date:20130216

Hi Bjorn,

Okay, let's try this from a solar perspective since it seems you don't like
the geocentric perspective. 2012 DA14 is an Amor that has its aphelion
at just under 1 a.u., and its perihelion at about 0.83 a.u. At the time of
its encounter with earth, it's longitude of ascending node was almost
exactly at the earth's solar longitude.  Because their velocities around
the sun are very close to one another, nearly all of the relative velocity
between the two of them is in a direction perpendicular to earth's
orbital plane, owing to 2012 DA14's 11.6-degree inclination. It's like
two jets flying in the same direction at about the same speed, but
one of them is in level flight, and the other is rapidly gaining altitude
(from below the other jet).

So let's pretend that instead of 2012 DA14 being alone, it has a bunch
of companions spread out ahead of it in orbit, behind it, and perhaps
even at slightly different radial distances from the sun. They're still
all going at very nearly the same velocity around the sun, in very
nearly the same orbital plane. What I believe you are suggesting is
that perhaps there was an object leading 2012 DA14 by some number
of hours and that instead of crossing the earth's orbital plane on the
side opposite the sun (as 2012 DA14) did, it crossed on the sunrise
terminator side of the earth -- just ahead of the earth -- and that
the earth then caught up to it from behind (and of course
gravitationally pulled it in as well). So far so good. But here's the
problem:  that pesky 11.6 degree inclination. Just as with 2012 DA14's
relative velocity, your candidate object has nearly all of its relative
velocity in a direction fairly closely aligned with earth's pole. As
such, any resulting bolide in the northern hemisphere would have
to be moving quite close to a south-to-north trajectory, and we
know that the Russian bolide did not do this. That's why I keep
mentioning the 90-degree angle problem: how do you get your
meteoroid to do a big right turn and head away from the sun
so that it can have an east-to-west motion over Russia?

--Rob

-Original Message-
From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Bjorn Sorheim
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 5:53 PM
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] 2012 DA14 and the Russian meteor: a strong link

Hello List,
I can't see in any way how your statements can be true, and I wonder
how anyone can. I would assume NASA has way more educated
professionals in this than you. Why do they say: 'Preliminary information 
indicates ---
not related'? They would have been able to refute a strike for all areas of 
Russia according
to your reasoning.

When an asteroid having a shallow inclination of 10 deg to the ecliptical 
plane,
that is Earth's orbital plane, and a fragment originating from this, 
travelling parallell
to this, as I assume the meteorid/asteroid that came down near Chelyabinsk
did, it will easily hit ANY part of Earth provided it hits when that part 
of Earth is
facing towards it.
Giving a large number of objects in a swarm around/forwards/backwards of 
it, these
fragments from asteroid 2012DA14 will get to ground on all parts of the 
Earth as the Earth
rotates through the day and night, that should be obvious.

On a psychological note, I observe that none of you have countered any 
given sentence I
have written on this russian meteor.
You just manically keep reiterating that they are not related. I can only sea
anxiety behind this.

Sorry, Marco, but you are flatly wrong here. Your statement is absurd.
Only asteroids with very high inclination of 70-90 degree would behave the 
way you say here.
We are talking 10 degrees in this case, and your statements are ridiculous 
and shocking.
You seem to believe that the orbit of 2012DA14 is retrograde, which of 
course it is not.

So please, if you can prove me wrong on any sentence or statement I have 
written, do it.
But please, Marco, Rob and Chris do it also internally to the other members 
of your
internal group, and don't behave like a pack of wolves...

I hope also when someone are putting forwards a clearly wrong statement,
me or anyone else are allowed to denounce that statement from the person. I 
hope we can do so,
also with a degree of engagement and temperament. I say this also to the 
other readers of this
discussion, as the temperament here may surprise you. Right or wrong 
staements or
assumptions make a lot of difference in this case.

Bjørn Sørheim


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Re: [meteorite-list] Met Bulletin Update - EL's and OC's

2013-02-16 Thread Mendy Ouzillou

Because as I read it the data for both specimens are the same within the
margin of error and the two specimens should share one number.

M

-Original Message-
From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Grossman
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 7:24 PM
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Met Bulletin Update - EL's and OC's

Why is this a problem? -jeff

On 2/16/2013 9:46 PM, Mendy Ouzillou wrote:
 Why are two consecutive numbers assigned to the same group of stones.
EL6, two stones and same classifiers.  I don't get it ...

 Mendy Ouzillou

 On Feb 16, 2013, at 10:20 AM, Galactic Stone  Ironworks
meteoritem...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi Bulletin Watchers,

 There are a handful of new approvals - all are NWA meteorites.

 Link -
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?sea=sfor=namesants=falls=vali
ds=stype=containslrec=50map=gebrowse=country=Allsrt=namecateg=Allmbl
ist=Allrect=phot=snew=1pnt=Normal%20tabledr=page=0

 Best regards,

 MikeG


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Re: [meteorite-list] Boom 28 secs after Russian meteor passes overhead - oops 98 secs!

A list member kindly pointed out that there was more than a few seconds
deleted from this video.  I didn't look at the minutes figure.

The meteor is overhead at 43:06 and the shockwave arrives at 44.34.

So this puts the altitude about three times the 8.7km estimated by Bob
Matson.  From:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound#Altitude_variation_and_implications_for_atmospheric_acoustics

  http://en.wikipedia.org
/wiki/File:Comparison_US_standard_atmosphere_1962.svg

the speed of sound varies somewhat.  Since this is a large positive
pressure wave, maybe it would travel somewhat faster than a small
pressure wave at these higher altitudes.  Sticking with the 310
metre/sec guesstimate of Bob Matson, 98 seconds gives us 30.4 km.

  - Robin



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Re: [meteorite-list] Boom 28 secs after Russian meteor passes overhead - oops^8 88 secs!

88 seconds . . .

From:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound#Altitude_variation_and_implications_for_atmospheric_acoustics


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Comparison_US_standard_atmosphere_1962.svg

Sticking with the 310 metre/sec guesstimate of Bob Matson, 88 seconds
gives us 27.3 km.

   - Robin

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Re: [meteorite-list] Chelyabinsk: of contrails, bollides and IR

2013-02-16 Thread Don Merchant

I haven't heard officially if anything of this meteorite was ever recovered. 
Wondering if this meteorite completely evaporated during its explosive entry 
much like the Tunguska event. Divers did check the lake and found nothing 
but were they scientist divers, Govt. assigned divers, or ametauer divers 
not knowing how and what to look for. For such a destructive and media 
covered event nothing I heard has been officially found but I could be wrong


Sincerely
Don Merchant
Founder-Cosmic Treasures Celestial Wonders
www.ctreasurescwonders.com
IMCA #0960
- Original Message - 
From: E.P. Grondine epgrond...@yahoo.com

To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Chelyabinsk: of contrails, bollides and IR



Hello everyone -

I got to watch the Russian videos before all the pop tunes and colorful 
Russian expressions were removed. The sanitized compilations are simply 
not as good. I would have preferred subtitles being added to them instead.


One of the interesting things is that releases of binding forces, the 
bollides, or implosions have previously been estimated to occur around 5 
kilometers in altitude. If I am viewing the entry contrail in this case 
correctly, it looks like this bollide went off around 8 kilometers in 
altitude, indicating a pretty friable small impactor.


Given the slow velocities of the shattered glass pieces, what reached the 
ground was pretty small. You can be sure that after much delicate dancing, 
data will come out and analyzed by the specialists.


In the meantime, infra-red spread estimates from the public videos may end 
up providing a first order estimate as to the magnitude of the bollide.


Another interesting thing is that it has generally been assumed that 
almost all the momentum was converted into energy in the bollide, but in 
this case we can see contrails going off after the main bollide event.


Xinhuanet is reporting Russian online sales:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2013-02/16/c_124351175.htm

For you folks out there in the field, its -7, so be nice to people; you 
might need their help to stay alive. This area has high tech industries, 
so don't try to pull any stupid bs stunts either. Remember, the reputation 
of all meteorite hunters depend on everyone else's actions, so please 
don't p*ss in the soup.


In closing, if this was a CC, and if larger pieces did continue onward, 
then it has implications for searching for fragments from other CC 
bollides, such as Tunguska.


Finally, I saw one video where a very young lady was having a small piece 
of glass removed from her cheek; if she done not get at least a crumb of 
this one, shame on all of you.


Good hunting, all
E.P.








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Re: [meteorite-list] Chelyabinsk: of contrails, bollides and IR

Meteoroids don't implode, they explode. That occurs at whatever point 
the stress they experience from the ram pressure on their forward face 
exceeds their material strength. There is nothing special about a height 
of 5 km; disruption can occur anywhere from 100 km high to the ground. 
In the vast majority of cases, the height of disruption is above 30 km, 
but the actual point depends on the total mass, composition, and 
structure of the meteoroid.


Chris

***
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

On 2/16/2013 8:27 PM, E.P. Grondine wrote:

Hello everyone -

I got to watch the Russian videos before all the pop tunes and colorful Russian 
expressions were removed. The sanitized compilations are simply not as good. I 
would have preferred subtitles being added to them instead.

One of the interesting things is that releases of binding forces, the bollides, or 
implosions have previously been estimated to occur around 5 kilometers in 
altitude. If I am viewing the entry contrail in this case correctly, it looks like this 
bollide went off around 8 kilometers in altitude, indicating a pretty friable small 
impactor.

Given the slow velocities of the shattered glass pieces, what reached the 
ground was pretty small. You can be sure that after much delicate dancing, data 
will come out and analyzed by the specialists.

In the meantime, infra-red spread estimates from the public videos may end up 
providing a first order estimate as to the magnitude of the bollide.

