Re: [MBZ] OT Interesting perspective on EVs v V12s THIS is Why I Replaced My EV With a V12! How Green Are Electric Cars?

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> Probably the goal of an efficient, reliable, affordable turbine engine is a 
> question of "pick any two"

You left off small!

No, it would not be cheap.  At first.  But they'd be making
hundreds of thousands of them, in fairly short order.

What I'm talking about is a 20HP-ish unit, very small.  1/10 the
size of the smallest aircraft APU's.  Enough to drive a car down
the road at freeway speeds, with a little left over for charging.
But not so big that the battery couldn't absorb the entire
output if there was no drivetrain load at the moment.  Like
I said, single operating point.  Full output until the battery reaches
the point where it's getting fussy about how hard it's being charged,
then it turns off.

Ideally, like the Tesla electric drivetrain, it'd be a common part
shared among all car manufacturers.  Would also be handy
for off-grid folks, etc.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT Interesting perspective on EVs v V12s THIS is Why I Replaced My EV With a V12! How Green Are Electric Cars?

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

Probably the goal of an efficient, reliable, affordable turbine engine is a 
question of "pick any two"



On Wed, Feb 23, 2022, at 11:28 AM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes wrote:
>> A turbine would be interesting but if I recall they are not particularly 
>> fuel efficient, 
>
> IIRC, all combustion engines are about equally efficient, at optimum loading.
> (Whatever that is for the technology.)  Turbines have poor throttle response,
> and poor efficiency at lower throttle.  Wouldn't matter here.
>
> So, an optimally-sized turbine running at one load point, that of charging,
> should fit the need well.  Input and output tuned acoustically, for minimal
> noise, at the single load point.  High RPM means high energy density,
> therefore small.  Turbine can run on shitty fuel, no need for a Volt-like
> insistence on running the engine periodically just to keep the fuel from
> going stale.
>
>> and the gearbox would be needed to get it down to generator speeds.
>
> No gearbox.  Design a permanent-magnet generator that can run directly
> at turbine speed.  No brushes, no spinning wire to fly apart.
>
> Like I said, there would be some up-front engineering costs, significant
> ones, but the _result_ would be magnificent.
>
> -- Jim
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT Interesting perspective on EVs v V12s THIS is Why I Replaced My EV With a V12! How Green Are Electric Cars?

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> A turbine would be interesting but if I recall they are not particularly fuel 
> efficient, 

IIRC, all combustion engines are about equally efficient, at optimum loading.
(Whatever that is for the technology.)  Turbines have poor throttle response,
and poor efficiency at lower throttle.  Wouldn't matter here.

So, an optimally-sized turbine running at one load point, that of charging,
should fit the need well.  Input and output tuned acoustically, for minimal
noise, at the single load point.  High RPM means high energy density,
therefore small.  Turbine can run on shitty fuel, no need for a Volt-like
insistence on running the engine periodically just to keep the fuel from
going stale.

> and the gearbox would be needed to get it down to generator speeds.

No gearbox.  Design a permanent-magnet generator that can run directly
at turbine speed.  No brushes, no spinning wire to fly apart.

Like I said, there would be some up-front engineering costs, significant
ones, but the _result_ would be magnificent.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT Interesting perspective on EVs v V12s THIS is Why I Replaced My EV With a V12! How Green Are Electric Cars?

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

Design and build one on a 123 platform.  Buy a Tesla battery pack (or 
Pious or whatever motors and batteries those guys were scrounging from 
old forklifts) and the associated electronics, maybe use a little 1- or 
2- cyl diesel for the charger since those are cheap and plentiful, and 
go everywhere (free veggie oil!).  A turbine would be interesting but if 
I recall they are not particularly fuel efficient, and the gearbox would 
be needed to get it down to generator speeds.  Or maybe there are 
packaged APUs from airplanes that are already engineered to do that, pop 
one of those in?  Some calculations would be involved in engineering the 
thing but the idea is intriguing.


Or go talk to Elon and plant the seed in his brain?  I vaguely recall MB 
looking at diesel-electric hybrids some years ago and they were 
dismissed for reasons I don't recall, but it sorta made sense at the 
time. aside from all the fancy stuff in their cars.


--FT

On 2/23/22 9:17 AM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes wrote:

I would never buy a hybrid.

