Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
Hmm, another slight bit of confusion... If I shift into L, then 2 then L again it'll go into first at a standstill... It still needs adjustment, its hard to get it into first with the pedal. -Curt --- On Sun, 3/6/11, David Bruckmann bruckma...@transcontinental.ca wrote: From: David Bruckmann bruckma...@transcontinental.ca Subject: Re: California Version - 1985 300TD To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Cc: Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com Date: Sunday, March 6, 2011, 11:58 PM Finally dredged up my TDM. Boiled down version: Non-turbos 123.123 (240D), 123.130 (300D), 123.190 (300TD) up to 1979: start in second, no kickdown unless full throttle applied. 1980 to September 1984: 123.12x; 123.13x and 123.19x (turbo and non-turbo): idle in second, kickdown to first with the slightest application of the accelerator. October 1984 (= 1985 model year) to end of series 123: idle in first and start in first without any application of accelerator pedal. They will also shift down into first when approaching a standstill (at about 13km/h). 1985 California version is basically identical to Federal except that the 1-2 shift happens at a slightly (2-5km/h) lower speed, and the stall speed on the torque converter is higher (2400-2700 vs 2100-2300 Federal). Other shift behaviour is same as Federal. Curt Raymond wrote: My '84 190D doesn't kick down unless I cram down on the go pedal, even then sometimes theres a long delay before it kicks down. To Curt's point: oddly, the 1984/85 190E 2.3 (201.024) and 190D 2.2 (201.122), as well as a couple of Euro 123, 124 and 126 gasser models, start in second no matter the position of the shift lever. The only way to get into first is indeed to use the pedal to kick down. I assume this related to the shift gate being labelled D/3/2 instead of D/S/L. So Curt, no adjustments needed on your 190D! D. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 8:58 PM, David Bruckmann bruckma...@transcontinental.ca wrote: To Curt's point: oddly, the 1984/85 190E 2.3 (201.024) and 190D 2.2 (201.122), as well as a couple of Euro 123, 124 and 126 gasser models, start in second no matter the position of the shift lever. The only way to get into first is indeed to use the pedal to kick down. I find this hard to believe. Do you mean that you can't force the transmission into first even by moving the lever to position 2 at a stop? Why would D-B go to the trouble of making a special transmission without this feature? It wouldn't affect fuel economy ratings, since the transmission would behave the same if left in D. I assume this related to the shift gate being labelled D/3/2 instead of D/S/L. FWIW, both of the 722.x cars I have, an '86 300E and '87 300D, have the same shift gate, yet the 300D starts in first and the 300E in second (but can be forced to start in first by putting the lever in position 2 when stopped). The shift gate is not a reliable indicator of transmission behavior. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
The TDM lists specific models with this won't shift down behaviour. Some 123/124/201 models behave differently than others, and as you say the shift gate pattern is no particular indicator. Specifically, the 1984/85 190E 2.3 and 190D 2.2 are listed in the TDM, but it presumably boils down to a specific build date that may or may not coincide with the model year. IIRC there are also a couple of 124 models listed, but I don't have the TDM with me and so cannot look them up right now. Curt: what is the build date on your 190D, and is it a 2.2? Alex Chamberlain wrote: I find this hard to believe. Do you mean that you can't force the transmission into first even by moving the lever to position 2 at a stop? Why would D-B go to the trouble of making a special transmission without this feature? It wouldn't affect fuel economy ratings, since the transmission would behave the same if left in D. I assume this related to the shift gate being labelled D/3/2 instead of D/S/L. FWIW, both of the 722.x cars I have, an '86 300E and '87 300D, have the same shift gate, yet the 300D starts in first and the 300E in second (but can be forced to start in first by putting the lever in position 2 when stopped). The shift gate is not a reliable indicator of transmission behavior. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
Its an '84, presumably an early one, how do I find the build date? It is indeed a 2.2l. Interesting things about this car: Mono wiper with no in/out thingie Glow plug light on the left side of the steering wheel 14 wheels with their special bolts and other stuff I've surely forgotten.. -Curt Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 14:02:47 -0800 From: David Bruckmann bruckma...