Re: [MBZ] Rear end noise - '87 190DT
Thanks Marshall. I didn't think the subframe mount would cause that either. Tan --- Marshall Booth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tan Qu wrote: Another question is: how often do you all replace the differential fluid? I probably need to drain the differential to see what kind of condition the fluid is in to rule out a failing differential. Then new flex disks next to see if the problem goes away. I am not feeling any vibration from the driveline so I guess the center bearing components are OK? Also, I understand axles on MB's are live axles so could collaped subframe mounts really cause this problem? Collapsed subframe mounts have never cause anything like you described on my cars. The car becomes twitchy at high speeds. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi ___ For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Rear end noise - '87 190DT
Tan Qu wrote: Another question is: how often do you all replace the differential fluid? I probably need to drain the differential to see what kind of condition the fluid is in to rule out a failing differential. Then new flex disks next to see if the problem goes away. I am not feeling any vibration from the driveline so I guess the center bearing components are OK? Also, I understand axles on MB's are live axles so could collapsed subframe mounts really cause this problem? It might be prudent for the differential fluid be changed from time to time, but there is NO requirement that it (or the fluid in the self leveling system) be changed. It must be topped up each time it's checked (every 15kmi) and the cause of any fluid loss corrected. I recall draining and replacing the differential fluid in only one or two of the 22 Mercedes I've ever owned. I've never had a Mercedes differential fail (had a couple that whined pretty good, but they never failed even after more than 100kmi of whining). Differential failures are VERY rare. Used ones are relatively inexpensive. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi
Re: [MBZ] Rear end noise - '87 190DT
The car handles pretty tight. It is just binding noise that concerns me. I do have the new links - you were talking about the rear sway bar links not the rear camber struts, were you? Do the subframe mounts really need the special tool to RR? Tan --- Kevin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 02:02:54PM -0800, Tan Qu wrote: Was that a big job? How long did it take you to do it? If lubing the calipers pin do not help, I may have to look to go in that way. Unfortunately, I dropped that subframe enough that I could get it dropped in under a half hour, and bolting it up took about the same. The subframe mounts are much easier if you have the tool. I'd probably try to inspect the subframe mounts and links before I made an order - the links made a bigger difference in my car. Then again, in yours, you sounded like you were feeling the subframe shift. If you replace the links, you're going to need an alignment. The mounts shouldn't require one. The first time I did the subframe, it took me about three hours for all four mounts, and I was taking my time. Replacing all the links and moving the new mounts from the old subframe to the new subframe took most of the day, but was easy with the subframe out of the vehicle. K ___ For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Rear end noise - '87 190DT
Tan Qu wrote: Our '87 190Dt started to make some noise from the back of the car, more likely from where the rear end is. When the car accelerate from standstill (for exmaplen at a stop sign), the car feels being dragged, the engine RPM goes up but the actual car speed does not seem to go up and there is this churning sound from the back of the car. This happens mostly where the car makes right-hand turn from at the stop sign. I have replaced all brake pads and flushed the brake system thinking it was a dragging pad but it didn't seem to solve the problem. I am planning on to go back to lube the caliper pins to see if it would help. Have you checked the emergency brake shoes? Marshall -- Marshall Booth Ph.D. Ass't Prof. (ret.) Univ of Pittsburgh School of Medicine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [MBZ] Rear end noise - '87 190DT
Yes. When car was up and emergency brake OFF I was able to spin the wheels just two months ago when I changed all pads. Also the binding problem seems to never happen if it gently (I mean really slowly) accelerate from a stopped condition. It feels like something suddenly got stuck when there is too much torque. Letting the accelerator pad off and re-accelerating then everything is normal. Tan --- Marshall Booth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tan Qu wrote: Our '87 190Dt started to make some noise from the back of the car, more likely from where the rear end is. When the car accelerate from standstill (for exmaplen at a stop sign), the car feels being dragged, the engine RPM goes up but the actual car speed does not seem to go up and there is this churning sound from the back of the car. This happens mostly where the car makes right-hand turn from at the stop sign. I have replaced all brake pads and flushed the brake system thinking it was a dragging pad but it didn't seem to solve the problem. I am planning on to go back to lube the caliper pins to see if it would help. Have you checked the emergency brake shoes? Marshall -- Marshall Booth Ph.D. Ass't Prof. (ret.) Univ of Pittsburgh School of Medicine [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Rear end noise - '87 190DT
