Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Donald Snook via Mercedes]

As Craig and Allan and others have said, if she is happy, then that’s enough.  
The reality is probably slightly darker. If she is unhappy, then I’m going to 
know about it. 

Donald H. Snook


> On Sep 14, 2023, at 6:10 AM, dan penoff.com  wrote:
> 
> Pretty much my situation as well. Mrs. Dan wanted a whole-house standby 
> system, so I got one.
> 
> -D
> 
>>> On Sep 13, 2023, at 9:52 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Sep 13, 2023, at 16:32, Donald Snook via Mercedes wrote:
>>> 
>>> She’s happy, then I’m happy.
>> 
>> That tends to be all that really matters.
>> 
>> If she ISN'T happy, you can bet YOU won't be either.
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

Think of it this way:

Two service calls, mileage and travel time, and parts ($2500 plus incidentals.)

Figure a $4000 bill when it’s all said and done.

When you approach the 50% point is when we would look at replacement cost. We 
offered a new unit at a discount (Generac tossed in some $$$ as this was their 
problem, not ours) which made a new unit more attractive than repairing the 
original unit.

The customer made the choice. There may have been lead time issues with the 
part as well, I don’t recall.

-D

> On Sep 14, 2023, at 9:20 AM, Jim Cathey  wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> Generac says $2500 for a complete distributor. ... Since this is a piece of 
>> equipment that’s critical and still warrantied by Generac there’s no way we 
>> could even consider trying to jury-rig something. So we offer to essentially 
>> sell them a new (replacement) unit at or near our cost, plus installation.
> 
> I don't understand here.  So it's $2500.  Ouch, but that had to be WAY less 
> than what was spent replacing
> the entire unit.  And it's a new assembly, swapped in.  Should be 
> warrantable.  What am I missing?
> 
>> Due to Generac’s overengineering and inability to maintain stock or identify 
>> less expensive service parts, I got a 25kW standby set of roughly $40 plus 
>> installation.
> 
> WAY better than my $400 45kW Kohler!
> 
> -- Jim
> 
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> Generac says $2500 for a complete distributor. ... Since this is a piece of 
> equipment that’s critical and still warrantied by Generac there’s no way we 
> could even consider trying to jury-rig something. So we offer to essentially 
> sell them a new (replacement) unit at or near our cost, plus installation.

I don't understand here.  So it's $2500.  Ouch, but that had to be WAY less 
than what was spent replacing
the entire unit.  And it's a new assembly, swapped in.  Should be warrantable.  
What am I missing?

> Due to Generac’s overengineering and inability to maintain stock or identify 
> less expensive service parts, I got a 25kW standby set of roughly $40 plus 
> installation.

WAY better than my $400 45kW Kohler!

-- Jim


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

Pretty much my situation as well. Mrs. Dan wanted a whole-house standby system, 
so I got one.

-D

> On Sep 13, 2023, at 9:52 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Sep 13, 2023, at 16:32, Donald Snook via Mercedes wrote:
> 
>> She’s happy, then I’m happy.
> 
> That tends to be all that really matters.
> 
> If she ISN'T happy, you can bet YOU won't be either.
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

On Wed, Sep 13, 2023, at 16:32, Donald Snook via Mercedes wrote:

> She’s happy, then I’m happy.

That tends to be all that really matters.

If she ISN'T happy, you can bet YOU won't be either.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

On Wed, Sep 13, 2023, at 16:22, Jim Cathey wrote:

> Something that one could do is mount an LED or neon indicator
> in their fuse box, connected directly to the un-switched power.

Seems like that would be a good feature in general. WARNING -- the feed into 
this panel is LIVE when light is lit.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

Donald,

Speaking as someone who could have done much of my generator setup myself, you 
did the right thing.

I certainly don’t begrudge anyone who makes the effort to be self-sustaining in 
emergencies, no matter how large or small the effort. There are times when 
things are best left to the experts who do this every day for a living (which I 
haven’t done for 25 years.)

We had a generator at our house in Indianapolis, a 25kW Generac, which was an 
industrial take-out I got for free from my company. It’s a good example of 
where Generac gets into trouble…

They used a Mitsubishi industrial engine on that unit. Nothing really unique, a 
four-cylinder (natural) gas engine that was used in automobile applications as 
well as industrial ones, like forklifts. But - Generac spec’ed a solid-state 
ignition that was unique to the application. What does that mean? The 
distributor had an integral ignition coil, like a GM HEI system - everything is 
in the distributor. That wasn’t the problem, the problem was that the ignition 
system they chose was not used in ANY Mitsubishi industrial engine application 
sold in the U.S. outside of Generac’s!

The (integral) ignition coil failed. Generac says $2500 for a complete 
distributor. Understand that they were buying component parts as spares at 
relatively low numbers, as they stock very few major hard parts. No cross-over 
or alternative for the distributor or coil. Since this is a piece of equipment 
that’s critical and still warrantied by Generac there’s no way we could even 
consider trying to jury-rig something. So we offer to essentially sell them a 
new (replacement) unit at or near our cost, plus installation.

Customer had a $2M house in Terre Haute, IN. There probably weren't 10 $2M 
homes in Terre Haute, IN at the time (this was in 2008). The home was built out 
of these huge stones/rocks, with some post and beam elements that supported the 
structure. The generator was in an attached part of the house but a separate 
building of sorts. We had to take it out and bring a contractor in to remove 
some of the masonry work. It was ugly, but between the mason clearing out the 
doorway and a great bunch of Amish guys who did our rigging/equipment moving, 
we got it replaced in a day with another few hours to finish up the connections 
and such.

So now we have a two-year old 25kW Generac standby unit that is pretty much 
worthless without a $2500 distributor. Challenge accepted.

I told my business partners that I would buy the unit for $1 from our business. 
They had no interest in it, assuming it was pretty much a boat anchor at this 
point, or a parts unit, so it became mine.

I just happened to know that this Mitsubishi engine and ignition system was 
quite popular in Australasia, so I got ahold of our good MB buddy Down Under, 
John Green. John put me in touch with his automotive electrical supplier, who 
confirmed that they had plenty of the ignition coils in stock for this 
distributor. Cost? $AUD 18, about $USD 20. Cost me another $20 to ship it to 
Indiana. I put down one of our precast slabs, ran the gas and electrical lines 
to the slab, then brought the generator over from the shop on a trailer and 
unloaded it with some come-alongs and elbow grease to get it on the pad and 
bolted down. An electrician buddy of ours came over and wired in my 400A 
automatic transfer switch (Kohler, a take-out from a job) and I had standby, 
whole-house power. Nice!

Due to Generac’s overengineering and inability to maintain stock or identify 
less expensive service parts, I got a 25kW standby set of roughly $40 plus 
installation.

-D

> On Sep 13, 2023, at 5:32 PM, Donald Snook via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> All of these emails about ways I could have saved by rigging up a different 
> generator and potentially electrocuting myself and having an electrical box 
> that may or not be code has convinced me I absolutely did the right thing. 
> 
> The last time the power went out the house behind me lit up in 20 seconds.  
> He has a generac. Every time his came on and I’m dragging extension cords 
> around and figuring out which things need to be on first and which ones can 
> wait and will it get too hot or too cold and did I remember to fill up my 5 
> gallon gas can, etc I realized he didn’t even give it another thought.  
> 
> Most importantly — my wife said she would rather have the generator than 
> putting in wood floors.  She’s happy, then I’m happy.  Except when it comes 
> to cars, then the rule is as long as I don’t mess with hers, she doesn’t 
> care. 
> 
> Donald H. Snook
> 
> 
>> On Sep 13, 2023, at 3:47 PM, mi...@mitchellhaley.com wrote:
>> 
>> On 2023-09-13 16:29, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
>>> I suppose the problem with manually reverse-feeding your whole house with a 
>>> suicide cord off the generator is, how do you know when the utility power 
>>> is back on?
>> 
>> I'm subscribed to text alerts.
>> Consumers Energy will send me a power 

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

P.S:

Mitsubishi never sold that distributor in the U.S. on an engine other than the 
ones sold to Generac. They were sold directly to Generac, so no U.S. 
distributor would have even had one in their warehouse or be required to 
support them. If you called a Mitsubishi industrial or automotive distributor, 
they couldn’t even “see” the part number, because none were ever sold in the 
U.S. market. Think MB and a part that’s unique to the European market. You have 
the number and description, but it’s not available through a U.S. dealer 
because Mercedes won’t sell one to them, it’s not even visible to them in 
Paragon (the MB parts system.)

Same scenario with this distributor and its service parts. Nothing in the U.S. 
and no one knows anything about them.

Sorry for the wordiness, just wanted to clarify.

