Re: [MBZ] Turned up fuel on OM603, sans IC or WI
I don't have any camera that will capture video yet. Don't worry, when I get one, there will be lots of video added to my website, lol! :-) -dm -- Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:17:02 -0400 From: Andrew Cunningham [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MBZ] Turned up fuel on OM603, sans IC or WI Dave, Do you have a digital camera that can take short videos (30 seconds)? If so, there is a perfect co-pilot -just set the camera up so it can see the speedometer and EGT. And you can share the run with fellow listers too :) Andy P.S. If you don't have a camera that can do this, here is the perfect excuse!
Re: [MBZ] Turned up fuel on OM603, sans IC or WI
Andrew Cunningham wrote: I am designing a boost controller with an EGT Type-K feedback. Why don't you just spray H2O when the temp goes over 1200?
Re: [MBZ] Turned up fuel on OM603, sans IC or WI
Dave, Do you have a digital camera that can take short videos (30 seconds)? If so, there is a perfect co-pilot -just set the camera up so it can see the speedometer and EGT. And you can share the run with fellow listers too :) Andy P.S. If you don't have a camera that can do this, here is the perfect excuse! On 7/10/05, Dave M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrew, I don't have any data on the rate of increase, as it's simply too hard to capture. All I can do is note the start and end temps on a zero-to-whatever WOT run, either time or distance. If I had a second person who could watch the gauge and write down data during the run that might work, but I don't have the free time at the moment. At ~100mph it's up to approx 1300F with the fuel delivery increased 0.5 turns. About peak temps, you should read my post here: http://buymbparts.com/forum/showthread.php?t=395 What I'd add to that is I would be comfortable running up to 1300F but I would probably back off at 1350F, and I'd prefer under 1300F for extended periods. Even without WI or IC, I almost never see anything close to these numbers in normal driving. About the boost controller, I think that may be overengineering things a little. There's no advantage to extra boost with a cooler engine, etc. I make the same power with 12psi that I make with 17psi and so far I can't see ANY advantage to running higher boost pressure than is needed to make peak power. It would just increase backpressure pre-turbo and subsequently increase EGT's. Now if we're talking about replacing the stock turbo with something different, that's another story (and much more complicated.) What I *would* be interested in some type of thermocouple safety switch, that would kill the ALDA signal line if EGT's exceeded 1400F or so. That would be nice for a little peace of mind on a 'tweaked' motor. On a side note, it's my current belief/theory that Mercedes installed the overboost circuit NOT because the pump can deliver more fuel than needed for factory power specs (it can't), but because if the wastegate jams closed and boost goes to 18+psi, the EGT's could get beyond safe levels and cause damage. I'm not sure Marshall would agree, and I don't have any proof at the moment, but it's something to kick around in the ol' noggin. Note that later (1990+?) OM60x engines deleted this circuit but I think they simply had other computer controls doing the same thing, just in a different way. :-) Best regards, Dave M. Boise, ID -- Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 20:38:28 -0400 From: Andrew Cunningham [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MBZ] Turned up fuel on OM603, sans IC or WI Dave, I was looking for the rate of increase during the run not just the end points. Within a typical (current config no WI) 0-100mph run how many seconds does it take to get to 900, 1000, 1100, 1200 ack 1300? The other thing that I was wondering was how long (seconds/minutes?) would you be confortable running at 1200F? If you could run WOT for a minute, what would you consider your max temp? The reason why I am asking is I am designing a boost controller with an EGT Type-K feedback. This would allow more useable boost (maybe 16psi+) earlier when the engine is cooler and slowly reduce (down to maybe 10-11 as needed) the boost to prevent EGTs from going too high. You keep the pedal to the metal, as temps increase the boost drops which also reduces exhaust back pressure. I have a few complete designs that I am considering. I am at the beginning design stage of an injection pump controller that adjusts the pressure signal to the ALDA. The basic concept is to adjust the fuel delivery based on the intake temperature and pressure. I don't have all the pieces or figured out how it will all connect yet, but I am learning how to program a microcontroller to handle the adjustment. Charge density should be proportional to the absolute pressure / absolute temperature. Typical charge density is around 0.05 psia / K with no turbo and maybe up to 0.10 psia / K with an intercooler. NOTE: the EGR must be disabled for this to calculation to determine how much air you have to burn. At a given charge density, there should be an ALDA pressure that corresponds to a near perfect match for the fuel. This way, when you floor it you will have exactly the fuel you can use based on how much air you have to burn. The trick will be to use a 10 point calibration curve from no turbo all the way up to full boost. One thing that I haven't confirmed yet is: On a given 617 injection pump, the pump squirt/rev is independant on the actual rpm. i.e. if the throttle position and ALDA pressure is the same at 1000 rpm as 4000 rpm, will each rev of the engine will inject the same amount of fuel? Anyone know if that is the case? Thanks, Andy
Re: [MBZ] Turned up fuel on OM603, sans IC or WI