I would, maybe, but nobody's making the 'right' one.

IMHO, the correct hybrid is a decent plug-in EV, but
with an auxiliary turbine-based onboard battery charger
for indefinite range.

Should be no bigger than a large paint can, and designed
for optimum running at one speed.  Runs when it needs to,
to replenish the battery, and is off otherwise.  One moving
part, efficient and quiet due to the single operating point,
no cooling system, etc.  Low maintenance.

The up-front engineering costs would be substantial, but
the production costs, in volume, should be very manageable.

Of course, getting ANY new vehicle, regardless of tech, that isn't
a F*$%@ video game with wheels, is problematic.  I'd want the
240D of EV, but with the onboard charger I describe.

-- Jim


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--
--FT
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Re: [MBZ] OT Interesting perspective on EVs v V12s THIS is Why I Replaced My EV With a V12! How Green Are Electric Cars?

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> I would never buy a hybrid.

I would, maybe, but nobody's making the 'right' one.

IMHO, the correct hybrid is a decent plug-in EV, but
with an auxiliary turbine-based onboard battery charger
for indefinite range.

Should be no bigger than a large paint can, and designed
for optimum running at one speed.  Runs when it needs to,
to replenish the battery, and is off otherwise.  One moving
part, efficient and quiet due to the single operating point,
no cooling system, etc.  Low maintenance.

The up-front engineering costs would be substantial, but
the production costs, in volume, should be very manageable.

Of course, getting ANY new vehicle, regardless of tech, that isn't
a F*$%@ video game with wheels, is problematic.  I'd want the
240D of EV, but with the onboard charger I describe.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT Interesting perspective on EVs v V12s THIS is Why I Replaced My EV With a V12! How Green Are Electric Cars?

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Exactly.

On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 10:49 PM Allan Streib via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> From a purely practical standpoint, a hybrid seems more useful to me.
> Electric for your daily commute, but has the ability to do a long road trip
> using the combustion engine.
>
> Technically, there are two drive systems and more complexity, so
> probability of a failure is higher.
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 22, 2022, at 8:52 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> > I would never buy a hybrid.
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 22, 2022, 6:37 PM Rick Knoble 
> wrote:
> >
> >> > What kind of EVs are made in Europe?
> >>
> >> German
> >>
> >> https://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutporsche/e-performance/
> >>
> >> https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/electric-vehicles-3646
> >>
> >> https://www.mbusa.com/en/eq-electric-cars
> >>
> >> https://www.audiusa.com/us/web/en/models/electric-models.html
> >>
> >>
> >> There are plenty of plug in hybrids also.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Rick
> >>
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
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> >
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>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT Interesting perspective on EVs v V12s THIS is Why I Replaced My EV With a V12! How Green Are Electric Cars?

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

>From a purely practical standpoint, a hybrid seems more useful to me. Electric 
>for your daily commute, but has the ability to do a long road trip using the 
>combustion engine.

Technically, there are two drive systems and more complexity, so probability of 
a failure is higher.




On Tue, Feb 22, 2022, at 8:52 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> I would never buy a hybrid.
>
> On Tue, Feb 22, 2022, 6:37 PM Rick Knoble  wrote:
>
>> > What kind of EVs are made in Europe?
>>
>> German
>>
>> https://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutporsche/e-performance/
>>
>> https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/electric-vehicles-3646
>>
>> https://www.mbusa.com/en/eq-electric-cars
>>
>> https://www.audiusa.com/us/web/en/models/electric-models.html
>>
>>
>> There are plenty of plug in hybrids also.
>>
>>
>>
>> Rick
>>
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Re: [MBZ] OT Interesting perspective on EVs v V12s THIS is Why I Replaced My EV With a V12! How Green Are Electric Cars?

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

I would never buy a hybrid.

On Tue, Feb 22, 2022, 6:37 PM Rick Knoble  wrote:

> > What kind of EVs are made in Europe?
>
> German
>
> https://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutporsche/e-performance/
>
> https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/electric-vehicles-3646
>
> https://www.mbusa.com/en/eq-electric-cars
>
> https://www.audiusa.com/us/web/en/models/electric-models.html
>
>
> There are plenty of plug in hybrids also.
>
>
>
> Rick
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT Interesting perspective on EVs v V12s THIS is Why I Replaced My EV With a V12! How Green Are Electric Cars?