-D

> On Sep 13, 2023, at 6:05 PM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Big Bertha, which if wired in optimally would run everything but the electric
> furnace, no muss no fuss, is a thirsty girl.  (And it could even handle the 
> furnace
> too if it were strapped for 3-phase, which BB has, but that's a MAJOR 
> rewiring,
> with quite a large throw-the-switch-Igor knife switch since utility power here
> is not 3-phase.  Alas, only a fantasy at this time.)
> 
> At roughly 3 gallons an hour, no load, a typical 500 gallon tank, assuming it
> were half-full on average, could only get me maybe three days of running.
> We've been out of power for up to a week here so far in my tenure.
> 
> If the only thing on propane were BB I could get maybe 5-6 days on a full 
> tank.
> That week-long power outage would cost me $1000+, which is a bit steep
> for mere convenience.
> 
> BB is just not practical to have on an automatic basis.  Currently we use
> gas-powered rope-pull in the evenings, batteries only during daylight, and
> save up washing and bathing for a limited Big Bertha daylight sessions
> every few days.  That seems to be a nice compromise.
> 
> -- Jim
> 
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

Big Bertha, which if wired in optimally would run everything but the electric
furnace, no muss no fuss, is a thirsty girl.  (And it could even handle the 
furnace
too if it were strapped for 3-phase, which BB has, but that's a MAJOR rewiring,
with quite a large throw-the-switch-Igor knife switch since utility power here
is not 3-phase.  Alas, only a fantasy at this time.)

At roughly 3 gallons an hour, no load, a typical 500 gallon tank, assuming it
were half-full on average, could only get me maybe three days of running.
We've been out of power for up to a week here so far in my tenure.

If the only thing on propane were BB I could get maybe 5-6 days on a full tank.
That week-long power outage would cost me $1000+, which is a bit steep
for mere convenience.

BB is just not practical to have on an automatic basis.  Currently we use
gas-powered rope-pull in the evenings, batteries only during daylight, and
save up washing and bathing for a limited Big Bertha daylight sessions
every few days.  That seems to be a nice compromise.

-- Jim


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> The last time the power went out the house behind me lit up in 20 seconds.  
> He has a generac.

Yes, that's stunningly convenient, and quite attractive.  The problem here, and 
likely for many,
 is fuel.

We don't have NG, nor propane.  It's all carried in in cans or bottles, one way 
or
another.  Given the moderate PITA that would be frequent fueling, the extra PITA
of the connectivity to the generator itself is, incrementally, not that much 
worse.

Hey, it's just 15 easy steps!  :-)

The neighbors have a whole-house battery backup system.  Their problem is that 
they
never know the power went out, so they don't know to begin conservation!  Often 
until
it's too late.  (One little comfort space heater and your batteries are sucked 
dry in a few
hours.)

-- Jim


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Wed, 13 Sep 2023 16:32:59 -0500 Donald Snook via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Most importantly — my wife said she would rather have the generator
> than putting in wood floors.  She’s happy, then I’m happy.

Wow. That does show the preferred path, doesn't it?


Craig

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

Speaking of the oh-so-vital checklist when using suicide cords, I just copied 
them onto my web site.
(There are actually four checklists, and were LaTeX documents printed in a 
binder.)  These are
written not just for myself, but for my family members should I not be 
available at the moment.

http://formicapeak.com/~jimc/backup.html 


The instructions for the rope-pull backup to the backup are:

http://formicapeak.com/~jimc/backup2.html 


-- Jim

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

This.

If you have a modern distribution panel, there’s a good chance the manufacturer 
offers an interlock plate for it. You might have to move some breakers around 
to accommodate it, but think of it as a sliding metal “door’ or “flag” that 
when one breaker is closed, the trip handle is pushing against the interlock 
plate, whose other edge is against the trip handle of the breaker that’s 
opposite it, preventing it from closing.

That or just buy a smaller distribution panel for the circuits you want to feed 
off the generator and use the interlock plate to control that breaker. That way 
there’s no chance you’ll overload the generator - feeding the whole house means 
you have to shut off all the non-emergency circuits, which may not be easy to 
do.

Backfeeding is potentially dangerous for all of the obvious reasons. I don’t 
recommend doing it unless you have a qualified electrical contractor design and 
install the setup. A lot of people do it by just opening breakers, and that’s 
inherently dangerous. You don’t want to see the results of backfeeding a 
distribution system, or, even worse, the utility feeding into a small generator.

In generator engineering and design terms, we always referred to the utility as 
an “infinite bus”. As in, you will get as much power as it can give you - until 
something fails. Which usually occurs spectacularly. Under these circumstances, 
that is a Bad Thing.

-D

> On Sep 13, 2023, at 2:13 PM, mitch--- via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> On 2023-09-13 14:01, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
> 
>> If you switch off the main breaker at the top of your panel, that will stop 
>> any backfeeding out through the meter, correct? This is what a proper 
>> transfer switch does automatically?
> 
> You can buy an interlock plate which is a sliding piece of sheet metal which 
> physically prevents you from having the topmost circuit breaker and the main 
> breaker turned on at the same time. I'm not up to date on whether this is 
> code compliant, but it does physically prevent backfeeding the grid through 
> the breaker the interlock blocks.
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Donald Snook via Mercedes]

All of these emails about ways I could have saved by rigging up a different 
generator and potentially electrocuting myself and having an electrical box 
that may or not be code has convinced me I absolutely did the right thing. 

The last time the power went out the house behind me lit up in 20 seconds.  He 
has a generac. Every time his came on and I’m dragging extension cords around 
and figuring out which things need to be on first and which ones can wait and 
will it get too hot or too cold and did I remember to fill up my 5 gallon gas 
can, etc I realized he didn’t even give it another thought.  

Most importantly — my wife said she would rather have the generator than 
putting in wood floors.  She’s happy, then I’m happy.  Except when it comes to 
cars, then the rule is as long as I don’t mess with hers, she doesn’t care. 

Donald H. Snook


> On Sep 13, 2023, at 3:47 PM, mi...@mitchellhaley.com wrote:
> 
> On 2023-09-13 16:29, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
>> I suppose the problem with manually reverse-feeding your whole house with a 
>> suicide cord off the generator is, how do you know when the utility power is 
>> back on?
> 
> I'm subscribed to text alerts.
> Consumers Energy will send me a power restoration text about 5-15 minutes 
> after it comes back on.
> 
> Alternately, I have a smart meter.
> I can periodically check to see if the meter's display is still blank.
> 
> Before smart meters, I had to go out in the garage, disconnect the generator, 
> flip the main, and see if the lights came on in the garage. Or if I was 
> lucky, a neighbor would call and tell me it's back on.
> 
> 

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> I suppose the problem with manually reverse-feeding your whole house with a 
> suicide cord off the generator is, how do you know when the utility power is 
> back on?

In my case, the pumphouse is completely separate from the house.  So I just
turn on the light over the door down there.  When I see it's on, I know to go 
back
to utility power.

Something that one could do is mount an LED or neon indicator
in their fuse box, connected directly to the un-switched power.

-- Jim


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> Like requiring $80 arc fault breakers instead of $8 regular breakers.

Which I promptly removed in our new living room, because it kept killing
the power to the entire room when you turned the lights on and off.
Not every time, but often enough.  POS...

Yes, switches do arc.  This is NORMAL!  Duh.

-- Jim


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

We had an outage last February, out from maybe 1pm to 4am. It was a heavy 
snowstorm so I'd expected it.

I got a text notification that power was out about 15 minutes after it went 
out. Got the notification it was back on about a day after it was back on...

-Curt

On Wednesday, September 13, 2023 at 04:53:54 PM EDT, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
 wrote: 





On Wed, Sep 13, 2023, at 15:47, mitch--- via Mercedes wrote:

> I'm subscribed to text alerts.
> Consumers Energy will send me a power restoration text about 5-15 
> minutes after it comes back on.

My REMC claims to offer that, but their texts are only loosely connected to 
reality.

> Alternately, I have a smart meter.
> I can periodically check to see if the meter's display is still blank.

That would probably work for me.


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

On Wed, Sep 13, 2023, at 15:47, mitch--- via Mercedes wrote:

> I'm subscribed to text alerts.
> Consumers Energy will send me a power restoration text about 5-15 
> minutes after it comes back on.

My REMC claims to offer that, but their texts are only loosely connected to 
reality.

> Alternately, I have a smart meter.
> I can periodically check to see if the meter's display is still blank.

That would probably work for me.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[mitch--- via Mercedes]

On 2023-09-13 16:18, Craig via Mercedes wrote:

On Wed, 13 Sep 2023 14:13:07 -0400 mitch--- via Mercedes



You can buy an interlock plate which is a sliding piece of sheet metal
which physically prevents you from having the topmost circuit breaker
and the main breaker turned on at the same time. I'm not up to date on
whether this is code compliant, but it does physically prevent
backfeeding the grid through the breaker the interlock blocks.


I bought a special lock-out meter panel for our house in Los Alamos 
when

we were remodeling it. That's the kind of lock-out device it came with.
I had no problem with the State Electrical Inspector approving it., but
then UL had approved it so I should not have.