Interesting idea Andrew. A couple of thoughts here, one being that most WI kits are either single or dual stage, and are boost signalled--e.g. stage one nozzle goes off @ 4psi and stage two goes off @ 10psi (or whatever pressure you want) which helps to prevent EGTs from reaching those temps in the first place. And, from my (limited) observations once EGTs reach ~800F under load, it's only a matter of scant micro-seconds before they're meeting or exceeding the range you've identified here, so I'd definitely begin your sequence of activities at a lower EGT range--but you may have just thrown those temps out for illustrative purposes. The IC fan can be triggered by a much lower temp/tech charge air inlet/outlet temp switch--the ricer guys also use this switch to trigger an IC misting bar that squirts mists of water over the exterior of the core. Like Dave, I'm primarily interested in the controller to operate an ALDA boost line shutoff solenoid and over-temp warning light/buzzer. On 7/11/05, Andrew Cunningham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mitch, The chip that controls the boost controller that I was talking about can be used for any output you want. It is just a LED bar graph chip that lights up leds and can power a transistor to activate any electronic device. There are 10 lights from the high to low reference, each can trigger a different nozzle adding more water until it reaches the high reference voltage - that could be the one that cuts the boost signal to the IP. There is a Type K thermocouple chip AD595 or something close to that. It outputs 10mv/F so at 1300F it will be 13 volts. I would suggest using a separate battery as a safety precaution and charge it indirectly through the main electrical system. So if you set the reference voltages at 11.20v and 13.00v, you could have something like: 1120 F : Nothing happens 1140 F : Intercooler fan kicks in (relay) 1160 F : WI nozzle #1 fires (solenoid valve) 1180 F : WI nozzle #2 fires (solenoid valve) 1200 F : Warning Light goes off 1220 F : WI nozzle #3 fires (solenoid valve) 1240 F : WI nozzle #4 fires (solenoid valve) 1260 F : Warning Buzzer goes off 1280 F : WI nozzle #5 fires (solenoid valve) 1300 F : Fuel cutout by killing boost signal to IP Andy On 7/10/05, Mitch Haley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrew Cunningham wrote: I am designing a boost controller with an EGT Type-K feedback. Why don't you just spray H2O when the temp goes over 1200? ___ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] For new parts see www.buymbparts.com http://www.buymbparts.com For repairs see www.oldworldauto.com http://www.oldworldauto.com To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net ___ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] For new parts see www.buymbparts.com http://www.buymbparts.com For repairs see www.oldworldauto.com http://www.oldworldauto.com To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net -- Casey Biodiesel: '87 300TD intercooler (206k) '84 300D (202k) Gashuffer: '89 Vanagon Wolfsburg Edition (184k) Olympia, WA
Re: [MBZ] Turned up fuel on OM603, sans IC or WI
Andrew, I don't have any data on the rate of increase, as it's simply too hard to capture. All I can do is note the start and end temps on a zero-to-whatever WOT run, either time or distance. If I had a second person who could watch the gauge and write down data during the run that might work, but I don't have the free time at the moment. At ~100mph it's up to approx 1300F with the fuel delivery increased 0.5 turns. About peak temps, you should read my post here: http://buymbparts.com/forum/showthread.php?t=395 What I'd add to that is I would be comfortable running up to 1300F but I would probably back off at 1350F, and I'd prefer under 1300F for extended periods. Even without WI or IC, I almost never see anything close to these numbers in normal driving. About the boost controller, I think that may be overengineering things a little. There's no advantage to extra boost with a cooler engine, etc. I make the same power with 12psi that I make with 17psi and so far I can't see ANY advantage to running higher boost pressure than is needed to make peak power. It would just increase backpressure pre-turbo and subsequently increase EGT's. Now if we're talking about replacing the stock turbo with something different, that's another story (and much more complicated.) What I *would* be interested in some type of thermocouple safety switch, that would kill the ALDA signal line if EGT's exceeded 1400F or so. That would be nice for a little peace of mind on a 'tweaked' motor. On a side note, it's my current belief/theory that Mercedes installed the overboost circuit NOT because the pump can deliver more fuel than needed for factory power specs (it can't), but because if the wastegate jams closed and boost goes to 18+psi, the EGT's could get beyond safe levels and cause damage. I'm not sure Marshall would agree, and I don't have any proof at the moment, but it's something to kick around in the ol' noggin. Note that later (1990+?) OM60x engines deleted this circuit but I think they simply had other computer controls doing the same thing, just in a different way. :-) Best regards, Dave M. Boise, ID -- Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 20:38:28 -0400 From: Andrew Cunningham [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MBZ] Turned up fuel on OM603, sans IC or WI Dave, I was looking for the rate of increase during the run not just the end points. Within a typical (current config no WI) 0-100mph run how many seconds does it take to get to 900, 1000, 1100, 1200 ack 1300? The other thing that I was wondering was how long (seconds/minutes?) would you be confortable running at 1200F? If you could run WOT for a minute, what would you consider your max temp? The reason why I am asking is I am designing a boost controller with an EGT Type-K feedback. This would allow more useable boost (maybe 