Re: [meteorite-list] NASA could sell...
To sell the Apollo rocks? Have you taken leave of your senses?!? Those rocks, which the heroes of my youth brought back, risking their lives, and in the greatest technical adventure of all times?? You're all watching too much TV! Too much science fiction! We can't go around in the solar system in that way you're taking a cab! Manned spaceflight is extremely difficult and extremely dangerous. Look what we can do. At the moment we have an assemblage of tin cans in such a low orbit, a kind of water ski in spaceflight, in a so low orbit, that the grandmas call the police, whenever the ISS cross over their heads! And more we cannot! Now we are all trembling, that the little box called Dawn will not fail and send us some data from the front garden of our tiny solar system. Lunar materials, think to the millions of man-hours spent in the deserts, to assemble the tiny pile of lunar meteorites, so small and light-weighted, that everyone of us can lift it without difficulties. (And think about that, whenever your nose starts to wrinkle, when such a specimen offered is lousy 100 bucks more expensive per gram than you expected.) And although I feel still quite healthy, I won't live to see a man or woman on Moon again (not to mention Mars). Really. Rather sell the Brooklyn Bridge. And which meteorites shall NASA sell? Those from ANSMET? That isn't possible because the Antarctic Treaty prevents that, and hey - we're all buyers and sellers of meteorites, so we definitely know, that the revenues would be out of absolutely all proportion to the expenses paid to collect these meteorites. And thus, it would be even probably elements of offence, a misappropriation. Huh, we're just selling a brachinite, the freshest available, where in 36 years of Antarctic searches by all countries together not more than 3 different were found, together half a pound. And we are selling that one in slices and not in bulk - and at a total, wherefore you can pay having an ANSMET-Team exactly one single day on the ice! These are the relations. It is absolutely necessary, that the ANSMET meteorites stay in the courtesy of governmental institutes and universities - their acquisition was expensive enough! (No offense, in my eyes these costs are fully justified). To sell them on the market would bring in peanuts compared to that, what the taxpayer had spent for them. And Richard, who says, that NASA wouldn't buy meteorites? Nasa consists of hundreds of departments - of course if you address to the janitor, he won't buy a meteorite. But those exploring the solar system do, of course. And the abnormal opinion of people, pretending to be scientists interested in meteorites, that a Moon or a chondrite is per se a crime, that you found at best in countries with an underdeveloped meteorite research like e.g. Australia or Oman, but certainly not in USA. ;-) Martin __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA could sell...
- Original Message - From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com snip And Richard, who says, that NASA wouldn't buy meteorites? Nasa consists of hundreds of departments - of course if you address to the janitor, he won't buy a meteorite. But those exploring the solar system do, of course. And the abnormal opinion of people, pretending to be scientists interested in meteorites, that a Moon or a chondrite is per se a crime, that you found at best in countries with an underdeveloped meteorite research like e.g. Australia or Oman, but certainly not in USA. ;-) Martin Hey Martin, I never suggested NASA researchers would never purchase meteorites as we all know that some do. And yes, I know some wish they had more funds available so they could purchase more material to study. I can't speak to the scientist's attitude that no one should own meteorites and his or her statement about ethics. Everyone has their own preconceived notions, opinions and prejudices. Professional scientists are people too, with the same failings as everyone else. Enough unintentional hitting of the beehive with a stick for now. Back to semi-lurking. -- Richard Kowalski Full Moon Photography IMCA #1081 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA could sell...
Hi Richard, only to clarify - I wanted to express, that the strange notion that individuals feel entitled, qua their occupation with such things, that objects from outer space (in the truest meaning of the word, truly xenoliths) falling on a natural way down to Earth and which are searched for and found by other people than them - that these objects shall exclusively and only be at their personal disposal (if one wants to avoid the term possession) and that even for free, that this weird notion is not widespread among scientists - and btw. never was widespread in history - but is a notion of a small minority of the specialized scientists (a minority whose members are often not trained nor educated in that particular sub-field of their occupation, how meteorites can be recovered at all). Of course it is a natural reflex to ignore such odd notions, but unfortunately some of those, who have this notion can be sometimes very noisy. So noisy that they went nowadays so far, that they started to cause severe damage and harm not only to the private collectors (as their intention is, which can be welcomed or not), but also to the global scientific community, to meteoritics in general as well to their employers (i.e. the state). And else in that thread, that political ranting and raging against whatever machine - I don't share. ANSMET, PRIC, NIPR ect. are doing an excellent, an important job, As well as NASA does, see all the planetary missions! The orbiters and rovers on Mars, the Dawn mission, and almost forgotten Cassini, the Titan probe, Genesis and and and... So endlessly more and fantastic than in the Viking-Pioneer-Voyager-age. But public, and partially this list too, doesn't even notice that anymore, in the flood of the media these missions perish, so spoiled are we, that we even don't take notice anymore, of the most sensational and overwhelming pictures and data (coming almost daily in) from new and strange worlds, mankind ever had. Amen. Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Richard Kowalski [mailto:damoc...@yahoo.com] Gesendet: Montag, 27. Juni 2011 10:27 An: Martin Altmann; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA could sell... - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com snip And Richard, who says, that NASA wouldn't buy meteorites? Nasa consists of hundreds of departments - of course if you address to the janitor, he won't buy a meteorite. But those exploring the solar system do, of course. And the abnormal opinion of people, pretending to be scientists interested in meteorites, that a Moon or a chondrite is per se a crime, that you found at best in countries with an underdeveloped meteorite research like e.g. Australia or Oman, but certainly not in USA. ;-) Martin Hey Martin, I never suggested NASA researchers would never purchase meteorites as we all know that some do. And yes, I know some wish they had more funds available so they could purchase more material to study. I can't speak to the scientist's attitude that no one should own meteorites and his or her statement about ethics. Everyone has their own preconceived notions, opinions and prejudices. Professional scientists are people too, with the same failings as everyone else. Enough unintentional hitting of the beehive with a stick for now. Back to semi-lurking. -- Richard Kowalski Full Moon Photography IMCA #1081 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA SDO video
Hi Michael, It may have been the one I posted last week? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rev8vHjBq88 Cheers, Jeff Kuyken Meteorites Australia www.meteorites.com.au Vice President - I.M.C.A. Inc. www.imca.cc - Original Message - From: Michael Bross elemen...@peconic.net To: E.P. Grondine epgrond...@yahoo.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA SDO video Hi E.P. and All Could you please send the link you are referring to, again ? Not SL9 but the previous one. Either I missed it or deleted it. Thank you ! Michael B. From: E.P. Grondine Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 6:17 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] NASA SDO video Hi all - Thanks for the link - truly magnificent. Now where to hell is the NASA video of the fragments of SL 9 hitting Jupiter? Its only been 14 years now. How incompetenet does Ed Weiler have to be before he gets fired? E.P. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Moon Dust
G'day John, Very interesting article... thanks. It reminds me of a story I saw a while back. One of the things that is under-development for the return to the moon is a spray that can go onto just about anything. It's one of those remarkable developments where nature was used as the inspiration. They investigated the way water rolls off Lotus leaves and applied that idea to the spray. So much like water on a lotus leaf, lunar dust will fall off material coated with the spray. Cool stuff. Cheers, Jeff - Original Message - From: John.L.Cabassi j...@cabassi.net To: 'Martin Altmann' altm...@meteorite-martin.de; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 6:13 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Moon Dust This dust seems like a problem http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15607792/ -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Martin Altmann Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2011 5:31 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Moon Dust Well, look what Slezak has here on his fingers! (photo courtesy: NASA). That's what the big gooseberry season story is about. http://images.jsc.nasa.gov/luceneweb/fullimage.jsp?photoId=S69-40054 The Slezaktape story is well documented, publically known for decades now. No idea, how one can speak then from smuggling or even black market. Agreements such as the one shown here have long been used Well, in this case it's the simple question how long they have been used. Florian, who acquired the scotch tape, told, that when Slezak put the strip of tape on the poster to remember in 1969/1970 no regulations concerning the Apollo materials existed, the first ones came into effect in August 1972. If it's so - then: Newspaper had its story, attorney his publicity on TV... and because Ex post facto, the widow should get her dust grains back. If it's not so, FBI has to throw Slezak and btw. Alan Bean, who used lunar dust from his mission patches in his paintings into jail. Anyway, these contaminated few single particles of dust, are compared to the Apollo rocks research has at hand of no scientific interest. Hence I think, that tax-money spent for that nuisance should have been better spent for the acquisition of more samples of lunar meteorites for NASA diversifying their lunar materials reservoir. Ah here are some of Bean's paintings. http://www.alanbean.com/available_originals.cfm Hmm, they are quite bit more expensive than the tape-snippet...therefore don't show them to the U.S. attorney's office in St.Louis! When the Moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's ammmooo. Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Jeff Grossman Gesendet: Sonntag, 26. Juni 2011 01:37 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Moon Dust [This email was written by me as a private citizen, and does not reflect any kind of official position by NASA] If you want to see the loan agreements that are used today, please read: http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/sampreq/LunarAllocHandbook.pdf Agreements such as the one shown here have long been used at NASA, and I'm pretty sure most official samples in the past have had paperwork such as this accompanying them. I don't know what kind of variability of terms there have been in these agreements, but I'm confident that, whatever they say, they are legally binding on the recipients who sign them. I don't understand why people would be surprised that material of any value removed from a federal facility without permission might be subject to scrutiny. This sounds like theft to me, and doesn't seem to require any special law pertaining to the specific material. So, I don't understand the comment about self-proclaimed laws. Even if there is no cover-up of the removal or subsequent sale, that does not necessarily make it legal. I think the legal issue might come down to whether or not the remover had permission, either expressed or implied. Jeff __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stones with High Troilite, Low Metal
Jason says: You may well be right, but since troilite is typically present in rather minor concentrations in most meteorites, I have the feeling that they are not depleted in it relative to most other types...but I could be wrong. So, troilite is always pyrrhotite, but pyrrhotite isn't always troilite. Hi Jason, It is clearer IMO to think of troilite simply as the stoichiometric Fe-S endpoint of pyrrhotite; Getting polyphyletic or not is best lefts to cladists! I'm not sure of the utility of the thought you have regarding depleted: It is much better to think of this as a dynamic evolution to form the Metal-sulfides. The RELATIVE amount of stable sulfides to sulfates and oxides begins to tell good clues on the environment of formation; just as a possible rich sulfurous cloud condensate is postulated on origin. Further, the RELATIVE amount amount of troilite to pyrrhotite being quite low and in many cases nearly trace, gives more clues since it is a troilite is saturated state and has physical implications. The fact that R chondrites are so rich in sulfur yet RELATIVELY poor in troilite is the reverse of what is expected (Except for Dr. Rubin's ALH85151 which would be exciting if he has a theory to explain it, otherwise just an outlier to keep in mind). So regardless of what is in the online literature, if you want to begin forming hypotheses on any of the interesting qualities and origins of R chondrites, the least interesting thing is to compare across other classes as you suggest without a theoretical framework of what's going on within this stinky meteorites. (Sure, if you just have the rock under the loop it might be of some utility to get oriented but that still isn't convincing to me). - The only source I found in my short quest for knowledge that bothered to note how much troilite is (typically) present in R-chondrites is the NAU website. Bothered to note? - things like this are important to recognize as likely an open research opportunities - not dirt behind the refrigerator! I'm betting that the 'omission' is because that's easier than trying to explain something we Olympians don't have a clue about (or it is someone's R chondrite Nobel prize theory secret still under development), at least in the literature quickly available to us. A good place to check on the simple compositional question of being relatively troilite poor would be the analysis of the type specimen, Rumuruti ... where I'm sure it was noted. If not there, my next convenient bet would be David Weir's fantastic meteoritestudies.com site. Kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com To: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Sent: Mon, Jun 27, 2011 4:01 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Stones with High Troilite, Low Metal Hello Laurence, Doug, All, From an NAU site about R-chondrites: sulfide rich: pyrrhotite and pentlandite very common, minor troilite; pentlandite commonly contains Cr up to 2 wt%, troilite may contain Ni up to 3 wt% http://www4.nau.edu/meteorite/Meteorite/Rumuruti.html Which raised the question -- what is troilite and what is pyrrhotite? Pyrrhotite is an unusual iron sulfide mineral with a variable iron content: Fe(1-x)S (x = 0 to 0.2). The FeS endmember is known as troilite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhotite So, troilite is always pyrrhotite, but pyrrhotite isn't always troilite. I don't know whether the sulfides in R-chondrites is primarily FeS where S=1 or S1, but the distinction is rarely made except in academic circles. In fact, none of the following top hits goes into any depth regarding pyrrhotite vs troilite concentrations in R-chondrites. These were the first three I found: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1994Metic..29..275S http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1994Metic..29..255R http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0009281911000237 - The only source I found in my short quest for knowledge that bothered to note how much troilite is (typically) present in R-chondrites is the NAU website. You may well be right, but since troilite is typically present in rather minor concentrations in most meteorites, I have the feeling that they are not depleted in it relative to most other types...but I could be wrong. For the purposes of Pete's visual observations, I think we can assume that he meant sulfides in general, since I doubt he has the analytical capability to tell between FeS (S=1) or FeS (S = 1 to 0.8). When I saw Pete's note, I immediately thought of R-chondrites, too...though I wonder if his stone might not be an LL-chondrite. We have a few R's, and when poked with a neodymium magnet, the pull is *barely* discernible, to the point that I might call them entirely non-magnetic if I weren't being careful. Regards, Jason On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 6:15 PM, MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com wrote: Hi Laurence Sulfur stinky yes, I don't think R chondrites are considered troilite rich - are they not
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA could sell...