@transcontinental.ca To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD Message-ID: f06240802c99ae4d43512@[192.168.2.108] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The TDM lists specific models with this won't shift down behaviour. Some 123/124/201 models behave differently than others, and as you say the shift gate pattern is no particular indicator. Specifically, the 1984/85 190E 2.3 and 190D 2.2 are listed in the TDM, but it presumably boils down to a specific build date that may or may not coincide with the model year. IIRC there are also a couple of 124 models listed, but I don't have the TDM with me and so cannot look them up right now. Curt: what is the build date on your 190D, and is it a 2.2? Alex Chamberlain wrote: I find this hard to believe. Do you mean that you can't force the transmission into first even by moving the lever to position 2 at a stop? Why would D-B go to the trouble of making a special transmission without this feature? It wouldn't affect fuel economy ratings, since the transmission would behave the same if left in D. I assume this related to the shift gate being labelled D/3/2 instead of D/S/L. FWIW, both of the 722.x cars I have, an '86 300E and '87 300D, have the same shift gate, yet the 300D starts in first and the 300E in second (but can be forced to start in first by putting the lever in position 2 when stopped). The shift gate is not a reliable indicator of transmission behavior. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
Hey, Curt. Send me the chassis number, and the engines number, I may well have a spare head for you, new valves and all. Fred Moir Lynn MA Diesel preferred On 3/7/2011 9:28 PM, Curt Raymond wrote: Its an '84, presumably an early one, how do I find the build date? It is indeed a 2.2l. Interesting things about this car: Mono wiper with no in/out thingie Glow plug light on the left side of the steering wheel 14 wheels with their special bolts and other stuff I've surely forgotten.. -Curt ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
Build date (month and year) is usually stamped on the data plate on the driver's door latch post; for example 2/84, 12/83, or 6/84, etc. Wilton - Original Message - From: Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com To: Diesel List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD Its an '84, presumably an early one, how do I find the build date? It is indeed a 2.2l. Interesting things about this car: Mono wiper with no in/out thingie Glow plug light on the left side of the steering wheel 14 wheels with their special bolts and other stuff I've surely forgotten.. -Curt Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 14:02:47 -0800 From: David Bruckmann bruckma...@transcontinental.ca To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD Message-ID: f06240802c99ae4d43512@[192.168.2.108] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The TDM lists specific models with this won't shift down behaviour. Some 123/124/201 models behave differently than others, and as you say the shift gate pattern is no particular indicator. Specifically, the 1984/85 190E 2.3 and 190D 2.2 are listed in the TDM, but it presumably boils down to a specific build date that may or may not coincide with the model year. IIRC there are also a couple of 124 models listed, but I don't have the TDM with me and so cannot look them up right now. Curt: what is the build date on your 190D, and is it a 2.2? Alex Chamberlain wrote: I find this hard to believe. Do you mean that you can't force the transmission into first even by moving the lever to position 2 at a stop? Why would D-B go to the trouble of making a special transmission without this feature? It wouldn't affect fuel economy ratings, since the transmission would behave the same if left in D. I assume this related to the shift gate being labelled D/3/2 instead of D/S/L. FWIW, both of the 722.x cars I have, an '86 300E and '87 300D, have the same shift gate, yet the 300D starts in first and the 300E in second (but can be forced to start in first by putting the lever in position 2 when stopped). The shift gate is not a reliable indicator of transmission behavior. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
David Bruckmann wrote: Whether it actually starts in 2nd or not may actually be a simple misunderstanding on the part of the PO. As far as I'm aware, all of the 722.3 transmissions used in later 123 and 126 models stay in second when stopped UNTIL you touch the accelerator, whereupon they instantly kick down to first. You should be able to feel this behaviour by taking your foot off the brake at standstill and see what the creep is like vs having the shift lever in L. And frankly, on most of them the modulator and transmission are worn enough that you can feel the bump when it kicks down to first. If it doesn't kick down, the cable probably just needs adjusting. Do they use the kickdown solenoid for first gear start, like the W116 300SD? If so, could be a bad kickdown solenoid. I doubt there's much to worry about. Just swap over the manifolds, turbo, etc from a 48 state car, maybe the IP too. At least I wouldn't want to keep the catalyst or those $80 air filters. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
Just to add some confusion...my 80 300SD 116 starts in first gear without using the kick down. I've had it for 14 years and that's how it has always worked. My 83 300D also works the same. The only time the kick down works is if I floor the pedal...then it kicks down like I would expect it to. I'd hate to lug the engine by missing 1st gear for take off. As to wear, the 80 300SD has over 410,000 miles on the original tranny. My Indie recently fixed a vacuum leak by replacing the plastic cap on the modulator valve and it shifts better and smoother than it has in years. Again, just some more confusion for the discussion. Best Wishes, Roger Hale Monroe, Ga. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