Another interesting thing is that it has generally been assumed that almost all 
the momentum was converted into energy in the bollide, but in this case we can 
see contrails going off after the main bollide event.

Xinhuanet is reporting Russian online sales:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2013-02/16/c_124351175.htm

For you folks out there in the field, its -7, so be nice to people; you might 
need their help to stay alive. This area has high tech industries, so don't try 
to pull any stupid bs stunts either. Remember, the reputation of all meteorite 
hunters depend on everyone else's actions, so please don't p*ss in the soup.

In closing, if this was a CC, and if larger pieces did continue onward, then it 
has implications for searching for fragments from other CC bollides, such as 
Tunguska.

Finally, I saw one video where a very young lady was having a small piece of 
glass removed from her cheek; if she done not get at least a crumb of this one, 
shame on all of you.

Good hunting, all
E.P.


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Re: [meteorite-list] 2012 DA14 and the Russian meteor: a strong link

I'm surprised you're interested in meteorites, since you clearly lack 
even the most basic understanding of meteor radiants- and clearly are 
unwilling to learn from people who actually know something.


Chris

***
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

On 2/16/2013 6:52 PM, Bjorn Sorheim wrote:

Hello List,
I can't see in any way how your statements can be true, and I wonder
how anyone can. I would assume NASA has way more educated
professionals in this than you. Why do they say: 'Preliminary
information indicates ---
not related'? They would have been able to refute a strike for all areas
of Russia according
to your reasoning.

When an asteroid having a shallow inclination of 10 deg to the
ecliptical plane,
that is Earth's orbital plane, and a fragment originating from this,
travelling parallell
to this, as I assume the meteorid/asteroid that came down near Chelyabinsk
did, it will easily hit ANY part of Earth provided it hits when that
part of Earth is
facing towards it.
Giving a large number of objects in a swarm around/forwards/backwards of
it, these
fragments from asteroid 2012DA14 will get to ground on all parts of the
Earth as the Earth
rotates through the day and night, that should be obvious.

On a psychological note, I observe that none of you have countered any
given sentence I
have written on this russian meteor.
You just manically keep reiterating that they are not related. I can
only sea
anxiety behind this.

Sorry, Marco, but you are flatly wrong here. Your statement is absurd.
Only asteroids with very high inclination of 70-90 degree would behave
the way you say here.
We are talking 10 degrees in this case, and your statements are
ridiculous and shocking.
You seem to believe that the orbit of 2012DA14 is retrograde, which of
course it is not.

So please, if you can prove me wrong on any sentence or statement I have
written, do it.
But please, Marco, Rob and Chris do it also internally to the other
members of your
internal group, and don't behave like a pack of wolves...

I hope also when someone are putting forwards a clearly wrong statement,
me or anyone else are allowed to denounce that statement from the
person. I hope we can do so,
also with a degree of engagement and temperament. I say this also to the
other readers of this
discussion, as the temperament here may surprise you. Right or wrong
staements or
assumptions make a lot of difference in this case.

Bjørn Sørheim


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Re: [meteorite-list] Boom 28 secs after Russian meteor passes overhead - oops^8 88 secs!

Hi Robin,

Okay -- a minute and 28 seconds is quite a bit more normal.
Now we're talking about an altitude between 25 and 30 km.
With this higher altitude, the average temperature drops so
the average speed of sound will also. Call it around 305 m/sec.
That puts the range at just under 27 km, so altitude might
have been as low as 26 km at closest approach to Korkino.
At that altitude, a large mass might continue more than
100 km further downrange if the entry angle was as shallow
as 10 degrees.

--Rob

-Original Message-
From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com on behalf of Robin Whittle
Sent: Sat 2/16/2013 8:54 PM
To: 'METEORITE LIST'
Cc: Rob Matson
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Boom 28 secs after Russian meteor passes overhead
- oops 98 secs!
 
A list member kindly pointed out that there was more than a few seconds
deleted from this video.  I didn't look at the minutes figure.

The meteor is overhead at 43:06 and the shockwave arrives at 44.34.

So this puts the altitude about three times the 8.7km estimated by Bob
Matson.  From:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound#Altitude_variation_and_implications_
for_atmospheric_acoustics

  http://en.wikipedia.org
/wiki/File:Comparison_US_standard_atmosphere_1962.svg

the speed of sound varies somewhat.  Since this is a large positive
pressure wave, maybe it would travel somewhat faster than a small
pressure wave at these higher altitudes.  Sticking with the 310
metre/sec guesstimate of Bob Matson, 98 seconds gives us 30.4 km.

  - Robin


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Re: [meteorite-list] Russian meteor composition

2013-02-16 Thread E

Could the pink red colour be a reflection of the sun? It usually happens during 
sunrise/sunset when airplane contrails turn pink and red.

On 17 Feb, 2013, at 7:25, Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu 
wrote:

 Hi Rob et al,
 
 I've spent several hours searching for different video footage of the 
 fireball, the smoke trail, the hole in the ice, etc.
 
 First, can anyone point me to any scientific papers which attempt
 to correlate:
 a) the color of the smoky tail, and/or
 b) the color of the fireball
 with the type of meteorite?
 If so, I'd appreciate the reference(s).
 
 It always seemed to me that the smoke was so white as to resemble
 condensed water vapor than any burnt material.  At a couple of 
 intervals, some pink or orange tint appeared, but the trail was almost
 purely white.  That suggests to me that the meteoroid was largely
 ice, but I am no expert.
 
 There are several videos zoomed in of the fireball itself (unless they 
 are fakes).  The color was orange-red, but perhaps if someone could
 access the camera(s) taking the pictures one might get a clearer assessment
 of the emitted spectrum.  
 
 One thing that was notable from the fireball and the smoke cloud
 photos was that the object appeared to be quite flat and stable, the
 flames apparent at the two sides, with no flames in between.  The 
 smoke cloud seems to confirm this.
 
 I don't think the symmetrically bifurcated incandescence and tail could
 have been produced by an object broken in two.  It looks like one 
 object burning at both ends.  Perhaps some experts in flight dynamics
 could tell us under what conditions we could expect that behavior.
 Any pointers to literature on the bifurcated entry would also be
 appreciated.
 
 Cheers,
 Nick
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[meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day

2013-02-16 Thread valparint

Today's Meteorite Picture of the Day: Santa Rosa

Contributed by: Guy Heinen

http://www.tucsonmeteorites.com/mpod.asp
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Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 related, yes I think so...



I would think there would be more objects trailing a (small) asteroid, yes.
But what forces releases a smaller fragment from an asteroid/meteoroide?
Rotation, tension in the rock, gas release underneath? Some of these forces 
could

be strong and send them forwards with some speed.
I'm not shure what quantitive effect of solar wind etc.would have in the 
long run, but yes
I would think asteroids in some ways resemble the situation you have with 
comets, but the material
in the latter is of course much lighter, and a greater effect of  the solar 
wind is felt.
It's a bit beyond me, and it's very hard to observe debris clouds around 
such small objects.


Bjørn Sørheim

Bjorne just a quick thought, wouldn't this impact been after the fact 
given the passage of the NEO 2012DA14 instead of before if the events were 
related?


Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 15, 2013, at 11:35 PM, Bjorn Sorheim astro...@online.no wrote:


 Two completely different trajectories??
 What the heck are you talking about?
 They are quite similar. It would not at this point say they are identical.
 In WHAT way are they _completely different_, elaborate please.
 And don't be so d** arrogant, for christ sake.
 I could mention that the foremost celest mechanican in my country says they
 are strangly similar, and he has been working for NASA and the 
Voyagers, and he has

 an asteroid named after him.

 Bjørn Sørheim


 It is 100% certain that the two bodies are unrelated, given the physical
 impossibility of a single object producing the two completely different
 trajectories involved. I'd suggest you study orbital dynamics before
 making scientifically unsound suggestions.

 NASA has made no final verdict. It's initial analysis is no different
 than what dozens of other meteor experts have concluded.

 Chris

 ***
 Chris L Peterson
 Cloudbait Observatory

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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day

2013-02-16 Thread almitt2


Greetings,

Roving Reporter missed the meteor that landed near Blaine's room.

--AL

Quoting valpar...@aol.com:


Today's Meteorite Picture of the Day: New Fall !!

Contributed by: Roving Reporter

http://www.tucsonmeteorites.com/mpod.asp
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Re: [meteorite-list] Interactive map of all known meteorites (Guardian data blog)

2013-02-16 Thread Martin Altmann

And Kloster Schäftlarn has wrong coordinates,
it lies a little to the South of Munich.


-

A couple problems.

I suppose you mean the Meteoritical Society, not the Meteorological Society,
since we are talking about meteorites not weather.
Also, there should be a red dot in Alsace, eastern France, where the
Ensisheim meteorite fell in 1492.

Besides that, this map is a great idea.


Anne M. Black
www.IMPACTIKA.com
impact...@aol.com


-Original Message-
From: Rich Atkinson atkins...@gmail.com
To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Fri, Feb 15, 2013 10:23 pm
Subject: [meteorite-list] Interactive map of all known meteorites (Guardian
data blog)


Every meteorite fall on earth mapped

Or at least those we know about. And where are the known meteorite
landing places on earth? These impact zones show where scientists have
found meteorites, or the impact craters of meteorites, some dating
back as far as the year 2,300BC. The data is from the US
Meteorological Society and doesn't show those places where meteorites
may have fallen but not been discovered


http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2013/feb/15/meteorite-fa
ll-map

rich
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Re: [meteorite-list] Trajectory of Chelyabinsk meteors

Following more links from the Wikipedia article:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Russian_meteor_event

leads to an analysis of the trajectory of the meteor and how it differs
from that of 2012 DA14:

  http://kaira.sgo.fi/2013/02/are-2012-da14-and-chelyabinsk-meteor.html

From a comment at this site, an article and graphic from The Telegraph
in the UK:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/9873053/Graphic-Russian-meteor-impact-explained.html

showing the location of the zinc factory.  According to the Russian
Academy of Sciences the meteorite was very strong and probably made of
iron..