I certainly don't think NASA should sell all the moon rock, but I don't see any harm in selling off a few very carefully selected waste pieces (currently they even count back and store all the waste dust from cutting losses!), there must be a large amount of material that is contaminated by the terrestrial environment by processing/handling etc, that has no special value to science (it's useless). Especially if this money was genuinely used to further space research (naively assuming it really was used for this!), it could actually be used to fund a lot more space/lunar research! I estimate we probably could fund an automatic sample return mission to both mars [and] to the moon, just for the 'cost' of a few off cut Apollo lunar chunks.. Mark -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Martin Altmann Sent: 27 June 2011 08:59 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA could sell... To sell the Apollo rocks? Have you taken leave of your senses?!? Those rocks, which the heroes of my youth brought back, risking their lives, and in the greatest technical adventure of all times?? You're all watching too much TV! Too much science fiction! We can't go around in the solar system in that way you're taking a cab! Manned spaceflight is extremely difficult and extremely dangerous. Look what we can do. At the moment we have an assemblage of tin cans in such a low orbit, a kind of water ski in spaceflight, in a so low orbit, that the grandmas call the police, whenever the ISS cross over their heads! And more we cannot! Now we are all trembling, that the little box called Dawn will not fail and send us some data from the front garden of our tiny solar system. Lunar materials, think to the millions of man-hours spent in the deserts, to assemble the tiny pile of lunar meteorites, so small and light-weighted, that everyone of us can lift it without difficulties. (And think about that, whenever your nose starts to wrinkle, when such a specimen offered is lousy 100 bucks more expensive per gram than you expected.) And although I feel still quite healthy, I won't live to see a man or woman on Moon again (not to mention Mars). Really. Rather sell the Brooklyn Bridge. And which meteorites shall NASA sell? Those from ANSMET? That isn't possible because the Antarctic Treaty prevents that, and hey - we're all buyers and sellers of meteorites, so we definitely know, that the revenues would be out of absolutely all proportion to the expenses paid to collect these meteorites. And thus, it would be even probably elements of offence, a misappropriation. Huh, we're just selling a brachinite, the freshest available, where in 36 years of Antarctic searches by all countries together not more than 3 different were found, together half a pound. And we are selling that one in slices and not in bulk - and at a total, wherefore you can pay having an ANSMET-Team exactly one single day on the ice! These are the relations. It is absolutely necessary, that the ANSMET meteorites stay in the courtesy of governmental institutes and universities - their acquisition was expensive enough! (No offense, in my eyes these costs are fully justified). To sell them on the market would bring in peanuts compared to that, what the taxpayer had spent for them. And Richard, who says, that NASA wouldn't buy meteorites? Nasa consists of hundreds of departments - of course if you address to the janitor, he won't buy a meteorite. But those exploring the solar system do, of course. And the abnormal opinion of people, pretending to be scientists interested in meteorites, that a Moon or a chondrite is per se a crime, that you found at best in countries with an underdeveloped meteorite research like e.g. Australia or Oman, but certainly not in USA. ;-) Martin __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA could sell...
Hi Mark, I estimate we probably could fund an automatic sample return mission to both mars [and] to the moon, just for the 'cost' of a few off cut Apollo lunar chunks.. Well the cost estimation of an automatic Mars sample return mission, then a cooperation between NASA ESA - a rover probing different Martian rocks on surface - and where 500grams shall be expedited back to Earth - is estimated in the 5-8 billion $ range. Makes up a gram price, if you want to cover it with the sale of half of the Apollo rocks, of something around 35k$. (But who shall buy that stuff? - after 13 years STILL not all of DaG 400 is sold, and that at current prices around 1k$/g - and that stone had only 1.4kg...). Hmm, my last mail didn't made it through. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mark Ford Gesendet: Montag, 27. Juni 2011 13:41 An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA could sell... I certainly don't think NASA should sell all the moon rock, but I don't see any harm in selling off a few very carefully selected waste pieces (currently they even count back and store all the waste dust from cutting losses!), there must be a large amount of material that is contaminated by the terrestrial environment by processing/handling etc, that has no special value to science (it's useless). Especially if this money was genuinely used to further space research (naively assuming it really was used for this!), it could actually be used to fund a lot more space/lunar research! I estimate we probably could fund an automatic sample return mission to both mars [and] to the moon, just for the 'cost' of a few off cut Apollo lunar chunks.. Mark -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Martin Altmann Sent: 27 June 2011 08:59 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA could sell... To sell the Apollo rocks? Have you taken leave of your senses?!? Those rocks, which the heroes of my youth brought back, risking their lives, and in the greatest technical adventure of all times?? You're all watching too much TV! Too much science fiction! We can't go around in the solar system in that way you're taking a cab! Manned spaceflight is extremely difficult and extremely dangerous. Look what we can do. At the moment we have an assemblage of tin cans in such a low orbit, a kind of water ski in spaceflight, in a so low orbit, that the grandmas call the police, whenever the ISS cross over their heads! And more we cannot! Now we are all trembling, that the little box called Dawn will not fail and send us some data from the front garden of our tiny solar system. Lunar materials, think to the millions of man-hours spent in the deserts, to assemble the tiny pile of lunar meteorites, so small and light-weighted, that everyone of us can lift it without difficulties. (And think about that, whenever your nose starts to wrinkle, when such a specimen offered is lousy 100 bucks more expensive per gram than you expected.) And although I feel still quite healthy, I won't live to see a man or woman on Moon again (not to mention Mars). Really. Rather sell the Brooklyn Bridge. And which meteorites shall NASA sell? Those from ANSMET? That isn't possible because the Antarctic Treaty prevents that, and hey - we're all buyers and sellers of meteorites, so we definitely know, that the revenues would be out of absolutely all proportion to the expenses paid to collect these meteorites. And thus, it would be even probably elements of offence, a misappropriation. Huh, we're just selling a brachinite, the freshest available, where in 36 years of Antarctic searches by all countries together not more than 3 different were found, together half a pound. And we are selling that one in slices and not in bulk - and at a total, wherefore you can pay having an ANSMET-Team exactly one single day on the ice! These are the relations. It is absolutely necessary, that the ANSMET meteorites stay in the courtesy of governmental institutes and universities - their acquisition was expensive enough! (No offense, in my eyes these costs are fully justified). To sell them on the market would bring in peanuts compared to that, what the taxpayer had spent for them. And Richard, who says, that NASA wouldn't buy meteorites? Nasa consists of hundreds of departments - of course if you address to the janitor, he won't buy a meteorite. But those exploring the solar system do, of course. And the abnormal opinion of people, pretending to be scientists interested in meteorites, that a Moon or a chondrite is per se a crime, that you found at best in countries with an underdeveloped meteorite research like e.g. Australia or Oman, but certainly not in USA. ;-) Martin
[meteorite-list] Stones with High Troilite, Low Metal
Hi Pete, What about an LL -- with some desert weathering? The low-low metal can be converted to small Fe-oxides or veins. I recently classified Northwest Africa 6588 (LL6-an), that had only trace amounts of Fe-Ni metal. The ubiquitous sulfides present are pendlandite and stoichiometric pyrite. See metsoc 2011 abstract: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/metsoc2011/pdf/5418.pdf Are you sure the sulfide is all troilite? Carl Agee -- Carl B. Agee Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences MSC03 2050 University of New Mexico Albuquerque NM 87131-1126 Tel: (505) 750-7172 Fax: (505) 277-3577 Email: a...@unm.edu http://epswww.unm.edu/iom/pers/agee.html - Message: 13 Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 00:31:45 -0400 From: Pete Pete rsvp...@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Stones with High Troilite, Low Metal To: mexicod...@aim.com, meteoritem...@gmail.com, meteoritelist meteoritelist meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Message-ID: bay153-w42304efe707206467a6876f8...@phx.gbl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Thank you all for your responses. You're right, Doug, too ambiguous a question. I have an unclassified NWA, which I've sliced and polished. There are so many interesting features that it is the type that you never get tired of looking at under the microscope. It has what appears to be the remains of transformed chondrules; four total in about 2cm^2 surface. Three look like bit-remains of brecciated chondrules, grey and white. The other looks like a typical barred chondrule that has become completely crystallised, and has the schiller effect. A very fine grained matrix, no observable free metal as in nickel/iron, and what *appears* to be typical troilite scattered throughout. Low attraction to a neodymium magnet. The fusion crust is relatively fresh, with no chert. Quite different from the others I've got, so I was hoping to read and possibly view images of similar. As I said, there are no silver metal flecks, only the dull yellow troilite-looking areas. Is it possible for nickel/iron to have this appearance, too? I had mentally eliminated that due to the low magnet attraction, but I've got lots to learn. Cheers, Pete __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Tile Glows
Richard, James, very cool ... and especially being a witness of history in the making for you guys ... Does anyone know if these tiles show any signs of fusion (Is there evidence of a fusion crust in this material or is is so structurally pure and aerodynamically designed that a tile in proper service never reaches a temperature for that to occur) as they wear out, or how exactly material disappears as they wear out in old age (vs. a defect)? Best wishes Doug -Original Message- From: James Beauchamp falco...@sbcglobal.net To: cdtuc...@cox.net; 'Michael Gilmer' meteoritem...@gmail.com; 'MexicoDoug' mexicod...@aim.com; John.L.Cabassi j...@cabassi.net; Richard Montgomery rickm...@earthlink.net Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, Jun 27, 2011 12:00 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Tile Glows Yes, I remember the demonstration repeated many times on broadcast TV prior to the first launch. About ten seconds after it was orange, he reached over and picked it up. --- On Sun, 6/26/11, Richard Montgomery rickm...@earthlink.net wrote: From: Richard Montgomery rickm...@earthlink.net Subject: [meteorite-list] Tile Glows To: cdtuc...@cox.net, 'Michael Gilmer' meteoritem...@gmail.com, 'MexicoDoug' mexicod...@aim.com, John.L.Cabassi j...@cabassi.net Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Sunday, June 26, 2011, 10:50 PM Long before the first Shuttle mission, I recall being somewhere at a party where some fella pulled out of his back-pack what he called a Heat-Tile...and proceeded to give a demonstration: he literally held the tile in his hand and fired it with an acetylene torch. The torch-side glowed red-hot and he still held it in his hand. Then the Space Shuttle. Back then (1978-maybe80???) I mention this because I witnessed it in private hands before anyone publically knew of the technologyshedding some light upon 'widely gurded secrets.' Back then I was into frisbee freestyle and remembering my undergraduate degree was sort of importantwasn't taking many notes. Pondering before-factors and more, Richard Montgomery - Original Message - From: cdtuc...@cox.net To: 'Michael Gilmer' meteoritem...@gmail.com; 'MexicoDoug' mexicod...@aim.com; John.L.Cabassi j...@cabassi.net Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Moon Dust Blaine Reed had an actual shuttle tile in his room at the Gem show. I don't recall the price. This was a real actual tile with numbers on it indicating where it went on the shuttle not just the material used to make real tiles as indicated on this web site. Blaine's was significantly more expensive because it was real but, I don't think it was flown in space. I was able to hold it. It weighs almost nothing. It feels like you are holding chalk, NOT ceramic tile. Carl Meteoritemax . -- Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. John.L.Cabassi j...@cabassi.net wrote: http://www.thespaceshop.com/shuttilin.html -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Michael Gilmer Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 8:20 AM To: MexicoDoug Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Moon Dust Hi Doug and List, Doug - it is great to see you posting again. I have missed your insights. :) They are selling heat tiles from the shuttles at KSC? I didn't know that, and I want one! I've been meaning to acquire some more space-related items - aerogel, heat shield tiles, etc. Do they have a website where I can order the tiles, or do I need to visit the gift shop in person? Best regards, MikeG PS - is there somewhere online to buy the Russian tiles also? -- - Galactic Stone Ironworks - Meteorites Amber (Michael Gilmer) Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 - On 6/25/11, MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com wrote: JG wrote to MG: What law are you talking about? Ditto! A fact-supported discussion would be so much nicer. It is my understanding that when Apollo lost its funding, oodles of relics entered the private domain and there wasn't much ado about it - rather, a tacit acceptance and a party atmosphere pervaded in the wake of Moonphoria and non had any scientific value at the time. Where are the retroactive vigorous sting operations hunting down these national treasures? I am sure the same laws, whatever they might be, cover them. Post-facto
Re: [meteorite-list] Stones with High Troilite, Low Metal
Hello Laurence, Doug, All, From an NAU site about R-chondrites: sulfide rich: pyrrhotite and pentlandite very common, minor troilite; pentlandite commonly contains Cr up to 2 wt%, troilite may contain Ni up to 3 wt% http://www4.nau.edu/meteorite/Meteorite/Rumuruti.html Which raised the question -- what is troilite and what is pyrrhotite? Pyrrhotite is an unusual iron sulfide mineral with a variable iron content: Fe(1-x)S (x = 0 to 0.2). The FeS endmember is known as troilite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhotite So, troilite is always pyrrhotite, but pyrrhotite isn't always troilite. I don't know whether the sulfides in R-chondrites is primarily FeS where S=1 or S1, but the distinction is rarely made except in academic circles. In fact, none of the following top hits goes into any depth regarding pyrrhotite vs troilite concentrations in R-chondrites. These were the first three I found: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1994Metic..29..275S http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1994Metic..29..255R http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0009281911000237 - The only source I found in my short quest for knowledge that bothered to note how much troilite is (typically) present in R-chondrites is the NAU website. You may well be right, but since troilite is typically present in rather minor concentrations in most meteorites, I have the feeling that they are not depleted in it relative to most other types...but I could be wrong. For the purposes of Pete's visual observations, I think we can assume that he meant sulfides in general, since I doubt he has the analytical capability to tell between FeS (S=1) or FeS (S = 1 to 0.8). When I saw Pete's note, I immediately thought of R-chondrites, too...though I wonder if his stone might not be an LL-chondrite. We have a few R's, and when poked with a neodymium magnet, the pull is *barely* discernible, to the point that I might call them entirely non-magnetic if I weren't being careful. Regards, Jason On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 6:15 PM, MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com wrote: Hi Laurence Sulfur stinky yes, I don't think R chondrites are considered troilite rich - are they not comparatively troilite poor? That's why I asked why he wasn't after pentlandite (and pyrrhotite) as well. The question is pretty useless trivia without more information about what the asker is after ... , Sulfur (check), Sulfides (check), Low free metals, terrestrial weathering, different alterations, they are all bundled up together. I mean, R chondrites are loaded with metal but it was oxidized after the formation, right? Considering, they are quite troilite poor unless the objective is sulfur-rich meteorites and not after troilite after all... maybe perhaps who knows Best Doug (Thinking of Mrs. Pennyfeather now!) -Original Message- From: Laurence Garvie lgar...@asu.edu To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sun, Jun 26, 2011 8:15 pm Subject: [meteorite-list] Stones with High Troilite, Low Metal The Rumuruti (R Class) chondrites lack free metal and are sulfide rich. Laurence CMS ASU On Jun 26, 2011, at 2:19 PM, meteorite-list-requ...@meteoritecentral.com wrote: Message: 13 Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 14:55:17 -0400 From: Pete Pete rsvp...@hotmail.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Stones with High Troilite, Low Metal To: meteoritelist meteoritelist meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Message-ID: bay153-w48a18a066f0629249c54c5f8...@phx.gbl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sorry about that - once more with a subject: Hi, All, Is there any particular stone meteorite that has a high content of troilite and a low content of free metal? Cheers, Pete __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA SDO video
Thank you very much Jeff ! I was first going to answer privately, but I want to share my irritation with the list. I cannot believe that I got a private complain about my question ! This list is really a pretty good mirror of our ever increasing aggressive world... A list where the Delete key is of great use... All the best from France... Michael From: Jeff Kuyken Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 12:03 PM To: Michael Bross ; E.P. Grondine ; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA SDO video Hi Michael, It may have been the one I posted last week? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rev8vHjBq88 Cheers, Jeff Kuyken Meteorites Australia www.meteorites.com.au Vice President - I.M.C.A. Inc. www.imca.cc __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Identification of 2 historical meteorites from S America
Hi Arnaud, Atacama is the current synonym of Imilac (London NHM Catalog- Grady et al). See: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=12025 Look at the end of the writeup for all other synonyms of Imilac. Perou is not mentioned...(see below) Note that Copiapo is another meteorite having the same synonym Atacama. See, e.g.: G. Watson, 1938: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1077155/pdf/pnas01800-0010.pdf However, Copiapo is an IAB iron (silicated) and its recognized synonym is rather Atacama Desert or Desert of Atacama (Grady, op. cit.). Also, Copiapo (20 kg chunk) was discovered in 1863 (thus after 1842 but before 1866) For other Imilac synonym possibilities and variants, see: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php On your picture 1, the three iron samples as shown neither resemble a pallasite in general nor imilac in particular. But you should better know, by perhaps better examining these specimans and/or searching for some olivine remanents. Now against Imilac is the analysis repoprted by Wasson (THE world iron meteorite specialist): Fe: 90%; Ni: 9.9%; Ga: 21.1 ppm; Ge: 46 ppm and Ir: 0.071 ppm (and NO chromium mentioned) which is definitely different from the analysis you are mentioning (Turner) Regarding Perou, this name was never reported for Imilac, though the 3 pictures you show in link 2 are by all means Imilac (very typical!). I tried to find out a meteorite having as synonym Perou (or Pérou, or Peru...) but failed (would need more time and patience) In conclusion, after this 15-20 min searching the literature I have here on hand (Mulhouse), it seems that the Perou (link 2) is most probably Imilac (but only from visual comparison) while the Atacama (link 1), although official synonym of Imilac, neither corresponds from pics comparison (though your pics are not fully clear as prints), nor regarding its Ni analysis I hope this helps to promote to some extent the schmilblick Bonne chance Zelimir (Note: after writing this, I noticed a few other replies. Seems link N°2 is well confirmed as Imilac. However, part of the mystery remains ragarding samples from link 1 ) r...@free.fr a écrit : Hi List, I've been following the list for about a year now and this is my first post. I must say I've learned a lot from you even, sometimes, in the middle of an heated discussion. Meteorites definitely bring a lot of passions. I'm a geologist, French and I live in Toulouse, a busy city of SW France -Airbus main factory and office are here- but where people know how to relax. Toulouse is also where the oldest western academy was founded, the Academy of the Floral Games or College of the Happy Science, in 1323! I'm pursuing some historical researches about meteorites. I've collaborated off-list with Mark Grossman (hello Mark!) on several issues -check his meteorite manuscripts blog if you haven't already. Aside from my main study, that I'll present later, I'm doing an history-focused catalogue of the meteorites that are kept in Toulouse in 2 collections, University and Museum. The Natural History Museum is a small but nice one and was entirely renovated a few years ago. The meteorite collection is also small but we have here about a half kg of Orgueil (located about 35 km N of Toulouse), two fist-sized Ausson samples and the unique and 99% complete 14 kg stone of Saint Sauveur (EH5) that fell a few days before the onset of WW1, in 1914, 15 km N of Toulouse: http://www.museum.toulouse.fr/explorer_3/les_collections_20/roches_mineraux_80/meteorites_424/chondrite_enstatite_426/index.html?lang=fr We have some trouble to identify 2 meteorites from the Museum, that's why I'm calling for help. Many of you have seen lots of meteorites and you may specifically recognize these stones before or have information that may lead to their identification. I give below all the information I have (be careful, some may be erroneous) and links to pictures. #1: so called Atacama, sometimes with Perou attached 3 irons, 8,5+1,7+0,5 g acquired by the Museum possibly before 1842, certainly before 1866 Fragment of the mass kept in Vienna. Analyzed by Turner: Fe 93,40, Ni 6,62, Cr 0,54 http://i29.servimg.com/u/f29/10/09/49/44/atacam10.jpg #2: so called Perou 1 iron, possibly a weathered pallassite, 15 g acquired in 1958 or later http://i29.servimg.com/u/f29/10/09/49/44/parou10.jpg Hope you can help! Renaud __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA could sell...