Wow. That's got to be a record for most miles on an original MB automatic transmission! Sent from my iPhone On Mar 6, 2011, at 9:01 AM, roger...@comcast.net wrote: Just to add some confusion...my 80 300SD 116 starts in first gear without using the kick down. I've had it for 14 years and that's how it has always worked. My 83 300D also works the same. The only time the kick down works is if I floor the pedal...then it kicks down like I would expect it to. I'd hate to lug the engine by missing 1st gear for take off. As to wear, the 80 300SD has over 410,000 miles on the original tranny. My Indie recently fixed a vacuum leak by replacing the plastic cap on the modulator valve and it shifts better and smoother than it has in years. Again, just some more confusion for the discussion. Best Wishes, Roger Hale Monroe, Ga. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
So which is more work 1)detaching the IP, manifold, and turbo before swapping out the motor; or 2) simply replacing the head with a used one from a 300TD that has the SLS pump? On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 4:26 AM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: David Bruckmann wrote: Whether it actually starts in 2nd or not may actually be a simple misunderstanding on the part of the PO. As far as I'm aware, all of the 722.3 transmissions used in later 123 and 126 models stay in second when stopped UNTIL you touch the accelerator, whereupon they instantly kick down to first. You should be able to feel this behaviour by taking your foot off the brake at standstill and see what the creep is like vs having the shift lever in L. And frankly, on most of them the modulator and transmission are worn enough that you can feel the bump when it kicks down to first. If it doesn't kick down, the cable probably just needs adjusting. Do they use the kickdown solenoid for first gear start, like the W116 300SD? If so, could be a bad kickdown solenoid. I doubt there's much to worry about. Just swap over the manifolds, turbo, etc from a 48 state car, maybe the IP too. At least I wouldn't want to keep the catalyst or those $80 air filters. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
roger...@comcast.net wrote: Just to add some confusion...my 80 300SD 116 starts in first gear without using the kick down. 78-79 power the kickdown through the overboost safety relay. It's supposed to sit in 2nd at a stnadstill with your foot on the brake, then drop into first as you take off. I always thought 1980 was the same, but I could be wrong. I'm not sure how you'd know, unless you have a technical manual, or monitor the voltage to the solenoid. I suppose you could pull the fuse that powers the kickdown, and if it still starts in first without that fuse (I believe it also runs the instruments and the tail lamps) then you're right and I'm wrong. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
#2 is harder for sure, timing chain, head gasket, valve cover, etc... Walt On Mar 6, 2011 9:59 AM, andrew strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: So which is more work 1)detaching the IP, manifold, and turbo before swapping out the motor; or 2) simply replacing the head with a used one from a 300TD that has the SLS pump? On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 4:26 AM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: David Bruckmann wrote: Whether it actually starts in 2nd or not may actually be a simple misunderstanding on the part of the PO. As far as I'm aware, all of the 722.3 transmissions used in later 123 and 126 models stay in second when stopped UNTIL you touch the accelerator, whereupon they instantly kick down to first. You should be able to feel this behaviour by taking your foot off the brake at standstill and see what the creep is like vs having the shift lever in L. And frankly, on most of them the modulator and transmission are worn enough that you can feel the bump when it kicks down to first. If it doesn't kick down, the cable probably just needs adjusting. Do they use the kickdown solenoid for first gear start, like the W116 300SD? If so, could be a bad kickdown solenoid. I doubt there's much to worry about. Just swap over the manifolds, turbo, etc from a 48 state car, maybe the IP too. At least I wouldn't want to keep the catalyst or those $80 air filters. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
Walt Zarnoch wrote: #2 is harder for sure, timing chain, head gasket, valve cover, etc... But, on the other hand, there's shift linkage, driveshaft, etc for a engine/tranny swap. Manifolds gotta go either way, if one of the engines has the CA setup and you want to get rid of it. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