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/9873752/Russian-meteor-visits-shock-and-awe-on-Chelyabinsk.html

 A warehouse wall at a zinc factory in the industrial city
 collapsed from the force of the shock wave and almost 300
 buildings had their windows blown out.

 - Robin

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Re: [meteorite-list] Interactive map of all known meteorites (Guardian data blog)

2013-02-16 Thread Rich Atkinson

Anne,
Not sure what the problem is. I just cut and pasted the description
from the Guardian web page so that people can decide if they want to
follow the link or not.

Am sure they'd appreciate your feedback.


On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 4:36 PM, Anne Black impact...@aol.com wrote:
 A couple problems.

 I suppose you mean the Meteoritical Society, not the Meteorological Society,
 since we are talking about meteorites not weather.
 Also, there should be a red dot in Alsace, eastern France, where the
 Ensisheim meteorite fell in 1492.

 Besides that, this map is a great idea.


 Anne M. Black
 www.IMPACTIKA.com
 impact...@aol.com



 -Original Message-
 From: Rich Atkinson atkins...@gmail.com
 To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Fri, Feb 15, 2013 10:23 pm
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Interactive map of all known meteorites (Guardian
 data blog)


 Every meteorite fall on earth mapped

 Or at least those we know about. And where are the known meteorite
 landing places on earth? These impact zones show where scientists have
 found meteorites, or the impact craters of meteorites, some dating
 back as far as the year 2,300BC. The data is from the US
 Meteorological Society and doesn't show those places where meteorites
 may have fallen but not been discovered


 http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2013/feb/15/meteorite-fall-map

 rich
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[meteorite-list] Russian missile

2013-02-16 Thread noakes

What's wrong with this picture. Sonic booms (multiple) , close to earth. 
Incandescing (multiple). Fits a manmade object-not a meteorite. Nels

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[meteorite-list] test

2013-02-16 Thread noakes



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Re: [meteorite-list] Interactive map of all known meteorites (Guardian data blog)

And the Libyan Desert Glass is in the wrong place!  ;)



On 2/16/13, Rich Atkinson atkins...@gmail.com wrote:
 Anne,
 Not sure what the problem is. I just cut and pasted the description
 from the Guardian web page so that people can decide if they want to
 follow the link or not.

 Am sure they'd appreciate your feedback.


 On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 4:36 PM, Anne Black impact...@aol.com wrote:
 A couple problems.

 I suppose you mean the Meteoritical Society, not the Meteorological
 Society,
 since we are talking about meteorites not weather.
 Also, there should be a red dot in Alsace, eastern France, where the
 Ensisheim meteorite fell in 1492.

 Besides that, this map is a great idea.


 Anne M. Black
 www.IMPACTIKA.com
 impact...@aol.com



 -Original Message-
 From: Rich Atkinson atkins...@gmail.com
 To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Fri, Feb 15, 2013 10:23 pm
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Interactive map of all known meteorites
 (Guardian
 data blog)


 Every meteorite fall on earth mapped

 Or at least those we know about. And where are the known meteorite
 landing places on earth? These impact zones show where scientists have
 found meteorites, or the impact craters of meteorites, some dating
 back as far as the year 2,300BC. The data is from the US
 Meteorological Society and doesn't show those places where meteorites
 may have fallen but not been discovered


 http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2013/feb/15/meteorite-fall-map

 rich
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Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 related, yes I think so...

2013-02-16 Thread Prof. Zelimir Gabelica Université de Haute Alsace ENSCMu,

I'm talking about two different trajectories. Different inclinations, 
different semimajor axes, (very) different eccentricities, (very) 
different geocentric velocities. There is no plausible mechanism for 
ending up with two pieces of the same body in such radically different 
orbits- it would require first separating them, and then subjecting each 
to a different history of three-body interactions.


If the foremost celestial mechanics expert in your country says the 
two are similar, he is not competent. I don't notice him speaking out.


Chris

***
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

On 2/15/2013 11:35 PM, Bjorn Sorheim wrote:


Two completely different trajectories??
What the heck are you talking about?
They are quite similar. It would not at this point say they are identical.
In WHAT way are they _completely different_, elaborate please.
And don't be so d** arrogant, for christ sake.
I could mention that the foremost celest mechanican in my country says they
are strangly similar, and he has been working for NASA and the Voyagers,
and he has
an asteroid named after him.

Bjørn Sørheim


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[meteorite-list] Interactive map for Ensisheim fall


Hi Anne, Rich, all,

Anne, but there IS a nice red spot in the middle of Ensisheim city!
Just enlarge the map by rolloing the mouse! (like on Google Map).

And you bet, I did so, regarding Ensisheim meteorite.
And to my surprise, the spot (at high magnification) is neither  
situated in the Regency palace (logical) but nor along the road where  
there is a well known plaque (about 2 km South from downtown Ensi).


No, it is located exactly a few hundred meters West from our famous  
Le Boeuf Rouge restaurant, not at all far from the new (provisional  
for 2013) show location. In a small park, near the river shore.


Intriguing
I definitely must go there again for a rapid screeninghey, one  
never knows if, among all these fragments reported to have been broken  
by paesants after the fall, some could have survived...?


I keep you informed.
Otherwise, you know what to do after your 2 full days at the show...

Best wishes,

Zelimir
--
Prof. Zelimir Gabelica
Université de Haute Alsace
ENSCMu, Lab. LPI-GSEC,
3, Rue A. Werner,
F-68093 Mulhouse Cedex, France
Tel: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 94


Rich Atkinson atkins...@gmail.com a écrit :


Anne,
Not sure what the problem is. I just cut and pasted the description
from the Guardian web page so that people can decide if they want to
follow the link or not.

Am sure they'd appreciate your feedback.


On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 4:36 PM, Anne Black impact...@aol.com wrote:

A couple problems.

I suppose you mean the Meteoritical Society, not the Meteorological Society,
since we are talking about meteorites not weather.
Also, there should be a red dot in Alsace, eastern France, where the
Ensisheim meteorite fell in 1492.

Besides that, this map is a great idea.


Anne M. Black
www.IMPACTIKA.com
impact...@aol.com



-Original Message-
From: Rich Atkinson atkins...@gmail.com
To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Fri, Feb 15, 2013 10:23 pm
Subject: [meteorite-list] Interactive map of all known meteorites (Guardian
data blog)


Every meteorite fall on earth mapped

Or at least those we know about. And where are the known meteorite
landing places on earth? These impact zones show where scientists have
found meteorites, or the impact craters of meteorites, some dating
back as far as the year 2,300BC. The data is from the US
Meteorological Society and doesn't show those places where meteorites
may have fallen but not been discovered


http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2013/feb/15/meteorite-fall-map

rich
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Re: [meteorite-list] Russian missile

My goodness. What is it about a meteor that brings so many crazies out 
of the woodwork?


Chris

***
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

On 2/16/2013 6:41 AM, noakes wrote:

What's wrong with this picture. Sonic booms (multiple) , close to earth.
Incandescing (multiple). Fits a manmade object-not a meteorite. Nels


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Re: [meteorite-list] Russian missile

Two Words - Wealth and Fame.

Apparently, meteorites are the key to both, according to television
and government.  ;)

Best regards,

MikeG
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On 2/16/13, Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu wrote:
 My goodness. What is it about a meteor that brings so many crazies out
 of the woodwork?

 Chris

 ***
 Chris L Peterson
 Cloudbait Observatory
 http://www.cloudbait.com

 On 2/16/2013 6:41 AM, noakes wrote:
 What's wrong with this picture. Sonic booms (multiple) , close to earth.
 Incandescing (multiple). Fits a manmade object-not a meteorite. Nels

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[meteorite-list] Recent Articles About Chelyabinsk Airburst

2013-02-16 Thread Paul H.

After meteor strike, Russian experts reflect by
Sergei L. Loiko Los Angeles Times, February 16, 2013
http://www.latimes.com/news/world/worldnow/la-wn-fg-chelyabinsk-meteor-lessons-20130216,0,4643856.story

Freezing Russians begin repairing windows 
shattered by fiery meteor blast CNN News, 
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/16/world/europe/russia-meteor-shower/

Russian meteor hit with force of 30 Hiroshima 
bombs, The Telegraph, February 16, 2013,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/9874662/Russian-meteor-hit-with-force-of-30-Hiroshima-bombs.html

Details on the meteor in Russia’s Ural Mountain 
region, by Brian Vastag, Washington Post, Feb. 15, 2013
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/02/15/live-updates-meteor-in-russias-ural-mountain-area/

Meteorites, One More Danger For Russian Drivers 
by Kurt Ernst, Motor Authority, February  15, 2013
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1082354_meteorites-one-more-danger-for-russian-drivers-video

Articles about meteorites in general

Meteorites in the New Yorker by Joshua 
Rothman, The New Yorker, February 15, 2013.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/backissues/2013/02/meteors-in-the-new-yorker.html

Thunderstone: What People Thought About 
Meteorites Before Modern Astronomy, by
Megan Garber, The Atlantic, February 15, 2013
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/02/thunderstone-what-people-thought-about-meteorites-before-modern-astronomy/273220/

Yours,

Paul H.
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[meteorite-list] Scientist Gets Research Money From Crowd Funding

2013-02-16 Thread Paul H.

