Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
Tyler,
Found most of your data.
At 2400 RPM, Torque = 195 ft lbs
Rear axle ratio = 2.65
Curb weight = 1665 kg.
Stall speed = ???
First gear ratio = ???
I remember reading about a torque converter test whereby you hold the
brake down and floor the accelerator and the engine RPM should reach the
stall speed, which was listed, but now I cannot find that test.
Max
-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com
[mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of tyler
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 5:23 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
Jamie,
I'm also towing a sailboat ('74 Catalina 22)- I highly recommend one as
it's cheap and very well made. It only weighs about 2200lbs, but the
trailer and gear bring it to about 3500. I'm currently towing it with a
beat up '87 Volvo 740 turbo wagon that tows it very well, but I think
the W124 would be more comfortable and fuel efficient. I am also curious
also about the Mercedes' ability to pull up a ramp. The Volvo has been
able to pull the boat up even the steepest of ramps without issues. It
has an automatic with 2.45:1 1st gear, and a 3.73:1 rear axle with an
Eaton G80 locker- and the engine makes 187 ft*lb (253 Nm) of torque at
2900 rpm. Does anyone have the gear ratio and torque specs for the W124?
Is it available with a locking or limited slip rear differential? I
would assume if it has just as low or lower gears, a locker or LSD, and
as much torque then climbing the ramp shouldn't be an issue.
I am mostly worried about the transmission or brakes in the W124 burning
up going over mountains.
For pulling up a ramp, I think one could calculate reasonably well the
steepest ramp you could pull a given boat up given (1) the torque of the
engine at the stall speed of the torque converter, (2) the ratio of 1st
gear times the rear differential, (3) the tire outside diameter, and (4)
the combined weight of the entire rig. It's #1 that I expect to be
hardest to find...
Searching online, I found that my Volvo has a 2700rpm stall speed torque
converter and makes about 175 ft*lb of torque at this rpm - or about
1599 ft*lb at the rear axle. With a 12.5in tire radius, this is about
1535 lbs of forward thrust. Fully loaded will all of my gear, the car
and boat probably weigh 7,000lbs.
So:
Force = weight * sin(ramp angle)
ramp angle = arcsin(force/weight) = 0.22 radians = 12.61 degrees
So in theory I can probably pull up a 12.61 degree ramp. According to
BoatUS, most ramps are designed for a 6:1 slope (arctan(1/6)=9.46
degrees), so I have a good extra margin of ability, although without a
locking diff traction would probably come into play first. If someone
can help me find those same numbers for the W124 300TD, I will redo the
calculation for it.
Tyler
Jaime Kopchinski wrote:
Hi Tyler,John gives excellent information... I just installed a
factory-like
euro hitch on my 95 E320 wagon, with rated 2100kg load. Thats
4600lbs! I'm
still searching for my towable toy (a sailboat), but I'm looking at
for
3500lbs as my maximum. Its quite a bit of weight. In preparation for
towing that weight, I've already gone over my brakes (ended up
replacing
just about everything) and changing my trans fluid and filter. My
cooling
system is in good shape, with a recent radiator. My only concern is
the
car's ability to pull the boat and trailer up a launch ramp.
With some preventative maintenance, common sense, and good trailer
brakes, I
think you'll be fine.
Jaime
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Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
The guy I saw with the Blazer didn't have enough tongue weight and as the boat left the water the rear tires on the Blazer got light... Just remember to keep your tongue weight kinda heavy until you get out of the water and you're right the locker is probably as good as 4wd, I dunno if I'd go so far as to say better, most 4wds have low range which makes a world of difference... -Curt Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 19:28:03 -0700 From: Tyler casi...@usermail.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon? To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Message-ID: 3c66f348-6301-474c-8780-10b65a05a...@usermail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes I think I did mention than an LSD or locker is required? With the eaton G80 locker in my Volvo, I have never slipped the rear tires even for a second- even when I was backed down with the water over the rear bumper on algae and sand covered ramps. I do think a locker is at least as good as regular open diff 4wd on a boat ramp, since there's a lot more weight on the rear axle than the front due to the tongue weight and incline. I have pulled a 4,000 lb boat up a ramp with a Volvo 760 Turbo Diesel that was without a locker- and it was extremely difficult due to wheelspin, and did slide sideways a bit before I could get it to start moving forwards. I don't think I'd want to tow any boat over 2,000lbs again without a locker or 4wd. With a locker and good tires, the limit is probably torque rather than traction. I don't know what lockers or LSD options there are for W124s and W123s. Would the 190E 16v LSD work? I prefer a real locker to an LSD, but either is better than nothing. Another thing that helps a lot with a sailboat is an extending trailer tongue, which will keep your rear tires on cleaner and drier pavement- as well as protect your car from saltwater damage. I paid a welder just last weekend to replace my extending tongue, which was rusted solid. Sincerely, Tyler 1987 190D Turbo Biodiesel -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20091015/4a2e70a2/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
I remember reading about a torque converter test whereby you hold the brake down and floor the accelerator and the engine RPM should reach the stall speed, which was listed, but now I cannot find that test. That's the test. And if the motor doesn't reach stall speed, and is not otherwise puny feeling, it could be that the torque converter is broken. Our 450SL had stripped stator splines on the front of the transmission, so the TC couldn't convert torque, nor could the engine reach the official stall speed. Was a dog off the line, felt fine at highway speed. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