I know it was code.
I also know that code keeps changing.
Like requiring $80 arc fault breakers instead of $8 regular breakers.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[mitch--- via Mercedes]

On 2023-09-13 16:29, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
I suppose the problem with manually reverse-feeding your whole house 
with a suicide cord off the generator is, how do you know when the 
utility power is back on?


I'm subscribed to text alerts.
Consumers Energy will send me a power restoration text about 5-15 
minutes after it comes back on.


Alternately, I have a smart meter.
I can periodically check to see if the meter's display is still blank.

Before smart meters, I had to go out in the garage, disconnect the 
generator, flip the main, and see if the lights came on in the garage. 
Or if I was lucky, a neighbor would call and tell me it's back on.


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 13/09/2023 3:29 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:

I suppose the problem with manually reverse-feeding your whole house with a 
suicide cord off the generator is, how do you know when the utility power is 
back on?


There will be real big sparks!

Randy


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

I suppose the problem with manually reverse-feeding your whole house with a 
suicide cord off the generator is, how do you know when the utility power is 
back on?

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Wed, 13 Sep 2023 14:13:07 -0400 mitch--- via Mercedes
 wrote:

> On 2023-09-13 14:01, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
> 
> > If you switch off the main breaker at the top of your panel, that
> > will stop any backfeeding out through the meter, correct? This is
> > what a proper transfer switch does automatically?
> 
> You can buy an interlock plate which is a sliding piece of sheet metal 
> which physically prevents you from having the topmost circuit breaker 
> and the main breaker turned on at the same time. I'm not up to date on 
> whether this is code compliant, but it does physically prevent 
> backfeeding the grid through the breaker the interlock blocks.

I bought a special lock-out meter panel for our house in Los Alamos when
we were remodeling it. That's the kind of lock-out device it came with.
I had no problem with the State Electrical Inspector approving it., but
then UL had approved it so I should not have.

The pictures are on a USB backup disk, else I would attach some of them.


Craig

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Its amazing.

The previous owner built it in 2007 with lumber he milled off his own land. Its 
tongue and groove and also bolted together. Not going to fall down in a hurry.

Some of the fittings aren't fantastic, the big side doors are kind of flimsy. 
Now that we've got the garage doors I'll spend some time fixing those.

 -Curt

On Wednesday, September 13, 2023 at 02:53:53 PM EDT, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
 wrote: 





Nice building.

Randy


On 13/09/2023 12:07 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:
> Garage doors are surprisingly expensive.
>
> Our barn in Maine had cutouts for garage doors on the south end: 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/xAZeQ5PAMp7F79W66 the doors openings are filled 
> with a kind of industrial belting used for paper making.
>
> Rocky Racoon moved in which I wouldn't mind so much if he didn't poop 
> everywhere so this year I had doors added: 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/WMnzjKVzJTmqEJYR9
>
> The openings were 9'x9' but 9 foot tall doors are tremendously expensive. Our 
> builder, who has also been working on the house, shrank the openings to 
> 8'x9'. Two doors, installed ran $6500...
>
> -Curt
>
>


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

Nice building.

Randy


On 13/09/2023 12:07 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:

Garage doors are surprisingly expensive.

Our barn in Maine had cutouts for garage doors on the south end: 
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xAZeQ5PAMp7F79W66 the doors openings are filled with 
a kind of industrial belting used for paper making.

Rocky Racoon moved in which I wouldn't mind so much if he didn't poop 
everywhere so this year I had doors added: 
https://photos.app.goo.gl/WMnzjKVzJTmqEJYR9

The openings were 9'x9' but 9 foot tall doors are tremendously expensive. Our 
builder, who has also been working on the house, shrank the openings to 8'x9'. 
Two doors, installed ran $6500...

-Curt





___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> You can buy an interlock plate which is a sliding piece of sheet metal which 
> physically prevents you from having the topmost circuit breaker and the main 
> breaker turned on at the same time. I'm not up to date on whether this is 
> code compliant, but it does physically prevent backfeeding the grid through 
> the breaker the interlock blocks.

I think this is code-compliant, at least sometimes.  This is the 'cheap' way to 
have
a manually-enabled dedicated generator circuit, officially.

Great for new construction, but not usually an option later.

The thing I loathe is the subpanel that the generator runs.  You have to choose,
at construction time, which circuits are capable of being generator-run and 
which
are not.  I want to choose, dynamically.  The entire house is powered, and you 
simply
learn not to turn on too much or the generator breakers pop, and you have to 
rectify
the situation.

It's also good for training kids/wives about the value of turning off things 
when
you're not using them.

-- Jim


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[mitch--- via Mercedes]

On 2023-09-13 14:01, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:

If you switch off the main breaker at the top of your panel, that will 
stop any backfeeding out through the meter, correct? This is what a 
proper transfer switch does automatically?


You can buy an interlock plate which is a sliding piece of sheet metal 
which physically prevents you from having the topmost circuit breaker 
and the main breaker turned on at the same time. I'm not up to date on 
whether this is code compliant, but it does physically prevent 
backfeeding the grid through the breaker the interlock blocks.


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> If you switch off the main breaker at the top of your panel, that will stop 
> any backfeeding out through the meter, correct? This is what a proper 
> transfer switch does automatically?

Yes.

-- Jim


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

On Wed, Sep 13, 2023, at 12:56, Jim Cathey via Mercedes wrote:

> Not exactly true.  You can't connect LIVE utility power without a 
> breaker tripping.
> But you could attempt to back-feed your neighborhood if utility power 
> is off, which is Bad for several reasons.

If you switch off the main breaker at the top of your panel, that will stop any 
backfeeding out through the meter, correct? This is what a proper transfer 
switch does automatically?

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> by combining the two hot leads in the 240v circuit, you absolutely cannot 
> connect it and the utility power at the same time or a breaker will trip.

Not exactly true.  You can't connect LIVE utility power without a breaker 
tripping.
But you could attempt to back-feed your neighborhood if utility power is off, 
which
is Bad for several reasons.

The pins-o-death cables work, and are cost-effective, but are against code and 
more
than a little unsafe, and you MUST be diligent and smart.  I made a checklist, 
for both
power-out and power-back-on states.  Don't follow it, exactly, at your peril.

When I'm not using Big Bertha I'm using a Generattle 5kW, feeding an 
autotransformer
to keep the windings balanced.  It is a little-appreciated fact that the 
typical 5-6kW rope-pull
generator is actually TWO 2.5-3kW generators on one shaft.  The only way to get 
full output
from the generator is to balance the loads on the two windings.  If you just 
plug it into
the typical house using the 220V plug (typical) you run the risk of overloading 
one of the
two windings, and burning out your generator.

Certain 110/220V generators I'm aware of, like a Champion 3kW, has a gang switch
so that you can run a 30A RV plug at 110V, with no 220V at all.  One of those 
would drive
a house at 110V only, with no regard to balancing.  (But: no hot water, or 
stove/oven.)
Most dual-voltage generators don't have that kind of switch, and balancing is 
an issue.

Unless you use a balancing transformer, like I'm doing.  That way I can have 
full generator
rated power, with any mix of 110V and/or 220V loads, with no balancing issues.  
It's sweet,
but those transformers aren't particularly cheap.  (I got mine used, for $200.)

-- Jim


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

On Wed, Sep 13, 2023, at 12:07, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:

> The openings were 9'x9' but 9 foot tall doors are tremendously 
> expensive. Our builder, who has also been working on the house, shrank 
> the openings to 8'x9'. Two doors, installed ran $6500...

A friend was telling me the other day that the "standard size" for sliding 
doors (that you might have opening onto your back porch or patio) got smaller 
some years ago. So if you go shopping for a new sliding door, you'll find that 
you'll need an expensive "custom size" door now, rather than just being able to 
buy a standard one. Or you can frame in the opening and then figure out how to 
deal with your siding. Most people just use aluminum flashing which works but 
is kind of tacky.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[mitch--- via Mercedes]

On 2023-09-13 12:26, Donald Snook via Mercedes wrote:

My problem with the little portable was that I could run the 
refrigerator, a freezer, a few lights, maybe the TV and not much else. 
And that required running extension cords all over the house AND 
running home from work and filling it up with gas.


I used over a quart of gas in a 800W inverter generator during my last 3 
hr outage.
Made a 120v to 240v male to male extension cord, plugged it into the 
welder outlet in the garage. The good news is that it can run any 120v 
outlet in the house. The safe news is that buy combining the two hot 
leads in the 240v circuit, you absolutely cannot connect it and the 
utility power at the same time or a breaker will trip.


The bad news, as you mentioned, I've got to be there to make it happen. 
And with a 800W generator, I can run the fridge, or the freezer, or the 
furnace. I can probably start the furnace with the freezer running, but 
I can't start the fridge or freezer with anything else running, so I 
have to be there and switch from one appliance to another every hour or 
two. And that last part is why I bought a 3200W to replace the 800W.