Scientist Gets Research Donations From Crowd Funding
by Joe Palca, Morning Edition, NPR, February 14, 2013 
http://www.npr.org/2013/02/14/171975368/scientist-gets-research-donations-from-crowdfunding

Scientists Look To The Internet To Raise Research Funds
by Joe Palca, Morning Edition, NPR, February 15, 2013
http://www.npr.org/2013/02/15/172078619/scientists-look-to-the-internet-to-raise-research-funds

Yours,

Paul H.
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Re: [meteorite-list] Interactive map of all known meteorites (Guardian data blog)

2013-02-16 Thread Richard Montgomery

Far less important, but a fall nonethelessNovato is missing

- Original Message - 
From: Rich Atkinson atkins...@gmail.com

To: Anne Black impact...@aol.com
Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 4:04 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Interactive map of all known meteorites 
(Guardian data blog)

Anne,
Not sure what the problem is. I just cut and pasted the description
from the Guardian web page so that people can decide if they want to
follow the link or not.

Am sure they'd appreciate your feedback.

On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 4:36 PM, Anne Black impact...@aol.com wrote:

A couple problems.

I suppose you mean the Meteoritical Society, not the Meteorological 
Society,

since we are talking about meteorites not weather.
Also, there should be a red dot in Alsace, eastern France, where the
Ensisheim meteorite fell in 1492.

Besides that, this map is a great idea.

Anne M. Black
www.IMPACTIKA.com
impact...@aol.com

-Original Message-
From: Rich Atkinson atkins...@gmail.com
To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Fri, Feb 15, 2013 10:23 pm
Subject: [meteorite-list] Interactive map of all known meteorites 
(Guardian

data blog)

Every meteorite fall on earth mapped

Or at least those we know about. And where are the known meteorite
landing places on earth? These impact zones show where scientists have
found meteorites, or the impact craters of meteorites, some dating
back as far as the year 2,300BC. The data is from the US
Meteorological Society and doesn't show those places where meteorites
may have fallen but not been discovered

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2013/feb/15/meteorite-fall-map

rich
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[meteorite-list] EBay you gotta be kidding me Now their selling DIRT!!

2013-02-16 Thread Don Merchant

Hi List. Wow like fly's on sh#$. Like ants coming out of the wood work. 
Scammers and thieves.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ground-near-fall-meteorite-Russia-2013-Chelyabinks-asteroid-/261170537371?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3ccefa239b

or this.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Russia-2013-February-15-Chelyabinks-Black-sand-near-fall-meteorite-/261170629214?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3ccefb8a5e

Sincerely
Don Merchant
Founder-Cosmic Treasures Celestial Wonders
www.ctreasurescwonders.com
IMCA #0960 


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Re: [meteorite-list] EBay you gotta be kidding me Now their selling DIRT!!

Sales of all Russian meteorite dirt is hereby suspended until further notice.


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On 2/16/13, Don Merchant dmerc...@rochester.rr.com wrote:
 Hi List. Wow like fly's on sh#$. Like ants coming out of the wood work.
 Scammers and thieves.

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ground-near-fall-meteorite-Russia-2013-Chelyabinks-asteroid-/261170537371?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3ccefa239b

 or this.

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Russia-2013-February-15-Chelyabinks-Black-sand-near-fall-meteorite-/261170629214?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3ccefb8a5e

 Sincerely
 Don Merchant
 Founder-Cosmic Treasures Celestial Wonders
 www.ctreasurescwonders.com
 IMCA #0960

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[meteorite-list] Divers find no trace of meteorite in a frozen lake .

2013-02-16 Thread Don Merchant


http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/16/world/europe/russia-meteor-shower/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Sincerely
Don Merchant
Founder-Cosmic Treasures Celestial Wonders
www.ctreasurescwonders.com
IMCA #0960 


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Re: [meteorite-list] AD - First Chelyabinsk Offering!

Hi Dirk and List,

Re: the Chelyabinsk link I posted earlier :

I had to pull it down because some politically-correct types objected
to it, and I didn't want to court trouble with my webhost.  :(

Best regards,

MikeG
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On 2/16/13, drtanuki drtan...@yahoo.com wrote:
 404 error

 --- On Sun, 2/17/13, Galactic Stone  Ironworks meteoritem...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 From: Galactic Stone  Ironworks meteoritem...@gmail.com
 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - First Chelyabinsk Offering!
 To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Date: Sunday, February 17, 2013, 2:22 AM
 Limited time only! - http://tinyurl.com/c7bwood

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Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 related, yes I think so...

2013-02-16 Thread Mike Hankey

good article that shows graphically why/how these are not related.

http://www.wired.com/geekmom/2013/02/asteroids-and-meteors-same-day/

On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu 
wrote:
 I'm talking about two different trajectories. Different inclinations,
 different semimajor axes, (very) different eccentricities, (very) different
 geocentric velocities. There is no plausible mechanism for ending up with
 two pieces of the same body in such radically different orbits- it would
 require first separating them, and then subjecting each to a different
 history of three-body interactions.

 If the foremost celestial mechanics expert in your country says the two
 are similar, he is not competent. I don't notice him speaking out.


 Chris

 ***
 Chris L Peterson
 Cloudbait Observatory
 http://www.cloudbait.com


 On 2/15/2013 11:35 PM, Bjorn Sorheim wrote:


 Two completely different trajectories??
 What the heck are you talking about?
 They are quite similar. It would not at this point say they are identical.
 In WHAT way are they _completely different_, elaborate please.
 And don't be so d** arrogant, for christ sake.
 I could mention that the foremost celest mechanican in my country says
 they
 are strangly similar, and he has been working for NASA and the Voyagers,
 and he has
 an asteroid named after him.

 Bjørn Sørheim


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Re: [meteorite-list] Russian missile

2013-02-16 Thread bandk chorus.net

Man-made?? Come on nowno way was this blast from a man-made event or object.

For sure---this WAS extra-terrestrial in origin.

Kirk

On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 7:41 AM, noakes pinwa...@nep.net wrote:
 What's wrong with this picture. Sonic booms (multiple) , close to earth.
 Incandescing (multiple). Fits a manmade object-not a meteorite. Nels
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Re: [meteorite-list] EBay you gotta be kidding me Now their selling DIRT!!

2013-02-16 Thread bill kies


The half goes to charity claim is questionable. Other than that I don't see 
anything wrong with the sale of dirt. The seller doesn't claim the material is 
meteoric. Maybe there are some nice spheroids in it :P 

Souvenir dirt and sand from historic places is sold worldwide. I think I have 
some dirt from the Alamo and a sample of Jerusalem sand around somewhere...



 From: dmerc...@rochester.rr.com
 To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 12:00:21 -0500
 CC: dmerc...@rochester.rr.com
 Subject: [meteorite-list] EBay you gotta be kidding me Now their selling 
 DIRT!!

 Hi List. Wow like fly's on sh#$. Like ants coming out of the wood work.
 Scammers and thieves.

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ground-near-fall-meteorite-Russia-2013-Chelyabinks-asteroid-/261170537371?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3ccefa239b

 or this.

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Russia-2013-February-15-Chelyabinks-Black-sand-near-fall-meteorite-/261170629214?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3ccefb8a5e

 Sincerely
 Don Merchant
 Founder-Cosmic Treasures Celestial Wonders
 www.ctreasurescwonders.com
 IMCA #0960

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Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 related, yes I think so...



Where are these elements posted??
It's impossible that they could be as different as you state here.
My mailbox got full yesterday, so if they have been posted on this list
while I could not receive any new messages, I must apologize.
But if not, post the elements or supply a link.
It is interesting to note that NASA have not issued any stronger comment
than they did yesterday.
I am also surprised that good elements, as your anwer would indicate,
could be computed the same day they first occured. Not a thing of earlier days
such an achievement.

The professor of astrophysics and celestial mechanics is a highly competent 
guy,

therefore NASA used him.

Bjørn Sørheim


I'm talking about two different trajectories. Different inclinations,
different semimajor axes, (very) different eccentricities, (very)
different geocentric velocities. There is no plausible mechanism for
ending up with two pieces of the same body in such radically different
orbits- it would require first separating them, and then subjecting each
to a different history of three-body interactions.

If the foremost celestial mechanics expert in your country says the
two are similar, he is not competent. I don't notice him speaking out.

Chris

***
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory


On 2/15/2013 11:35 PM, Bjorn Sorheim wrote:

 Two completely different trajectories??
 What the heck are you talking about?
 They are quite similar. It would not at this point say they are identical.
 In WHAT way are they _completely different_, elaborate please.
 And don't be so d** arrogant, for christ sake.
 I could mention that the foremost celest mechanican in my country says they
 are strangly similar, and he has been working for NASA and the Voyagers,
 and he has
 an asteroid named after him.

 Bjørn Sørheim

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Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 related, yes I think so...

2013-02-16 Thread Mike Hankey

Esko posted these yesterday on meteor obs. This is estimated. The
wired article said it used SETI results.

Using mainly the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZxXYscmgRg
and the weather satellite image, with no real good calibrations, I get a
rough solar system orbit ( the last stage by means of Marco Langbroek
Excel sheet).


( Entry with velocity 17 km/s ( 17.3) from about az. 97 with the slope
of 18 deg. Corresponding (luminous) start heigth (assumed, quite heigh
for the velocity, but considers very big size) 100 km and the end 7+  km.)
a=1.66
e=0.52
q=0.80 AU
aphelion at 2.53 AU
node=326.43 ( J2000.0 )
arg peri=116.0
i=4.05
43.6 days after perihelion
The geocentric radiant is 338, +2
This is only of very general quality and given with (a lot) too many
decimals.