Personally I completely disagree with the cost estimate of 5-8 billion, a simple small robotic sample mission really ought to be not too difficult (Russia did Lunar sample return on a total shoestring in the 60's). I would send a simple, small lander, grab some rocks in a scoop then take off and return. (Turning the mission into a full rover prospecting mission is bound to increase the cost drastically!) The stardust mission for example cost around $200 Million (that was a sample return all be it a space capture). A lunar sample return would be much cheaper than a Martian one obviously, but small mars rocket motor designs and a return module have already been studied in several different NASA/ESA feasibility proposals, and I would be surprised if they cost anything like 5 Billion, I rekon it could be done for less than $500 Million, if it was a simple small grab and return system. I'd also do it using a cheaper and more fuel efficient return method than traditionally, such as Ion engine technology, it would take much longer but would require much less of a fuel payload than a conventional return to earth would, then I would advocate using the ISS as a capture and return lab, rather than risking a traditional re-entry, this would save money too, as you wouldn't be returning a complete re-entry vehicle back from mars! I think you would easily sell a few kilos of Apollo moon rock with no trouble at all, there are enough rich billionaires (probably they would not even be meteorite collectors) out there who would snap it up, it would be a truly unique opportunity this would attract plenty of speculators -it would be a different market than meteorite samples. Besides plenty of people would buy microscopic amounts (put me down for an Apollo 11 super-micro any time!!). Best, Mark -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Martin Altmann Sent: 27 June 2011 13:13 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA could sell... Hi Mark, I estimate we probably could fund an automatic sample return mission to both mars [and] to the moon, just for the 'cost' of a few off cut Apollo lunar chunks.. Well the cost estimation of an automatic Mars sample return mission, then a cooperation between NASA ESA - a rover probing different Martian rocks on surface - and where 500grams shall be expedited back to Earth - is estimated in the 5-8 billion $ range. Makes up a gram price, if you want to cover it with the sale of half of the Apollo rocks, of something around 35k$. (But who shall buy that stuff? - after 13 years STILL not all of DaG 400 is sold, and that at current prices around 1k$/g - and that stone had only 1.4kg...). Hmm, my last mail didn't made it through. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mark Ford Gesendet: Montag, 27. Juni 2011 13:41 An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA could sell... I certainly don't think NASA should sell all the moon rock, but I don't see any harm in selling off a few very carefully selected waste pieces (currently they even count back and store all the waste dust from cutting losses!), there must be a large amount of material that is contaminated by the terrestrial environment by processing/handling etc, that has no special value to science (it's useless). Especially if this money was genuinely used to further space research (naively assuming it really was used for this!), it could actually be used to fund a lot more space/lunar research! I estimate we probably could fund an automatic sample return mission to both mars [and] to the moon, just for the 'cost' of a few off cut Apollo lunar chunks.. Mark -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Martin Altmann Sent: 27 June 2011 08:59 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA could sell... To sell the Apollo rocks? Have you taken leave of your senses?!? Those rocks, which the heroes of my youth brought back, risking their lives, and in the greatest technical adventure of all times?? You're all watching too much TV! Too much science fiction! We can't go around in the solar system in that way you're taking a cab! Manned spaceflight is extremely difficult and extremely dangerous. Look what we can do. At the moment we have an assemblage of tin cans in such a low orbit, a kind of water ski in spaceflight, in a so low orbit, that the grandmas call the police, whenever the ISS cross over their heads! And more we cannot! Now we are all trembling, that the little box called Dawn will not fail and send us some data from the front garden of our tiny solar system. Lunar
[meteorite-list] AD - Special Auctions Ending - Serious Bargains!
Dear List Members, I have three sets of auctions due to end today and tomorrow including some larger planetary pieces. You will probably at least want to check out the outstanding auctions ending later today. You will find examples worth several hundred dollars started out at just 99 cents with no reserve. Currently, they are bid far below wholesale so you may want to do some bargain hunting.. Link to all auctions: http://shop.ebay.com/raremeteorites!/m.html Thank you for looking and if you are bidding, good luck. Best Regards, Adam Hupe The Hupe Collection IMCA 2185 Team Lunar Rock __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] The Apollo Moon Rock Collection
Having been in charge of the Apollo Collection as well as the other collections at NASA Johnson Space Center (JSC) from 1998-2002, here is my take on this discussion. One of the main goals of curation at JSC is preserving the collection for posterity and for future study with instruments not yet imagined or by scientists not yet born. The Moon rocks are treated like a national treasure. As many of you may know, the curation protocols at JSC are the gold standard for extraterrestrial sample handling. For example, the collection is kept in high purity nitrogen, only materials restricted to of short list of aluminum, stainless steel, and Teflon are allow to touch the samples. The curation facility was built as a clean lab with positive air pressure, airlocks, and is operated by a highly trained staff. The Lunar Vault is built to withstand hurricanes, tornadoes, and floods -- and just to be on the safe side NASA has placed 15% of the collection at White Sands Test Facility, a few miles outside Las Cruces, New Mexico, locked away for safe keeping just in case of a catastrophic loss of the Lunar Lab in Houston. When people think about what a Mars Sample Return Lab design might look like, the first place they start from is the Lunar Sample Lab. Clearly, JSC does a fabulous job of handling, curating, and keeping the lunar samples safe, there is no museum or private collector in the world that comes close to Lunar Lab quality. However, the one thing that I think is missing from this facility is an equally spectacular public outreach component. Sure, the public can look at a few Moon rocks at museum displays here and there nationwide, but very few people ever get the privilege of being a visitor at the Lunar Lab. It is NOT open to the public. I think NASA, and JSC in particular, could enhance its image and boost public excitement and support for astromaterials research by somehow giving better public access to view these crown jewels in their laboratory setting. You may have guessed already that I'm not a big proponent of selling off the Moon Rocks to fund NASA missions, as a few people on the list have proposed. Even if Americans thought this was a good idea, I am pretty sure we would come up a few billion dollars short to do anything like a decent robotic Mars Sample Return. Furthermore, I doubt if many Americans would be in favor of cutting up pieces of the Declaration of Indepence or chunks of the Liberty Bell to sell as high priced souvenirs, or sell off tracts of Yellowstone Park to reduce our nation's debt. But I do think the Lunar Collection could be opened up to the public in away that would be beneficial to everyone, not the least to NASA itself. Carl Agee -- Carl B. Agee Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences MSC03 2050 University of New Mexico Albuquerque NM 87131-1126 Tel: (505) 750-7172 Fax: (505) 277-3577 Email: a...@unm.edu http://epswww.unm.edu/iom/pers/agee.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] The Apollo Moon Rock Collection
Cheers! I agree completely with your post! Even if we went to the moon today and retrieved a ton of rocks. They would still not be Apollo moon rocks. When I first visited the space center in Houston I was upset there were no display of all the moon rocks. they have capsules, space suites,rockets,landers, and lots of other stuff. all very cool! But the rocks are what they went to the moon to bring back. I felt like ok I'm looking at a pot of paint used by picasso it doesnt paint the picture! Cheers Steve Dunklee --- On Mon, 6/27/11, Carl Agee a...@unm.edu wrote: From: Carl Agee a...@unm.edu Subject: [meteorite-list] The Apollo Moon Rock Collection To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Monday, June 27, 2011, 5:24 PM Having been in charge of the Apollo Collection as well as the other collections at NASA Johnson Space Center (JSC) from 1998-2002, here is my take on this discussion. One of the main goals of curation at JSC is preserving the collection for posterity and for future study with instruments not yet imagined or by scientists not yet born. The Moon rocks are treated like a national treasure. As many of you may know, the curation protocols at JSC are the gold standard for extraterrestrial sample handling. For example, the collection is kept in high purity nitrogen, only materials restricted to of short list of aluminum, stainless steel, and Teflon are allow to touch the samples. The curation facility was built as a clean lab with positive air pressure, airlocks, and is operated by a highly trained staff. The Lunar Vault is built to withstand hurricanes, tornadoes, and floods -- and just to be on the safe side NASA has placed 15% of the collection at White Sands Test Facility, a few miles outside Las Cruces, New Mexico, locked away for safe keeping just in case of a catastrophic loss of the Lunar Lab in Houston. When people think about what a Mars Sample Return Lab design might look like, the first place they start from is the Lunar Sample Lab. Clearly, JSC does a fabulous job of handling, curating, and keeping the lunar samples safe, there is no museum or private collector in the world that comes close to Lunar Lab quality. However, the one thing that I think is missing from this facility is an equally spectacular public outreach component. Sure, the public can look at a few Moon rocks at museum displays here and there nationwide, but very few people ever get the privilege of being a visitor at the Lunar Lab. It is NOT open to the public. I think NASA, and JSC in particular, could enhance its image and boost public excitement and support for astromaterials research by somehow giving better public access to view these crown jewels in their laboratory setting. You may have guessed already that I'm not a big proponent of selling off the Moon Rocks to fund NASA missions, as a few people on the list have proposed. Even if Americans thought this was a good idea, I am pretty sure we would come up a few billion dollars short to do anything like a decent robotic Mars Sample Return. Furthermore, I doubt if many Americans would be in favor of cutting up pieces of the Declaration of Indepence or chunks of the Liberty Bell to sell as high priced souvenirs, or sell off tracts of Yellowstone Park to reduce our nation's debt. But I do think the Lunar Collection could be opened up to the public in away that would be beneficial to everyone, not the least to NASA itself. Carl Agee -- Carl B. Agee Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences MSC03 2050 University of New Mexico Albuquerque NM 87131-1126 Tel: (505) 750-7172 Fax: (505) 277-3577 Email: a...@unm.edu http://epswww.unm.edu/iom/pers/agee.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Tile Glows
Wow ! Nice links, James. Still aren't clear what the heat-exposed surface looks like on a microscopic scale after use, but it certainly sounds on paper like the tiles are near perfectly resistant/stable. Can you imagine an artificial bolide made of a sphere of this material? My favorite size, a basketball sized-sphere of it falling from orbit would have the following characteristics: 1024 gram mass 59 mph (95 km/h) impact velocity NOT TOO HOT AND NOT TOO COLD - BUT JUST RIGHT TO TOUCH! ...and apparently no ablation loss! For comparison, a real inflated basketball, on the other hand would theoretically be: 650 gram initial mass 47 mph (75 km/h) impact velocity, theoretically: if it could withstand the atmospheric passage but you'd end up with an exploded smelly burnt cinder instead that you wouldn't really want to touch ;-) ...if not complete ablation loss! This stuff is only 57% heavier than the bulk density of an inflated basketball! Space Hoops, anyone ... a chance for games out of the pages of an Asimov, Clark or Heinlein novel for those brave enough to play space-catch! Best wishes Doug -Original Message- From: James Beauchamp falco...@sbcglobal.net To: cdtuc...@cox.net; meteoritem...@gmail.com; j...@cabassi.net; rickm...@earthlink.net; MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, Jun 27, 2011 7:58 am Subject: A better link.. Re: [meteorite-list] Tile Glows http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/technology/sts-newsref/sts_sys.html The HRSI tiles are made of a low-density, high-purity silica 99.8-percent amorphous fiber (fibers derived from common sand, 1 to 2 mils thick) insulation that is made rigid by ceramic bonding. Because 90 percent of the tile is void and the remaining 10 percent is material, the tile weighs approximately 9 pounds per cubic foot. A slurry containing fibers mixed with water is frame-cast to form soft, porous blocks to which a collodial silica binder solution is added. When it is sintered, a rigid block is produced that is cut into quarters and then machined to the precise dimensions required for individual tiles. HRSI tiles vary in thickness from 1 inch to 5 inches. The variable thickness is determined by the heat load encountered during entry. Generally, the HRSI tiles are thicker at the forward areas of the orbiter and thinner toward the aft end. Except for closeout areas, theHRSI tiles are nominally 6- by 6-inch squares. The HRSI tiles vary in sizes and shapes in the closeout areas on the orbiter. The HRSI tiles withstand on-orbit cold soak conditions, repeated heating and cooling thermal shock and extreme acoustic environments (165 decibels) at launch. For example, an HRSI tile taken from a 2,300 F oven can be immersed in cold water without damage. Surface heat dissipates so quickly that an uncoated tile can be held by its edges with an ungloved hand seconds after removal from the oven while its interior still glows red. The HRSI tiles are coated on the top and sides with a mixture of powdered tetrasilicide and borosilicate glass with a liquid carrier. This material is sprayed on the tile to coating thicknesses of 16 to 18 mils. The coated tiles then are placed in an oven and heated to a temperature of 2,300 F. This results in a black, waterproof glossy coating that has a surface emittance of 0.85 and a solar absorptance of about 0.85. After the ceramic coating heating process, the remaining silica fibers are treated with a silicon resin to provide bulk waterproofing. Note that the tiles cannot withstand airframe load deformation; therefore, stress isolation is necessary between the tiles and the orbiter structure. This isolation is provided by a strain isolation pad. SIPs isolate the tiles from the orbiter's structural deflections, expansions and acoustic excitation, thereby preventing stress failure in the tiles. The SIPs are thermal isolators made of Nomex felt material supplied in thicknesses of 0.090, 0.115 or 0.160 inch. SIPs are bonded to the tiles, and the SIP and tile assembly is bonded to the orbiterstructure by an RTV process. Nomex felt is a basic aramid fiber. The fibers are 2 deniers in fineness, 3 inches long and crimped. They are loaded into a carding machine that untangles the clumps of fibers and combs them to make a tenuous mass of lengthwise-oriented, relatively parallel fibers called a web. The cross-lapped web is fed into a loom, where it is lightly needled into a batt. Generally, two such batts are placed face-to-face and needled together to form felt. The felt then is subjected to a multineedle pass process until the desired strength is reached. The needled felt is calendered to stabilize at a thickness of 0.16 inch to 0.40 inch by passing through heated rollers at selected pressures. The calendered material is heat-set at approximately 500 F to thermally stabilize the felt. The RTV silicon adhesive is applied to the orbiter surface in a
Re: [meteorite-list] The Apollo Moon Rock Collection