The 3200 can run everything in the house that runs on 120V.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Garage doors are surprisingly expensive.

Our barn in Maine had cutouts for garage doors on the south end: 
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xAZeQ5PAMp7F79W66 the doors openings are filled with 
a kind of industrial belting used for paper making.

Rocky Racoon moved in which I wouldn't mind so much if he didn't poop 
everywhere so this year I had doors added: 
https://photos.app.goo.gl/WMnzjKVzJTmqEJYR9

The openings were 9'x9' but 9 foot tall doors are tremendously expensive. Our 
builder, who has also been working on the house, shrank the openings to 8'x9'. 
Two doors, installed ran $6500...

-Curt



On Wednesday, September 13, 2023 at 12:27:20 PM EDT, Donald Snook via Mercedes 
 wrote: 





Randy wrote: 

> The problem with the small portable generator, is that it may not work when 
> you need it. You need to start and run it often to ensure it works and most 
> folks will tire of that soon after they get it. I have a portable in the 
> shed. I would fire it up spring and fall and let it run a bit. The last time 
> I tried, it would not start. Old gas? Likely needs the carb cleaned.

My problem with the little portable was that I could run the refrigerator, a 
freezer, a few lights, maybe the TV and not much else. And that required 
running extension cords all over the house AND running home from work and 
filling it up with gas.  

Plus (and this happened after I decided to get a whole house generator) a small 
but efficient group of thieves hit my neighborhood a few weeks ago and stole my 
generator and my weedeater.  It was my mistake for leaving it in the carport.  
Apparently a BUNCH of people had stuff stolen.  

Next years home improvement project will be converting the carport into a 
garage. It’s plenty long (my 81 Cadillac fits in easily) and it’s plenty wide, 
but it needs a garage door.  Have to save up for it. 

Donald H. Snook


> On Sep 13, 2023, at 4:25 AM, dan penoff.com  wrote:
> 
> Diesels are routinely used in installations above 80kW-100kW and can be 
> located in outdoor enclosures.
> 
> Block heaters are a requirement and will keep the water jacket at or near 
> around 90F-100F for ease of starting.
> 
> Block heaters are standard on industrial units regardless of location.
> 
> -D
> 
>> On Sep 12, 2023, at 9:58 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> The problem with the small portable generator, is that it may not work when 
>> you need it. You need to start and run it often to ensure it works and most 
>> folks will tire of that soon after they get it. I have a portable in the 
>> shed. I would fire it up spring and fall and let it run a bit. The last time 
>> I tried, it would not start. Old gas? Likely needs the carb cleaned.
>> 
>> Can likely buy one that will run on propane which should avoid the awful 
>> gasoline we get now but one would need to have a supply of propane on hand. 
>> 20# might not last all that long.
>> 
>> Or, you folks down south can likely rely on a diesel generator. That might 
>> be a problem for me here in the cold winter. I would have trouble starting 
>> it.
>> 
>> Randy
>> 
 On 9/12/2023 5:13 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
>>> That seems like a lot of money for the convenience.
>>> 
>>> I can pay for replacing spoiled food in my freezer a lot of times with 
>>> $30,000.
>>> 
>>> If you're preparing for a possible extended outage as you might have in 
>>> hurricane areas, maybe. To me it doesn't make sense. Knock on wood, I've 
>>> never been without power for more than about 12 hours. I might think about 
>>> a portable generator that could keep my fridge running and maybe handle a 
>>> window AC unit.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Donald Snook via Mercedes]

Randy wrote: 

> The problem with the small portable generator, is that it may not work when 
> you need it. You need to start and run it often to ensure it works and most 
> folks will tire of that soon after they get it. I have a portable in the 
> shed. I would fire it up spring and fall and let it run a bit. The last time 
> I tried, it would not start. Old gas? Likely needs the carb cleaned.

My problem with the little portable was that I could run the refrigerator, a 
freezer, a few lights, maybe the TV and not much else. And that required 
running extension cords all over the house AND running home from work and 
filling it up with gas.  

Plus (and this happened after I decided to get a whole house generator) a small 
but efficient group of thieves hit my neighborhood a few weeks ago and stole my 
generator and my weedeater.  It was my mistake for leaving it in the carport.  
Apparently a BUNCH of people had stuff stolen.   

Next years home improvement project will be converting the carport into a 
garage. It’s plenty long (my 81 Cadillac fits in easily) and it’s plenty wide, 
but it needs a garage door.  Have to save up for it. 

Donald H. Snook


> On Sep 13, 2023, at 4:25 AM, dan penoff.com  wrote:
> 
> Diesels are routinely used in installations above 80kW-100kW and can be 
> located in outdoor enclosures.
> 
> Block heaters are a requirement and will keep the water jacket at or near 
> around 90F-100F for ease of starting.
> 
> Block heaters are standard on industrial units regardless of location.
> 
> -D
> 
>> On Sep 12, 2023, at 9:58 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> The problem with the small portable generator, is that it may not work when 
>> you need it. You need to start and run it often to ensure it works and most 
>> folks will tire of that soon after they get it. I have a portable in the 
>> shed. I would fire it up spring and fall and let it run a bit. The last time 
>> I tried, it would not start. Old gas? Likely needs the carb cleaned.
>> 
>> Can likely buy one that will run on propane which should avoid the awful 
>> gasoline we get now but one would need to have a supply of propane on hand. 
>> 20# might not last all that long.
>> 
>> Or, you folks down south can likely rely on a diesel generator. That might 
>> be a problem for me here in the cold winter. I would have trouble starting 
>> it.
>> 
>> Randy
>> 
 On 9/12/2023 5:13 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
>>> That seems like a lot of money for the convenience.
>>> 
>>> I can pay for replacing spoiled food in my freezer a lot of times with 
>>> $30,000.
>>> 
>>> If you're preparing for a possible extended outage as you might have in 
>>> hurricane areas, maybe. To me it doesn't make sense. Knock on wood, I've 
>>> never been without power for more than about 12 hours. I might think about 
>>> a portable generator that could keep my fridge running and maybe handle a 
>>> window AC unit.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

20# of propane is 4.6 gallons assuming you've actually gotten a complete fill. 
The trade in tanks are now down to 15# which is only 3.5 gallons.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record I put 1oz Seafoam gas additive per 
gallon of gasoline that goes into our generator at camp. It starts on the first 
or second pull pretty much no matter what. This is a "Champion" brand 3k unit 
that we've had probably 10 years now. It sits most of the time, we ran it for 
probably 30 hours this year running the AC (95F, 85% humidity) in early June 
and again in July. 

I changed the oil this year, first time since 2017 but it'd only had maybe 10 
run hours in that time.

 I'm 100% sold on Seafoam as a gas additive, it's reasonably inexpensive 
($0.50/oz) if you buy it in a gallon jug and a gallon will last most folks 
several years. In high doses it'll clean some varnish out, I had a Honda 
motorcycle with 4 carbs that would regularly gum up the needles in the carbs 
which would make it pee out the overflow. In that case I'd add a whole 12oz can 
of Seafoam to a couple gallons of gas. Run the bike a few minutes and then let 
it sit overnight. The next day the issue would be gone.

-Curt

On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 10:59:54 PM EDT, mitch--- via Mercedes 
 wrote: 





On 2023-09-12 21:57, Randy Bennell via Mercedes wrote:
> I have a portable in the shed. I would fire it up spring and fall and 
> let it run a bit. The last time I tried, it would not start. Old gas? 
> Likely needs the carb cleaned.

I run mine at least once a year. Shut off the fuel and let it die. 
Unplug the gravity feed fuel line, drain it into my lawnmower gas can. 
Change oil, and good for another year.

> 
> Can likely buy one that will run on propane which should avoid the 
> awful gasoline we get now but one would need to have a supply of 
> propane on hand. 20# might not last all that long.

I finally did that on a Labor Day weekend sale.
Was planning on buying a used $30 100lb tank, but what I thought was a 
5' hose turned out to be a 30" hose, and I can't connect my new 
generator to a 100lb tallboy tank unless I build a wooden rack to hold 
the tank on an incline (or place the generator on an elevated platform). 
It'll run about a day on 20lb, or forever on a couple of 500 gallon 
tanks. But the big tanks are on the opposite end of the house from the 
breaker box so it'd take a long hose or wire run to connect.
  https://www.ebay.com/itm/314644637511


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

Diesels are routinely used in installations above 80kW-100kW and can be located 
in outdoor enclosures.

Block heaters are a requirement and will keep the water jacket at or near 
around 90F-100F for ease of starting.

Block heaters are standard on industrial units regardless of location.