OK, so I'm not mis-remembering, but what is the source for the stall speed number? Is it in the service manual or is it only in the transmission manual? Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Jim Cathey Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:28 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon? I remember reading about a torque converter test whereby you hold the brake down and floor the accelerator and the engine RPM should reach the stall speed, which was listed, but now I cannot find that test. That's the test. And if the motor doesn't reach stall speed, and is not otherwise puny feeling, it could be that the torque converter is broken. Our 450SL had stripped stator splines on the front of the transmission, so the TC couldn't convert torque, nor could the engine reach the official stall speed. Was a dog off the line, felt fine at highway speed. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 7:28 PM, Tyler casi...@usermail.com wrote: I don't know what lockers or LSD options there are for W124s and W123s. Would the 190E 16v LSD work? I prefer a real locker to an LSD, but either is better than nothing. No 124s came from the factory with LSD, only electronic traction control (mostly found in 500Es). The LSD from the 190E 2.3-16 does drop right in, but the final drive ratio is totally wrong. Keep in mind, also, that LSDs wear out fast and a used one is likely to be not much better than an open diff. Rebuilding one requires special tools. For a full discussion read this thread: http://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w124/224048-limited-slip-differentials-w124s.html AMGDave is Dave Meimann, probably the most knowledgeable guy in America on performance mods for the '87 300D. Alex Chamberlain ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 7:59 AM, Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com wrote: No 124s came from the factory with LSD, only electronic traction control (mostly found in 500Es). Fingers got ahead of my brain. I meant to write that no 124s came from the factory *to the USA* with LSD except those with traction control as well via the ASD system, and that is a rare option---most USA spec cars with traction control were 500Es, and used an electronic system. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
Thanks for the link. This sounds like a major obstacle- I don't think I will look for an MB tow vehicle unless I get my hands on a working differential first. Tyler Alex Chamberlain wrote: On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 7:28 PM, Tyler casi...@usermail.com wrote: I don't know what lockers or LSD options there are for W124s and W123s. Would the 190E 16v LSD work? I prefer a real locker to an LSD, but either is better than nothing. No 124s came from the factory with LSD, only electronic traction control (mostly found in 500Es). The LSD from the 190E 2.3-16 does drop right in, but the final drive ratio is totally wrong. Keep in mind, also, that LSDs wear out fast and a used one is likely to be not much better than an open diff. Rebuilding one requires special tools. For a full discussion read this thread: http://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w124/224048-limited-slip-differentials-w124s.html AMGDave is Dave Meimann, probably the most knowledgeable guy in America on performance mods for the '87 300D. Alex Chamberlain ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
I have installed my euro hitch (if anyone needs the factory directions give a shout) but haven't yet installed the factory wiring harness, and have not yet towed anything. I think that the maximum rating for my hitch is 1700kg (trailer brakes required above 750kg). I did have a euro hitch on my 123 wagon (NA engine, 5 speed transmission) and did use it for towing my ~3000lb (~1360kg) sail boat. It towed like a dream, especially when the SLS was working. One sphere failed, car bucked like a bronco only when towing, replace both spheres and it was smooth as silk again. That car was rated for 1500kg max, again trailer brakes required above 750kg. Confession: I do not have trailer brakes on my sailboat trailer, but never had a problem towing the boat, including a drive from Louisville KY to Charleston SC via the mountains. Braking and brake-fade where never an issue. The 124 factory instructions call for replacing the under-engine noise encapsulation shield with one that allows more air flow. An external transmission cooler with fan is required for loads over 1500kg if you also have air conditioning. I'd definitely change the transmission fluid/filter at the 15k mile intervals! Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of tyler Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 5:41 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon? Does anyone know if a W124 wagon (1987 300TD) can safely tow a 3500lb trailer? Would the transmission be up to it if a larger cooler was added? Could the engine cooling system keep up with such a load? What is the factory rated towing capacity? Tyler ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
John, what is your source for the 2100kg? My technical data book says 1700kg. Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of John Robbins Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 6:06 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon? tyler wrote: What is the factory rated towing capacity? In Europe it's 750kg without trailer brakes, 2100kg with. Sedans are 1500kg with brakes. In the US... 0 kg. No chassis/brake/driveline differences that anybody knows about so I would roll with the European ratings. Does anyone know if a W124 wagon (1987 300TD) can safely tow a 3500lb trailer? According to the factory ratings... yes. Just make sure that you have a factory style hitch that also has the same ratings. They show up occasionally on eBay or various forums Also keep in mind that the tongue weight is only 75kg! Would the transmission be up to it if a larger cooler was added? Could the engine cooling system keep up with such a load? I'd say it is a requirement!! They already have a transmission cooler built into the radiator, but the euro wagons with the towing package removed the transmission cooler from the radiator. Presumably so the cooling system didn't have the extra load of the transmission so it could keep up with the increased load of the engine. I'm also assuming an external transmission cooler was added at the same time. All this being said, I've only researched this and not actually driven with a trailer on my wagon. I've got a factory hitch waiting to be installed, but there are other more pressing matters I'm taking care of first You know how that goes I'm sure! ;) My $.02 John ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