For my money, changing the head is easier/cheaper than changing the engine or engine/trans combo. This is most likely borne out is flat rate manuals for inline 4,5,6 cyl engines. It also needs no engine hoist. For the air cooled horizontally opposed VWs, and some other things, the engine removal is easier. YMMV So which is more work 1)detaching the IP, manifold, and turbo before swapping out the motor; or 2) simply replacing the head with a used one from a 300TD that has the SLS pump? On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 4:26 AM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: David Bruckmann wrote: Whether it actually starts in 2nd or not may actually be a simple misunderstanding on the part of the PO. As far as I'm aware, all of the 722.3 transmissions used in later 123 and 126 models stay in second when stopped UNTIL you touch the accelerator, whereupon they instantly kick down to first. You should be able to feel this behaviour by taking your foot off the brake at standstill and see what the creep is like vs having the shift lever in L. And frankly, on most of them the modulator and transmission are worn enough that you can feel the bump when it kicks down to first. If it doesn't kick down, the cable probably just needs adjusting. Do they use the kickdown solenoid for first gear start, like the W116 300SD? If so, could be a bad kickdown solenoid. I doubt there's much to worry about. Just swap over the manifolds, turbo, etc from a 48 state car, maybe the IP too. At least I wouldn't want to keep the catalyst or those $80 air filters. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
Dieselhead wrote: For my money, changing the head is easier/cheaper than changing the engine or engine/trans combo. This is most likely borne out is flat rate manuals for inline 4,5,6 cyl engines. It also needs no engine hoist. I'd use the hoist anyway. The head isn't light, especially if you leave the manifolds on. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
My '84 190D doesn't kick down unless I cram down on the go pedal, even then sometimes theres a long delay before it kicks down. In the spring I need to spend some quality time adjusting things I think... -Curt Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 21:38:11 -0800 From: David Bruckmann bruckma...@transcontinental.ca To: mercedes@okiebenz.com mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD Message-ID: 42bf987e-d814-4457-b474-508e9b38d...@transcontinental.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Whether it actually starts in 2nd or not may actually be a simple misunderstanding on the part of the PO. As far as I'm aware, all of the 722.3 transmissions used in later 123 and 126 models stay in second when stopped UNTIL you touch the accelerator, whereupon they instantly kick down to first. You should be able to feel this behaviour by taking your foot off the brake at standstill and see what the creep is like vs having the shift lever in L. And frankly, on most of them the modulator and transmission are worn enough that you can feel the bump when it kicks down to first. If it doesn't kick down, the cable probably just needs adjusting. It wouldn't surprise me that the PO wouldn't be aware of the above: I've met plenty of Mercedes mechanics who didn't know it either. Personally I love the earlier transmissions that start in second and do NOT kick down unless forced, because every time it doesn't shift is one less bit of wear on that band/clutch pack. As you know, the 85 has a higher stall speed on the torque convertor, so it should be even more capable of starting in second without seeming sluggish. And you could always kick down if you needed the extra kick... But as I said, I suspect this is probably just the PO not understanding that the design is for it to be in second to prevent creep, but then to kick down immediately when you apply the accelerator... The TDM will clarify what the normal build was for that year, but I don't have it with me to check. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
Andrew, What is wrong with the engine and transmission in the car? I don't see any need to change anything unless the engine or transmission has some very serious failure. In fact, such a swap would decrease the value of the car. I say leave it, maintain it and enjoy. Jaime On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 11:23 PM, andrew strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.comwrote: I have been looking for a 1985 300TD and checked one out today. However, it's the CA version 300TD with a catalytic converter and different air cleaner. The owner says that the transmission is also different than the normal 1985s, and that the car starts in 2nd gear. I was wondering whether I could swap out this engine with the 1985 300D engine in my wagon and mate it with that (normal) 1985 transmission without a lot of custom work. Good idea or not? Anderw 1983 30TD 1985 300TD with 300D engine and regular rear suspension ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