Hi Carl and List, Thanks for your perspective Carl. When framed in that context, selling the Apollo rocks does seem a bit silly. However, would the same Liberty Bell comparison hold true for ANSMET specimens? There must be some leftovers or crumbs from the ANSMET collection that would fetch a small fortune on the collector market. I'd pay a premium for micromounts from ANSMET. I didn't mean any disrespect towards the US, NASA, or science by suggesting that NASA should sell off a small portion of it's collection. And I agree that the proceeds from the sale would not be nearly enough to fund a space mission. But I think it could generate a useful amount of cash that could be put towards good purposes. I also agree that the Apollo and ANSMET collections should be more accessible to the public. Perhaps a permanent in-house display with a self-guided tour could generate a small amount of revenue - charge for admission and have a gift shop located by the entry/exit with tiny lucite-encased samples for sale, themed collector displays, and memorabilia (T-shirts, etc). Of course, it would have to be done tastefully and respectfully, so it would seem too commercial. This is surely a pipe-dream, but us laymen have to dream.. :) One more idea just occurred to me - sell one spot per year on the ANSMET team to the highest competent bidder. As it stands now, one has to be degreed to be considered (or be a well-recommended grad student). But if they would allow the advanced layman to bid for chance to join the team, I know I would register to bid in a heartbeat! Best regards, MikeG -- - Galactic Stone Ironworks - Meteorites Amber (Michael Gilmer) Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 - On 6/27/11, Carl Agee a...@unm.edu wrote: Having been in charge of the Apollo Collection as well as the other collections at NASA Johnson Space Center (JSC) from 1998-2002, here is my take on this discussion. One of the main goals of curation at JSC is preserving the collection for posterity and for future study with instruments not yet imagined or by scientists not yet born. The Moon rocks are treated like a national treasure. As many of you may know, the curation protocols at JSC are the gold standard for extraterrestrial sample handling. For example, the collection is kept in high purity nitrogen, only materials restricted to of short list of aluminum, stainless steel, and Teflon are allow to touch the samples. The curation facility was built as a clean lab with positive air pressure, airlocks, and is operated by a highly trained staff. The Lunar Vault is built to withstand hurricanes, tornadoes, and floods -- and just to be on the safe side NASA has placed 15% of the collection at White Sands Test Facility, a few miles outside Las Cruces, New Mexico, locked away for safe keeping just in case of a catastrophic loss of the Lunar Lab in Houston. When people think about what a Mars Sample Return Lab design might look like, the first place they start from is the Lunar Sample Lab. Clearly, JSC does a fabulous job of handling, curating, and keeping the lunar samples safe, there is no museum or private collector in the world that comes close to Lunar Lab quality. However, the one thing that I think is missing from this facility is an equally spectacular public outreach component. Sure, the public can look at a few Moon rocks at museum displays here and there nationwide, but very few people ever get the privilege of being a visitor at the Lunar Lab. It is NOT open to the public. I think NASA, and JSC in particular, could enhance its image and boost public excitement and support for astromaterials research by somehow giving better public access to view these crown jewels in their laboratory setting. You may have guessed already that I'm not a big proponent of selling off the Moon Rocks to fund NASA missions, as a few people on the list have proposed. Even if Americans thought this was a good idea, I am pretty sure we would come up a few billion dollars short to do anything like a decent robotic Mars Sample Return. Furthermore, I doubt if many Americans would be in favor of cutting up pieces of the Declaration of Indepence or chunks of the Liberty Bell to sell as high priced souvenirs, or sell off tracts of Yellowstone Park to reduce our nation's debt. But I do think the Lunar Collection could be opened up to the public in away that would be beneficial to everyone, not the least to NASA itself. Carl Agee -- Carl B. Agee Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
Re: [meteorite-list] The Apollo Moon Rock Collection
List, Of course, it would have to be done tastefully and respectfully, so it would seem too commercial. Typographical error. I meant to say so it would NOT seem too commercial. Best regards, MikeG On 6/27/11, Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Carl and List, Thanks for your perspective Carl. When framed in that context, selling the Apollo rocks does seem a bit silly. However, would the same Liberty Bell comparison hold true for ANSMET specimens? There must be some leftovers or crumbs from the ANSMET collection that would fetch a small fortune on the collector market. I'd pay a premium for micromounts from ANSMET. I didn't mean any disrespect towards the US, NASA, or science by suggesting that NASA should sell off a small portion of it's collection. And I agree that the proceeds from the sale would not be nearly enough to fund a space mission. But I think it could generate a useful amount of cash that could be put towards good purposes. I also agree that the Apollo and ANSMET collections should be more accessible to the public. Perhaps a permanent in-house display with a self-guided tour could generate a small amount of revenue - charge for admission and have a gift shop located by the entry/exit with tiny lucite-encased samples for sale, themed collector displays, and memorabilia (T-shirts, etc). Of course, it would have to be done tastefully and respectfully, so it would seem too commercial. This is surely a pipe-dream, but us laymen have to dream.. :) One more idea just occurred to me - sell one spot per year on the ANSMET team to the highest competent bidder. As it stands now, one has to be degreed to be considered (or be a well-recommended grad student). But if they would allow the advanced layman to bid for chance to join the team, I know I would register to bid in a heartbeat! Best regards, MikeG -- - Galactic Stone Ironworks - Meteorites Amber (Michael Gilmer) Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 - On 6/27/11, Carl Agee a...@unm.edu wrote: Having been in charge of the Apollo Collection as well as the other collections at NASA Johnson Space Center (JSC) from 1998-2002, here is my take on this discussion. One of the main goals of curation at JSC is preserving the collection for posterity and for future study with instruments not yet imagined or by scientists not yet born. The Moon rocks are treated like a national treasure. As many of you may know, the curation protocols at JSC are the gold standard for extraterrestrial sample handling. For example, the collection is kept in high purity nitrogen, only materials restricted to of short list of aluminum, stainless steel, and Teflon are allow to touch the samples. The curation facility was built as a clean lab with positive air pressure, airlocks, and is operated by a highly trained staff. The Lunar Vault is built to withstand hurricanes, tornadoes, and floods -- and just to be on the safe side NASA has placed 15% of the collection at White Sands Test Facility, a few miles outside Las Cruces, New Mexico, locked away for safe keeping just in case of a catastrophic loss of the Lunar Lab in Houston. When people think about what a Mars Sample Return Lab design might look like, the first place they start from is the Lunar Sample Lab. Clearly, JSC does a fabulous job of handling, curating, and keeping the lunar samples safe, there is no museum or private collector in the world that comes close to Lunar Lab quality. However, the one thing that I think is missing from this facility is an equally spectacular public outreach component. Sure, the public can look at a few Moon rocks at museum displays here and there nationwide, but very few people ever get the privilege of being a visitor at the Lunar Lab. It is NOT open to the public. I think NASA, and JSC in particular, could enhance its image and boost public excitement and support for astromaterials research by somehow giving better public access to view these crown jewels in their laboratory setting. You may have guessed already that I'm not a big proponent of selling off the Moon Rocks to fund NASA missions, as a few people on the list have proposed. Even if Americans thought this was a good idea, I am pretty sure we would come up a few billion dollars short to do anything like a decent robotic Mars Sample Return. Furthermore, I doubt if many Americans would be in favor of cutting up pieces of the Declaration of Indepence or chunks of the Liberty Bell to sell as high priced souvenirs, or sell off tracts of Yellowstone
Re: [meteorite-list] The Apollo Moon Rock Collection
Furthermore, I doubt if many Americans would be in favor of cutting up pieces of the Declaration of Indepence or chunks of the Liberty Bell to sell as high priced souvenirs, or sell off tracts of Yellowstone Park to reduce our nation's debt. Obama hasn't thought about that yet. :0 -- Stuart McDaniel Lawndale, NC IMCA#9052 http://www.facebook.com/Stuart.McDaniel.No.1 Carl Agee a...@unm.edu wrote: = Having been in charge of the Apollo Collection as well as the other collections at NASA Johnson Space Center (JSC) from 1998-2002, here is my take on this discussion. One of the main goals of curation at JSC is preserving the collection for posterity and for future study with instruments not yet imagined or by scientists not yet born. The Moon rocks are treated like a national treasure. As many of you may know, the curation protocols at JSC are the gold standard for extraterrestrial sample handling. For example, the collection is kept in high purity nitrogen, only materials restricted to of short list of aluminum, stainless steel, and Teflon are allow to touch the samples. The curation facility was built as a clean lab with positive air pressure, airlocks, and is operated by a highly trained staff. The Lunar Vault is built to withstand hurricanes, tornadoes, and floods -- and just to be on the safe side NASA has placed 15% of the collection at White Sands Test Facility, a few miles outside Las Cruces, New Mexico, locked away for safe keeping just in case of a catastrophic loss of the Lunar Lab in Houston. When people think about what a Mars Sample Return Lab design might look like, the first place they start from is the Lunar Sample Lab. Clearly, JSC does a fabulous job of handling, curating, and keeping the lunar samples safe, there is no museum or private collector in the world that comes close to Lunar Lab quality. However, the one thing that I think is missing from this facility is an equally spectacular public outreach component. Sure, the public can look at a few Moon rocks at museum displays here and there nationwide, but very few people ever get the privilege of being a visitor at the Lunar Lab. It is NOT open to the public. I think NASA, and JSC in particular, could enhance its image and boost public excitement and support for astromaterials research by somehow giving better public access to view these crown jewels in their laboratory setting. You may have guessed already that I'm not a big proponent of selling off the Moon Rocks to fund NASA missions, as a few people on the list have proposed. Even if Americans thought this was a good idea, I am pretty sure we would come up a few billion dollars short to do anything like a decent robotic Mars Sample Return. Furthermore, I doubt if many Americans would be in favor of cutting up pieces of the Declaration of Indepence or chunks of the Liberty Bell to sell as high priced souvenirs, or sell off tracts of Yellowstone Park to reduce our nation's debt. But I do think the Lunar Collection could be opened up to the public in away that would be beneficial to everyone, not the least to NASA itself. Carl Agee -- Carl B. Agee Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences MSC03 2050 University of New Mexico Albuquerque NM 87131-1126 Tel: (505) 750-7172 Fax: (505) 277-3577 Email: a...@unm.edu http://epswww.unm.edu/iom/pers/agee.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] The Apollo Moon Rock Collection
What all is included in the ANSMET collection, are they all ALH? -- Stuart McDaniel Lawndale, NC IMCA#9052 http://www.facebook.com/Stuart.McDaniel.No.1 Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com wrote: = Hi Carl and List, Thanks for your perspective Carl. When framed in that context, selling the Apollo rocks does seem a bit silly. However, would the same Liberty Bell comparison hold true for ANSMET specimens? There must be some leftovers or crumbs from the ANSMET collection that would fetch a small fortune on the collector market. I'd pay a premium for micromounts from ANSMET. I didn't mean any disrespect towards the US, NASA, or science by suggesting that NASA should sell off a small portion of it's collection. And I agree that the proceeds from the sale would not be nearly enough to fund a space mission. But I think it could generate a useful amount of cash that could be put towards good purposes. I also agree that the Apollo and ANSMET collections should be more accessible to the public. Perhaps a permanent in-house display with a self-guided tour could generate a small amount of revenue - charge for admission and have a gift shop located by the entry/exit with tiny lucite-encased samples for sale, themed collector displays, and memorabilia (T-shirts, etc). Of course, it would have to be done tastefully and respectfully, so it would seem too commercial. This is surely a pipe-dream, but us laymen have to dream.. :) One more idea just occurred to me - sell one spot per year on the ANSMET team to the highest competent bidder. As it stands now, one has to be degreed to be considered (or be a well-recommended grad student). But if they would allow the advanced layman to bid for chance to join the team, I know I would register to bid in a heartbeat! Best regards, MikeG -- - Galactic Stone Ironworks - Meteorites Amber (Michael Gilmer) Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 - On 6/27/11, Carl Agee a...@unm.edu wrote: Having been in charge of the Apollo Collection as well as the other collections at NASA Johnson Space Center (JSC) from 1998-2002, here is my take on this discussion. One of the main goals of curation at JSC is preserving the collection for posterity and for future study with instruments not yet imagined or by scientists not yet born. The Moon rocks are treated like a national treasure. As many of you may know, the curation protocols at JSC are the gold standard for extraterrestrial sample handling. For example, the collection is kept in high purity nitrogen, only materials restricted to of short list of aluminum, stainless steel, and Teflon are allow to touch the samples. The curation facility was built as a clean lab with positive air pressure, airlocks, and is operated by a highly trained staff. The Lunar Vault is built to withstand hurricanes, tornadoes, and floods -- and just to be on the safe side NASA has placed 15% of the collection at White Sands Test Facility, a few miles outside Las Cruces, New Mexico, locked away for safe keeping just in case of a catastrophic loss of the Lunar Lab in Houston. When people think about what a Mars Sample Return Lab design might look like, the first place they start from is the Lunar Sample Lab. Clearly, JSC does a fabulous job of handling, curating, and keeping the lunar samples safe, there is no museum or private collector in the world that comes close to Lunar Lab quality. However, the one thing that I think is missing from this facility is an equally spectacular public outreach component. Sure, the public can look at a few Moon rocks at museum displays here and there nationwide, but very few people ever get the privilege of being a visitor at the Lunar Lab. It is NOT open to the public. I think NASA, and JSC in particular, could enhance its image and boost public excitement and support for astromaterials research by somehow giving better public access to view these crown jewels in their laboratory setting. You may have guessed already that I'm not a big proponent of selling off the Moon Rocks to fund NASA missions, as a few people on the list have proposed. Even if Americans thought this was a good idea, I am pretty sure we would come up a few billion dollars short to do anything like a decent robotic Mars Sample Return. Furthermore, I doubt if many Americans would be in favor of cutting up pieces of the Declaration of Indepence or chunks of the Liberty Bell to sell as high priced souvenirs, or sell off tracts of Yellowstone Park to reduce our nation's debt. But I do think the Lunar Collection could be
Re: [meteorite-list] Identification of 2 historical meteorites from S America