I've launched and retrieved my ~3000lb sail boat with a 123 wagon many times, and traction was never an issue. Engine power (NA engine, 617.912) WAS an issue! Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Jim Cathey Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 12:19 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon? My only concern is the car's ability to pull the boat and trailer up a launch ramp. And a very real concern it should be, too. As that trailer rocks back on the ramp it'll tend to lift the rear wheels off the ground. My son and I got a free ride down an embankment due to that factor. You'd want a lot of extra weight in the back of the wagon, I'd think. Stupid trailer trick story: http://userweb.windwireless.net/~jimc/moglog.html#trailer If the ramp was wet and/or slimy, even worse. It's easy enough in a 4wd truck that outweighs the towed load by 2x, else maybe oh-oh! -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 07:19 -0400, Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC,53310 meade.m.dil...@navy.mil wrote: Confession: I do not have trailer brakes on my sailboat trailer, but never had a problem towing the boat, including a drive from Louisville KY to Charleston SC via the mountains. Braking and brake-fade where never an issue. Well that's not the only reason for trailer brakes. The mass of the trailer means a lot of momentum, which pushes on the back end of your car when you stop. If the roads are wet, or worse icy, or you're on gravel, etc. you will have a tendency to fishtail or jacknife even if your brakes are otherwise capable of stopping. With trailer brakes, a lot of that momentum energy is dissipated and you have more control. Ideally the trailer brakes are balanced so that the trailer neither pulls nor pushes on the tow vehicle when you are trying to stop. Allan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
All interesting information, everyone! I have a hitch like this installed: http://www.kupplung.de/Anhaengerkupplungen/Anhaengerkupplung-starre-Ausfuehrung-MB0054.html?VIEW=PList Where the specs list 2100kg. Some similar hitches are rated for slightly less. Jaime On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 7:20 AM, Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310 meade.m.dil...@navy.mil wrote: John, what is your source for the 2100kg? My technical data book says 1700kg. Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of John Robbins Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 6:06 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon? tyler wrote: What is the factory rated towing capacity? In Europe it's 750kg without trailer brakes, 2100kg with. Sedans are 1500kg with brakes. In the US... 0 kg. No chassis/brake/driveline differences that anybody knows about so I would roll with the European ratings. Does anyone know if a W124 wagon (1987 300TD) can safely tow a 3500lb trailer? According to the factory ratings... yes. Just make sure that you have a factory style hitch that also has the same ratings. They show up occasionally on eBay or various forums Also keep in mind that the tongue weight is only 75kg! Would the transmission be up to it if a larger cooler was added? Could the engine cooling system keep up with such a load? I'd say it is a requirement!! They already have a transmission cooler built into the radiator, but the euro wagons with the towing package removed the transmission cooler from the radiator. Presumably so the cooling system didn't have the extra load of the transmission so it could keep up with the increased load of the engine. I'm also assuming an external transmission cooler was added at the same time. All this being said, I've only researched this and not actually driven with a trailer on my wagon. I've got a factory hitch waiting to be installed, but there are other more pressing matters I'm taking care of first You know how that goes I'm sure! ;) My $.02 John ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20091014/df21cddf/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
Excellent link, and that is a great price. I paid 200 euro for mine while on vacation in Italy, shipping was free because back then the airlines hadn't gotten really ridiculous about extra baggage fees, so I checked it as baggage. U.S. Customs was interested, mainly just curious about why someone would bring a trailer hitch back from Italy. I also like the wiring kits they have there, I wonder if they are equivalent to the MB kits that have a little light for the instrument panel. Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Jaime Kopchinski Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:46 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon? All interesting information, everyone! I have a hitch like this installed: http://www.kupplung.de/Anhaengerkupplungen/Anhaengerkupplung-starre-Ausf uehrung-MB0054.html?VIEW=PList Where the specs list 2100kg. Some similar hitches are rated for slightly less. Jaime On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 7:20 AM, Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310 meade.m.dil...@navy.mil wrote: John, what is your source for the 2100kg? My technical data book says 1700kg. Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of John Robbins Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 6:06 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon? tyler wrote: What is the factory rated towing capacity? In Europe it's 750kg without trailer brakes, 2100kg with. Sedans are 1500kg with brakes. In the US... 0 kg. No chassis/brake/driveline differences that anybody knows about so I would roll with the European ratings. Does anyone know if a W124 wagon (1987 300TD) can safely tow a 3500lb trailer? According to the factory ratings... yes. Just make sure that you have a factory style hitch that also has the same ratings. They show up occasionally on eBay or various forums Also keep in mind that the tongue weight is only 75kg! Would the transmission be up to it if a larger cooler was added? Could the engine cooling system keep up with such a load? I'd say it is a requirement!! They already have a transmission cooler built into the radiator, but the euro wagons with the towing package removed the transmission cooler from the radiator. Presumably so the cooling system didn't have the extra load of the transmission so it could keep up with the increased load of the engine. I'm also assuming an external transmission cooler was added at the same time. All this being said, I've only researched this and not actually driven with a trailer on my wagon. I've got a factory hitch waiting to be installed, but there are other more pressing matters I'm taking care of first You know how that goes I'm sure! ;) My $.02 John ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/2009101 4/df21cddf/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