The orbit does not much resemble the 2009 Feb, 16 innish fireball that I
told of yesterday.

According to that solution, the landing site would be not much more than
30 km away from that video recording site. But I do not know the
coordinates of this, except very roughly.
There quite probably are a lot of small fragments fallen down much
earlier along the track,  (with possibly a number of bigger ones,
besides the main piece).

Esko




On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Bjorn Sorheim astro...@online.no wrote:

 Where are these elements posted??
 It's impossible that they could be as different as you state here.
 My mailbox got full yesterday, so if they have been posted on this list
 while I could not receive any new messages, I must apologize.
 But if not, post the elements or supply a link.
 It is interesting to note that NASA have not issued any stronger comment
 than they did yesterday.
 I am also surprised that good elements, as your anwer would indicate,
 could be computed the same day they first occured. Not a thing of earlier
 days
 such an achievement.

 The professor of astrophysics and celestial mechanics is a highly competent
 guy,
 therefore NASA used him.

 Bjørn Sørheim



I'm talking about two different trajectories. Different inclinations,
different semimajor axes, (very) different eccentricities, (very)
different geocentric velocities. There is no plausible mechanism for
ending up with two pieces of the same body in such radically different
orbits- it would require first separating them, and then subjecting each
to a different history of three-body interactions.

If the foremost celestial mechanics expert in your country says the
two are similar, he is not competent. I don't notice him speaking out.

Chris

***
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory


On 2/15/2013 11:35 PM, Bjorn Sorheim wrote:

 Two completely different trajectories??
 What the heck are you talking about?
 They are quite similar. It would not at this point say they are
 identical.
 In WHAT way are they _completely different_, elaborate please.
 And don't be so d** arrogant, for christ sake.
 I could mention that the foremost celest mechanican in my country says
 they
 are strangly similar, and he has been working for NASA and the Voyagers,
 and he has
 an asteroid named after him.

 Bjørn Sørheim

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[meteorite-list] Trajectory comparison of 2012 DA14 and Russian meteor

Hi Mike/Bjorn/List,

Esko, Bill Gray and I exchanged a number of e-mails amongst each other yesterday
and early today discussing the Russian meteor trajectory. From the perspective
of
the earth, the two trajectories to first order are nearly perpendicular to each
other.
So that is pretty much end-of-story for any dynamical linkage between the
Russian
meteor and 2012 DA14.

Esko has since revised his estimate of the approach azimuth by a few degrees,
resulting in a lower velocity for the Russian meteor -- and getting closer to
the
minimum velocity possible. Unfortunately, the chances of precovery observations
of the small asteroid are pretty much zero due to the low solar elongation.
About
the only hope of a precovery observation would be if the elongation was low
enough that the object was within SOHO LASCO C3's field of view roughly a
day before impact. But even if it was, I doubt it would have been anywhere
near bright enough for LASCO to detect due to its small size and extremely
poor phase angle.  --Rob

-Original Message-
From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hankey
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 10:39 AM
To: Bjorn Sorheim
Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 related,
yes I think so...

Esko posted these yesterday on meteor obs. This is estimated. The
wired article said it used SETI results.

Using mainly the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZxXYscmgRg
and the weather satellite image, with no real good calibrations, I get a
rough solar system orbit ( the last stage by means of Marco Langbroek
Excel sheet).


( Entry with velocity 17 km/s ( 17.3) from about az. 97 with the slope
of 18 deg. Corresponding (luminous) start heigth (assumed, quite heigh
for the velocity, but considers very big size) 100 km and the end 7+  km.)
a=1.66
e=0.52
q=0.80 AU
aphelion at 2.53 AU
node=326.43 ( J2000.0 )
arg peri=116.0
i=4.05
43.6 days after perihelion
The geocentric radiant is 338, +2
This is only of very general quality and given with (a lot) too many
decimals.

The orbit does not much resemble the 2009 Feb, 16 innish fireball that I
told of yesterday.

According to that solution, the landing site would be not much more than
30 km away from that video recording site. But I do not know the
coordinates of this, except very roughly.
There quite probably are a lot of small fragments fallen down much
earlier along the track,  (with possibly a number of bigger ones,
besides the main piece).

Esko




On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Bjorn Sorheim astro...@online.no wrote:

 Where are these elements posted??
 It's impossible that they could be as different as you state here.
 My mailbox got full yesterday, so if they have been posted on this list
 while I could not receive any new messages, I must apologize.
 But if not, post the elements or supply a link.
 It is interesting to note that NASA have not issued any stronger comment
 than they did yesterday.
 I am also surprised that good elements, as your anwer would indicate,
 could be computed the same day they first occured. Not a thing of earlier
 days
 such an achievement.

 The professor of astrophysics and celestial mechanics is a highly competent
 guy,
 therefore NASA used him.

 Bjørn Sørheim



I'm talking about two different trajectories. Different inclinations,
different semimajor axes, (very) different eccentricities, (very)
different geocentric velocities. There is no plausible mechanism for
ending up with two pieces of the same body in such radically different
orbits- it would require first separating them, and then subjecting each
to a different history of three-body interactions.

If the foremost celestial mechanics expert in your country says the
two are similar, he is not competent. I don't notice him speaking out.

Chris

***
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory


On 2/15/2013 11:35 PM, Bjorn Sorheim wrote:

 Two completely different trajectories??
 What the heck are you talking about?
 They are quite similar. It would not at this point say they are
 identical.
 In WHAT way are they _completely different_, elaborate please.
 And don't be so d** arrogant, for christ sake.
 I could mention that the foremost celest mechanican in my country says
 they
 are strangly similar, and he has been working for NASA and the Voyagers,
 and he has
 an asteroid named after him.

 Bjørn Sørheim


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Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 related, yes I think so...



I must be starting praying for you MIke!!?
That's the most clueless article about these events I have ever seen.
Or someone purporting to know anything about celestial mechanics.
Wired and author Helene McLaughlin doesn't know a thing about celestial 
mechanics.

The diagram is totally wrong, and the explanation about their paths is
a TOTAL misunderstanding.
As I have been trying to convey, the meteoroid falling in
Russia (technically it is actually an asteroid as it is so big 15-17m) 
didn't originate
from 2012DA14 while it passed the Earth! It split of way before and was 
travelling parallell
with the mother asteroid but a long distance ahead of it and a bit over 2 
Earth diameters

inside its orbit.

Mike Hankey wrote:

good article that shows graphically why/how these are not related.

https://epost.telenor.no/mobileoffice//mobileoffice/?cmd=mailsub=redirecturl=http://www.wired.com/geekmom/2013/02/asteroids-and-meteors-same-day/http://www.wired.com/geekmom/2013/02/asteroids-and-meteors-same-day/ 







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Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 related, yes I think so...


Hi Bjorn (and list)

Why do I think you might be right ?
Or is this just another of those coincidences...

Anyway, please pursue your idea/flair...!
Science in history shows that out of the box
approaches lead to real discoveries.

That's why I don't listen to the reasonable,
classical, main stream comments and deductions anymore...

Cheers
Michael B.


--
From: Bjorn Sorheim astro...@online.no
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 8:04 PM
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 
related, yes I think so...




I must be starting praying for you MIke!!?
That's the most clueless article about these events I have ever seen.
Or someone purporting to know anything about celestial mechanics.
Wired and author Helene McLaughlin doesn't know a thing about celestial 
mechanics.

The diagram is totally wrong, and the explanation about their paths is
a TOTAL misunderstanding.
As I have been trying to convey, the meteoroid falling in
Russia (technically it is actually an asteroid as it is so big 15-17m) 
didn't originate
from 2012DA14 while it passed the Earth! It split of way before and was 
travelling parallell
with the mother asteroid but a long distance ahead of it and a bit over 2 
Earth diameters

inside its orbit.

Mike Hankey wrote:

good article that shows graphically why/how these are not related.

https://epost.telenor.no/mobileoffice//mobileoffice/?cmd=mailsub=redirecturl=http://www.wired.com/geekmom/2013/02/asteroids-and-meteors-same-day/http://www.wired.com/geekmom/2013/02/asteroids-and-meteors-same-day/






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Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 related, yes I think so...

The orbital elements are precisely known for DA14, and the estimated 
elements for the meteor are certainly not far off. You don't understand 
orbital dynamics at all if you believe these two bodies could have been 
in parallel orbits. They were not. There is no plausible mechanism that 
could have resulted in a piece of DA14 ending up in a radically 
different orbit. You appear to be focusing on the location of the impact 
and the location of the asteroid. What is relevant is the paths they 
were in, and that is known.


If you want to run around sounding like some sort of conspiracy nut, 
knock yourself out (as well as your so-called anonymous expert). These 
events were unrelated. That is as certain as anything can be.


Chris

***
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

On 2/16/2013 12:04 PM, Bjorn Sorheim wrote:


I must be starting praying for you MIke!!?
That's the most clueless article about these events I have ever seen.
Or someone purporting to know anything about celestial mechanics.
Wired and author Helene McLaughlin doesn't know a thing about celestial
mechanics.
The diagram is totally wrong, and the explanation about their paths is
a TOTAL misunderstanding.
As I have been trying to convey, the meteoroid falling in
Russia (technically it is actually an asteroid as it is so big 15-17m)
didn't originate
from 2012DA14 while it passed the Earth! It split of way before and was
travelling parallell
with the mother asteroid but a long distance ahead of it and a bit over
2 Earth diameters
inside its orbit.


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Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 related, yes I think so...


Hi Chris

I am a scientist myself, in agronomy.
And I have learned to be more and more skeptical
about the common/obvious knowledge over the years...

You might be right... but be careful about your
high level of certainty...