What about the while you're at it costs? Like, if you're going to have the head off anyway you might as well go through it and check everything and replace guides and whatnot. Then you might as well ream the ridge on the engine and maybe consider rings and hone... Depending on how long you intend to keep such a car you might end up spending several thousand on it but on the other hand you'd end up with a great engine. -Curt Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 09:52:11 -0600 From: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD Message-ID: a06240802c9995d168f8e@[192.168.1.51] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ; format=flowed For my money, changing the head is easier/cheaper than changing the engine or engine/trans combo. This is most likely borne out is flat rate manuals for inline 4,5,6 cyl engines. It also needs no engine hoist. For the air cooled horizontally opposed VWs, and some other things, the engine removal is easier. YMMV ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
Jaime Kopchinski wrote: Andrew, What is wrong with the engine and transmission in the car? I don't see any need to change anything unless the engine or transmission has some very serious failure. In fact, such a swap would decrease the value of the car. I say leave it, maintain it and enjoy. The very serious failure is somebody putting a 300D engine in a 300TD and killing the SLS. This has devalued the car to the point where Andrew has decided that he must put it right, and he's been searching for a proper 1985 TD engine/tranny ever since. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
Ah... I get it... so the CA 300TD would supply the engine for his current 300TD... its all clear now. Carry on! Jaime On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: Jaime Kopchinski wrote: Andrew, What is wrong with the engine and transmission in the car? I don't see any need to change anything unless the engine or transmission has some very serious failure. In fact, such a swap would decrease the value of the car. I say leave it, maintain it and enjoy. The very serious failure is somebody putting a 300D engine in a 300TD and killing the SLS. This has devalued the car to the point where Andrew has decided that he must put it right, and he's been searching for a proper 1985 TD engine/tranny ever since. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
Andrew, i think the present owner is confused. as i understand it (at least with our '85 300D), the injection pump and trans/torque converter are unique to the '85 vs earlier 300Ds, as may be the rear differential ratio. (i'm not sure if the rear dif is the same in the TD or not.) the '85 Calif version also has the Particulate Trap, so it also has a different set of manifolds and a different air filter setup than the Federal (49 state) '85s. i've never heard that there was any difference in what gear they start out in from anything else like them, but am admittedly not as familiar with all the rest. cheers! e On 05/Mar/11 20:23, andrew strasfogel wrote: I have been looking for a 1985 300TD and checked one out today. However, it's the CA version 300TD with a catalytic converter and different air cleaner. The owner says that the transmission is also different than the normal 1985s, and that the car starts in 2nd gear. I was wondering whether I could swap out this engine with the 1985 300D engine in my wagon and mate it with that (normal) 1985 transmission without a lot of custom work. Good idea or not? Anderw 1983 30TD 1985 300TD with 300D engine and regular rear suspension ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
Ernest, your assessment is spot-on. The improvements solely for the 1985 model year 300TD that you enumerated necessitate my searching for only that year for an engine swap out. On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 2:55 PM, ernest breakfield erne...@backyardengineering.org wrote: Andrew, i think the present owner is confused. as i understand it (at least with our '85 300D), the injection pump and trans/torque converter are unique to the '85 vs earlier 300Ds, as may be the rear differential ratio. (i'm not sure if the rear dif is the same in the TD or not.) the '85 Calif version also has the Particulate Trap, so it also has a different set of manifolds and a different air filter setup than the Federal (49 state) '85s. i've never heard that there was any difference in what gear they start out in from anything else like them, but am admittedly not as familiar with all the rest. cheers! e On 05/Mar/11 20:23, andrew strasfogel wrote: I have been looking for a 1985 300TD and checked one out today. However, it's the CA version 300TD with a catalytic converter and different air cleaner. The owner says that the transmission is also different than the normal 1985s, and that the car starts in 2nd gear. I was wondering whether I could swap out this engine with the 1985 300D engine in my wagon and mate it with that (normal) 1985 transmission without a lot of custom work. Good idea or not? Anderw 1983 30TD 1985 300TD with 300D engine and regular rear suspension ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
Well said, Mitch, although Jaime makes a good case to leave well enough alone On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: Jaime Kopchinski wrote: Andrew, What is wrong with the engine and transmission in the car? I don't see any need to change anything unless the engine or transmission has some very serious failure. In fact, such a swap would decrease the value of the car. I say leave it, maintain it and enjoy. The very serious failure is somebody putting a 300D engine in a 300TD and killing the SLS. This has devalued the car to the point where Andrew has decided that he must put it right, and he's been searching for a proper 1985 TD engine/tranny ever since. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