2100kg; that is the hitch maker's spec, and it says it is over-ridden by the car maker's spec, which as far as I can see is 1700kg. Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Jaime Kopchinski Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:46 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon? All interesting information, everyone! I have a hitch like this installed: http://www.kupplung.de/Anhaengerkupplungen/Anhaengerkupplung-starre-Ausf uehrung-MB0054.html?VIEW=PList Where the specs list 2100kg. Some similar hitches are rated for slightly less. Jaime On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 7:20 AM, Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310 meade.m.dil...@navy.mil wrote: John, what is your source for the 2100kg? My technical data book says 1700kg. Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of John Robbins Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 6:06 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon? tyler wrote: What is the factory rated towing capacity? In Europe it's 750kg without trailer brakes, 2100kg with. Sedans are 1500kg with brakes. In the US... 0 kg. No chassis/brake/driveline differences that anybody knows about so I would roll with the European ratings. Does anyone know if a W124 wagon (1987 300TD) can safely tow a 3500lb trailer? According to the factory ratings... yes. Just make sure that you have a factory style hitch that also has the same ratings. They show up occasionally on eBay or various forums Also keep in mind that the tongue weight is only 75kg! Would the transmission be up to it if a larger cooler was added? Could the engine cooling system keep up with such a load? I'd say it is a requirement!! They already have a transmission cooler built into the radiator, but the euro wagons with the towing package removed the transmission cooler from the radiator. Presumably so the cooling system didn't have the extra load of the transmission so it could keep up with the increased load of the engine. I'm also assuming an external transmission cooler was added at the same time. All this being said, I've only researched this and not actually driven with a trailer on my wagon. I've got a factory hitch waiting to be installed, but there are other more pressing matters I'm taking care of first You know how that goes I'm sure! ;) My $.02 John ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/2009101 4/df21cddf/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
Jaime Kopchinski wrote: All interesting information, everyone! I have a hitch like this installed: http://www.kupplung.de/Anhaengerkupplungen/Anhaengerkupplung-starre-Ausfuehrung-MB0054.html?VIEW=PList Does the crossbar bolt to the car, or just the two longitudinals? Where to the longitudinals bolt to the car? Is the receiver a standard 1 1/4 or 2 square, or do you need special euro ball mounts? (I assume it comes with a 80mm ball/mount, which would be a bit big for 1 7/8 and a bit small for 2) Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
Does the crossbar bolt to the car, or just the two longitudinals? Where to the longitudinals bolt to the car? The two longitudinals go inside, next to two 'frame rails' that run forward, and they bolt into the body there. The crossbar bolts to the longitudinals through the body. It is *very* solid. Is the receiver a standard 1 1/4 or 2 square, or do you need special euro ball mounts? (I assume it comes with a 80mm ball/mount, which would be a bit big for 1 7/8 and a bit small for 2) Receiver on mine is unique, I believe the ball is 50mm, a 2 inch hitch works fine. Max ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310 wrote: I also like the wiring kits they have there, I wonder if they are equivalent to the MB kits that have a little light for the instrument panel. Little light for the instrument panel? Could you elaborate a bit? The wiring harness I have is pretty simple It basically plugs up in between the stock harness and one of the lights. John ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
Peter Hertzing wrote: Where did you find the hitch. I have a 2200 pound popup that I would like to pull with me 95 E320 but have never been able to find the hitch. I found mine on PeachParts. You just have to be lucky/patient and wait for one to pop up sometime. You can also search on eBay.de and try to find someone who ships internationally. Also, I believe there are different hitches for wagons vs. sedans. John ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
Allan Streib wrote: Well that's not the only reason for trailer brakes. The mass of the trailer means a lot of momentum, which pushes on the back end of your car when you stop. If the roads are wet, or worse icy, or you're on gravel, etc. you will have a tendency to fishtail or jacknife even if your brakes are otherwise capable of stopping. With trailer brakes, a lot of that momentum energy is dissipated and you have more control. Ideally the trailer brakes are balanced so that the trailer neither pulls nor pushes on the tow vehicle when you are trying to stop. X2!!! John ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
I ordered the official MB kit from a place in the Fatherland, about 100 Euros with shipping. It runs from under the dash (fuse panel, relay N10, little light in instrument panel to tell you when a trailer is hooked up, and brake light switch connection) under all the carpets and interior bits to the back, where a new relay gets installed and it plugs into both sides rear light fixtures. What is stopping me? Pulling the interior bits, including the driver's seat, to run the wiring. Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of John Robbins Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 12:36 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon? Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310 wrote: I also like the wiring kits they have there, I wonder if they are equivalent to the MB kits that have a little light for the instrument panel. Little light for the instrument panel? Could you elaborate a bit? The wiring harness I have is pretty simple It basically plugs up in between the stock harness and one of the lights. John ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310 wrote: What is your source for the 2100kg? Errr... I don't exactly remember. I believe it is from the below site, but it is down right now so I can't verify. I do remember that it was only for wagons, and you had to have a different radiator that didn't have a transmission cooler. http://www.whnet.com/4x4/oil.html John ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