Said with all respect to you but also Bjorn
who seems to have a point, if you take into
account what he said about a split before...

Anyway
lets enjoy your different arguments

Michael B.



--
From: Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 8:31 PM
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 
related, yes I think so...


The orbital elements are precisely known for DA14, and the estimated 
elements for the meteor are certainly not far off. You don't understand 
orbital dynamics at all if you believe these two bodies could have been in 
parallel orbits. They were not. There is no plausible mechanism that could 
have resulted in a piece of DA14 ending up in a radically different orbit. 
You appear to be focusing on the location of the impact and the location 
of the asteroid. What is relevant is the paths they were in, and that is 
known.


If you want to run around sounding like some sort of conspiracy nut, knock 
yourself out (as well as your so-called anonymous expert). These events 
were unrelated. That is as certain as anything can be.


Chris

***
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

On 2/16/2013 12:04 PM, Bjorn Sorheim wrote:


I must be starting praying for you MIke!!?
That's the most clueless article about these events I have ever seen.
Or someone purporting to know anything about celestial mechanics.
Wired and author Helene McLaughlin doesn't know a thing about celestial
mechanics.
The diagram is totally wrong, and the explanation about their paths is
a TOTAL misunderstanding.
As I have been trying to convey, the meteoroid falling in
Russia (technically it is actually an asteroid as it is so big 15-17m)
didn't originate
from 2012DA14 while it passed the Earth! It split of way before and was
travelling parallell
with the mother asteroid but a long distance ahead of it and a bit over
2 Earth diameters
inside its orbit.


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Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 related, yes I think so...

Skepticism does not require having significant doubt about things which 
are well understood. The suggestion that has been offered is either the 
product of extreme ignorance or of outright pseudoscience (well, the 
question was a fair one, but the insistence upon sticking with the 
belief in light of educated responses is highly unreasonable).


In this case, we have a situation where it is essentially physically 
impossible for the two events to be connected. Even if the two bodies 
involved were once part of the same one (which is extremely unlikely), 
it would take a very long time for them to deviate so much in their 
orbits- meaning that it would still be a coincidence that they arrived 
at the same time.


There is no reasonable or likely mechanism for a body to split and 
produce products with radically different orbits.


Chris

***
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

On 2/16/2013 12:40 PM, Michael Bross wrote:

Hi Chris

I am a scientist myself, in agronomy.
And I have learned to be more and more skeptical
about the common/obvious knowledge over the years...

You might be right... but be careful about your
high level of certainty...

Said with all respect to you but also Bjorn
who seems to have a point, if you take into
account what he said about a split before...

Anyway
lets enjoy your different arguments

Michael B.


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Re: [meteorite-list] Interactive map of all known meteorites (Guardian data blog)

2013-02-16 Thread Jan Woreczko Wadi


Ha
I recommend:
http://www.woreczko.pl/meteorites/GoogleEarth/Libya_newIcons.kmz
and
http://wiki.meteoritica.pl/index.php5/Meteoryty
and more
http://www.woreczko.pl/meteorites/GoogleEarth/GE-KMZfiles.htm
Best
Woreczko


- Original Message - 
From: Galactic Stone  Ironworks meteoritem...@gmail.com

To: Rich Atkinson atkins...@gmail.com
Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Anne Black impact...@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Interactive map of all known meteorites 
(Guardian data blog)



And the Libyan Desert Glass is in the wrong place!  ;)



On 2/16/13, Rich Atkinson atkins...@gmail.com wrote:

Anne,
Not sure what the problem is. I just cut and pasted the description
from the Guardian web page so that people can decide if they want to
follow the link or not.

Am sure they'd appreciate your feedback.


On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 4:36 PM, Anne Black impact...@aol.com wrote:

A couple problems.

I suppose you mean the Meteoritical Society, not the Meteorological
Society,
since we are talking about meteorites not weather.
Also, there should be a red dot in Alsace, eastern France, where the
Ensisheim meteorite fell in 1492.

Besides that, this map is a great idea.


Anne M. Black
www.IMPACTIKA.com
impact...@aol.com



-Original Message-
From: Rich Atkinson atkins...@gmail.com
To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Fri, Feb 15, 2013 10:23 pm
Subject: [meteorite-list] Interactive map of all known meteorites
(Guardian
data blog)


Every meteorite fall on earth mapped

Or at least those we know about. And where are the known meteorite
landing places on earth? These impact zones show where scientists have
found meteorites, or the impact craters of meteorites, some dating
back as far as the year 2,300BC. The data is from the US
Meteorological Society and doesn't show those places where meteorites
may have fallen but not been discovered


http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2013/feb/15/meteorite-fall-map

rich
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Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 related, yes I think so...


Ok... lets see.
because all the first part of your email
makes me reasonably think like you...
but then I read the end...

Quote:
There is no reasonable or likely mechanism for a body to split and
produce products with radically different orbits.

How sure are you about this... ?
Especially the reasonable and likely mechanism part
As I said before.

Anyway, sorry if I disturb the list but this doesn't sound like an evidence
to me

Michael



--
From: Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 9:21 PM
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 
related, yes I think so...


Skepticism does not require having significant doubt about things which 
are well understood. The suggestion that has been offered is either the 
product of extreme ignorance or of outright pseudoscience (well, the 
question was a fair one, but the insistence upon sticking with the belief 
in light of educated responses is highly unreasonable).


In this case, we have a situation where it is essentially physically 
impossible for the two events to be connected. Even if the two bodies 
involved were once part of the same one (which is extremely unlikely), it 
would take a very long time for them to deviate so much in their orbits- 
meaning that it would still be a coincidence that they arrived at the same 
time.


There is no reasonable or likely mechanism for a body to split and produce 
products with radically different orbits.


Chris

***
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

On 2/16/2013 12:40 PM, Michael Bross wrote:

Hi Chris

I am a scientist myself, in agronomy.
And I have learned to be more and more skeptical
about the common/obvious knowledge over the years...

You might be right... but be careful about your
high level of certainty...

Said with all respect to you but also Bjorn
who seems to have a point, if you take into
account what he said about a split before...

Anyway
lets enjoy your different arguments

Michael B.


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Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 related, yes I think so...

Hi Michael,

 ... I have learned to be more and more skeptical about the common/obvious
 knowledge over the years... You might be right... but be careful about your
 high level of certainty...

The level of celestial mechanical certainty involved here is comparable to the
uncertainty that 1+1 = 2. That said, I will play Devil's Advocate and mention
that
there is one rather far-out scenario which is probably still dynamically
impossible,
but I mention it out of completeness. Imagine an object (that was once part
of 2012 DA14) leading it by nearly a day on a slightly different trajectory.
(Forget for the moment that days if not weeks before the 2012 DA14 flyby
it would have been detected by astronomers that were already tracking
the larger asteroid.) Suppose this unlikely object happens to make an
extremely grazing pass of the lunar farside such that its direction is
drastically
bent by ~90 degrees -- in precisely the right direction for a grazing intercept
with Earth, say, 6 to 10 hours later. Such a 3-body solution is the ONLY way to
bring about the situation you require, and yet I would argue that the
probability
of it happening by chance is much, much smaller than that of two smallish
asteroids making a close pass by earth within 24 hours of each other.

Really, though, the failure to telescopically detect the second object ahead
of 2012 DA14 when it was being tracked by so many professionals and
citizen scientists throws a bit of cold water on the whole crazy scenario.

--Rob

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Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 related, yes I think so...


Hi Rob

Your 1+1=2 doesn't convince me
BUT your Devil's Advocate much more...

I am glad I pursued on this, because NOW
I am getting a tangible answer

Thank you !

best regards to all

Michael B.

--
From: Rob Matson mojave_meteori...@cox.net
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 9:33 PM
To: 'Michael Bross' elemen...@peconic.net; 'Chris Peterson' 
c...@alumni.caltech.edu; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com

Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 
2012DA14related,yes I think so...


Hi Michael,


... I have learned to be more and more skeptical about the common/obvious
knowledge over the years... You might be right... but be careful about 
your

high level of certainty...


The level of celestial mechanical certainty involved here is comparable to 
the
uncertainty that 1+1 = 2. That said, I will play Devil's Advocate and 
mention

that
there is one rather far-out scenario which is probably still dynamically
impossible,
but I mention it out of completeness. Imagine an object (that was once 
part
of 2012 DA14) leading it by nearly a day on a slightly different 
trajectory.

(Forget for the moment that days if not weeks before the 2012 DA14 flyby
it would have been detected by astronomers that were already tracking
the larger asteroid.) Suppose this unlikely object happens to make an
extremely grazing pass of the lunar farside such that its direction is
drastically
bent by ~90 degrees -- in precisely the right direction for a grazing 
intercept
with Earth, say, 6 to 10 hours later. Such a 3-body solution is the ONLY 
way to

bring about the situation you require, and yet I would argue that the
probability
of it happening by chance is much, much smaller than that of two smallish
asteroids making a close pass by earth within 24 hours of each other.

Really, though, the failure to telescopically detect the second object 
ahead

of 2012 DA14 when it was being tracked by so many professionals and
citizen scientists throws a bit of cold water on the whole crazy scenario.

--Rob


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Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 related, yes I think so...

It takes a large amount of energy to split a massive body into 
components with radically different orbits (and that these bodies have 
radically different orbits is known beyond reasonable doubt). That 
energy could be supplied explosively, as when a pair of bodies collide. 
But that amount of energy would create a lot of debris, which has not 
been observed. It is also statistically unlikely for it to occur very 
close to the Earth (as it would have to). Indeed, that is statistically 
much less likely than the simple passage of two bodies close to the 
Earth within a few hours of each other.