Indeed, the pre-1980 (722.1) diesel transmissions started in second unless you mash the pedal to force a kickdown. That would have applied to the early 240D and non-turbo 300D up to and including 1979. The 126 diesels did the cable kickdown from the beginning of the series (1981). Not sure about the post-1980 240D, but I'm pretty certain that all the 1980 and later 617s did it, including the 1980 non-turbo 300D and presumably the 1980 W116 diesel. On 2011-03-06 Jim Cathey wrote: The Albatross (240D) started exclusively in second, unless you either floored it or moved the shifter to L. If you drove around in S (as most in-town driving is best done at) it was essentially a 2-speed tranny. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
Finally dredged up my TDM. Boiled down version: Non-turbos 123.123 (240D), 123.130 (300D), 123.190 (300TD) up to 1979: start in second, no kickdown unless full throttle applied. 1980 to September 1984: 123.12x; 123.13x and 123.19x (turbo and non-turbo): idle in second, kickdown to first with the slightest application of the accelerator. October 1984 (= 1985 model year) to end of series 123: idle in first and start in first without any application of accelerator pedal. They will also shift down into first when approaching a standstill (at about 13km/h). 1985 California version is basically identical to Federal except that the 1-2 shift happens at a slightly (2-5km/h) lower speed, and the stall speed on the torque converter is higher (2400-2700 vs 2100-2300 Federal). Other shift behaviour is same as Federal. Curt Raymond wrote: My '84 190D doesn't kick down unless I cram down on the go pedal, even then sometimes theres a long delay before it kicks down. To Curt's point: oddly, the 1984/85 190E 2.3 (201.024) and 190D 2.2 (201.122), as well as a couple of Euro 123, 124 and 126 gasser models, start in second no matter the position of the shift lever. The only way to get into first is indeed to use the pedal to kick down. I assume this related to the shift gate being labelled D/3/2 instead of D/S/L. So Curt, no adjustments needed on your 190D! D. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
Should be an easy swap, the trans will bolt right up with no issues. There might be subtle gotcha! Things I don't know about though, so wait for others to chime in. Walt On Mar 5, 2011 11:23 PM, andrew strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: I have been looking for a 1985 300TD and checked one out today. However, it's the CA version 300TD with a catalytic converter and different air cleaner. The owner says that the transmission is also different than the normal 1985s, and that the car starts in 2nd gear. I was wondering whether I could swap out this engine with the 1985 300D engine in my wagon and mate it with that (normal) 1985 transmission without a lot of custom work. Good idea or not? Anderw 1983 30TD 1985 300TD with 300D engine and regular rear suspension ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
Whether it actually starts in 2nd or not may actually be a simple misunderstanding on the part of the PO. As far as I'm aware, all of the 722.3 transmissions used in later 123 and 126 models stay in second when stopped UNTIL you touch the accelerator, whereupon they instantly kick down to first. You should be able to feel this behaviour by taking your foot off the brake at standstill and see what the creep is like vs having the shift lever in L. And frankly, on most of them the modulator and transmission are worn enough that you can feel the bump when it kicks down to first. If it doesn't kick down, the cable probably just needs adjusting. It wouldn't surprise me that the PO wouldn't be aware of the above: I've met plenty of Mercedes mechanics who didn't know it either. Personally I love the earlier transmissions that start in second and do NOT kick down unless forced, because every time it doesn't shift is one less bit of wear on that band/clutch pack. As you know, the 85 has a higher stall speed on the torque convertor, so it should be even more capable of starting in second without seeming sluggish. And you could always kick down if you needed the extra kick... But as I said, I suspect this is probably just the PO not understanding that the design is for it to be in second to prevent creep, but then to kick down immediately when you apply the accelerator... The TDM will clarify what the normal build was for that year, but I don't have it with me to check. Andrew Strasfogel wrote: I have been looking for a 1985 300TD and checked one out today. However, it's the CA version 300TD with a catalytic converter and different air cleaner. The owner says that the transmission is also different than the normal 1985s, and that the car starts in 2nd gear. I was wondering whether I could swap out this engine with the 1985 300D engine in my wagon and mate it with that (normal) 1985 transmission without a lot of custom work. Good idea or not? Anderw 1983 30TD 1985 300TD with 300D engine and regular rear suspension ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