The wiring kit I bought (from kupplung.de) does have the instrument cluster light, but there is no place in the US cluster to install it! Its slightly different from the real MB wiring harness, but its still very nice and make the MB parts. It did require quite a bit of disassembly of the interior, and some careful work in the fuse panel. Jaime On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:56 AM, Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310 meade.m.dil...@navy.mil wrote: Excellent link, and that is a great price. I paid 200 euro for mine while on vacation in Italy, shipping was free because back then the airlines hadn't gotten really ridiculous about extra baggage fees, so I checked it as baggage. U.S. Customs was interested, mainly just curious about why someone would bring a trailer hitch back from Italy. I also like the wiring kits they have there, I wonder if they are equivalent to the MB kits that have a little light for the instrument panel. Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Jaime Kopchinski Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:46 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon? All interesting information, everyone! I have a hitch like this installed: http://www.kupplung.de/Anhaengerkupplungen/Anhaengerkupplung-starre-Ausf uehrung-MB0054.html?VIEW=PListhttp://www.kupplung.de/Anhaengerkupplungen/Anhaengerkupplung-starre-Ausf%0Auehrung-MB0054.html?VIEW=PList Where the specs list 2100kg. Some similar hitches are rated for slightly less. Jaime On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 7:20 AM, Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310 meade.m.dil...@navy.mil wrote: John, what is your source for the 2100kg? My technical data book says 1700kg. Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of John Robbins Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 6:06 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon? tyler wrote: What is the factory rated towing capacity? In Europe it's 750kg without trailer brakes, 2100kg with. Sedans are 1500kg with brakes. In the US... 0 kg. No chassis/brake/driveline differences that anybody knows about so I would roll with the European ratings. Does anyone know if a W124 wagon (1987 300TD) can safely tow a 3500lb trailer? According to the factory ratings... yes. Just make sure that you have a factory style hitch that also has the same ratings. They show up occasionally on eBay or various forums Also keep in mind that the tongue weight is only 75kg! Would the transmission be up to it if a larger cooler was added? Could the engine cooling system keep up with such a load? I'd say it is a requirement!! They already have a transmission cooler built into the radiator, but the euro wagons with the towing package removed the transmission cooler from the radiator. Presumably so the cooling system didn't have the extra load of the transmission so it could keep up with the increased load of the engine. I'm also assuming an external transmission cooler was added at the same time. All this being said, I've only researched this and not actually driven with a trailer on my wagon. I've got a factory hitch waiting to be installed, but there are other more pressing matters I'm taking care of first You know how that goes I'm sure! ;) My $.02 John ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/2009101 4/df21cddf/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
John Robbins wrote: Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310 wrote: What is your source for the 2100kg? Errr... I don't exactly remember. I believe it is from the below site, http://www.whnet.com/4x4/towing.html They show 1900 for S124 stick and 2100 for S124 automatic. Seems like if it's drivetrain dependent, than engine size/type should matter too. http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:rBd_etV8y8QJ:www.whnet.com/4x4/towing.html Interesting that they show W201 at 1200 and W124 at 1900, I never thought there was much difference in the two chassis, I think the car's weight is about 200lb different with similar engines. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
Here's somebody who uses a hidden hitch on a Taurus wagon: http://i38.tinypic.com/xoqptv.jpg ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
Mama's 300SD has a hitch on the back with a 1 (or whatever that smaller size is) receiver, and has a ball that fits. The hitch looks like an aftermarket, maybe custom deal. The PO towed a motorcycle on a little trailer with it. I wouldn't tow anything but it would make a good bike rack attachment point. --R Mitch Haley wrote: Here's somebody who uses a hidden hitch on a Taurus wagon: http://i38.tinypic.com/xoqptv.jpg ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
Jamie,
I'm also towing a sailboat ('74 Catalina 22)- I highly recommend one as
it's cheap and very well made. It only weighs about 2200lbs, but the
trailer and gear bring it to about 3500. I'm currently towing it with a
beat up '87 Volvo 740 turbo wagon that tows it very well, but I think
the W124 would be more comfortable and fuel efficient. I am also curious
also about the Mercedes' ability to pull up a ramp. The Volvo has been
able to pull the boat up even the steepest of ramps without issues. It
has an automatic with 2.45:1 1st gear, and a 3.73:1 rear axle with an
Eaton G80 locker- and the engine makes 187 ft*lb (253 Nm) of torque at
2900 rpm. Does anyone have the gear ratio and torque specs for the W124?
Is it available with a locking or limited slip rear differential? I
would assume if it has just as low or lower gears, a locker or LSD, and
as much torque then climbing the ramp shouldn't be an issue.
I am mostly worried about the transmission or brakes in the W124 burning
up going over mountains.
For pulling up a ramp, I think one could calculate reasonably well the
steepest ramp you could pull a given boat up given (1) the torque of the
engine at the stall speed of the torque converter, (2) the ratio of 1st
gear times the rear differential, (3) the tire outside diameter, and (4)
the combined weight of the entire rig. It's #1 that I expect to be
hardest to find...
Searching online, I found that my Volvo has a 2700rpm stall speed torque
converter and makes about 175 ft*lb of torque at this rpm - or about
1599 ft*lb at the rear axle. With a 12.5in tire radius, this is about
1535 lbs of forward thrust. Fully loaded will all of my gear, the car
and boat probably weigh 7,000lbs.
So:
Force = weight * sin(ramp angle)
ramp angle = arcsin(force/weight) = 0.22 radians = 12.61 degrees
So in theory I can probably pull up a 12.61 degree ramp. According to
BoatUS, most ramps are designed for a 6:1 slope (arctan(1/6)=9.46
degrees), so I have a good extra margin of ability, although without a
locking diff traction would probably come into play first. If someone
can help me find those same numbers for the W124 300TD, I will redo the
calculation for it.
Tyler
Jaime Kopchinski wrote:
Hi Tyler,John gives excellent information... I just installed a factory-like
euro hitch on my 95 E320 wagon, with rated 2100kg load. Thats 4600lbs! I'm
still searching for my towable toy (a sailboat), but I'm looking at for
3500lbs as my maximum. Its quite a bit of weight. In preparation for
towing that weight, I've already gone over my brakes (ended up replacing
just about everything) and changing my trans fluid and filter. My cooling
system is in good shape, with a recent radiator. My only concern is the
car's ability to pull the boat and trailer up a launch ramp.