Tan Qu wrote: Yes. When car was up and emergency brake OFF I was able to spin the wheels just two months ago when I changed all pads. Also the binding problem seems to never happen if it gently (I mean really slowly) accelerate from a stopped condition. It feels like something suddenly got stuck when there is too much torque. Letting the accelerator pad off and re-accelerating then everything is normal. A bad CV or U joint or flex disc COULD cause something like what you describe. When speed/acceleration is an issue it is USUALLY one of the structures that permits the driveline to flex. That's conjecture on my part, but that principle has not failed me over the years. I've also heard that a bad driveshaft center bearing carrier can cause a problem too, but only when the car is going 40-50 mph. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi
Re: [MBZ] Rear end noise - '87 190DT
Another question is: how often do you all replace the differential fluid? I probably need to drain the differential to see what kind of condition the fluid is in to rule out a failing differential. Then new flex disks next to see if the problem goes away. I am not feeling any vibration from the driveline so I guess the center bearing components are OK? Also, I understand axles on MB's are live axles so could collaped subframe mounts really cause this problem? Tan --- Marshall Booth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tan Qu wrote: Yes. When car was up and emergency brake OFF I was able to spin the wheels just two months ago when I changed all pads. Also the binding problem seems to never happen if it gently (I mean really slowly) accelerate from a stopped condition. It feels like something suddenly got stuck when there is too much torque. Letting the accelerator pad off and re-accelerating then everything is normal. A bad CV or U joint or flex disc COULD cause something like what you describe. When speed/acceleration is an issue it is USUALLY one of the structures that permits the driveline to flex. That's conjecture on my part, but that principle has not failed me over the years. I've also heard that a bad driveshaft center bearing carrier can cause a problem too, but only when the car is going 40-50 mph. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi ___ For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Rear end noise - '87 190DT
Tan Qu wrote: Another question is: how often do you all replace the differential fluid? I probably need to drain the differential to see what kind of condition the fluid is in to rule out a failing differential. Then new flex disks next to see if the problem goes away. I am not feeling any vibration from the driveline so I guess the center bearing components are OK? Also, I understand axles on MB's are live axles so could collaped subframe mounts really cause this problem? Collapsed subframe mounts have never cause anything like you described on my cars. The car becomes twitchy at high speeds. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi
Re: [MBZ] Rear end noise - '87 190DT
Another question is: how often do you all replace the differential fluid? Every time I have to replace a half-shaft! -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] Rear end noise - '87 190DT
Marshall, The brake hoses (all 4 of them) and the rear calipers (ATE) are new. I never changed the differential fluid for whole time I owned this car (from 100k to now 250k). There was no leaks or anything last time I was under the car. I am hoping some new differential mounts may solve the problem but am having hard time to find the parts at Rusty's website. I need to give him a call. How long the differential mounts and flex plates tend to last on the W201's in your experience? Tan --- Marshall Booth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tan Qu wrote: Our '87 190Dt started to make some noise from the back of the car, more likely from where the rear end is. When the car accelerate from standstill (for exmaplen at a stop sign), the car feels being dragged, the engine RPM goes up but the actual car speed does not seem to go up and there is this churning sound from the back of the car. This happens mostly where the car makes right-hand turn from at the stop sign. I have replaced all brake pads and flushed the brake system thinking it was a dragging pad but it didn't seem to solve the problem. I am planning on to go back to lube the caliper pins to see if it would help. Could it be a sign that the differential or the axles are failing? It gives me a feeling the rear end wasn't engaged and the transmission spins without load when this happens. Or could it be failing companion coupling at the drive shaft or even the differential mount? Car has about 250k miles on it. Both the engine mounts and transmission mount were replaced not long ago. If the rear brake hoses have delaminated (not unusual after 15+ years) that MIGHT result in what you describe. If the differential mounts have failed that can allow the differential/axle assembly to twist and that can cause binding too. Not sure about the effects when some of the link bushings fail. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi ___ For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Rear end noise - '87 190DT