The other mechanism for creating different orbits is the actual one that 
describes much of what we see in terms of minor bodies in the Solar 
System, which is gravitational perturbation. What frequently goes 
unappreciated, however, is that three bodies are required. These are 
most often the asteroid/comet, Jupiter, and the Sun, but certainly other 
bodies are occasionally involved. The only potential body that could set 
up these different orbits so shortly before impact would be the Moon. 
But I don't believe that DA14 passed closely enough to the Moon to allow 
a tidal separation of asteroid components followed by the complex sort 
of slingshot effect that would be required to so dramatically change 
the inclination and velocity of the smaller component. Remember, DA14 
has been under observation for a year.


So that's what I mean when I say that there seems to be no reasonable or 
likely scenario that could explain these bodies being related. But the 
odds of two such bodies being where they were at that time are not 
particularly long at all.


Chris

***
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

On 2/16/2013 1:32 PM, Michael Bross wrote:

Ok... lets see.
because all the first part of your email
makes me reasonably think like you...
but then I read the end...

Quote:
There is no reasonable or likely mechanism for a body to split and
produce products with radically different orbits.

How sure are you about this... ?
Especially the reasonable and likely mechanism part
As I said before.

Anyway, sorry if I disturb the list but this doesn't sound like an evidence
to me

Michael


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[meteorite-list] Russian meteor composition

Hi All,

Getting back to the Russian meteor itself, what I find most surprising so far is
that after two full days of daylight hours to search for fragments against a
fairly white background, not one meteorite has been found. The prevailing
wisdom ~had~ been that this was an iron, given the deep penetration and
seemingly minimal deceleration. But with nothing found so far -- in spite of
the relatively low entry velocity, shallow trajectory, and huge initial mass --
I begin to question that initial compositional assumption. Maybe this was
closer to Tunguska-like than it was Sikhote-Alin-like (i.e. cometary). That
said, the initial estimate of the orbit doesn't appear to be very comet-like
(low semi-major axis). The period is lower than that of even 2P/Encke.

 --Rob


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[meteorite-list] Fireball reported across California sky

2013-02-16 Thread Paul H.

Fireball reported across California sky, Mike Denison, USA TODAY
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/02/16/fireball-calif-sky/1924483/

Watch: Fireball Streaks Across Bay Area Sky by Lori Preuitt
NBC Bay Area, February 16, 2013
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Fireball-Streaks-Across-Bay-Area-Sky-191503601.html

Fireball Streaks Across California Sky, NBC Southern California
http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Watch-Fireball-Streaks-Across-Bay-Area-Sky-191508391.html

On heels of Russia meteor explosion, Calif. residents report 
streak of light, Washington Post, February 16, 2013
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/on-heels-of-russia-meteor-explosion-calif-residents-report-streak-of-light-over-calif-sky/2013/02/16/cd8b0c7e-7851-11e2-b102-948929030e64_story.html

Yours,

Paul H.
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Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 related, yes I think so...


Thank you Chris

I learned with your great answer.

Best regards

Michael B.


--
From: Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 9:50 PM
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 
related, yes I think so...


It takes a large amount of energy to split a massive body into components 
with radically different orbits (and that these bodies have radically 
different orbits is known beyond reasonable doubt). That energy could be 
supplied explosively, as when a pair of bodies collide. But that amount of 
energy would create a lot of debris, which has not been observed. It is 
also statistically unlikely for it to occur very close to the Earth (as it 
would have to). Indeed, that is statistically much less likely than the 
simple passage of two bodies close to the Earth within a few hours of each 
other.


The other mechanism for creating different orbits is the actual one that 
describes much of what we see in terms of minor bodies in the Solar 
System, which is gravitational perturbation. What frequently goes 
unappreciated, however, is that three bodies are required. These are most 
often the asteroid/comet, Jupiter, and the Sun, but certainly other bodies 
are occasionally involved. The only potential body that could set up these 
different orbits so shortly before impact would be the Moon. But I don't 
believe that DA14 passed closely enough to the Moon to allow a tidal 
separation of asteroid components followed by the complex sort of 
slingshot effect that would be required to so dramatically change the 
inclination and velocity of the smaller component. Remember, DA14 has been 
under observation for a year.


So that's what I mean when I say that there seems to be no reasonable or 
likely scenario that could explain these bodies being related. But the 
odds of two such bodies being where they were at that time are not 
particularly long at all.


Chris

***
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

On 2/16/2013 1:32 PM, Michael Bross wrote:

Ok... lets see.
because all the first part of your email
makes me reasonably think like you...
but then I read the end...

Quote:
There is no reasonable or likely mechanism for a body to split and
produce products with radically different orbits.

How sure are you about this... ?
Especially the reasonable and likely mechanism part
As I said before.

Anyway, sorry if I disturb the list but this doesn't sound like an 
evidence

to me

Michael


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[meteorite-list] AD: Imilchil - perfect etched Endcuts and some Specials

2013-02-16 Thread Mirko Graul

Dear List Members,

i have listed on ebay a fine selection of perfect etched pieces of Imilchil.

Some pieces are very very special and shows a reheated rim with large Troilite 
and Graphite Inclusions.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230930472956?ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT_trksid=p3984.m1559.l2649

http://www.ebay.com/itm/370761357009?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649


Other pieces are complete recrystallized.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230930467200?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649

http://www.ebay.com/itm/370761353532?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649


Other pieces shows very strong Neumannn Lines.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230930476675?ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT_trksid=p3984.m1559.l2649


http://www.ebay.com/itm/230930475070?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649



And the most of all other pieces shows large Schreibersite Inclusions.

All my offers you can find here:

http://stores.ebay.com/Mirko-Graul-Meteorite?_trksid=p2047675.l2563



Best regards Mirko

 




Mirko Graul Meteorite 
Quittenring.4 
16321 Bernau 
GERMANY 

Phone: 0049-1724105015 
E-Mail: m_gr...@yahoo.de 
WEB: www.meteorite-mirko.de 

Member of The Meteoritical Society 
(International Society for Meteoritics and Planetery Science) 

IMCA-Member: 2113 
(International Meteorite Collectors Association) 
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Re: [meteorite-list] Russian meteor composition

Hi Rob and List,

Good points, and some of those same thoughts had crossed my mind.
Namely, where are the meteorites?  If this had been a Sikhote Alin
type of fall, we would have seen many meteorites recovered by now.
Bogus eBay-offerings aside, nothing has been recovered yet - or, if
any recoveries have been made, they have not been publicly announced.

Is there spectral data on this object?  And if so, can someone provide a link?

Best regards,

MikeG

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Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
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-



On 2/16/13, Rob Matson mojave_meteori...@cox.net wrote:
 Hi All,

 Getting back to the Russian meteor itself, what I find most surprising so
 far is
 that after two full days of daylight hours to search for fragments against
 a
 fairly white background, not one meteorite has been found. The prevailing
 wisdom ~had~ been that this was an iron, given the deep penetration and
 seemingly minimal deceleration. But with nothing found so far -- in spite
 of
 the relatively low entry velocity, shallow trajectory, and huge initial mass
 --
 I begin to question that initial compositional assumption. Maybe this was
 closer to Tunguska-like than it was Sikhote-Alin-like (i.e. cometary). That
 said, the initial estimate of the orbit doesn't appear to be very
 comet-like
 (low semi-major axis). The period is lower than that of even 2P/Encke.

  --Rob


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Re: [meteorite-list] Russian meteor composition

2013-02-16 Thread Dennis Miller

The Science Channel is airing a special on the Russian meteorite event, tonight 
 at 8:00PM.
Dennis

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2013, at 2:51 PM, Galactic Stone  Ironworks 
meteoritem...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi Rob and List,
 
 Good points, and some of those same thoughts had crossed my mind.
 Namely, where are the meteorites?  If this had been a Sikhote Alin
 type of fall, we would have seen many meteorites recovered by now.
 Bogus eBay-offerings aside, nothing has been recovered yet - or, if
 any recoveries have been made, they have not been publicly announced.
 
 Is there spectral data on this object?  And if so, can someone provide a link?
 
 Best regards,
 
 MikeG
 
 -- 
 -
 Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com
 Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
 Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone
 Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone
 RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
 -
 
 
 
 On 2/16/13, Rob Matson mojave_meteori...@cox.net wrote:
 Hi All,
 
 Getting back to the Russian meteor itself, what I find most surprising so
 far is
 that after two full days of daylight hours to search for fragments against
 a
 fairly white background, not one meteorite has been found. The prevailing
 wisdom ~had~ been that this was an iron, given the deep penetration and
 seemingly minimal deceleration. But with nothing found so far -- in spite
 of
 the relatively low entry velocity, shallow trajectory, and huge initial mass
 --
 I begin to question that initial compositional assumption. Maybe this was
 closer to Tunguska-like than it was Sikhote-Alin-like (i.e. cometary). That
 said, the initial estimate of the orbit doesn't appear to be very
 comet-like
 (low semi-major axis). The period is lower than that of even 2P/Encke.
 
 --Rob
 
 
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Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 related, yes I think so...

2013-02-16 Thread Chris Spratt

The posted orbit for the Russian meteor doesn't resemble in any way 2012 
DA14. There is a difference of 7 degrees in the
inclination alone -  about 4 degrees for the meteor and 2012 DA's 
inclination is 11.6 degrees.

Both the Node and Arg Peri are also different.

Chris. Spratt
Victoria, BC
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Re: [meteorite-list] Russian meteor composition

2013-02-16 Thread Chris Spratt

If the object was a Carbonaceous type or a small comet there may not be 
much to find of anything. Tagish Lake fell on the ice

but if it had fallen through what would be left to find?