With some preventative maintenance, common sense, and good trailer brakes, I
think you'll be fine.
Jaime
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Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
Searching in google, I did find some specs on the W123 300TD turbo. It
should be able to pull a 3500lb trailer up an incline of around 14-15
degrees- better than my Volvo 740T, primarily due to a lower 1st gear.
Torque curve: http://www.zarnochwf1.com/node/18
I don't know the stall speed, but it's probably safe to say it's at
least 2000rpm, which would give about 177 ft*lb of torque for the turbo
engine.
The tires are the same as my 740, so 12.5 radius.
Rear axle ratio is 3.07 in '81-'84
(http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=223884).
Curb weight is about 500lbs more than the Volvo, so say 7500 lbs total.
1st gear is 3.68:1 (http://home.comcast.net/~phantoms/vacuum/722_ratios.jpg)
Torque at rear axle: 177ft*lb*3.68*3.07=2000ft*lb
Thrust at stall: 2000ft*lb/1.04ft=1920lb
ramp angle = arcsin(1920lb/7500lb)=14.83 degrees
Tyler
tyler wrote:
Jamie,
I'm also towing a sailboat ('74 Catalina 22)- I highly recommend one
as it's cheap and very well made. It only weighs about 2200lbs, but
the trailer and gear bring it to about 3500. I'm currently towing it
with a beat up '87 Volvo 740 turbo wagon that tows it very well, but I
think the W124 would be more comfortable and fuel efficient. I am also
curious also about the Mercedes' ability to pull up a ramp. The Volvo
has been able to pull the boat up even the steepest of ramps without
issues. It has an automatic with 2.45:1 1st gear, and a 3.73:1 rear
axle with an Eaton G80 locker- and the engine makes 187 ft*lb (253 Nm)
of torque at 2900 rpm. Does anyone have the gear ratio and torque
specs for the W124? Is it available with a locking or limited slip
rear differential? I would assume if it has just as low or lower
gears, a locker or LSD, and as much torque then climbing the ramp
shouldn't be an issue.
I am mostly worried about the transmission or brakes in the W124
burning up going over mountains.
For pulling up a ramp, I think one could calculate reasonably well the
steepest ramp you could pull a given boat up given (1) the torque of
the engine at the stall speed of the torque converter, (2) the ratio
of 1st gear times the rear differential, (3) the tire outside
diameter, and (4) the combined weight of the entire rig. It's #1 that
I expect to be hardest to find...
Searching online, I found that my Volvo has a 2700rpm stall speed
torque converter and makes about 175 ft*lb of torque at this rpm - or
about 1599 ft*lb at the rear axle. With a 12.5in tire radius, this is
about 1535 lbs of forward thrust. Fully loaded will all of my gear,
the car and boat probably weigh 7,000lbs.
So:
Force = weight * sin(ramp angle)
ramp angle = arcsin(force/weight) = 0.22 radians = 12.61 degrees
So in theory I can probably pull up a 12.61 degree ramp. According to
BoatUS, most ramps are designed for a 6:1 slope (arctan(1/6)=9.46
degrees), so I have a good extra margin of ability, although without a
locking diff traction would probably come into play first. If someone
can help me find those same numbers for the W124 300TD, I will redo
the calculation for it.
Tyler
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Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
tyler wrote: Searching in google, I did find some specs on the W123 300TD turbo. It should be able to pull a 3500lb trailer up an incline of around 14-15 degrees- better than my Volvo 740T, primarily due to a lower 1st gear. You seem to be forgetting the purpose of a torque converter, which is to multiply torque. I'm guessing the real thrust could easily be 170-200% of your calculations. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
You're right! I didn't question the calculations because they seemed to be almost perfectly inline with my actual experience. When I tried my Volvo on a very steep boat ramp (probably about 12 degrees?), the rig didn't start moving at all until the engine hit the stall speed and the turbo built boost- it took several seconds. With twice the thrust, the theoretical ramp angle would be ~26 degrees rather than ~12, and a 12 degree ramp should have felt like nothing. Perhaps friction of the water, drivetrain, tires, etc uses up about half of the actual thrust? Maybe the ramp was a lot steeper than 12 degrees? I didn't measure it or anything, but now I'm curious enough to bring a protractor next time. Tyler Mitch Haley wrote: tyler wrote: Searching in google, I did find some specs on the W123 300TD turbo. It should be able to pull a 3500lb trailer up an incline of around 14-15 degrees- better than my Volvo 740T, primarily due to a lower 1st gear. You seem to be forgetting the purpose of a torque converter, which is to multiply torque. I'm guessing the real thrust could easily be 170-200% of your calculations. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
I think you're right except for one factor you left out: The sliminess of the ramp. Which I suppose is less of an issue on the west coast but I saw a guy damn near lose a fullsize Blazer on a not particularly steep lake ramp because he didn't bother to put it into 4wd (because it wasn't steep) but as the weight of boat hit the trailer as he pulled it out of the water he started to spin and slide backwards. As soon as he started to slide he hit the brakes but he continued to slide until the boat started to float... -Curt Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:22:57 -0700 From: tyler casi...@usermail.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon? To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Message-ID: 4ad64131.2060...@usermail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed snip For pulling up a ramp, I think one could calculate reasonably well the steepest ramp you could pull a given boat up given (1) the torque of the engine at the stall speed of the torque converter, (2) the ratio of 1st gear times the rear differential, (3) the tire outside diameter, and (4) the combined weight of the entire rig. It's #1 that I expect to be hardest to find... -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20091014/bb80aa83/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