Hi Carl, Atacama is not mentioned as synonym for North Chile in the MetBull database: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?sea=north+chilesfor=namesants=falls=valids=stype=containslrec=50map=gebrowse=country=Allsrt=namecateg=Allmblist=Allrect=phot=snew=0pnt=Normal%20tablecode=17001 But I did not search elsewhere, nor I have on hand Haag's calatogs. On the other hand, Arnaud is mentioning ther the 3 unknown samples were acquired by the Toulouse museum certainly before 1866 while North Chile was reported to have been found in 1875 It could be interesting to look for the Ni % in North Chile, just in case... Zelimir cdtuc...@cox.net a écrit : Arnaud, According to Bob Haag's Field Guide Of Meteorites in both the 10th and 12th editions Bob lists the number 1 meteorite as Atacama, North Chile and says it is a Hexaheddrite. Based on this info and Bob's vast amount of experience. If I wanted a piece of Atacama , I would be looking for a piece of North Chile. And it looks like the pictures you show as well. Carl Meteoritemax -- Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. zelimir.gabel...@uha.fr wrote: Hi Arnaud, Atacama is the current synonym of Imilac (London NHM Catalog- Grady et al). See: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=12025 Look at the end of the writeup for all other synonyms of Imilac. Perou is not mentioned...(see below) Note that Copiapo is another meteorite having the same synonym Atacama. See, e.g.: G. Watson, 1938: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1077155/pdf/pnas01800-0010.pdf However, Copiapo is an IAB iron (silicated) and its recognized synonym is rather Atacama Desert or Desert of Atacama (Grady, op. cit.). Also, Copiapo (20 kg chunk) was discovered in 1863 (thus after 1842 but before 1866) For other Imilac synonym possibilities and variants, see: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php On your picture 1, the three iron samples as shown neither resemble a pallasite in general nor imilac in particular. But you should better know, by perhaps better examining these specimans and/or searching for some olivine remanents. Now against Imilac is the analysis repoprted by Wasson (THE world iron meteorite specialist): Fe: 90%; Ni: 9.9%; Ga: 21.1 ppm; Ge: 46 ppm and Ir: 0.071 ppm (and NO chromium mentioned) which is definitely different from the analysis you are mentioning (Turner) Regarding Perou, this name was never reported for Imilac, though the 3 pictures you show in link 2 are by all means Imilac (very typical!). I tried to find out a meteorite having as synonym Perou (or Pérou, or Peru...) but failed (would need more time and patience) In conclusion, after this 15-20 min searching the literature I have here on hand (Mulhouse), it seems that the Perou (link 2) is most probably Imilac (but only from visual comparison) while the Atacama (link 1), although official synonym of Imilac, neither corresponds from pics comparison (though your pics are not fully clear as prints), nor regarding its Ni analysis I hope this helps to promote to some extent the schmilblick Bonne chance Zelimir (Note: after writing this, I noticed a few other replies. Seems link N°2 is well confirmed as Imilac. However, part of the mystery remains ragarding samples from link 1 ) r...@free.fr a écrit : Hi List, I've been following the list for about a year now and this is my first post. I must say I've learned a lot from you even, sometimes, in the middle of an heated discussion. Meteorites definitely bring a lot of passions. I'm a geologist, French and I live in Toulouse, a busy city of SW France -Airbus main factory and office are here- but where people know how to relax. Toulouse is also where the oldest western academy was founded, the Academy of the Floral Games or College of the Happy Science, in 1323! I'm pursuing some historical researches about meteorites. I've collaborated off-list with Mark Grossman (hello Mark!) on several issues -check his meteorite manuscripts blog if you haven't already. Aside from my main study, that I'll present later, I'm doing an history-focused catalogue of the meteorites that are kept in Toulouse in 2 collections, University and Museum. The Natural History Museum is a small but nice one and was entirely renovated a few years ago. The meteorite collection is also small but we have here about a half kg of Orgueil (located about 35 km N of Toulouse), two fist-sized Ausson samples and the unique and 99% complete 14 kg stone of Saint Sauveur (EH5) that fell a few days before the onset of WW1, in 1914, 15 km N of Toulouse: http://www.museum.toulouse.fr/explorer_3/les_collections_20/roches_mineraux_80/meteorites_424/chondrite_enstatite_426/index.html?lang=fr We have some trouble to identify 2 meteorites from the Museum, that's why I'm
[meteorite-list] AD: Gujba 4.61g slice for sale
Hi all, I have a 4.61g slice of Gujba available for sale at a good price :-) Please see link below if interested: 4.61g slice of Gujba. Rare Bencubbinite (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=250846041092ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT) I am open to offers and if off ebay may well accept a lower offer! Cheers from a sunny UK -- Martin Goff www.msg-meteorites.co.uk IMCA #3387 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA could sell...
Mark, List, Go Get Your Own Moon Rocks! What? You say you can't afford a small intra-planetary vehicle, a little robot to go to the Moon and collect a few kilos of Moon Rocks for you? No problemo. Then what you need is is to buy a share of a private space company's Lunar Return Mission, right? Like: http://www.interorbital.com/Lunar%20Sample%20Return_1.htm All that is needed to secure a share of returned lunar material is a 10% deposit (against a $7500/gm cost). You say all you want is to put a micro-satellite into low Earth orbit, you say? They have a satellite kit (with launch included) for only $8,000: http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/07/tubesat-personal-satellite/ You even get a free second launch if the first one fails. More about them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interorbital_Systems IOS holds an active Office of Commercial Space Transportation Launch License... is currently working on a line of launch vehicles aimed at winning the Google Lunar X Prize. The company was also a competitor for both the Ansari X-Prize and America's Space Prize... Sterling K. Webb Disclaimer: All email purchase advice is worth no more than the electrons used to send the emil, and my liability is limited to the cost of said electrons, which I would refund by mailing you a small, used button battery. - Original Message - From: Mark Ford mark.f...@ssl.gb.com To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 9:23 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA could sell... Personally I completely disagree with the cost estimate of 5-8 billion, a simple small robotic sample mission really ought to be not too difficult (Russia did Lunar sample return on a total shoestring in the 60's). I would send a simple, small lander, grab some rocks in a scoop then take off and return. (Turning the mission into a full rover prospecting mission is bound to increase the cost drastically!) The stardust mission for example cost around $200 Million (that was a sample return all be it a space capture). A lunar sample return would be much cheaper than a Martian one obviously, but small mars rocket motor designs and a return module have already been studied in several different NASA/ESA feasibility proposals, and I would be surprised if they cost anything like 5 Billion, I rekon it could be done for less than $500 Million, if it was a simple small grab and return system. I'd also do it using a cheaper and more fuel efficient return method than traditionally, such as Ion engine technology, it would take much longer but would require much less of a fuel payload than a conventional return to earth would, then I would advocate using the ISS as a capture and return lab, rather than risking a traditional re-entry, this would save money too, as you wouldn't be returning a complete re-entry vehicle back from mars! I think you would easily sell a few kilos of Apollo moon rock with no trouble at all, there are enough rich billionaires (probably they would not even be meteorite collectors) out there who would snap it up, it would be a truly unique opportunity this would attract plenty of speculators -it would be a different market than meteorite samples. Besides plenty of people would buy microscopic amounts (put me down for an Apollo 11 super-micro any time!!). Best, Mark -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Martin Altmann Sent: 27 June 2011 13:13 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA could sell... Hi Mark, I estimate we probably could fund an automatic sample return mission to both mars [and] to the moon, just for the 'cost' of a few off cut Apollo lunar chunks.. Well the cost estimation of an automatic Mars sample return mission, then a cooperation between NASA ESA - a rover probing different Martian rocks on surface - and where 500grams shall be expedited back to Earth - is estimated in the 5-8 billion $ range. Makes up a gram price, if you want to cover it with the sale of half of the Apollo rocks, of something around 35k$. (But who shall buy that stuff? - after 13 years STILL not all of DaG 400 is sold, and that at current prices around 1k$/g - and that stone had only 1.4kg...). Hmm, my last mail didn't made it through. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mark Ford Gesendet: Montag, 27. Juni 2011 13:41 An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA could sell... I certainly don't think NASA should sell all the moon rock, but I don't see any harm in selling off a few very carefully
Re: [meteorite-list] The Apollo Moon Rock Collection
Can we please refrain from bringing politics into meteorites, unless the politician in question is actively doing something for or against our hobby? Mahalo, Tracy Latimer Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 15:52:58 -0400 From: actionshoot...@carolina.rr.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; a...@unm.edu Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The Apollo Moon Rock Collection Furthermore, I doubt if many Americans would be in favor of cutting up pieces of the Declaration of Indepence or chunks of the Liberty Bell to sell as high priced souvenirs, or sell off tracts of Yellowstone Park to reduce our nation's debt. Obama hasn't thought about that yet. :0 -- Stuart McDaniel Lawndale, NC IMCA#9052 http://www.facebook.com/Stuart.McDaniel.No.1 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] The Apollo Moon Rock Collection
Ah, a nerve has been touched. Now, the downhill slide begins! -Original Message- From: tracy latimer daist...@hotmail.com Sent: Jun 27, 2011 4:52 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The Apollo Moon Rock Collection Can we please refrain from bringing politics into meteorites, unless the politician in question is actively doing something for or against our hobby? Mahalo, Tracy Latimer Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 15:52:58 -0400 From: actionshoot...@carolina.rr.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; a...@unm.edu Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The Apollo Moon Rock Collection Furthermore, I doubt if many Americans would be in favor of cutting up pieces of the Declaration of Indepence or chunks of the Liberty Bell to sell as high priced souvenirs, or sell off tracts of Yellowstone Park to reduce our nation's debt. Obama hasn't thought about that yet. :0 -- Stuart McDaniel Lawndale, NC IMCA#9052 http://www.facebook.com/Stuart.McDaniel.No.1 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] New Topic - Can you ID - Fusion Crust
List: I was wondering if anyone can ID a meteorite type solely on the fusion crust; like drinking different cokes or holding agate nodules and identifying the ones that are geodes. Imagine a number of half-cut meteorites on a table (cut-face down); could you ID the types of meteorite, and how would you do it? Only looking at the fusion crust. Greg S __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] The Apollo Moon Rock Collection
Actually, ALL politicians impact the collection of planetary and asteroidal meteorites. By giving away billions in public assistance to poor people and even more billions in corporate welfare to rich people, money is diverted from meteorite collection. No one will return to the moon as long as politicians choose to spend the national treasure on trillion dollar wars and bloated military budgets. If you want NASA properly funded, just make it part of the Defense Department. A military base on the moon by 2020! C'mon, we can do it! Politicians control the purse strings and if they didn't mismanage the people's money so badly, we'd be up to our elbows in meteorites. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] trips to the Moon
http://www.space.com/-private-moon-trips-forecast.html Dear fellow listers, for only 100 million dollars you can go to the moon and gather your own Lunar specimens. It could be a very profitable enterprise. But the rumor mill has it that China will be going to the Moon next. If you go there be sure to dodge those nasty cosmic rays. There is a society of brainiacs that has designed a substantial Moon base. Sadly that facility must be built beneath the Lunar surface in a volcanic cavern to shield the inhabitants from cosmic ray exposure. Cheers, E.T. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Dept. of Defense
In fact, NASA already IS part of the Dept. of Defense. With a quick check of NASA's charter, it clearly defines that NASA operates officially under Dept. of Defense jurisdiction. If you will recall, remember all of the Shuttle DOD missions flown during the 1980's. These were all missions flown strictly under a high security cloak, with most of these missions releasing classified military satellites. Kirk:-) - Original Message - From: JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 4:55 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] The Apollo Moon Rock Collection Actually, ALL politicians impact the collection of planetary and asteroidal meteorites. By giving away billions in public assistance to poor people and even more billions in corporate welfare to rich people, money is diverted from meteorite collection. No one will return to the moon as long as politicians choose to spend the national treasure on trillion dollar wars and bloated military budgets. If you want NASA properly funded, just make it part of the Defense Department. A military base on the moon by 2020! C'mon, we can do it! Politicians control the purse strings and if they didn't mismanage the people's money so badly, we'd be up to our elbows in meteorites. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Lahcen Ait Ha and Gary
Hi List, today the story of Gary and Lahcen Ait Ha came to an end ..verything is alright and fixed..As he promised,Lahcen Ait Ha has brought back Gary`s money to me today. So,Gary show us your smile,please :-) So i would like to thank my Moroccan friends(Aziz Habibi and Ali Oulmah) who contributed to solve the problem.. best regards Said Haddany I.M.C.A # 8108 Morocco __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Identification of ONE historical meteorite from S America
Thanks to Michael, Doug, Mike, Carl, LeeAnn, Richard, Rob, Murray and Zelimir for their quick and kind replies to my request for help. #2 has been unanimously identified as IMILAC on the base of the external aspect which, according to the many pictures found on the web, is quite recognizable. #1 is still undetermined. I would not rely on the name (Atacama) too literally as #2 was erroneously named Peru. Probably it only refers to the Atacama desert region. The earliest information I have on this stones is that they were obtained on february 04, 1866, from De Limur, a politician from Bretagne and a member of the Societe Francaise de Mineralogie. In the MetBull database I could find 5 irons that fell or were found before this date in the Atacama region. Imilac 1822, Pallasite, PMG Barranca Blanca 1855, Iron, IIE-an Joel's Iron 1858, Iron, IIIAB Vaca Muerta 1861, Mesosiderite-A1 Copiapo 1863, IAB-MG Imilac can be excluded because of the 10% Ni it contains (analysis from Wasson, reported by M Gabelica). I suppose others can be eliminated on the basis of the composition (Ni 6.62, Cr 0.54) and the petrological type, can someone help? If chemically compatible, Copiapo would be a good candidate because there is a small piece of this meteorite in the collection of the University here. However, I didn't get a chance to take a look at it yet for comparison. Discovering who this Turner (who has done the analysis) is may help. Doug suggested it could be Dr Grenville Turner, a research professor at the University of Manchester, born in 1936. Also, is there a way to identify the stones directly with the composition, I mean does it exist a database allowing this kind of search? Renaud __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Dept. of Defense