-D

> On Sep 12, 2023, at 9:58 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> The problem with the small portable generator, is that it may not work when 
> you need it. You need to start and run it often to ensure it works and most 
> folks will tire of that soon after they get it. I have a portable in the 
> shed. I would fire it up spring and fall and let it run a bit. The last time 
> I tried, it would not start. Old gas? Likely needs the carb cleaned.
> 
> Can likely buy one that will run on propane which should avoid the awful 
> gasoline we get now but one would need to have a supply of propane on hand. 
> 20# might not last all that long.
> 
> Or, you folks down south can likely rely on a diesel generator. That might be 
> a problem for me here in the cold winter. I would have trouble starting it.
> 
> Randy
> 
>> On 9/12/2023 5:13 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
>> That seems like a lot of money for the convenience.
>> 
>> I can pay for replacing spoiled food in my freezer a lot of times with 
>> $30,000.
>> 
>> If you're preparing for a possible extended outage as you might have in 
>> hurricane areas, maybe. To me it doesn't make sense. Knock on wood, I've 
>> never been without power for more than about 12 hours. I might think about a 
>> portable generator that could keep my fridge running and maybe handle a 
>> window AC unit.
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[mitch--- via Mercedes]

On 2023-09-12 21:57, Randy Bennell via Mercedes wrote:
I have a portable in the shed. I would fire it up spring and fall and 
let it run a bit. The last time I tried, it would not start. Old gas? 
Likely needs the carb cleaned.


I run mine at least once a year. Shut off the fuel and let it die. 
Unplug the gravity feed fuel line, drain it into my lawnmower gas can. 
Change oil, and good for another year.




Can likely buy one that will run on propane which should avoid the 
awful gasoline we get now but one would need to have a supply of 
propane on hand. 20# might not last all that long.


I finally did that on a Labor Day weekend sale.
Was planning on buying a used $30 100lb tank, but what I thought was a 
5' hose turned out to be a 30" hose, and I can't connect my new 
generator to a 100lb tallboy tank unless I build a wooden rack to hold 
the tank on an incline (or place the generator on an elevated platform). 
It'll run about a day on 20lb, or forever on a couple of 500 gallon 
tanks. But the big tanks are on the opposite end of the house from the 
breaker box so it'd take a long hose or wire run to connect.

 https://www.ebay.com/itm/314644637511

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

Yeah small engines are a PITA if they don't get used regularly. For sure it 
would be worth buying ethanol-free gas.

Letting the carb run dry each time you put it away is probably good too.


On Tue, Sep 12, 2023, at 20:57, Randy Bennell via Mercedes wrote:
> The problem with the small portable generator, is that it may not work 
> when you need it. You need to start and run it often to ensure it works 
> and most folks will tire of that soon after they get it. I have a 
> portable in the shed. I would fire it up spring and fall and let it run 
> a bit. The last time I tried, it would not start. Old gas? Likely needs 
> the carb cleaned.
>
> Can likely buy one that will run on propane which should avoid the awful 
> gasoline we get now but one would need to have a supply of propane on 
> hand. 20# might not last all that long.
>
> Or, you folks down south can likely rely on a diesel generator. That 
> might be a problem for me here in the cold winter. I would have trouble 
> starting it.
>
> Randy
>
> On 9/12/2023 5:13 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
>> That seems like a lot of money for the convenience.
>>
>> I can pay for replacing spoiled food in my freezer a lot of times with 
>> $30,000.
>>
>> If you're preparing for a possible extended outage as you might have in 
>> hurricane areas, maybe. To me it doesn't make sense. Knock on wood, I've 
>> never been without power for more than about 12 hours. I might think about a 
>> portable generator that could keep my fridge running and maybe handle a 
>> window AC unit.
>>
>>
>>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

The problem with the small portable generator, is that it may not work 
when you need it. You need to start and run it often to ensure it works 
and most folks will tire of that soon after they get it. I have a 
portable in the shed. I would fire it up spring and fall and let it run 
a bit. The last time I tried, it would not start. Old gas? Likely needs 
the carb cleaned.


Can likely buy one that will run on propane which should avoid the awful 
gasoline we get now but one would need to have a supply of propane on 
hand. 20# might not last all that long.


Or, you folks down south can likely rely on a diesel generator. That 
might be a problem for me here in the cold winter. I would have trouble 
starting it.


Randy

On 9/12/2023 5:13 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:

That seems like a lot of money for the convenience.

I can pay for replacing spoiled food in my freezer a lot of times with $30,000.

If you're preparing for a possible extended outage as you might have in 
hurricane areas, maybe. To me it doesn't make sense. Knock on wood, I've never 
been without power for more than about 12 hours. I might think about a portable 
generator that could keep my fridge running and maybe handle a window AC unit.





___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Donald Snook via Mercedes]

Mine didn’t cost $30K. And last winter was rough because we were a week without 
power.  The times it has gone out this summer were inconvenient, but not 
deadly.  My problem is all the HUGE old trees in my neighborhood means this is 
likely going to continue. 

Donald H. Snook


> On Sep 12, 2023, at 5:13 PM, Allan Streib  wrote:
> 
> That seems like a lot of money for the convenience.
> 
> I can pay for replacing spoiled food in my freezer a lot of times with 
> $30,000.
> 
> If you're preparing for a possible extended outage as you might have in 
> hurricane areas, maybe. To me it doesn't make sense. Knock on wood, I've 
> never been without power for more than about 12 hours. I might think about a 
> portable generator that could keep my fridge running and maybe handle a 
> window AC unit.
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Sep 12, 2023, at 15:57, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote:
>> Generac is the top consumer-grade standby generator. The industrial 
>> business considers them the “KMart” of the industry, a label they 
>> earned in that market in my opinion. However, they have done very, very 
>> well in the consumer market, and while their products are still 
>> somewhat over-engineered at times, they do a good job of balancing 
>> quality and value. They brand label for just about anyone who wants to 
>> market their own home standby generator, so it’s not unusual to see 
>> them branded under other names, like Honeywell or Dayton, for example.
>> 
>> Nearly everything they make below 20kW is 3600 RPM or slightly lower if 
>> it’s gear-driven, although I don’t think they make any gear-driven 
>> consumer sets. The alternative is 1800 RPM sets, which are not 
>> typically offered below 20kW. What does that mean?
>> 
>> 3600 RPM Pros:
>> 
>> Smaller engine running at a high speed, up on the torque/HP curve, 
>> cheaper than larger engines to produce the same power @1800 RPM
>> Two pole alternator, less mass, less copper, cheaper to produce
>> Running faster and higher on the power curve makes it more responsive 
>> to small changes under load
>> 
>> 3600 RPM Cons:
>> 
>> Engine running at higher speed consumes a lot of fuel
>> Engine running at higher speed needs a lot of air for cooling, lots of 
>> noise associated with the cooling system and alternator fan
>> Engine running at higher speeds wears faster, requires more 
>> service/maintenance
>> Lack of mass (2 pole vs. 4 pole rotor, lighter engine) makes recovery 
>> from heavy loads slower
>> 
>> This makes a 3600 RPM set sound like it’s going to be a piece of junk 
>> in short order if it doesn’t fling itself apart. Not so. Think of it as 
>> a 2500-hour product (a swag, I don’t know what the projected life is on 
>> these.) Even if you run 100 hours a year between exercising and 
>> outages, you’re looking at a 25 year product. That is a heck of a deal 
>> for most consumers.
>> 
>> To give one an idea of costs, my equipment and installation, including 
>> the initial tank fill, was in the $30k range. That was tank 
>> installation, boring a line under my driveway and to the back of my 
>> house, a poured slab with stub ups, all conduit, wiring, transfer 
>> switch, permitting, etc., etc., etc. The generator and transfer switch 
>> were about 2/3 of that cost. The typical installation is usually equal 
>> to or more than the cost of the generator itself. That’s what trips a 
>> lot of people up when they look at these in Home Depot or Lowe’s after 
>> the latest storm. “Oh, $7k for a home standby generator! Let’s do it!”
>> 
>> Then they get the cost of the installation and it’s another $7k. Ouch!
>> 
>> My Kohler is a 24kW 1800 RPM unit. Other than the housing and controls, 
>> it’s pretty much identical to its industrial counterpart, which is why 
>> it was a greater part of the total cost.
>> 
>> -D
>> 
>> 
>> 
 On Sep 12, 2023, at 4:37 PM, Donald Snook  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Generac — sort of. We bought it from Generac. It is warranted by Generac. 
>>> The paperwork all
>>> Says Generac.  The housing says “Honeywell”. Apparently, Generac builds 
>>> them and brands them Honeywell but if you life the cover everything inside 
>>> says Generac.  It’s a 24 KW like yours.  And yes, now that we have the 
>>> generator, it will probably be the calmest fall, winter, and summer in 100 
>>> years. 
>>> 
>>> Donald H. Snook
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sep 12, 2023, at 3:26 PM, dan penoff.com  wrote:
 
 Kohler or Generac?
 