I think I did mention than an LSD or locker is required? With the eaton G80 locker in my Volvo, I have never slipped the rear tires even for a second- even when I was backed down with the water over the rear bumper on algae and sand covered ramps. I do think a locker is at least as good as regular open diff 4wd on a boat ramp, since there's a lot more weight on the rear axle than the front due to the tongue weight and incline. I have pulled a 4,000 lb boat up a ramp with a Volvo 760 Turbo Diesel that was without a locker- and it was extremely difficult due to wheelspin, and did slide sideways a bit before I could get it to start moving forwards. I don't think I'd want to tow any boat over 2,000lbs again without a locker or 4wd. With a locker and good tires, the limit is probably torque rather than traction. I don't know what lockers or LSD options there are for W124s and W123s. Would the 190E 16v LSD work? I prefer a real locker to an LSD, but either is better than nothing. Another thing that helps a lot with a sailboat is an extending trailer tongue, which will keep your rear tires on cleaner and drier pavement- as well as protect your car from saltwater damage. I paid a welder just last weekend to replace my extending tongue, which was rusted solid. Sincerely, Tyler 1987 190D Turbo Biodiesel On Oct 14, 2009, at 6:24 PM, Curt Raymond wrote: I think you're right except for one factor you left out: The sliminess of the ramp. Which I suppose is less of an issue on the west coast but I saw a guy damn near lose a fullsize Blazer on a not particularly steep lake ramp because he didn't bother to put it into 4wd (because it wasn't steep) but as the weight of boat hit the trailer as he pulled it out of the water he started to spin and slide backwards. As soon as he started to slide he hit the brakes but he continued to slide until the boat started to float... -Curt Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:22:57 -0700 From: tyler casi...@usermail.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon? To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Message-ID: 4ad64131.2060...@usermail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed snip For pulling up a ramp, I think one could calculate reasonably well the steepest ramp you could pull a given boat up given (1) the torque of the engine at the stall speed of the torque converter, (2) the ratio of 1st gear times the rear differential, (3) the tire outside diameter, and (4) the combined weight of the entire rig. It's #1 that I expect to be hardest to find... -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20091014/bb80aa83/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
Also, most of the ramps I use are made from corrugated looking concrete, which doesn't slime up much. If his blazer slid with the brakes on- perhaps even 4wd wouldn't have saved him? Sincerely, Tyler On Oct 14, 2009, at 6:24 PM, Curt Raymond wrote: I think you're right except for one factor you left out: The sliminess of the ramp. Which I suppose is less of an issue on the west coast but I saw a guy damn near lose a fullsize Blazer on a not particularly steep lake ramp because he didn't bother to put it into 4wd (because it wasn't steep) but as the weight of boat hit the trailer as he pulled it out of the water he started to spin and slide backwards. As soon as he started to slide he hit the brakes but he continued to slide until the boat started to float... -Curt Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:22:57 -0700 From: tyler casi...@usermail.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon? To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Message-ID: 4ad64131.2060...@usermail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed snip For pulling up a ramp, I think one could calculate reasonably well the steepest ramp you could pull a given boat up given (1) the torque of the engine at the stall speed of the torque converter, (2) the ratio of 1st gear times the rear differential, (3) the tire outside diameter, and (4) the combined weight of the entire rig. It's #1 that I expect to be hardest to find... -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20091014/bb80aa83/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
Interesting, a Catalina 22 is exactly what I had in mind when considering
the largest towable boat! Good to hear your experiences. I've been really
looking for a com-pac 19, but there aren't that many out there. Com-pac 23
would be ideal, but is getting too heavy and difficult to trailer in
general. However, if a nice Catalina 22 for a good price comes around, I
might just jump on it!
Jaime
On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 5:22 PM, tyler casi...@usermail.com wrote:
Jamie,
I'm also towing a sailboat ('74 Catalina 22)- I highly recommend one as
it's cheap and very well made. It only weighs about 2200lbs, but the trailer
and gear bring it to about 3500. I'm currently towing it with a beat up '87
Volvo 740 turbo wagon that tows it very well, but I think the W124 would be
more comfortable and fuel efficient. I am also curious also about the
Mercedes' ability to pull up a ramp. The Volvo has been able to pull the
boat up even the steepest of ramps without issues. It has an automatic with
2.45:1 1st gear, and a 3.73:1 rear axle with an Eaton G80 locker- and the
engine makes 187 ft*lb (253 Nm) of torque at 2900 rpm. Does anyone have the
gear ratio and torque specs for the W124? Is it available with a locking or
limited slip rear differential? I would assume if it has just as low or
lower gears, a locker or LSD, and as much torque then climbing the ramp
shouldn't be an issue.
I am mostly worried about the transmission or brakes in the W124 burning up
going over mountains.
For pulling up a ramp, I think one could calculate reasonably well the
steepest ramp you could pull a given boat up given (1) the torque of the
engine at the stall speed of the torque converter, (2) the ratio of 1st gear
times the rear differential, (3) the tire outside diameter, and (4) the
combined weight of the entire rig. It's #1 that I expect to be hardest to
find...
Searching online, I found that my Volvo has a 2700rpm stall speed torque
converter and makes about 175 ft*lb of torque at this rpm - or about 1599
ft*lb at the rear axle. With a 12.5in tire radius, this is about 1535 lbs of
forward thrust. Fully loaded will all of my gear, the car and boat probably
weigh 7,000lbs.
