spew black clouds when they shift, the smoke clears when the engine regains boost after the shift. The puff of black smoke seems to last at least 1/2 second. When you do a 13.4 second 1/4 mile, you're shifting fast enough, but you still lose boost. (the large turbo might have something to do with it, both of the 5sp superturbos I've seen had Holset HX40s in them)
Re: [MBZ] 85 124? Really?
Turbo diesel motors have a type of powerband, usally from about 1500rpm's onwards there is enough boost to make the mill spin nicely. Most 4x4 turbo diesels are manual, as well most trucks are manual. Even a naturaly aspirated diesel motor will not pull that well at low revs. One question though, does the auto box in a MB turbo diesel have a different shift delay as compared to other engined Mercs? My 230E always seems to shift at relatively low revs. Hendrik who spotted a 190D in the paper today - Original Message - From: Donald Snook [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 9:09 AM Subject: [MBZ] 85 124? Really? Marshall wrote: Sort of like comparing a 190D 2.5, 5 speed with a 190D 2.5 turbo auto. The turbo blows it away - despite the automatic. That makes sense. A 5 speed turbo would not do much good, would it? When you clutch and shift (and thus lose RPMs) wouldn't you lose most of the turbo boost. I guess that is why we never/rarely see a 5 sp. Turbo. Donald H. Snook McDonald, Tinker, Skaer, Quinn Herrington, P.A. 300 West Douglas P.O. Box 207 Wichita, Kansas 67201 0207 Tel. (316) 263-5851 This confidential message may be subject to the attorney-client privilege or protected by the attorney work-product doctrine. If you have received this message in error, please delete it and notify me. ___ http://www.striplin.net For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 268.0.0/268 - Release Date: 23/02/2006
Re: [MBZ] 85 124? Really?
Hendrik Riessen wrote: Turbo diesel motors have a type of powerband, usally from about 1500rpm's onwards there is enough boost to make the mill spin nicely. Most 4x4 turbo diesels are manual, as well most trucks are manual. Even a naturaly aspirated diesel motor will not pull that well at low revs. One question though, does the auto box in a MB turbo diesel have a different shift delay as compared to other engined Mercs? My 230E always seems to shift at relatively low revs. The shift rpm is modulated by the position of the accelerator pedal/linkage in 722.3/4 and later transmissions (nor entirely sure what happens in some of the earlier ones some are similar - some aren't). It took Mercedes from 1978 until 1985 to optimize the turbodiesel and the transmission/torque converter for optimal/smooth automobile performance. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi
Re: [MBZ] 85 124? Really?
Definitely Euro. Across the pond, they got the W124 a year early, starting with the 1985 model year. They also got the '94 facelift a year early, IIRC. Lots of difference between Euro and US model years. They had a lot more options on engines, trannies, and interior appointments. There's a Euro 2.5 non-turbo on eBay at the moment with fabric upholstery and crank rear windows, among other oddities. =) -dm -- Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 08:22:26 -0600 From: OK Don [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MBZ] 85 124? Really? Euro perhaps? On 2/24/06, Donald Snook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone heard of a 1985 124 with a 603 with no turbo and a 5 Speed. WOW! I was just reading about a guy who had one. That would be a unique and fun car.
Re: [MBZ] 85 124? Really?
Donald Snook wrote: Has anyone heard of a 1985 124 with a 603 with no turbo and a 5 Speed. WOW! I was just reading about a guy who had one. That would be a unique and fun car. That was a standard configuration in much of Europe. It's a 109 hp engine, rather fun with a 5 speed transmission (0-62 in 13.7 sec - that's faster than an '82-'85 617.95 equipped 300D) but NO match for a 603.96 turbo engine even with an automatic (10.9 sec). Fuel consumption on the highway is rather better than the turbo version with an automatic (mostly because of the 5 speed - with an automatic it was almost the same as the turbo). The non-turbo lost a lot of power as you reached altitude much above 3000'. Sort of like comparing a 190D 2.5, 5 speed with a 190D 2.5 turbo auto. The turbo blows it away - despite the automatic. The manual climate control standard on most Euro versions is MUCH more reliable (fewer or no vacuum pods) than the US deluxe versions, but the Nippondenso compressor for the AC (if so equipped - many Euro cars - especially diesels, weren't AC equipped) is just as expensive to maintain. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi
[MBZ] 85 124? Really?
Marshall wrote: Sort of like comparing a 190D 2.5, 5 speed with a 190D 2.5 turbo auto. The turbo blows it away - despite the automatic. That makes sense. A 5 speed turbo would not do much good, would it? When you clutch and shift (and thus lose RPMs) wouldn't you lose most of the turbo boost. I guess that is why we never/rarely see a 5 sp. Turbo. Donald H. Snook McDonald, Tinker, Skaer, Quinn Herrington, P.A. 300 West Douglas P.O. Box 207 Wichita, Kansas 67201 0207 Tel. (316) 263-5851 This confidential message may be subject to the attorney-client privilege or protected by the attorney work-product doctrine. If you have received this message in error, please delete it and notify me.
Re: [MBZ] 85 124? Really?
On Feb 24, 2006, at 5:39 PM, Donald Snook wrote: That makes sense. A 5 speed turbo would not do much good, would it? When you clutch and shift (and thus lose RPMs) wouldn't you lose most of the turbo boost. I guess that is why we never/rarely see a 5 sp. Turbo. Donald H. Snook Makes sense because the engine makes that much more power. The engine doesn't know or care what's behind it. There would be no noticeable loss of boost unless you're in the habit of shifting from 2nd to 5th and lugging the engine. Boost is directly related to exhaust flow, the more, the more up until the waste gate says enough. If one were to power shift there would be no loss of boost. Gears are or at least should be shifted in mere fractions of a second. I think there were more regulatory issues at hand concerning turbo/ 5spd than anything else. Johnny B. I Mac Therefore I am