 I was in the “business” for 25 years, Donald, working for Kohler on the 
 industrial side of the standby generator business. I have a Kohler 24kW 
 propane-fueled set in my backyard. With the 1,000-gallon LP tank buried in 
 my front yard, I have about 15-20 days of whole-house operation before 
 needing to refuel. If things really tank we would probably bug out well 
 before that.
 
 Not one single outage since it was installed 3 years ago.
 
 -D
 
> On Sep 12, 2023, at 4:19 PM, Donald Snook via 

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

Yes, it was a big chunk of change, for sure. Not that it matters, but we bought 
the house directly from a friend at a significant discount. Because of the lead 
time to acquire and install the equipment, we couldn’t wrap it into our 
mortgage, so we just paid out of pocket and considered it a part of the cost of 
the house.

There have been several instances in the past 25 years we have lived here where 
hurricanes damaged the infrastructure so badly that adjacent neighborhoods were 
without power for as many as seven days. Yes, we would lose food, but with the 
heat (almost 100F today) and humidity (73%) any structure without air 
conditioning would be covered with mold, or the beginnings of it, by the end of 
a week, if not before. Books, papers, artwork, furniture, it would all be 
damaged.

-D

> On Sep 12, 2023, at 6:13 PM, Allan Streib  wrote:
> 
> That seems like a lot of money for the convenience.
> 
> I can pay for replacing spoiled food in my freezer a lot of times with 
> $30,000.
> 
> If you're preparing for a possible extended outage as you might have in 
> hurricane areas, maybe. To me it doesn't make sense. Knock on wood, I've 
> never been without power for more than about 12 hours. I might think about a 
> portable generator that could keep my fridge running and maybe handle a 
> window AC unit.
> 
> 
> On Tue, Sep 12, 2023, at 15:57, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote:
>> Generac is the top consumer-grade standby generator. The industrial 
>> business considers them the “KMart” of the industry, a label they 
>> earned in that market in my opinion. However, they have done very, very 
>> well in the consumer market, and while their products are still 
>> somewhat over-engineered at times, they do a good job of balancing 
>> quality and value. They brand label for just about anyone who wants to 
>> market their own home standby generator, so it’s not unusual to see 
>> them branded under other names, like Honeywell or Dayton, for example.
>> 
>> Nearly everything they make below 20kW is 3600 RPM or slightly lower if 
>> it’s gear-driven, although I don’t think they make any gear-driven 
>> consumer sets. The alternative is 1800 RPM sets, which are not 
>> typically offered below 20kW. What does that mean?
>> 
>> 3600 RPM Pros:
>> 
>> Smaller engine running at a high speed, up on the torque/HP curve, 
>> cheaper than larger engines to produce the same power @1800 RPM
>> Two pole alternator, less mass, less copper, cheaper to produce
>> Running faster and higher on the power curve makes it more responsive 
>> to small changes under load
>> 
>> 3600 RPM Cons:
>> 
>> Engine running at higher speed consumes a lot of fuel
>> Engine running at higher speed needs a lot of air for cooling, lots of 
>> noise associated with the cooling system and alternator fan
>> Engine running at higher speeds wears faster, requires more 
>> service/maintenance
>> Lack of mass (2 pole vs. 4 pole rotor, lighter engine) makes recovery 
>> from heavy loads slower
>> 
>> This makes a 3600 RPM set sound like it’s going to be a piece of junk 
>> in short order if it doesn’t fling itself apart. Not so. Think of it as 
>> a 2500-hour product (a swag, I don’t know what the projected life is on 
>> these.) Even if you run 100 hours a year between exercising and 
>> outages, you’re looking at a 25 year product. That is a heck of a deal 
>> for most consumers.
>> 
>> To give one an idea of costs, my equipment and installation, including 
>> the initial tank fill, was in the $30k range. That was tank 
>> installation, boring a line under my driveway and to the back of my 
>> house, a poured slab with stub ups, all conduit, wiring, transfer 
>> switch, permitting, etc., etc., etc. The generator and transfer switch 
>> were about 2/3 of that cost. The typical installation is usually equal 
>> to or more than the cost of the generator itself. That’s what trips a 
>> lot of people up when they look at these in Home Depot or Lowe’s after 
>> the latest storm. “Oh, $7k for a home standby generator! Let’s do it!”
>> 
>> Then they get the cost of the installation and it’s another $7k. Ouch!
>> 
>> My Kohler is a 24kW 1800 RPM unit. Other than the housing and controls, 
>> it’s pretty much identical to its industrial counterpart, which is why 
>> it was a greater part of the total cost.
>> 
>> -D
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 12, 2023, at 4:37 PM, Donald Snook  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Generac — sort of. We bought it from Generac. It is warranted by Generac. 
>>> The paperwork all
>>> Says Generac.  The housing says “Honeywell”. Apparently, Generac builds 
>>> them and brands them Honeywell but if you life the cover everything inside 
>>> says Generac.  It’s a 24 KW like yours.  And yes, now that we have the 
>>> generator, it will probably be the calmest fall, winter, and summer in 100 
>>> years. 
>>> 
>>> Donald H. Snook
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sep 12, 2023, at 3:26 PM, dan penoff.com  wrote:
 
 Kohler or Generac?
 
 I was in the 

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

A rope-pull unit is entirely adequate for emergencies.  What you lack
is comfort and convenience.  We lose power for a day or more every
year or two.  The longest was 6 days.  Exclusively in deep winter, I
might add.  That longest one was weathered using a little 1800W
camping unit.  It was a big PITA, but allowed living at home and
kept the half beef (organic, grass-fed) frozen.  I have upgraded
since.

-- Jim


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

That seems like a lot of money for the convenience.

I can pay for replacing spoiled food in my freezer a lot of times with $30,000.

If you're preparing for a possible extended outage as you might have in 
hurricane areas, maybe. To me it doesn't make sense. Knock on wood, I've never 
been without power for more than about 12 hours. I might think about a portable 
generator that could keep my fridge running and maybe handle a window AC unit.


On Tue, Sep 12, 2023, at 15:57, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote:
> Generac is the top consumer-grade standby generator. The industrial 
> business considers them the “KMart” of the industry, a label they 
> earned in that market in my opinion. However, they have done very, very 
> well in the consumer market, and while their products are still 
> somewhat over-engineered at times, they do a good job of balancing 
> quality and value. They brand label for just about anyone who wants to 
> market their own home standby generator, so it’s not unusual to see 
> them branded under other names, like Honeywell or Dayton, for example.
>
> Nearly everything they make below 20kW is 3600 RPM or slightly lower if 
> it’s gear-driven, although I don’t think they make any gear-driven 
> consumer sets. The alternative is 1800 RPM sets, which are not 
> typically offered below 20kW. What does that mean?
>
> 3600 RPM Pros:
>
> Smaller engine running at a high speed, up on the torque/HP curve, 
> cheaper than larger engines to produce the same power @1800 RPM
> Two pole alternator, less mass, less copper, cheaper to produce
> Running faster and higher on the power curve makes it more responsive 
> to small changes under load
>
> 3600 RPM Cons:
>
> Engine running at higher speed consumes a lot of fuel
> Engine running at higher speed needs a lot of air for cooling, lots of 
> noise associated with the cooling system and alternator fan
> Engine running at higher speeds wears faster, requires more 
> service/maintenance
> Lack of mass (2 pole vs. 4 pole rotor, lighter engine) makes recovery 
> from heavy loads slower
>
> This makes a 3600 RPM set sound like it’s going to be a piece of junk 
> in short order if it doesn’t fling itself apart. Not so. Think of it as 
> a 2500-hour product (a swag, I don’t know what the projected life is on 
> these.) Even if you run 100 hours a year between exercising and 
> outages, you’re looking at a 25 year product. That is a heck of a deal 
> for most consumers.
>
> To give one an idea of costs, my equipment and installation, including 
> the initial tank fill, was in the $30k range. That was tank 
> installation, boring a line under my driveway and to the back of my 
> house, a poured slab with stub ups, all conduit, wiring, transfer 
> switch, permitting, etc., etc., etc. The generator and transfer switch 
> were about 2/3 of that cost. The typical installation is usually equal 
> to or more than the cost of the generator itself. That’s what trips a 
> lot of people up when they look at these in Home Depot or Lowe’s after 
> the latest storm. “Oh, $7k for a home standby generator! Let’s do it!”
>
> Then they get the cost of the installation and it’s another $7k. Ouch!
>
> My Kohler is a 24kW 1800 RPM unit. Other than the housing and controls, 
> it’s pretty much identical to its industrial counterpart, which is why 
> it was a greater part of the total cost.
>
> -D
>
>
>
>> On Sep 12, 2023, at 4:37 PM, Donald Snook  wrote:
>> 
>> Generac — sort of. We bought it from Generac. It is warranted by Generac. 
>> The paperwork all
>> Says Generac.  The housing says “Honeywell”. Apparently, Generac builds them 
>> and brands them Honeywell but if you life the cover everything inside says 
>> Generac.  It’s a 24 KW like yours.  And yes, now that we have the generator, 
>> it will probably be the calmest fall, winter, and summer in 100 years. 
>> 
>> Donald H. Snook
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 12, 2023, at 3:26 PM, dan penoff.com  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Kohler or Generac?
>>> 
>>> I was in the “business” for 25 years, Donald, working for Kohler on the 
>>> industrial side of the standby generator business. I have a Kohler 24kW 
>>> propane-fueled set in my backyard. With the 1,000-gallon LP tank buried in 
>>> my front yard, I have about 15-20 days of whole-house operation before 
>>> needing to refuel. If things really tank we would probably bug out well 
>>> before that.
>>> 
>>> Not one single outage since it was installed 3 years ago.
>>> 
>>> -D
>>> 
 On Sep 12, 2023, at 4:19 PM, Donald Snook via Mercedes 
  wrote:
 