So:
Force = weight * sin(ramp angle)
ramp angle = arcsin(force/weight) = 0.22 radians = 12.61 degrees
So in theory I can probably pull up a 12.61 degree ramp. According to
BoatUS, most ramps are designed for a 6:1 slope (arctan(1/6)=9.46 degrees),
so I have a good extra margin of ability, although without a locking diff
traction would probably come into play first. If someone can help me find
those same numbers for the W124 300TD, I will redo the calculation for it.
Tyler
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[MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
Does anyone know if a W124 wagon (1987 300TD) can safely tow a 3500lb trailer? Would the transmission be up to it if a larger cooler was added? Could the engine cooling system keep up with such a load? What is the factory rated towing capacity? Tyler ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
tyler wrote: What is the factory rated towing capacity? In Europe it's 750kg without trailer brakes, 2100kg with. Sedans are 1500kg with brakes. In the US... 0 kg. No chassis/brake/driveline differences that anybody knows about so I would roll with the European ratings. Does anyone know if a W124 wagon (1987 300TD) can safely tow a 3500lb trailer? According to the factory ratings... yes. Just make sure that you have a factory style hitch that also has the same ratings. They show up occasionally on eBay or various forums Also keep in mind that the tongue weight is only 75kg! Would the transmission be up to it if a larger cooler was added? Could the engine cooling system keep up with such a load? I'd say it is a requirement!! They already have a transmission cooler built into the radiator, but the euro wagons with the towing package removed the transmission cooler from the radiator. Presumably so the cooling system didn't have the extra load of the transmission so it could keep up with the increased load of the engine. I'm also assuming an external transmission cooler was added at the same time. All this being said, I've only researched this and not actually driven with a trailer on my wagon. I've got a factory hitch waiting to be installed, but there are other more pressing matters I'm taking care of first You know how that goes I'm sure! ;) My $.02 John ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
Hi Tyler,John gives excellent information... I just installed a factory-like euro hitch on my 95 E320 wagon, with rated 2100kg load. Thats 4600lbs! I'm still searching for my towable toy (a sailboat), but I'm looking at for 3500lbs as my maximum. Its quite a bit of weight. In preparation for towing that weight, I've already gone over my brakes (ended up replacing just about everything) and changing my trans fluid and filter. My cooling system is in good shape, with a recent radiator. My only concern is the car's ability to pull the boat and trailer up a launch ramp. With some preventative maintenance, common sense, and good trailer brakes, I think you'll be fine. Jaime On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 5:41 PM, tyler casi...@usermail.com wrote: Does anyone know if a W124 wagon (1987 300TD) can safely tow a 3500lb trailer? Would the transmission be up to it if a larger cooler was added? Could the engine cooling system keep up with such a load? What is the factory rated towing capacity? Tyler ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20091013/0c742bcd/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
Where did you find the hitch. I have a 2200 pound popup that I would like to pull with me 95 E320 but have never been able to find the hitch. Currently pulling with me 97 Volvo 960, but would like to divest myself of that car. Only keeping it to tow On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 8:09 PM, Jaime Kopchinski jaime...@gmail.comwrote: Hi Tyler,John gives excellent information... I just installed a factory-like euro hitch on my 95 E320 wagon, with rated 2100kg load. Thats 4600lbs! I'm still searching for my towable toy (a sailboat), but I'm looking at for 3500lbs as my maximum. Its quite a bit of weight. In preparation for towing that weight, I've already gone over my brakes (ended up replacing just about everything) and changing my trans fluid and filter. My cooling system is in good shape, with a recent radiator. My only concern is the car's ability to pull the boat and trailer up a launch ramp. With some preventative maintenance, common sense, and good trailer brakes, I think you'll be fine. Jaime On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 5:41 PM, tyler casi...@usermail.com wrote: Does anyone know if a W124 wagon (1987 300TD) can safely tow a 3500lb trailer? Would the transmission be up to it if a larger cooler was added? Could the engine cooling system keep up with such a load? What is the factory rated towing capacity? Tyler ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20091013/0c742bcd/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20091013/9f3273db/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
I sure as hell would not want to try it. tyler wrote: Does anyone know if a W124 wagon (1987 300TD) can safely tow a 3500lb trailer? Would the transmission be up to it if a larger cooler was added? Could the engine cooling system keep up with such a load? What is the factory rated towing capacity? Tyler ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.113/2400 - Release Date: 09/28/09 05:51:00 -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 95 E300, 92 500SEL, 92 300SD, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D, 91 300E, 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL x2, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 85 190D, 84 190D, 84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, http://www.okiebenz.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20091013/68b9a8b4/attachment.html -- next part -- Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.113/2400 - Release Date: 09/28/09 05:51:00 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anyone tow with a W124 wagon?
My only concern is the car's ability to pull the boat and trailer up a launch ramp. And a very real concern it should be, too. As that trailer rocks back on the ramp it'll tend to lift the rear wheels off the ground. My son and I got a free ride down an embankment due to that factor. You'd want a lot of extra weight in the back of the wagon, I'd think. Stupid trailer trick story: http://userweb.windwireless.net/~jimc/moglog.html#trailer If the ramp was wet and/or slimy, even worse. It's easy enough in a 4wd truck that outweighs the towed load by 2x, else maybe oh-oh! -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