Tan Qu wrote: Marshall, The brake hoses (all 4 of them) and the rear calipers (ATE) are new. I never changed the differential fluid for whole time I owned this car (from 100k to now 250k). There was no leaks or anything last time I was under the car. I am hoping some new differential mounts may solve the problem but am having hard time to find the parts at Rusty's website. I need to give him a call. How long the differential mounts and flex plates tend to last on the W201's in your experience? Differential mounts have been replaced in two of the 5 201s I've owned. They probably last 15-18 years or about 200kmi. They are responsible for positioning the differential and rear axle. The subframe mounts have the primary job of isolating the differential from the chassis and changing from 201 to 202 subframe mounts quiets differential noise A LOT! What you are describing is NOT a common complaint and I don't have a sure-fire answer for it - I'm GUESSING. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi
Re: [MBZ] Rear end noise - '87 190DT
Does W201 use the same differential mounts as the W124 or other models? I can find the mounts for W124 at Rusty's website but not for W201. Also, is there a particular reason you used W202 subframe mount in lieu of the original W201 mounts just part availability issue? Tan --- Marshall Booth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tan Qu wrote: Marshall, The brake hoses (all 4 of them) and the rear calipers (ATE) are new. I never changed the differential fluid for whole time I owned this car (from 100k to now 250k). There was no leaks or anything last time I was under the car. I am hoping some new differential mounts may solve the problem but am having hard time to find the parts at Rusty's website. I need to give him a call. How long the differential mounts and flex plates tend to last on the W201's in your experience? Differential mounts have been replaced in two of the 5 201s I've owned. They probably last 15-18 years or about 200kmi. They are responsible for positioning the differential and rear axle. The subframe mounts have the primary job of isolating the differential from the chassis and changing from 201 to 202 subframe mounts quiets differential noise A LOT! What you are describing is NOT a common complaint and I don't have a sure-fire answer for it - I'm GUESSING. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi ___ For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Rear end noise - '87 190DT
Tan Qu wrote: Does W201 use the same differential mounts as the W124 or other models? I can find the mounts for W124 at Rusty's website but not for W201. Also, is there a particular reason you used W202 subframe mount in lieu of the original W201 mounts just part availability issue? The 202 subframe mount has been used to suppress differential noise in 201 series cars almost as soon as they became available. I believe they now supersede the 201 subframe mounts. I have NO idea whether the 124 and 201 differential mounts are the same. Many 124 and 201 parts are shared, but I don't think the differential mounts are. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi
Re: [MBZ] Rear end noise - '87 190DT
On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 03:30:11PM -0500, Marshall Booth wrote: The 202 subframe mount has been used to suppress differential noise in 201 series cars almost as soon as they became available. I believe they now supersede the 201 subframe mounts. They sort of do. One set was a 202 part number, the other was a 124 number IIRC. I have NO idea whether the 124 and 201 differential mounts are the same. Many 124 and 201 parts are shared, but I don't think the differential mounts are. They are not. A 201 has four bolts that go through the subframe into the differential case. The 124/126 have actual mounts that aren't metal on metal. K
Re: [MBZ] Rear end noise - '87 190DT
That's what Rusty said when I just talked to him. There is no differential mount for W201 at least the 190Dt. Four sets of bolts and washer hold the differential in place. Could the washer be something like this - http://catalog.eautopartscatalog.com/buymb/quote.jsp?clientid=buymbpartscookieid=1HE0TZ36I1OO0ZYV8Gbaseurl=http://www.buymbparts.com/partner=buymbyear=1991product=J7070-24772application=000271741 Well, would this new finding suggesting the subframe mounts have collapsed and caused the change of the geometry of differential/drive shaft/axles? Tan --- Kevin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 03:30:11PM -0500, Marshall Booth wrote: The 202 subframe mount has been used to suppress differential noise in 201 series cars almost as soon as they became available. I believe they now supersede the 201 subframe mounts. They sort of do. One set was a 202 part number, the other was a 124 number IIRC. I have NO idea whether the 124 and 201 differential mounts are the same. Many 124 and 201 parts are shared, but I don't think the differential mounts are. They are not. A 201 has four bolts that go through the subframe into the differential case. The 124/126 have actual mounts that aren't metal on metal. K ___ For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Rear end noise - '87 190DT