 My neighborhood has a LOT of very large and old trees.  Just this year the 
 power has gone out 5 times.  We got pretty frustrated and decided to pull 
 the trigger on a whole generator that runs off natural gas that is coming 
 into the house anyway. It has an automatic switch and does everything on 
 its own.  Pretty amazing technology. 
 
 They just finished installing and testing it today.  Interestingly, 

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 20:26:31 + "dan penoff.com via Mercedes"
 wrote:

> I have a Kohler 24kW propane-fueled set in my backyard. With the
> 1,000-gallon LP tank buried in my front yard, I have about 15-20 days
> of whole-house operation before needing to refuel. If things really
> tank we would probably bug out well before that.

Is this the Florida casa?


Craig

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

Full inspection of all systems, diagnostic report, etc., etc., including their 
travel time and mileage. Last visit the starting battery had a cell that was a 
little low, so they replaced it under warranty.

Look at it this way: I worked on these things for years for a living, I didn’t 
do it for fun, although I did enjoy my work. It’s the last thing I want to do 
at home.

-D

> On Sep 12, 2023, at 5:42 PM, Craig via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 20:33:44 + "dan penoff.com via Mercedes"
>  wrote:
> 
>> It gets serviced twice a year for which I pay a local dealer $450. One
>> service includes an oil and filter change.
> 
> What else, besides the oil and filter change, do you get for your $450?
> 
> With all you do on cars, would not changing the oil and filter yourself
> make sense?
> 
> 
> Craig
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 20:33:44 + "dan penoff.com via Mercedes"
 wrote:

> It gets serviced twice a year for which I pay a local dealer $450. One
> service includes an oil and filter change.

What else, besides the oil and filter change, do you get for your $450?

With all you do on cars, would not changing the oil and filter yourself
make sense?


Craig

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 14:19:43 -0700 Jim Cathey via Mercedes
 wrote:

> For reference, TWO used batteries were $26 in 2006, and oil was
> $0.50/quart on sale at that time.  My, how times have changed!

Indeed.


Craig

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> And yes, now that we have the generator, it will probably be the calmest 
> fall, winter, and summer in 100 years. 

And isn't that what you want?  No electrical outages, regardless of 'cause'?

When Big Bertha's two batteries died, I replaced them.  Even though I've only
had to use that genny _twice_ since I got it usable in 2006.  It's ready to 
run, and
that seems to prevent me needing to run it.  I didn't want to have to raid two
vehicles for starting batteries if we should need it again, though as often as 
we
need it that wouldn't be that big a deal.  The hour meter (installed by me after
the rebuild) shows 8.6 hours.

I put two Battery Minders on them, and disconnected the intertie so they're 
electrically
isolated from each other.  That's a quick changeover to running configuration 
if/when.
(Unclip the tenders and insert the screw knob in the disconnect.)

(For those who don't know, Big Bertha is a 45kW 3-phase Hercules/Kohler from 
the 1960's,
delivering about 26kW when wired zig-zag.  I paid $400 for it as government 
surplus,
and put another $450 into a rebuild.  With tanks, hoses and miscellany I think 
I'm into it for
about $1000 all told.)

For reference, TWO used batteries were $26 in 2006, and oil was $0.50/quart on 
sale
at that time.  My, how times have changed!

-- Jim


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

Generac is the top consumer-grade standby generator. The industrial business 
considers them the “KMart” of the industry, a label they earned in that market 
in my opinion. However, they have done very, very well in the consumer market, 
and while their products are still somewhat over-engineered at times, they do a 
good job of balancing quality and value. They brand label for just about anyone 
who wants to market their own home standby generator, so it’s not unusual to 
see them branded under other names, like Honeywell or Dayton, for example.

Nearly everything they make below 20kW is 3600 RPM or slightly lower if it’s 
gear-driven, although I don’t think they make any gear-driven consumer sets. 
The alternative is 1800 RPM sets, which are not typically offered below 20kW. 
What does that mean?

3600 RPM Pros:

Smaller engine running at a high speed, up on the torque/HP curve, cheaper than 
larger engines to produce the same power @1800 RPM
Two pole alternator, less mass, less copper, cheaper to produce
Running faster and higher on the power curve makes it more responsive to small 
changes under load

3600 RPM Cons:

Engine running at higher speed consumes a lot of fuel
Engine running at higher speed needs a lot of air for cooling, lots of noise 
associated with the cooling system and alternator fan
Engine running at higher speeds wears faster, requires more service/maintenance
Lack of mass (2 pole vs. 4 pole rotor, lighter engine) makes recovery from 
heavy loads slower

This makes a 3600 RPM set sound like it’s going to be a piece of junk in short 
order if it doesn’t fling itself apart. Not so. Think of it as a 2500-hour 
product (a swag, I don’t know what the projected life is on these.) Even if you 
run 100 hours a year between exercising and outages, you’re looking at a 25 
year product. That is a heck of a deal for most consumers.

To give one an idea of costs, my equipment and installation, including the 
initial tank fill, was in the $30k range. That was tank installation, boring a 
line under my driveway and to the back of my house, a poured slab with stub 
ups, all conduit, wiring, transfer switch, permitting, etc., etc., etc. The 
generator and transfer switch were about 2/3 of that cost. The typical 
installation is usually equal to or more than the cost of the generator itself. 
That’s what trips a lot of people up when they look at these in Home Depot or 
Lowe’s after the latest storm. “Oh, $7k for a home standby generator! Let’s do 
it!”

Then they get the cost of the installation and it’s another $7k. Ouch!

My Kohler is a 24kW 1800 RPM unit. Other than the housing and controls, it’s 
pretty much identical to its industrial counterpart, which is why it was a 
greater part of the total cost.

-D



> On Sep 12, 2023, at 4:37 PM, Donald Snook  wrote:
> 
> Generac — sort of. We bought it from Generac. It is warranted by Generac. The 
> paperwork all
> Says Generac.  The housing says “Honeywell”. Apparently, Generac builds them 
> and brands them Honeywell but if you life the cover everything inside says 
> Generac.  It’s a 24 KW like yours.  And yes, now that we have the generator, 
> it will probably be the calmest fall, winter, and summer in 100 years. 
> 
> Donald H. Snook
> 
> 
>> On Sep 12, 2023, at 3:26 PM, dan penoff.com  wrote:
>> 
>> Kohler or Generac?
>> 
>> I was in the “business” for 25 years, Donald, working for Kohler on the 
>> industrial side of the standby generator business. I have a Kohler 24kW 
>> propane-fueled set in my backyard. With the 1,000-gallon LP tank buried in 
>> my front yard, I have about 15-20 days of whole-house operation before 
>> needing to refuel. If things really tank we would probably bug out well 
>> before that.
>> 
>> Not one single outage since it was installed 3 years ago.
>> 
>> -D
>> 
>>> On Sep 12, 2023, at 4:19 PM, Donald Snook via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> My neighborhood has a LOT of very large and old trees.  Just this year the 
>>> power has gone out 5 times.  We got pretty frustrated and decided to pull 
>>> the trigger on a whole generator that runs off natural gas that is coming 
>>> into the house anyway. It has an automatic switch and does everything on 
>>> its own.  Pretty amazing technology. 
>>> 
>>> They just finished installing and testing it today.  Interestingly, there 
>>> is no maintenance for the first two years. The first thing is an oil change 
>>> in two years which is included in the “free” maintenance for 5 years.   I 
>>> wasn’t there today when they finished installation. It would have been 
>>> interesting to watch.  
>>> 
>>> Donald H. Snook
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>> 

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list 

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Donald Snook via Mercedes]

Generac — sort of. We bought it from Generac. It is warranted by Generac. The 
paperwork all
Says Generac.  The housing says “Honeywell”. Apparently, Generac builds them 
and brands them Honeywell but if you life the cover everything inside says 
Generac.  It’s a 24 KW like yours.  And yes, now that we have the generator, it 
will probably be the calmest fall, winter, and summer in 100 years. 