Kirk... In fact, NASA already IS part of the Dept. of Defense. With a quick check of NASA's charter, it clearly defines that NASA operates officially under Dept. of Defense jurisdiction. uh, no. NASA was expressly set up to be a civilian agency. the NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958 (as amended) is here: http://history.nasa.gov/spaceact-legishistory.pdf it says, in part: ...such activities shall be the responsibility of, and shall be directed by, a civilian agency exercising control over aeronautical and space activities sponsored by the United States, except that activities peculiar to or primarily associated with the development of weapons systems, military operations, or the defense of the United States (including the research and development necessary to make effective provision for the defense of the United States) shall be the responsibility of, and shall be directed by, the Department of Defense; and that determination as to which such agency has responsibility for and direction of any such activity shall be made by the President... initially there was a National Space Council, chaired by the Vice President, on which the Secretary of Defense was a member; and initially there was a Civilian-Military Liaison Committee. both have since been abolished. clear skies, Kelly J. Kelly Beatty Senior Contributing Editor SKY TELESCOPE 617-416-9991 SkyandTelescope.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] New Animation Depicts Next Mars Rover in Action (MSL)
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2011-195 New Animation Depicts Next Mars Rover in Action Jet Propulsion Laboratory June 24, 2011 Although NASA's Mars Science Laboratory will not leave Earth until late this year nor land on Mars until August 2012, anyone can watch those dramatic events now in a new animation of the mission. The full, 11-minute animation, at http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/videogallery/index.html?media_id=97780842 , shows sequences such as the spacecraft separating from its launch vehicle near Earth and the mission's rover, Curiosity, zapping rocks with a laser and examining samples of powdered rock on Mars. A shorter, narrated version is also available, at http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/videogallery/index.html?media_id=97718982 . Curiosity's landing will use a different method than any previous Mars landing, with the rover suspended on tethers from a rocket-backpack sky crane. The new animation combines detailed views of the spacecraft with scenes of real places on Mars, based on stereo images taken by earlier missions. It is a treat for the 2,000 or more people who have worked on the Mars Science Laboratory during the past eight years to watch these action scenes of the hardware the project has developed and assembled, said Mars Science Laboratory Project Manager Pete Theisinger at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. The animation also provides an exciting view of this mission for any fan of adventure and exploration. JPL manages the Mars Science Laboratory project for the NASA Science Mission Directorate, Washington. The rover and other parts of the spacecraft have been delivered to NASA Kennedy Space Center in Florida for launch during the period of Nov. 25 to Dec. 18, 2011. In August 2012, Curiosity will land on Mars for a two-year mission to examine whether conditions in the landing area have been favorable for microbial life and for preserving evidence about whether life has existed there. JPL is a division of the California Institute of Technology, Pasadena. For more information about the Mars Science Laboratory, visit http://www.nasa.gov/msl and http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/ . Guy Webster 818-354-6278 Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. guy.webs...@jpl.nasa.gov 2011-195 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fun Meteorite Auction (UPDATE AD)
Auction on the two NWA whole stones closes in about 5 1/2 hrs. 5 bids on 1.16Kg Unidentified NWA With the current bid at $325, requiring a $350- bid to take it. One bid on 951.48g NWA 6852 (LL6) main mass Current bid at $650- requiring a bid of $675- to take it. SEE BOTH at: http://michaelbloodmeteorites.com/NWAAuctionJune2011.html BIDDING CLOSES AT 10:30 PM PDT on the dot. Best wishes, Michael __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] trips to the Moon (Moon bases and meteorite recovery)
Hi Edwin, Sterling, and List, I love a good science-fiction, science-fact, trip into speculation land. It reminds me of the old pulp sci-fi novels from the 50's and 60's that I have read, with rocketships and moon bases. Cosmic rays are not the only threat, there are also micro-meteorites and meteorites. The Late Heavy Bombardment is long over, but there is still a lot of debris peppering the Earth and Moon on a regular basis. With no atmosphere, the lunar surface is basically naked to incoming impactors. A base facility on the lunar surface would be subject to high-velocity impacts on a random basis. Now we can all imagine how the lunar surface is probably littered with plentiful meteorites. The Apollo astronauts were not meteorite hunters, nor did they have any specific mission or training involving meteorites. The first meteorite recovery team to be stationed on the Moon would be the very first people to hunt the surface - the opposite of being hunted out. The problem is the lethal environment involved. It would be a death-trap full of meteorites if not handled properly. The Apollo astronauts could not stay out for the extended periods necessary to walk a grid or do a meaningful amount of searching for suspect rocks. Although we have made some advancements since then, the lunar surface is still the most hostile, alien, and lethal environment that an Earthly meteorite hunter could imagine. Our modern day meteornauts on the Moon would have to rely on radar, remote rovers, and man-operated rovers. To have any permanent presence on the Moon, the surface would need a warning system for incoming impactors. We can assume an early-warning detection system, partially automated, that consists of satellites and surface-based radars, telescopes, and other sensors. This warning system would detect potential impactors that are large enough to damage facilities or personnel. So, we could have a lunar rover that could carry a small team of 2 individuals over a long distance with a meaningful duration (say, several hours, or even overnight in some cases.). These individuals would be dispatched to retrieve large/heavy meteorites that smaller unmanned rovers could not pick up. They could safely travel the surface (relatively speaking) and they could be warned to evade/avoid a potentially deadly strike by the warning system. They would still have to worry about the rare fluke micro-meteorite or one that slips through the detection system, but it would be slightly better odds than a crap-shoot. The bulk of the searching and retrieval would be accomplished by robust remote-operately rovers. These would be larger than the current Mars rovers we know so well (thanks for the always reliable updates Mr. Baalke!), but small enough to be produced on a low to modest budget. Essentially it would be a wander and grab rover with a sophisticated optical system than can scan the lunar surface in high resolution and provide a first person view to the rover operator who is located miles away in an underground facility. It's main attributes would be quickness (to cover larger amounts of real estate in a much shorter time span than today's rovers), keen eyes (cameras), and economy of travel (able to stay afield for extended periods of time). The rover would also have a robotic arm and a collection bin than can be hermetically sealed. The operator would use the rover to locate and retrieve all meteorites within the operating range of the rover. Those meteorites which are too large, too heavy, or too numerous for the rover to recover, would be assigned to a manned rover mission to recover the specimens. I don't think there would be a lunar base built just to retrieve meteorites. However, one can envision a scientific base that is an all-purpose facility to house a number of teams that are based there for extended periods of time and are rotated in and out. Astronomers, chemists, physicists, geologiststhe potential uses for a lunar surface facility would be many and varied, and meteorites could be one of those missions. Instead of ANSMET, we could have MOONMET - now who is going to apply for the first expedition? Best regards, MikeG -- - Galactic Stone Ironworks - Meteorites Amber (Michael Gilmer) Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 - On 6/27/11, Edwin Thompson etmeteori...@hotmail.com wrote: http://www.space.com/-private-moon-trips-forecast.html Dear fellow listers, for only 100 million dollars you can go to the moon and gather your own Lunar specimens. It could be a very profitable enterprise. But the rumor mill has it that
Re: [meteorite-list] The Apollo Moon Rock Collection
Carl, and List, THIS is why and how I am proud to be part of this List discussion group. Between the banter and sometimes painful childish rancor, the gems show up. To the point: when we consider posterity and the opportunity for future study of things not yet even concieved, let alone invented, we have this wisdom of preservation foresight to thank. After all, time is eternity, and who friggin' knows when or if we'll ever get back to the moon. If, hopefully, we're on to further horizons, our lunar partner may sit there for generations...and we may have preserved the evidentiary keys. Thanks Carl for the post! -Richard Montgomery - Original Message - From: Carl Agee a...@unm.edu To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 10:24 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] The Apollo Moon Rock Collection Having been in charge of the Apollo Collection as well as the other collections at NASA Johnson Space Center (JSC) from 1998-2002, here is my take on this discussion. One of the main goals of curation at JSC is preserving the collection for posterity and for future study with instruments not yet imagined or by scientists not yet born. The Moon rocks are treated like a national treasure. As many of you may know, the curation protocols at JSC are the gold standard for extraterrestrial sample handling. For example, the collection is kept in high purity nitrogen, only materials restricted to of short list of aluminum, stainless steel, and Teflon are allow to touch the samples. The curation facility was built as a clean lab with positive air pressure, airlocks, and is operated by a highly trained staff. The Lunar Vault is built to withstand hurricanes, tornadoes, and floods -- and just to be on the safe side NASA has placed 15% of the collection at White Sands Test Facility, a few miles outside Las Cruces, New Mexico, locked away for safe keeping just in case of a catastrophic loss of the Lunar Lab in Houston. When people think about what a Mars Sample Return Lab design might look like, the first place they start from is the Lunar Sample Lab. Clearly, JSC does a fabulous job of handling, curating, and keeping the lunar samples safe, there is no museum or private collector in the world that comes close to Lunar Lab quality. However, the one thing that I think is missing from this facility is an equally spectacular public outreach component. Sure, the public can look at a few Moon rocks at museum displays here and there nationwide, but very few people ever get the privilege of being a visitor at the Lunar Lab. It is NOT open to the public. I think NASA, and JSC in particular, could enhance its image and boost public excitement and support for astromaterials research by somehow giving better public access to view these crown jewels in their laboratory setting. You may have guessed already that I'm not a big proponent of selling off the Moon Rocks to fund NASA missions, as a few people on the list have proposed. Even if Americans thought this was a good idea, I am pretty sure we would come up a few billion dollars short to do anything like a decent robotic Mars Sample Return. Furthermore, I doubt if many Americans would be in favor of cutting up pieces of the Declaration of Indepence or chunks of the Liberty Bell to sell as high priced souvenirs, or sell off tracts of Yellowstone Park to reduce our nation's debt. But I do think the Lunar Collection could be opened up to the public in away that would be beneficial to everyone, not the least to NASA itself. Carl Agee -- Carl B. Agee Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences MSC03 2050 University of New Mexico Albuquerque NM 87131-1126 Tel: (505) 750-7172 Fax: (505) 277-3577 Email: a...@unm.edu http://epswww.unm.edu/iom/pers/agee.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Dept. of Defense
I stand partially corrected. Although designated, perhaps as a civilian agency by the 1958 decree, NASA still must operate within under the defense security act of the Dept. of Defense. Kirk. - Original Message - From: Kelly Beatty jkellybea...@comcast.net To: 'Becky and Kirk' ba...@chorus.net; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 6:59 PM Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] NASA Dept. of Defense Kirk... In fact, NASA already IS part of the Dept. of Defense. With a quick check of NASA's charter, it clearly defines that NASA operates officially under Dept. of Defense jurisdiction. uh, no. NASA was expressly set up to be a civilian agency. the NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958 (as amended) is here: http://history.nasa.gov/spaceact-legishistory.pdf it says, in part: ...such activities shall be the responsibility of, and shall be directed by, a civilian agency exercising control over aeronautical and space activities sponsored by the United States, except that activities peculiar to or primarily associated with the development of weapons systems, military operations, or the defense of the United States (including the research and development necessary to make effective provision for the defense of the United States) shall be the responsibility of, and shall be directed by, the Department of Defense; and that determination as to which such agency has responsibility for and direction of any such activity shall be made by the President... initially there was a National Space Council, chaired by the Vice President, on which the Secretary of Defense was a member; and initially there was a Civilian-Military Liaison Committee. both have since been abolished. clear skies, Kelly J. Kelly Beatty Senior Contributing Editor SKY TELESCOPE 617-416-9991 SkyandTelescope.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] The Apollo Moon Rock Collection
...and adendum to my last post: I am, though, very interested to hear more from your colleagues, Carl. Ted? What are the opinions of this? A vast source of study. (I have no idea who has access to what.) - Original Message - From: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com To: Carl Agee a...@unm.edu Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The Apollo Moon Rock Collection Hi Carl and List, Thanks for your perspective Carl. When framed in that context, selling the Apollo rocks does seem a bit silly. However, would the same Liberty Bell comparison hold true for ANSMET specimens? There must be some leftovers or crumbs from the ANSMET collection that would fetch a small fortune on the collector market. I'd pay a premium for micromounts from ANSMET. I didn't mean any disrespect towards the US, NASA, or science by suggesting that NASA should sell off a small portion of it's collection. And I agree that the proceeds from the sale would not be nearly enough to fund a space mission. But I think it could generate a useful amount of cash that could be put towards good purposes. I also agree that the Apollo and ANSMET collections should be more accessible to the public. Perhaps a permanent in-house display with a self-guided tour could generate a small amount of revenue - charge for admission and have a gift shop located by the entry/exit with tiny lucite-encased samples for sale, themed collector displays, and memorabilia (T-shirts, etc). Of course, it would have to be done tastefully and respectfully, so it would seem too commercial. This is surely a pipe-dream, but us laymen have to dream.. :) One more idea just occurred to me - sell one spot per year on the ANSMET team to the highest competent bidder. As it stands now, one has to be degreed to be considered (or be a well-recommended grad student). But if they would allow the advanced layman to bid for chance to join the team, I know I would register to bid in a heartbeat! Best regards, MikeG -- - Galactic Stone Ironworks - Meteorites Amber (Michael Gilmer) Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 - On 6/27/11, Carl Agee a...@unm.edu wrote: Having been in charge of the Apollo Collection as well as the other collections at NASA Johnson Space Center (JSC) from 1998-2002, here is my take on this discussion. One of the main goals of curation at JSC is preserving the collection for posterity and for future study with instruments not yet imagined or by scientists not yet born. The Moon rocks are treated like a national treasure. As many of you may know, the curation protocols at JSC are the gold standard for extraterrestrial sample handling. For example, the collection is kept in high purity nitrogen, only materials restricted to of short list of aluminum, stainless steel, and Teflon are allow to touch the samples. The curation facility was built as a clean lab with positive air pressure, airlocks, and is operated by a highly trained staff. The Lunar Vault is built to withstand hurricanes, tornadoes, and floods -- and just to be on the safe side NASA has placed 15% of the collection at White Sands Test Facility, a few miles outside Las Cruces, New Mexico, locked away for safe keeping just in case of a catastrophic loss of the Lunar Lab in Houston. When people think about what a Mars Sample Return Lab design might look like, the first place they start from is the Lunar Sample Lab. Clearly, JSC does a fabulous job of handling, curating, and keeping the lunar samples safe, there is no museum or private collector in the world that comes close to Lunar Lab quality. However, the one thing that I think is missing from this facility is an equally spectacular public outreach component. Sure, the public can look at a few Moon rocks at museum displays here and there nationwide, but very few people ever get the privilege of being a visitor at the Lunar Lab. It is NOT open to the public. I think NASA, and JSC in particular, could enhance its image and boost public excitement and support for astromaterials research by somehow giving better public access to view these crown jewels in their laboratory setting. You may have guessed already that I'm not a big proponent of selling off the Moon Rocks to fund NASA missions, as a few people on the list have proposed. Even if Americans thought this was a good idea, I am pretty sure we would come up a few billion dollars short to do anything like a decent robotic Mars Sample Return. Furthermore, I doubt if many Americans would be in favor of cutting up pieces of the