On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 01:49:15PM -0800, Tan Qu wrote: Four sets of bolts and washer hold the differential in place. The washer is a boring old flat washer. Well, would this new finding suggesting the subframe mounts have collapsed and caused the change of the geometry of differential/drive shaft/axles? They somewhat did on my 85 190D, but what I found was shortly after I did the subframe mounts, I had the subframe down and was replacing it (due to rust, stupid 201s rust up like nobody's business) as well as the four links on each side. I still have one link on each side to do (the LCA), but the ride height and handling was vastly improved by doing that. K
Re: [MBZ] Rear end noise - '87 190DT
No, it is a longer one. It reaches both upper lower bolts. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tan Qu Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 4:49 PM To: Mercedes mailing list Subject: Re: [MBZ] Rear end noise - '87 190DT That's what Rusty said when I just talked to him. There is no differential mount for W201 at least the 190Dt. Four sets of bolts and washer hold the differential in place. Could the washer be something like this - http://catalog.eautopartscatalog.com/buymb/quote.jsp?clientid=buymbparts cookieid=1HE0TZ36I1OO0ZYV8Gbaseurl=http://www.buymbparts.com/partner= buymbyear=1991product=J7070-24772application=000271741 Well, would this new finding suggesting the subframe mounts have collapsed and caused the change of the geometry of differential/drive shaft/axles? Tan --- Kevin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 03:30:11PM -0500, Marshall Booth wrote: The 202 subframe mount has been used to suppress differential noise in 201 series cars almost as soon as they became available. I believe they now supersede the 201 subframe mounts. They sort of do. One set was a 202 part number, the other was a 124 number IIRC. I have NO idea whether the 124 and 201 differential mounts are the same. Many 124 and 201 parts are shared, but I don't think the differential mounts are. They are not. A 201 has four bolts that go through the subframe into the differential case. The 124/126 have actual mounts that aren't metal on metal. K ___ For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net ___ For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Rear end noise - '87 190DT
Was that a big job? How long did it take you to do it? If lubing the calipers pin do not help, I may have to look to go in that way. Tan --- Kevin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 01:49:15PM -0800, Tan Qu wrote: Four sets of bolts and washer hold the differential in place. The washer is a boring old flat washer. Well, would this new finding suggesting the subframe mounts have collapsed and caused the change of the geometry of differential/drive shaft/axles? They somewhat did on my 85 190D, but what I found was shortly after I did the subframe mounts, I had the subframe down and was replacing it (due to rust, stupid 201s rust up like nobody's business) as well as the four links on each side. I still have one link on each side to do (the LCA), but the ride height and handling was vastly improved by doing that. K ___ For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Rear end noise - '87 190DT
On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 02:02:54PM -0800, Tan Qu wrote: Was that a big job? How long did it take you to do it? If lubing the calipers pin do not help, I may have to look to go in that way. Unfortunately, I dropped that subframe enough that I could get it dropped in under a half hour, and bolting it up took about the same. The subframe mounts are much easier if you have the tool. I'd probably try to inspect the subframe mounts and links before I made an order - the links made a bigger difference in my car. Then again, in yours, you sounded like you were feeling the subframe shift. If you replace the links, you're going to need an alignment. The mounts shouldn't require one. The first time I did the subframe, it took me about three hours for all four mounts, and I was taking my time. Replacing all the links and moving the new mounts from the old subframe to the new subframe took most of the day, but was easy with the subframe out of the vehicle. K
Re: [MBZ] Rear end noise - '87 190DT
Tan Qu wrote: Our '87 190Dt started to make some noise from the back of the car, more likely from where the rear end is. When the car accelerate from standstill (for exmaplen at a stop sign), the car feels being dragged, the engine RPM goes up but the actual car speed does not seem to go up and there is this churning sound from the back of the car. This happens mostly where the car makes right-hand turn from at the stop sign. I have replaced all brake pads and flushed the brake system thinking it was a dragging pad but it didn't seem to solve the problem. I am planning on to go back to lube the caliper pins to see if it would help. Could it be a sign that the differential or the axles are failing? It gives me a feeling the rear end wasn't engaged and the transmission spins without load when this happens. Or could it be failing companion coupling at the drive shaft or even the differential mount? Car has about 250k miles on it. Both the engine mounts and transmission mount were replaced not long ago. If the rear brake hoses have delaminated (not unusual after 15+ years) that MIGHT result in what you describe. If the differential mounts have failed that can allow the differential/axle assembly to twist and that can cause binding too. Not sure about the effects when some of the link bushings fail. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi
