Re: [MBZ] Governer question - injection charge profile
Thanks for the info and link to the book, I just ordered one myself. I am playing with microcontrollers and plan to hijack the pressure signal to the ALDA and adjust for actual air temperature after the turbo and intercooler (in garage now, not in car yet). Andy On 1/23/07, John Robbins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrew Cunningham wrote: I would love to see a scan of that chart. Threw in a little extra as well. The chart is on the bottom of page 9 though. A more advanced one for the governor used on the M pumps (OM60x) is on page 14. http://www.ece.msstate.edu/~jer99/mercedes/BoschHighlights.pdf Since all this information is Copyrighted by Bosch if you would like to purchase your own copy of this book follow this link (the 3rd edition is the only one that has the inline pumps like ours). There is lots more in the book... http://www.boschtechinfo.com/index.cfm?event=product.searchkeyword=1%20987%20723%20602 Enjoy :) John '79 300SD ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Governer question - injection charge profile
On Wed, 24 Jan 2007, Andrew Cunningham wrote: Thanks for the info and link to the book, I just ordered one myself. I am playing with microcontrollers and plan to hijack the pressure signal to the ALDA and adjust for actual air temperature after the turbo and intercooler (in garage now, not in car yet). Ah... OM606.96x has a sensor that looks like a temp sensor in the charge air plenum just prior to where it goes into the EGR valve/mixing chamber, so it will probably make a difference. -j.
Re: [MBZ] Governer question - injection charge profile
With shipping and handling, its $26.22 - still a bargain for an almost 500 pg. technical book. On 1/23/07, John W. Reames III [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 23 Jan 2007, John Robbins wrote: http://www.ece.msstate.edu/~jer99/mercedes/BoschHighlights.pdf Its on clearance for $10 !!! -j. -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. Will Rogers '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager
Re: [MBZ] Governer question - injection charge profile
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007, OK Don wrote: With shipping and handling, its $26.22 - still a bargain for an almost 500 pg. technical book. Yeah, agree. Better than $66.22! I ordered mine already! -j.
Re: [MBZ] Governer question - injection charge profile
-Original Message- From: John Robbins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 19 January 2007 06:10 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Governer question - injection charge profile Peter Merle wrote: To ask a furthur question - what shapes the maximum injection stoke volume vs rpm at these pumps. As I understand it compensation for volumetric efficiency vs rpm needs to be taken account so that at low speed and at hig speed the maximum injection charge is lower than at mid range rpm due to rereduced volumetric efficeincy. Let me make sure I understand what you're asking real quick. :) On the volumetric efficiency vs RPM are you talking about the amount of available air for combustion inside the cylinder based on RPM (things like boost and/or losses changing that over the RPM band)? If thats the case, then the amount of injected fuel (injection charge?) does have different limits across the RPM range. The reason for it is that if you start injecting too much fuel you will start generating clouds of black smoke (partially burned fuel). I have a graph in a Bosch tech book that shows the max injected volume vs RPM and it does do what you describe. I can post that if you would like that extra verification :) As to HOW thats done that is where the complicated part (IMO) of our governors come into play. In the governor used on the MW pumps I believe it is called torque control. There are very few people who truly understand exactly how it works (and how to change it), and I am certainly NOT one of them. If you are interested in learning more about how IPs work I'd highly suggest this book It talks about all kinds of IPs and how the governors work, etc. As well as a fairly detailed overview of diesel combustion, etc. I sure enjoyed reading it and learned a lot :) http://www.boschtechinfo.com/index.cfm?event=product.searchkeyword=1%20 987%20723%20602 John '79 300SD ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Governer question - injection charge profile
Andrew Cunningham wrote: I would love to see a scan of that chart. Threw in a little extra as well. The chart is on the bottom of page 9 though. A more advanced one for the governor used on the M pumps (OM60x) is on page 14. http://www.ece.msstate.edu/~jer99/mercedes/BoschHighlights.pdf Since all this information is Copyrighted by Bosch if you would like to purchase your own copy of this book follow this link (the 3rd edition is the only one that has the inline pumps like ours). There is lots more in the book... http://www.boschtechinfo.com/index.cfm?event=product.searchkeyword=1%20987%20723%20602 Enjoy :) John '79 300SD
Re: [MBZ] Governer question - injection charge profile
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007, John Robbins wrote: http://www.ece.msstate.edu/~jer99/mercedes/BoschHighlights.pdf Its on clearance for $10 !!! -j.
Re: [MBZ] Governer question - injection charge profile
John, I would love to see a scan of that chart. Andy On 1/19/07, John Robbins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter Merle wrote: To ask a furthur question - what shapes the maximum injection stoke volume vs rpm at these pumps. As I understand it compensation for volumetric efficiency vs rpm needs to be taken account so that at low speed and at hig speed the maximum injection charge is lower than at mid range rpm due to rereduced volumetric efficeincy. Let me make sure I understand what you're asking real quick. :) On the volumetric efficiency vs RPM are you talking about the amount of available air for combustion inside the cylinder based on RPM (things like boost and/or losses changing that over the RPM band)? If thats the case, then the amount of injected fuel (injection charge?) does have different limits across the RPM range. The reason for it is that if you start injecting too much fuel you will start generating clouds of black smoke (partially burned fuel). I have a graph in a Bosch tech book that shows the max injected volume vs RPM and it does do what you describe. I can post that if you would like that extra verification :) As to HOW thats done that is where the complicated part (IMO) of our governors come into play. In the governor used on the MW pumps I believe it is called torque control. There are very few people who truly understand exactly how it works (and how to change it), and I am certainly NOT one of them. If you are interested in learning more about how IPs work I'd highly suggest this book It talks about all kinds of IPs and how the governors work, etc. As well as a fairly detailed overview of diesel combustion, etc. I sure enjoyed reading it and learned a lot :) http://www.boschtechinfo.com/index.cfm?event=product.searchkeyword=1%20987%20723%20602 John '79 300SD ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Governer question - injection charge profile
To ask a furthur question - what shapes the maximum injection stoke volume vs rpm at these pumps. As I understand it compensation for volumetric efficiency vs rpm needs to be taken account so that at low speed and at hig speed the maximum injection charge is lower than at mid range rpm due to rereduced volumetric efficeincy. Peter -Original Message- From: John Robbins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 January 2007 10:34 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Governer question On Wed, 17 Jan 2007, Jim Cathey wrote: If we are talking pre computer controlled Mercedes diesels, such as the 617 turbo diesel, you are totally wrong! The governor does not have any function between idle and full rpm. The only things that control engine speed are the load, and the position of the fuel rack. I disagree. It's possible to build diesel governors that have throttle responses anywhere from gasser acceleration models to pure tractor-like fixed RPM settings. No doubt, but the governor on the OM617 turbos have a min/max governor with torque control and boost compensation (ALDA). The governor in the 200D Frankenheap is very tractor-like, it pretty much accelerates all-out (ha!) to the rpm corresponding to the throttle pedal position. Well, on a flat road there is always going to be a fuel rack position vs speed since the car speed and load are fairly well correlated to each other. That pedal position is different in park than it is in drive correct? Those vacuum controlled IPs are interesting... the literature I have doesn't talk much about them though. John '79 300SD ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