Donald H. Snook


> On Sep 12, 2023, at 3:26 PM, dan penoff.com  wrote:
> 
> Kohler or Generac?
> 
> I was in the “business” for 25 years, Donald, working for Kohler on the 
> industrial side of the standby generator business. I have a Kohler 24kW 
> propane-fueled set in my backyard. With the 1,000-gallon LP tank buried in my 
> front yard, I have about 15-20 days of whole-house operation before needing 
> to refuel. If things really tank we would probably bug out well before that.
> 
> Not one single outage since it was installed 3 years ago.
> 
> -D
> 
>> On Sep 12, 2023, at 4:19 PM, Donald Snook via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> My neighborhood has a LOT of very large and old trees.  Just this year the 
>> power has gone out 5 times.  We got pretty frustrated and decided to pull 
>> the trigger on a whole generator that runs off natural gas that is coming 
>> into the house anyway. It has an automatic switch and does everything on its 
>> own.  Pretty amazing technology. 
>> 
>> They just finished installing and testing it today.  Interestingly, there is 
>> no maintenance for the first two years. The first thing is an oil change in 
>> two years which is included in the “free” maintenance for 5 years.   I 
>> wasn’t there today when they finished installation. It would have been 
>> interesting to watch.  
>> 
>> Donald H. Snook
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
> 

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Donald Snook via Mercedes]

Mine is a Generac. They said two years for the first oil change unless we run 
it more than 200 hours. So, I guess that means every 200 hours or 2 years 
whichever comes first. 

Donald H. Snook


> On Sep 12, 2023, at 3:21 PM, mi...@mitchellhaley.com wrote:
> 
> Generac wants me to change oil in the air-cooled 7k every year if not used 
> or every xx hours if used.
> 
> 

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

Nearly every home standby set (and most commercial/industrial ones, too) have 
“exercise clocks” or timers that run the unit weekly for a short time to 
“exercise” it. I’m sure Donald’s does, regardless of brand.

Mine runs for 20 minutes every Monday at 11:00. Because it’s in a 
sound-attenuated enclosure, if I’m not out there right next to it I have no 
idea if it’s running or not. In fact, my AC compressor is about 10 feet from 
the generator, and it’s louder. However, even if I don’t catch it, the run is 
logged along with all the operating parameters and of course, there’s an hour 
meter as well.

It gets serviced twice a year for which I pay a local dealer $450. One service 
includes an oil and filter change.

-D

> On Sep 12, 2023, at 4:27 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> At work they have backup diesel generators on many of the buildings. They 
> have to "exercise" them every so often (monthly? quarterly?) wondering if 
> your system came with any instructions i.e. "run it up to operating 
> temperature every 30 days" 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Sep 12, 2023, at 15:19, Donald Snook via Mercedes wrote:
>> My neighborhood has a LOT of very large and old trees.  Just this year 
>> the power has gone out 5 times.  We got pretty frustrated and decided 
>> to pull the trigger on a whole generator that runs off natural gas that 
>> is coming into the house anyway. It has an automatic switch and does 
>> everything on its own.  Pretty amazing technology. 
>> 
>> They just finished installing and testing it today.  Interestingly, 
>> there is no maintenance for the first two years. The first thing is an 
>> oil change in two years which is included in the “free” maintenance for 
>> 5 years.   I wasn’t there today when they finished installation. It 
>> would have been interesting to watch.  
>> 
>> Donald H. Snook
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Donald Snook via Mercedes]

It will “exercise” every Thursday.  It’s funny you used that term because that 
is exactly what the installer said. 

Donald H. Snook


> On Sep 12, 2023, at 3:27 PM, Allan Streib  wrote:
> 
> At work they have backup diesel generators on many of the buildings. They 
> have to "exercise" them every so often (monthly? quarterly?) wondering if 
> your system came with any instructions i.e. "run it up to operating 
> temperature every 30 days" 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Sep 12, 2023, at 15:19, Donald Snook via Mercedes wrote:
>> My neighborhood has a LOT of very large and old trees.  Just this year 
>> the power has gone out 5 times.  We got pretty frustrated and decided 
>> to pull the trigger on a whole generator that runs off natural gas that 
>> is coming into the house anyway. It has an automatic switch and does 
>> everything on its own.  Pretty amazing technology. 
>> 
>> They just finished installing and testing it today.  Interestingly, 
>> there is no maintenance for the first two years. The first thing is an 
>> oil change in two years which is included in the “free” maintenance for 
>> 5 years.   I wasn’t there today when they finished installation. It 
>> would have been interesting to watch.  
>> 
>> Donald H. Snook
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[mitch--- via Mercedes]

On 2023-09-12 16:27, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
At work they have backup diesel generators on many of the buildings. 
They have to "exercise" them every so often (monthly? quarterly?) 
wondering if your system came with any instructions i.e. "run it up to 
operating temperature every 30 days"



My little (7kW) Generac fires itself up once a week and runs for ten 
minutes.


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

It's amazing how weak the storms became after we purchased a generator.

On Tue, Sep 12, 2023 at 4:28 PM Allan Streib via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> At work they have backup diesel generators on many of the buildings. They
> have to "exercise" them every so often (monthly? quarterly?) wondering if
> your system came with any instructions i.e. "run it up to operating
> temperature every 30 days"
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 12, 2023, at 15:19, Donald Snook via Mercedes wrote:
> > My neighborhood has a LOT of very large and old trees.  Just this year
> > the power has gone out 5 times.  We got pretty frustrated and decided
> > to pull the trigger on a whole generator that runs off natural gas that
> > is coming into the house anyway. It has an automatic switch and does
> > everything on its own.  Pretty amazing technology.
> >
> > They just finished installing and testing it today.  Interestingly,
> > there is no maintenance for the first two years. The first thing is an
> > oil change in two years which is included in the “free” maintenance for
> > 5 years.   I wasn’t there today when they finished installation. It
> > would have been interesting to watch.
> >
> > Donald H. Snook
> >
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

At work they have backup diesel generators on many of the buildings. They have 
to "exercise" them every so often (monthly? quarterly?) wondering if your 
system came with any instructions i.e. "run it up to operating temperature 
every 30 days" 



On Tue, Sep 12, 2023, at 15:19, Donald Snook via Mercedes wrote:
> My neighborhood has a LOT of very large and old trees.  Just this year 
> the power has gone out 5 times.  We got pretty frustrated and decided 
> to pull the trigger on a whole generator that runs off natural gas that 
> is coming into the house anyway. It has an automatic switch and does 
> everything on its own.  Pretty amazing technology. 
>
> They just finished installing and testing it today.  Interestingly, 
> there is no maintenance for the first two years. The first thing is an 
> oil change in two years which is included in the “free” maintenance for 
> 5 years.   I wasn’t there today when they finished installation. It 
> would have been interesting to watch.  
>
> Donald H. Snook
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

Kohler or Generac?

I was in the “business” for 25 years, Donald, working for Kohler on the 
industrial side of the standby generator business. I have a Kohler 24kW 
propane-fueled set in my backyard. With the 1,000-gallon LP tank buried in my 
front yard, I have about 15-20 days of whole-house operation before needing to 
refuel. If things really tank we would probably bug out well before that.

Not one single outage since it was installed 3 years ago.

-D

> On Sep 12, 2023, at 4:19 PM, Donald Snook via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> My neighborhood has a LOT of very large and old trees.  Just this year the 
> power has gone out 5 times.  We got pretty frustrated and decided to pull the 
> trigger on a whole generator that runs off natural gas that is coming into 
> the house anyway. It has an automatic switch and does everything on its own.  
> Pretty amazing technology. 
> 
> They just finished installing and testing it today.  Interestingly, there is 
> no maintenance for the first two years. The first thing is an oil change in 
> two years which is included in the “free” maintenance for 5 years.   I wasn’t 
> there today when they finished installation. It would have been interesting 
> to watch.  
> 
> Donald H. Snook
> 
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT whole house generator

[mitch--- via Mercedes]

Generac wants me to change oil in the air-cooled 7k every year if not 
used or every xx hours if used.


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

[MBZ] OT whole house generator

[Donald Snook via Mercedes]

My neighborhood has a LOT of very large and old trees.  Just this year the 
power has gone out 5 times.  We got pretty frustrated and decided to pull the 
trigger on a whole generator that runs off natural gas that is coming into the 
house anyway. It has an automatic switch and does everything on its own.  
Pretty amazing technology. 

They just finished installing and testing it today.  Interestingly, there is no 
maintenance for the first two years. The first thing is an oil change in two 
years which is included in the “free” maintenance for 5 years.   I wasn’t there 
today when they finished installation. It would have been interesting to watch. 
 

Donald H. Snook


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com