Re: [meteorite-list] Lahcen Ait Ha and Gary
Well done Said, Aziz, and Ali! On 12:28:47 am 06/28/11 Said Haddany mfcollec...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi List, today the story of Gary and Lahcen Ait Ha came to an end ..verything is alright and fixed..As he promised,Lahcen Ait Ha has brought back Gary`s money to me today. So,Gary show us your smile,please :-) So i would like to thank my Moroccan friends(Aziz Habibi and Ali Oulmah) who contributed to solve the problem.. best regards Said Haddany I.M.C.A # 8108 Morocco __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-arc hives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lahcen Ait Ha and Gary
Bravo!! Kirk.. - Original Message - From: ma...@imagineopals.com To: Said Haddany mfcollec...@yahoo.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 8:25 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lahcen Ait Ha and Gary Well done Said, Aziz, and Ali! On 12:28:47 am 06/28/11 Said Haddany mfcollec...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi List, today the story of Gary and Lahcen Ait Ha came to an end ..verything is alright and fixed..As he promised,Lahcen Ait Ha has brought back Gary`s money to me today. So,Gary show us your smile,please :-) So i would like to thank my Moroccan friends(Aziz Habibi and Ali Oulmah) who contributed to solve the problem.. best regards Said Haddany I.M.C.A # 8108 Morocco __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-arc hives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Asteroid 2011MD Bye-bye
Video of 2011MD against background stars: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUjbA21jjsc The pass was at 7600 miles (instead of the predicted 7500 miles) and it was 3.5 hours late from the predicted time. Mr. Newton could not be reached for comment. Sterling K. Webb __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Asteroid 2011MD Bye-bye
Hi All, I'm sure Sterling is well aware of this, but it's worth pointing out to the masses that 2011 MD wasn't late. People are simply guilty of blindly believing their favorite piece of software, apparently ignorant of the limitations of non-integrating propagation. When an asteroid is well within the sphere of influence of the earth, it is hardly appropriate to use a program that's based on Kepler's two-body equations... --Rob -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Sterling K. Webb Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 6:37 PM To: Meteorite List Subject: [meteorite-list] Asteroid 2011MD Bye-bye Video of 2011MD against background stars: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUjbA21jjsc The pass was at 7600 miles (instead of the predicted 7500 miles) and it was 3.5 hours late from the predicted time. Mr. Newton could not be reached for comment. Sterling K. Webb __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lahcen Ait Ha and Gary
Great news! --- -Melanie MetMel - avid meteorite collector/enthusiast from Canada! IMCA#: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 I eat, sleep and breath meteorites 24/7. - Original Message From: ma...@imagineopals.com ma...@imagineopals.com To: Said Haddany mfcollec...@yahoo.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 6:25:48 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lahcen Ait Ha and Gary Well done Said, Aziz, and Ali! On 12:28:47 am 06/28/11 Said Haddany mfcollec...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi List, today the story of Gary and Lahcen Ait Ha came to an end ..verything is alright and fixed..As he promised,Lahcen Ait Ha has brought back Gary`s money to me today. So,Gary show us your smile,please :-) So i would like to thank my Moroccan friends(Aziz Habibi and Ali Oulmah) who contributed to solve the problem.. best regards Said Haddany I.M.C.A # 8108 Morocco __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-arc hives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] trips to the Moon (Moon bases and meteorite recovery)
Sorry for all of my typos - I meant to say : Well taken, and I agree. Part of their mission was to retrieve lunar samples, but imagine how many meteorites could be found if a team was put on to the lunar surface with the primary focus of finding meteorites and ignoring native lunar materials. :) I'll stop posting now, I am having typing issues and developing blabber mouth. LOL On 6/27/11, Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com wrote: Hi James, Well taken, and I agree. Part of their mission was to retrieve lunar samples, but how imagine meteorites could be found if a team was put on to the lunar surface with the primary focus of finding meteorites and ignoring native lunar materials. :) Maybe Acme H3 Industries, Inc, will have the spare room in their underground base to lease out space to a meteorite hunting team, and the necessary scientific equipment to use for the mission (modified rovers, infrastructure, etc). Heck, the mining teams might unearth (unlune?) buried meteorites from under layers of regolith. Best regards, MikeG -- - Galactic Stone Ironworks - Meteorites Amber (Michael Gilmer) Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 - On 6/27/11, James Beauchamp falco...@sbcglobal.net wrote: The Apollo astronauts were not meteorite hunters, nor did they have any specific mission or training involving meteorites. Mike, I don't think that's quite correct. The Apollo crews were well versed in the expected geology, and were looking for quite a diverse lot of rocks. They spent many months training with geologists. Certainly, Dr. Schmitt was no exception on Apollo 17. From Earth to the Moon episode 10 was an excellent, even a bit romanticized focus on the geology focus. I think the focus was (and should have been) more anti-meteorite. We had plenty of those. But we didn't have verified lunar samples - to include cores and other different types. We needed more of those to verify the origins of our companion, and very little time and resources on-hand to get them. Just my thoughts on the matter. Obviously, I fully admit I should stay in my engineering corner, but couldn't help poking a little. :) --- On Mon, 6/27/11, Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com wrote: From: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] trips to the Moon (Moon bases and meteorite recovery) To: Edwin Thompson etmeteori...@hotmail.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Monday, June 27, 2011, 7:43 PM Hi Edwin, Sterling, and List, I love a good science-fiction, science-fact, trip into speculation land. It reminds me of the old pulp sci-fi novels from the 50's and 60's that I have read, with rocketships and moon bases. Cosmic rays are not the only threat, there are also micro-meteorites and meteorites. The Late Heavy Bombardment is long over, but there is still a lot of debris peppering the Earth and Moon on a regular basis. With no atmosphere, the lunar surface is basically naked to incoming impactors. A base facility on the lunar surface would be subject to high-velocity impacts on a random basis. Now we can all imagine how the lunar surface is probably littered with plentiful meteorites. The Apollo astronauts were not meteorite hunters, nor did they have any specific mission or training involving meteorites. The first meteorite recovery team to be stationed on the Moon would be the very first people to hunt the surface - the opposite of being hunted out. The problem is the lethal environment involved. It would be a death-trap full of meteorites if not handled properly. The Apollo astronauts could not stay out for the extended periods necessary to walk a grid or do a meaningful amount of searching for suspect rocks. Although we have made some advancements since then, the lunar surface is still the most hostile, alien, and lethal environment that an Earthly meteorite hunter could imagine. Our modern day meteornauts on the Moon would have to rely on radar, remote rovers, and man-operated rovers. To have any permanent presence on the Moon, the surface would need a warning system for incoming impactors. We can assume an early-warning detection system, partially automated, that consists of satellites and surface-based radars, telescopes, and other sensors. This warning system would detect potential impactors that are large enough to damage facilities or personnel. So, we could have a lunar rover that could carry a small team of 2 individuals over a long distance with a meaningful duration (say, several hours, or even
[meteorite-list] The Apollo Moon Rock Collection
As far as I can tell, bulk Apollo lunar material is studied by the NASA Lunar Science Institute. The guys that do the hands on work are known as the Lunar Exploration and Analysis Group or LEAG. One of the scientists doing analysis of moon rocks here at the University of Notre Dame uses the new multiple-collector-inductively coupled plasma mass spectrometer or MC-ICP-MS to determine the mineral composition of lunar impact melts to determine their petrogenesis and place constraints on the impactors and target lithologies. http://lunarscience.arc.nasa.gov/ http://www.lpi.usra.edu/nlsi/teamMembers/bios.shtml Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] pertinent features near Campbell Mountain, studied by Dennis Cox, by his house in Fresno, CA: Rich Murray 2011.06.27
pertinent features near Campbell Mountain, studied by Dennis Cox, by his house in Fresno, CA: Rich Murray 2011.06.27 http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2011_06_01_archive.htm Monday, June 27, 2011 [at end of each long page, click on Older Posts] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/astrodeep/message/87 [you may have to Copy and Paste URLs into your browser] __ It is easy in a few hours to locate pertinent features to the N, E, SE, and S of Campbell Mountain, studied by Dennis Cox, a few miles NE of his house in Fresno, CA. Maybe some of us can visit for a weekend and drive around, as many intriguing sites can be found by roads. http://craterhunter.wordpress.com/the-planetary-scaring-of-the-younger-dryas-impact-event/california-melt/ https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=5d6b9f6c30c6fe9fsc=photosid=5D6B9F6C30C6FE9F%211348 19 images of Fresno mountains and rock samples Dennis Cox blog, plain text, with images of samples of magnetic black glaze on melt rocks from 13 Ka ice comet fragment extreme plasma storm geoablation in Fresno, California: Rich Murray 2010.07.02 http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2010_07_01_archive.htm Friday, July 2, 2010 [ at end of each long page, click on Older Posts ] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/astrodeep/message/53 [you may have to Copy and Paste URLs into your browser] 36.69571 -119.421324 .534 km el top, Campbell Mountain in SE Fresno, CA, 35 sec aerial tour circles around it. Tours now exist for many similar mountains to the north. 36.73598 -119.407920 .643 km el top, Jesse Morrow Mountain, 35 sec aerial tour around it. 36.452852 -119.150617 .489 km el top, Colvin Mountain with another local peak, Bacon Hill, just to NW -- both have aerial circle tours, 3 km SW of Elderwood. 36.451855 -119.18095 .206 km e, .8 km size hilll, dark rock, 2 km W of Colvin Mountain. 36.800415 -119.359121 .865 km el top, Tivy Mountain, aerial tour. 36.862713 -119.399460 .728 km el top, Red Mountain, aerial tour. 36.859839 -119.39941 .622 km el, unusual hard dark mineral ridge pattern on side W side of Red Mountain -- very like a hierglyph... 36.873853 -119.379766 .291 km el pond, .09 km wide, S rim of crater 1.35 km wide NEE, about 1.5 km E of Red Mountain. 36.877794 -119.374608 .301 km el pond, .200X.127 km, on E end of 1.35 km crater about 2.5 km E of Red Mountain, E of 29094 E Trimmer Springs Rd Tollhouse, CA 93667, N of Hughes Creek Cemetary, NW of Pine Flat Dam and Lake. 36.842769 -119.365636 .357 km el top, roads for house sites. 36.855224 -119.36606 .334 km el top, rough road to top. 36.883171 -119.430696 .677 km el top, Wildcat Mountain, aerial tour includes two small ponds to SE and large bare blast area to NE. 36.879649 -119.439756 .624 km el top, NS ridge W of Wildcat Mountain. 36.875091 -119.447295 .302 km el, .6 km size impact crater with .1 km small pond and .2 km pit, houses, W of Wildcat Mountain. 36.838164 -119.424297 .302 km el, .02 km size dark impact blob on N slope. Dennis Cox reports YDB ice comet fragment airburst melt rocks now in labs for expert study: cosmictusk.blog: Rich Murray 2010.10.08 http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2010_10_01_archive.htm Friday, October 8, 2010 [ at end of each long page, click on Older Posts ] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/astrodeep/message/72 [you may have to Copy and Paste URLs into your browser] Dennis Cox, amateur extraordinaire, with 6 views given via Google Earth by Rich Murray of 360 m high mountain E of Fresno, CA, with uphill and then downhill ejecta melt flows -- informative book with 92 color images: 2010.03.25 http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2010_03_01_archive.htm Thursday, March 25, 2010 [ at end of each long page, click on Older Posts ] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/astrodeep/message/45 __ Rich Murray, MA Boston University Graduate School 1967 psychology, BS MIT 1964, history and physics, 1943 Otowi Road, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505 505-819-7388 rmfor...@gmail.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AstroDeep/messages http://RMForAll.blogspot.com new primary archive http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aspartameNM/messages group with 118 members, 1,625 posts in a public archive http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aspartame/messages group with 1226 members, 24,342 posts in a public archive http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rmforall/messages __ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Tile Glows