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

> What kind of EVs are made in Europe?

German

https://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutporsche/e-performance/

https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/electric-vehicles-3646

https://www.mbusa.com/en/eq-electric-cars

https://www.audiusa.com/us/web/en/models/electric-models.html


There are plenty of plug in hybrids also.




Rick
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Re: [MBZ] OT Interesting perspective on EVs v V12s THIS is Why I Replaced My EV With a V12! How Green Are Electric Cars?

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

What kind of EVs are made in Europe?

On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 3:28 PM Rick Knoble via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Couldn't find the manifest yet. Here's a thread and an article to help
> occupy your day.
>
>
> https://www.vwvortex.com/threads/cargo-ship-full-of-porsches-and-vws-is-on-fire-and-adrift-in-the-atlantic.9496674/
>
>
> https://www.autoblog.com/amp/2022/02/17/felicity-ace-cargo-ship-fire-porsche-volkswagen-cars/
>
>
> Rick
>
> From: astrasfo...@gmail.com
> Sent: February 22, 2022 11:22 AM
> To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Cc: rickkno...@hotmail.com
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Interesting perspective on EVs v V12s THIS is Why I
> Replaced My EV With a V12! How Green Are Electric Cars?
>
> If you have seen the ship's manifest, please post it for us all to
> experience schadenfreude.
>
> On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 12:04 PM Rick Knoble via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > I'm happy with being on the list for a new Fisker ocean.
>
> I'm pretty sure there are some electric VWs and Porches on fire on a ship
> in the ocean. They may end up being at the bottom of the ocean.
> Close enough?
>
>
> Rick
> ___
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>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT Interesting perspective on EVs v V12s THIS is Why I Replaced My EV With a V12! How Green Are Electric Cars?

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

Couldn't find the manifest yet. Here's a thread and an article to help occupy 
your day.

https://www.vwvortex.com/threads/cargo-ship-full-of-porsches-and-vws-is-on-fire-and-adrift-in-the-atlantic.9496674/

https://www.autoblog.com/amp/2022/02/17/felicity-ace-cargo-ship-fire-porsche-volkswagen-cars/


Rick

From: astrasfo...@gmail.com
Sent: February 22, 2022 11:22 AM
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: rickkno...@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Interesting perspective on EVs v V12s THIS is Why I 
Replaced My EV With a V12! How Green Are Electric Cars?

If you have seen the ship's manifest, please post it for us all to experience 
schadenfreude.

On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 12:04 PM Rick Knoble via Mercedes 
mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
> I'm happy with being on the list for a new Fisker ocean.

I'm pretty sure there are some electric VWs and Porches on fire on a ship in 
the ocean. They may end up being at the bottom of the ocean.
Close enough?


Rick
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Re: [MBZ] OT Interesting perspective on EVs v V12s THIS is Why I Replaced My EV With a V12! How Green Are Electric Cars?

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

If you have seen the ship's manifest, please post it for us all to
experience *schadenfreude*.

On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 12:04 PM Rick Knoble via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> > I'm happy with being on the list for a new Fisker ocean.
>
> I'm pretty sure there are some electric VWs and Porches on fire on a ship
> in the ocean. They may end up being at the bottom of the ocean.
> Close enough?
>
>
> Rick
> ___
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Re: [MBZ] OT Interesting perspective on EVs v V12s THIS is Why I Replaced My EV With a V12! How Green Are Electric Cars?

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

> I'm happy with being on the list for a new Fisker ocean.

I'm pretty sure there are some electric VWs and Porches on fire on a ship in 
the ocean. They may end up being at the bottom of the ocean.
Close enough?


Rick
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Re: [MBZ] OT Interesting perspective on EVs v V12s THIS is Why I Replaced My EV With a V12! How Green Are Electric Cars?

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

I'm happy with being on the list for a new Fisker ocean. I will charge it
up using my solar panels.

On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 10:26 AM Floyd Thursby via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> This guy is a bit annoying but he is quite an enthusiast and pretty
> knowledgeable about cars.  He drives his cars in the real world, they
> are not just garage queens.  His vid about his views and experiences is
> pretty good.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBisO3qGSh8
>
> --
> --FT
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