16psi+) earlier when the engine is cooler and slowly reduce (down to maybe 10-11 as needed) the boost to prevent EGTs from going too high. You keep the pedal to the metal, as temps increase the boost drops which also reduces exhaust back pressure. I have a few complete designs that I am considering. I am at the beginning design stage of an injection pump controller that adjusts the pressure signal to the ALDA. The basic concept is to adjust the fuel delivery based on the intake temperature and pressure. I don't have all the pieces or figured out how it will all connect yet, but I am learning how to program a microcontroller to handle the adjustment. Charge density should be proportional to the absolute pressure / absolute temperature. Typical charge density is around 0.05 psia / K with no turbo and maybe up to 0.10 psia / K with an intercooler. NOTE: the EGR must be disabled for this to calculation to determine how much air you have to burn. At a given charge density, there should be an ALDA pressure that corresponds to a near perfect match for the fuel. This way, when you floor it you will have exactly the fuel you can use based on how much air you have to burn. The trick will be to use a 10 point calibration curve from no turbo all the way up to full boost. One thing that I haven't confirmed yet is: On a given 617 injection pump, the pump squirt/rev is independant on the actual rpm. i.e. if the throttle position and ALDA pressure is the same at 1000 rpm as 4000 rpm, will each rev of the engine will inject the same amount of fuel? Anyone know if that is the case? Thanks, Andy
Re: [MBZ] Turned up fuel on OM603, sans IC or WI
Andrew, I think I had that info in the forum post (linked to in my original message). Anyway in stock form, at the end of the 1/4 mile the EGT's were usually 1000F. With it turned up, they now hit 1100F. I did some testing to 100mph and the temp gets to 1200-1300F by then. I now have the water injection kit in-hand but haven't had time to install it. :) +dm -- Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:56:09 -0400 From: Andrew Cunningham [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MBZ] Turned up fuel on OM603, sans IC or WI Dave, I was wondering how quickly the EGTs increase during your typical 1/4 mile runs. I think you said you can do it in around 17 seconds. I know this won't be exact, but would you be willing to estimate the EGTs during the run, ie how long until 900, 1000, 1100, 1200 ack 1300 :) I put something together that might help your EGT temperatures, but I'd like to see what the timeframes are first. Thanks, Andy
Re: [MBZ] Turned up fuel on OM603, sans IC or WI
Andrew Cunningham wrote:
Dave,
I was looking for the rate of increase during the run not just the end
points. Within a typical (current config no WI) 0-100mph run how many
seconds does it take to get to 900, 1000, 1100, 1200 ack 1300?
The other thing that I was wondering was how long (seconds/minutes?)
would you be confortable running at 1200F? If you could run WOT for a
minute, what would you consider your max temp?
The reason why I am asking is I am designing a boost controller with
an EGT Type-K feedback. This would allow more useable boost (maybe
16psi+) earlier when the engine is cooler and slowly reduce (down to
maybe 10-11 as needed) the boost to prevent EGTs from going too high.
You keep the pedal to the metal, as temps increase the boost drops
which also reduces exhaust back pressure. I have a few complete
designs that I am considering.
I am at the beginning design stage of an injection pump controller
that adjusts the pressure signal to the ALDA. The basic concept is to
adjust the fuel delivery based on the intake temperature and pressure.
I don't have all the pieces or figured out how it will all connect
yet, but I am learning how to program a microcontroller to handle the
adjustment.
Charge density should be proportional to the absolute pressure /
absolute temperature. Typical charge density is around 0.05 psia / K
with no turbo and maybe up to 0.10 psia / K with an intercooler.
NOTE: the EGR must be disabled for this to calculation to determine
how much air you have to burn.
At a given charge density, there should be an ALDA pressure that
corresponds to a near perfect match for the fuel. This way, when you
floor it you will have exactly the fuel you can use based on how much
air you have to burn. The trick will be to use a 10 point calibration
curve from no turbo all the way up to full boost.
One thing that I haven't confirmed yet is:
On a given 617 injection pump, the pump squirt/rev is independant on
the actual rpm. i.e. if the throttle position and ALDA pressure is
the same at 1000 rpm as 4000 rpm, will each rev of the engine will
inject the same amount of fuel?
Anyone know if that is the case?
I suggest it's time to study Bosch's Diesel Fuel Injection. The 1st
edition ('94) is ISBN 1-56091-542-0 and is published by SAE. Not sure if
they've updated it (to cover the latest systems), but there's plenty of
information there.
Marshall
--
Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions)
der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
'87 300TD 181Kmi,'87 190D 2.5 199Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 227Kmi, '85 190D 2.0
159Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 234kmi
Diesel Technical Advisor MBCA, member GWSection
http://www.dhc.net/~pmhack/mercedes/mbooth1.htm
Re: [MBZ] Turned up fuel on OM603, sans IC or WI
Better hurry - there's only one on Amazon, $151, and it might be used.
http://tinyurl.com/7aae3
I suggest it's time to study Bosch's Diesel Fuel Injection. The 1st
edition ('94) is ISBN 1-56091-542-0 and is published by SAE. Not sure if
they've updated it (to cover the latest systems), but there's plenty of
information there.
Marshall
--
--
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
'87 300SDL
'81 240D
'78 450SLC