I would love to get my hands on a tile also!! -- Stuart McDaniel Lawndale, NC IMCA#9052 http://www.facebook.com/Stuart.McDaniel.No.1 MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com wrote: = Richard, James, very cool ... and especially being a witness of history in the making for you guys ... Does anyone know if these tiles show any signs of fusion (Is there evidence of a fusion crust in this material or is is so structurally pure and aerodynamically designed that a tile in proper service never reaches a temperature for that to occur) as they wear out, or how exactly material disappears as they wear out in old age (vs. a defect)? Best wishes Doug -Original Message- From: James Beauchamp falco...@sbcglobal.net To: cdtuc...@cox.net; 'Michael Gilmer' meteoritem...@gmail.com; 'MexicoDoug' mexicod...@aim.com; John.L.Cabassi j...@cabassi.net; Richard Montgomery rickm...@earthlink.net Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, Jun 27, 2011 12:00 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Tile Glows Yes, I remember the demonstration repeated many times on broadcast TV prior to the first launch. About ten seconds after it was orange, he reached over and picked it up. --- On Sun, 6/26/11, Richard Montgomery rickm...@earthlink.net wrote: From: Richard Montgomery rickm...@earthlink.net Subject: [meteorite-list] Tile Glows To: cdtuc...@cox.net, 'Michael Gilmer' meteoritem...@gmail.com, 'MexicoDoug' mexicod...@aim.com, John.L.Cabassi j...@cabassi.net Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Sunday, June 26, 2011, 10:50 PM Long before the first Shuttle mission, I recall being somewhere at a party where some fella pulled out of his back-pack what he called a Heat-Tile...and proceeded to give a demonstration: he literally held the tile in his hand and fired it with an acetylene torch. The torch-side glowed red-hot and he still held it in his hand. Then the Space Shuttle. Back then (1978-maybe80???) I mention this because I witnessed it in private hands before anyone publically knew of the technologyshedding some light upon 'widely gurded secrets.' Back then I was into frisbee freestyle and remembering my undergraduate degree was sort of importantwasn't taking many notes. Pondering before-factors and more, Richard Montgomery - Original Message - From: cdtuc...@cox.net To: 'Michael Gilmer' meteoritem...@gmail.com; 'MexicoDoug' mexicod...@aim.com; John.L.Cabassi j...@cabassi.net Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Moon Dust Blaine Reed had an actual shuttle tile in his room at the Gem show. I don't recall the price. This was a real actual tile with numbers on it indicating where it went on the shuttle not just the material used to make real tiles as indicated on this web site. Blaine's was significantly more expensive because it was real but, I don't think it was flown in space. I was able to hold it. It weighs almost nothing. It feels like you are holding chalk, NOT ceramic tile. Carl Meteoritemax . -- Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. John.L.Cabassi j...@cabassi.net wrote: http://www.thespaceshop.com/shuttilin.html -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Michael Gilmer Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 8:20 AM To: MexicoDoug Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Moon Dust Hi Doug and List, Doug - it is great to see you posting again. I have missed your insights. :) They are selling heat tiles from the shuttles at KSC? I didn't know that, and I want one! I've been meaning to acquire some more space-related items - aerogel, heat shield tiles, etc. Do they have a website where I can order the tiles, or do I need to visit the gift shop in person? Best regards, MikeG PS - is there somewhere online to buy the Russian tiles also? -- - Galactic Stone Ironworks - Meteorites Amber (Michael Gilmer) Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 - On 6/25/11, MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com wrote: JG wrote to MG: What law are you talking about? Ditto! A fact-supported discussion would be so much nicer. It is my understanding that when Apollo lost its funding, oodles of relics entered the private domain and there wasn't much ado about it - rather, a tacit acceptance and a party atmosphere pervaded in the wake of
Re: [meteorite-list] A better link.. Re: Tile Glows
Wow ! Nice links, James. Still aren't clear what the heat-exposed surface looks like on a microscopic scale after use, but it certainly sounds on paper like the tiles are near perfectly resistant/stable. Can you imagine an artificial bolide made of a sphere of this material? My favorite size, a basketball sized-sphere of it falling from orbit would have the following characteristics: 1024 gram mass 59 mph (95 km/h) impact velocity NOT TOO HOT AND NOT TOO COLD - BUT JUST RIGHT TO TOUCH! ...and apparently no ablation loss! For comparison, a real inflated basketball, on the other hand would theoretically be: 650 gram initial mass 47 mph (75 km/h) impact velocity, theoretically: if it could withstand the atmospheric passage but you'd end up with an exploded smelly burnt cinder instead that you wouldn't reallyb want to touch ;-) ...if not complete ablation loss! This stuff is only 57% heavier than the bulk density of an inflated basketball! Space Hoops, anyone ... what possibilities! Best wishes Doug -Original Message- From: James Beauchamp falco...@sbcglobal.net To: cdtuc...@cox.net; meteoritem...@gmail.com; j...@cabassi.net; rickm...@earthlink.net; MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, Jun 27, 2011 7:58 am Subject: A better link.. Re: [meteorite-list] Tile Glows http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/technology/sts-newsref/sts_sys.html The HRSI tiles are made of a low-density, high-purity silica 99.8-percent amorphous fiber (fibers derived from common sand, 1 to 2 mils thick) insulation that is made rigid by ceramic bonding. Because 90 percent of the tile is void and the remaining 10 percent is material, the tile weighs approximately 9 pounds per cubic foot. A slurry containing fibers mixed with water is frame-cast to form soft, porous blocks to which a collodial silica binder solution is added. When it is sintered, a rigid block is produced that is cut into quarters and then machined to the precise dimensions required for individual tiles. HRSI tiles vary in thickness from 1 inch to 5 inches. The variable thickness is determined by the heat load encountered during entry. Generally, the HRSI tiles are thicker at the forward areas of the orbiter and thinner toward the aft end. Except for closeout areas, theHRSI tiles are nominally 6- by 6-inch squares. The HRSI tiles vary in sizes and shapes in the closeout areas on the orbiter. The HRSI tiles withstand on-orbit cold soak conditions, repeated heating and cooling thermal shock and extreme acoustic environments (165 decibels) at launch. For example, an HRSI tile taken from a 2,300 F oven can be immersed in cold water without damage. Surface heat dissipates so quickly that an uncoated tile can be held by its edges with an ungloved hand seconds after removal from the oven while its interior still glows red. The HRSI tiles are coated on the top and sides with a mixture of powdered tetrasilicide and borosilicate glass with a liquid carrier. This material is sprayed on the tile to coating thicknesses of 16 to 18 mils. The coated tiles then are placed in an oven and heated to a temperature of 2,300 F. This results in a black, waterproof glossy coating that has a surface emittance of 0.85 and a solar absorptance of about 0.85. After the ceramic coating heating process, the remaining silica fibers are treated with a silicon resin to provide bulk waterproofing. Note that the tiles cannot withstand airframe load deformation; therefore, stress isolation is necessary between the tiles and the orbiter structure. This isolation is provided by a strain isolation pad. SIPs isolate the tiles from the orbiter's structural deflections, expansions and acoustic excitation, thereby preventing stress failure in the tiles. The SIPs are thermal isolators made of Nomex felt material supplied in thicknesses of 0.090, 0.115 or 0.160 inch. SIPs are bonded to the tiles, and the SIP and tile assembly is bonded to the orbiterstructure by an RTV process. Nomex felt is a basic aramid fiber. The fibers are 2 deniers in fineness, 3 inches long and crimped. They are loaded into a carding machine that untangles the clumps of fibers and combs them to make a tenuous mass of lengthwise-oriented, relatively parallel fibers called a web. The cross-lapped web is fed into a loom, where it is lightly needled into a batt. Generally, two such batts are placed face-to-face and needled together to form felt. The felt then is subjected to a multineedle pass process until the desired strength is reached. The needled felt is calendered to stabilize at a thickness of 0.16 inch to 0.40 inch by passing through heated rollers at selected pressures. The calendered material is heat-set at approximately 500 F to thermally stabilize the felt. The RTV silicon adhesive is applied to the orbiter surface in a layer approximately 0.008 inch thick. The very thin bond line reduces weight and minimizes
Re: [meteorite-list] Identification of 2 historical meteorites from S America
Arnaud, According to Bob Haag's Field Guide Of Meteorites in both the 10th and 12th editions Bob lists the number 1 meteorite as Atacama, North Chile and says it is a Hexaheddrite. Based on this info and Bob's vast amount of experience. If I wanted a piece of Atacama , I would be looking for a piece of North Chile. And it looks like the pictures you show as well. Carl Meteoritemax -- Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. zelimir.gabel...@uha.fr wrote: Hi Arnaud, Atacama is the current synonym of Imilac (London NHM Catalog- Grady et al). See: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=12025 Look at the end of the writeup for all other synonyms of Imilac. Perou is not mentioned...(see below) Note that Copiapo is another meteorite having the same synonym Atacama. See, e.g.: G. Watson, 1938: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1077155/pdf/pnas01800-0010.pdf However, Copiapo is an IAB iron (silicated) and its recognized synonym is rather Atacama Desert or Desert of Atacama (Grady, op. cit.). Also, Copiapo (20 kg chunk) was discovered in 1863 (thus after 1842 but before 1866) For other Imilac synonym possibilities and variants, see: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php On your picture 1, the three iron samples as shown neither resemble a pallasite in general nor imilac in particular. But you should better know, by perhaps better examining these specimans and/or searching for some olivine remanents. Now against Imilac is the analysis repoprted by Wasson (THE world iron meteorite specialist): Fe: 90%; Ni: 9.9%; Ga: 21.1 ppm; Ge: 46 ppm and Ir: 0.071 ppm (and NO chromium mentioned) which is definitely different from the analysis you are mentioning (Turner) Regarding Perou, this name was never reported for Imilac, though the 3 pictures you show in link 2 are by all means Imilac (very typical!). I tried to find out a meteorite having as synonym Perou (or Pérou, or Peru...) but failed (would need more time and patience) In conclusion, after this 15-20 min searching the literature I have here on hand (Mulhouse), it seems that the Perou (link 2) is most probably Imilac (but only from visual comparison) while the Atacama (link 1), although official synonym of Imilac, neither corresponds from pics comparison (though your pics are not fully clear as prints), nor regarding its Ni analysis I hope this helps to promote to some extent the schmilblick Bonne chance Zelimir (Note: after writing this, I noticed a few other replies. Seems link N°2 is well confirmed as Imilac. However, part of the mystery remains ragarding samples from link 1 ) r...@free.fr a écrit : Hi List, I've been following the list for about a year now and this is my first post. I must say I've learned a lot from you even, sometimes, in the middle of an heated discussion. Meteorites definitely bring a lot of passions. I'm a geologist, French and I live in Toulouse, a busy city of SW France -Airbus main factory and office are here- but where people know how to relax. Toulouse is also where the oldest western academy was founded, the Academy of the Floral Games or College of the Happy Science, in 1323! I'm pursuing some historical researches about meteorites. I've collaborated off-list with Mark Grossman (hello Mark!) on several issues -check his meteorite manuscripts blog if you haven't already. Aside from my main study, that I'll present later, I'm doing an history-focused catalogue of the meteorites that are kept in Toulouse in 2 collections, University and Museum. The Natural History Museum is a small but nice one and was entirely renovated a few years ago. The meteorite collection is also small but we have here about a half kg of Orgueil (located about 35 km N of Toulouse), two fist-sized Ausson samples and the unique and 99% complete 14 kg stone of Saint Sauveur (EH5) that fell a few days before the onset of WW1, in 1914, 15 km N of Toulouse: http://www.museum.toulouse.fr/explorer_3/les_collections_20/roches_mineraux_80/meteorites_424/chondrite_enstatite_426/index.html?lang=fr We have some trouble to identify 2 meteorites from the Museum, that's why I'm calling for help. Many of you have seen lots of meteorites and you may specifically recognize these stones before or have information that may lead to their identification. I give below all the information I have (be careful, some may be erroneous) and links to pictures. #1: so called Atacama, sometimes with Perou attached 3 irons, 8,5+1,7+0,5 g acquired by the Museum possibly before 1842, certainly before 1866 Fragment of the mass kept in Vienna.
[meteorite-list] Cosmic Ray Penetration
Hi all, I normally don't ask about these things because I can look it up onlin. However, I'm writing an article, am in a time crunch, and need a bit of quick help here finding the appropriate information. I need to know how deeply cosmic rays penetrate into the body of any given meteoroid, asteroid or comet. And of course the relationship to composition and what effect composition has on the penetration depth. Do different types of asteroid absorb cosmic rays at different rates? etc... Thanks for any help on this you guys can provide. Regards, Eric __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Asteroid 2011MD Bye-bye
Whoops! Actually, I was the late one. The orbital elements for 2011 MD were updated several days ago. http://www.projectpluto.com/2011md.htm The closest approach was re-calculated for not 13:30 UTC but 17:00 UTC and the point of closest approach projected on the Earth shifted by some 50 degrees... I missed the update and so did at least one news outlet (The Mail Telegraph, UK) who reported it late. The shame of it -- to do no better than a newspaper! Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Matson, Robert D. robert.d.mat...@saic.com To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 8:59 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Asteroid 2011MD Bye-bye Hi All, I'm sure Sterling is well aware of this, but it's worth pointing out to the masses that 2011 MD wasn't late. People are simply guilty of blindly believing their favorite piece of software, apparently ignorant of the limitations of non-integrating propagation. When an asteroid is well within the sphere of influence of the earth, it is hardly appropriate to use a program that's based on Kepler's two-body equations... --Rob -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Sterling K. Webb Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 6:37 PM To: Meteorite List Subject: [meteorite-list] Asteroid 2011MD Bye-bye Video of 2011MD against background stars: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUjbA21jjsc The pass was at 7600 miles (instead of the predicted 7500 miles) and it was 3.5 hours late from the predicted time. Mr. Newton could not be reached for comment. Sterling K. Webb __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Cosmic Ray Penetration
Hello Eric, First and most importantly, I would not talk about a cosmic ray being absorbed and leave the term absorbed for energy in its many form. Keep in mind so called 'cosmic rays' are really nano-meteoroids that the NOMCOM hasn't gotten around to classifying ;-): particles, ions, and for practical purposes just think of Speedy Gonzalez protons and other speedsters flying around from random cosmic or high power solar events. That said you want to know how far a proton (or other small particle) will penetrate before its kinetic energy is absorbed by the collision and whether that mean penetration depth varies depending on the target substrate. I would expect this to depend on the volume fraction of the atoms in the substrate, much like asking how far you penetrate a forest you accidentally ski into... Is there a difference between metallic meteorites vs. stony meteorites? Or metallic meteorites? I would expect there is - and I would estimate that based on the packing factors of the usually heterogeneous matrix they smash into. Taking a hint from the crystallographers, atomic packing is in the range of 33% occupied space to 74% occupied space. So I would estimate that to be the order of magnitude of the differences - as a first approximation for a sly proton slipping through. Perhaps it would be better to use cross sectional area than volume (a planar packing fraction) so take it with a grain of salt. In any case the extreme case is a bit over double and I would expect that to be in the ballpark without overanalyzing this. Not over analyzing this because you also have assumptions at work that the cosmic ray particle stream is estimated based on a standard (I believe - long time since I thought about this).. And finally, throwing up the hands, the normally quoted mean penetration distance is a few meters! So, you can be confident that by 10-20 meters there's nothing much and in 0-3 meters you are bombarding throughout the body. The reason we have no activity on earth is not because spallation in the atmosphere, plus a major contribution to deflection deflection by the Earth's magnetic field. Good luck, sorry no time to refresh more on this, but I hope that helps. The attempt to explain penetration is something I pulled out of my ear just now, but I think it's the right concept.. Doug -Original Message- From: Eric Wichman e...@meteoritesusa.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, Jun 27, 2011 6:46 pm Subject: [meteorite-list] Cosmic Ray Penetration Hi all, I normally don't ask about these things because I can look it up onlin. However, I'm writing an article, am in a time crunch, and need a bit of quick help here finding the appropriate information. I need to know how deeply cosmic rays penetrate into the body of any given meteoroid, asteroid or comet. And of course the relationship to composition and what effect composition has on the penetration depth. Do different types of asteroid absorb cosmic rays at different rates? etc... Thanks for any help on this you guys can provide. Regards, Eric __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