Chris. Spratt
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Re: [meteorite-list] AD: Imilchil - perfect etched Endcuts and some Specials

Hi Mirko,

Awesome etch work.  Those are some gorgeous specimens.  Your etching
work is consistently some of the best in the business.  Well done sir.
 :)

Best regards,

MikeG

-- 
-
Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com
Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone
Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone
RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
-


On 2/16/13, Mirko Graul m_gr...@yahoo.de wrote:
 Dear List Members,

 i have listed on ebay a fine selection of perfect etched pieces of
 Imilchil.

 Some pieces are very very special and shows a reheated rim with large
 Troilite and Graphite Inclusions.

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/230930472956?ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT_trksid=p3984.m1559.l2649

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/370761357009?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649


 Other pieces are complete recrystallized.

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/230930467200?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/370761353532?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649


 Other pieces shows very strong Neumannn Lines.

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/230930476675?ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT_trksid=p3984.m1559.l2649


 http://www.ebay.com/itm/230930475070?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649



 And the most of all other pieces shows large Schreibersite Inclusions.

 All my offers you can find here:

 http://stores.ebay.com/Mirko-Graul-Meteorite?_trksid=p2047675.l2563



 Best regards Mirko






 Mirko Graul Meteorite
 Quittenring.4
 16321 Bernau
 GERMANY

 Phone: 0049-1724105015
 E-Mail: m_gr...@yahoo.de
 WEB: www.meteorite-mirko.de

 Member of The Meteoritical Society
 (International Society for Meteoritics and Planetery Science)

 IMCA-Member: 2113
 (International Meteorite Collectors Association)
 __

 Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
 Meteorite-list mailing list
 Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
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Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 related, yes I think so...



Thanks for your general positive comment on this discussion.
I would agree with you on the .'more and more skeptical' about some
output of so called scientific knowlegde over the years.

Say any scientist or budding scientist have a model on some kind of aspect
of nature. The model can be quite ok according to exact knowledge and 
observation

about this part of nature.
However, if you wrongly enter the wrong numbers (because of lack of good 
observations or
other misconceptions or sloppy or rushed work) the good quality model won't 
help you, you end up
with hopeless results. Be aware of this situation. And this situation 
happen all the time in science,
an incredible unfounded input of bad numbers. Particulary in astronomy, I 
would say, where so

much is hidden in the darkness of space and unrepeatable fleeting observations.

Take the case Chicxulub for instance. All of this hopeless numbers swirling 
about about size, energy,
entry angle, mass etc. Did it ever happen? Just 65 mill. years since it 
happened and where the
hell is its crater rim?? Should have been higher than Himalaya! Where is 
it?? Who observed this anyway :)
Assumptions, upon assumptions. Yet you hear dinosaur-killer all over the 
popular scientific press,

Discovery, National Geographic channel, etc, etc.
Serious geologist says the reason the dinosaurs perished was outpouring of 
kilometers thick lava sheets
expanding several times the size of my country. Polluted the atmosphere. 
They have found that dinosaurs died
out over hundred thousands of years, not in an instant as the impact theory 
will have it.
Super-volcano at the Deccan traps. No asteroid needed. Yet astronomers pour 
out their staggering Chicxulub numbers an an increasing rate. Easy to lie 
with numbers...


Take also the case of Carancas, Peru, Sept 15., 2007. Every known celestial 
mechanican,  geologist, astronomer,
meteoriticist denied the explosion at Carancas, Peru was a meteorite to the 
press. This was going on for weeks.
The sick hords of people was just sick, a meteorite fall does not make you 
sick, they said.
This was an metan explosion, military detonation at the border, whatever, 
but not a meteorite, the 'experts' said, actually the real experts. 
Meteorites does not produce a 13 m crater! The combined scientific elite 
denied this case. The Peruvian press still kept on reporting about the 
meteorite.
They were all put to shame when the Bureau of Mines (or similar name) in 
Lima, released their scientific study of the
fragments from the crater. It was soon in Meteoritical Bulletin thereafter. 
Going against all science establishments in the developed world. This 
disgraceful story was hardly commented afterwards by anyone.
So science can really go astray, and they often behave like a flock of 
volwes or a flock of sheep. So be alert and aware...


Bjørn Sørheim



Chris

I am a scientist myself, in agronomy.
And I have learned to be more and more skeptical
about the common/obvious knowledge over the years...

You might be right... but be careful about your
high level of certainty...

Said with all respect to you but also Bjorn
who seems to have a point, if you take into
account what he said about a split before...

Anyway
lets enjoy your different arguments

Michael B.

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Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 related, yes I think so...


yes
And I remember also that great documentary on PBS
(Nova I think) about the implications of the eruption
of the Krakatau in Indonesia in the 6th Century
made by an obscure scientist in UK
mocked and ridiculed for years by his pairs...
to end up that he was right about his theory.

Finally, corroborated by intense studies across major
science fields (arctic ice aging, archives at the Vatican etc... etc...)

Cheers

Michael



--
From: Bjorn Sorheim astro...@online.no
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 11:24 PM
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 
related, yes I think so...




Thanks for your general positive comment on this discussion.
I would agree with you on the .'more and more skeptical' about some
output of so called scientific knowlegde over the years.

Say any scientist or budding scientist have a model on some kind of aspect
of nature. The model can be quite ok according to exact knowledge and 
observation

about this part of nature.
However, if you wrongly enter the wrong numbers (because of lack of good 
observations or
other misconceptions or sloppy or rushed work) the good quality model 
won't help you, you end up
with hopeless results. Be aware of this situation. And this situation 
happen all the time in science,
an incredible unfounded input of bad numbers. Particulary in astronomy, I 
would say, where so
much is hidden in the darkness of space and unrepeatable fleeting 
observations.


Take the case Chicxulub for instance. All of this hopeless numbers 
swirling about about size, energy,
entry angle, mass etc. Did it ever happen? Just 65 mill. years since it 
happened and where the
hell is its crater rim?? Should have been higher than Himalaya! Where is 
it?? Who observed this anyway :)
Assumptions, upon assumptions. Yet you hear dinosaur-killer all over the 
popular scientific press,

Discovery, National Geographic channel, etc, etc.
Serious geologist says the reason the dinosaurs perished was outpouring of 
kilometers thick lava sheets
expanding several times the size of my country. Polluted the atmosphere. 
They have found that dinosaurs died
out over hundred thousands of years, not in an instant as the impact 
theory will have it.
Super-volcano at the Deccan traps. No asteroid needed. Yet astronomers 
pour out their staggering Chicxulub numbers an an increasing rate. Easy to 
lie with numbers...


Take also the case of Carancas, Peru, Sept 15., 2007. Every known 
celestial mechanican,  geologist, astronomer,
meteoriticist denied the explosion at Carancas, Peru was a meteorite to 
the press. This was going on for weeks.
The sick hords of people was just sick, a meteorite fall does not make you 
sick, they said.
This was an metan explosion, military detonation at the border, whatever, 
but not a meteorite, the 'experts' said, actually the real experts. 
Meteorites does not produce a 13 m crater! The combined scientific elite 
denied this case. The Peruvian press still kept on reporting about the 
meteorite.
They were all put to shame when the Bureau of Mines (or similar name) in 
Lima, released their scientific study of the
fragments from the crater. It was soon in Meteoritical Bulletin 
thereafter. Going against all science establishments in the developed 
world. This disgraceful story was hardly commented afterwards by anyone.
So science can really go astray, and they often behave like a flock of 
volwes or a flock of sheep. So be alert and aware...


Bjørn Sørheim



Chris

I am a scientist myself, in agronomy.
And I have learned to be more and more skeptical
about the common/obvious knowledge over the years...

You might be right... but be careful about your
high level of certainty...

Said with all respect to you but also Bjorn
who seems to have a point, if you take into
account what he said about a split before...

Anyway
lets enjoy your different arguments

Michael B.

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Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 related, yes I think so...



They are certainly not.
And who was it that brought forward this gelogical analysis to the wider
scientific community. It was me. I certainly didn't do any science on it.
I found it on their site. And posted it here. New Scientist then wrote 
their first positive

scientific article as Carancas being truly a meteorite impact site.

What was your role in this, I don't remember you being involved?
You didn't like anyone retelling the Carancas story from that perspective, huh?
The story was goofy from the point of the combined western scientific 
establishment,
and it would serve to their credit to go into it and analyse why it did 
happen as it did.

And not repeating another pack of wolves rush again.

Bjørn Sørheim

--
Ok, you've gone off the deep end and will now be officially considered
goofy. Your remarks on Carancas are just dumb.

Phil Whitmer
Joshua Tree Earth  Space Museum

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Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 related, yes I think so...

2013-02-16 Thread Joshua Tree Earth Space Museum

Ok, you've gone off the deep end and will now be officially considered 
goofy.  Your remarks on Carancas are just dumb.

Phil Whitmer
Joshua Tree Earth  Space Museum
- Original Message - 
From: Bjorn Sorheim astro...@online.no

To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Russia mega meteor and asteroid 2012DA14 
related, yes I think so...

Thanks for your general positive comment on this discussion.
I would agree with you on the .'more and more skeptical' about some
output of so called scientific knowlegde over the years.

Say any scientist or budding scientist have a model on some kind of aspect
of nature. The model can be quite ok according to exact knowledge and
observation
about this part of nature.
However, if you wrongly enter the wrong numbers (because of lack of good
observations or
other misconceptions or sloppy or rushed work) the good quality model won't
help you, you end up
with hopeless results. Be aware of this situation. And this situation
happen all the time in science,
an incredible unfounded input of bad numbers. Particulary in astronomy, I
would say, where so
much is hidden in the darkness of space and unrepeatable fleeting 
observations.

Take the case Chicxulub for instance. All of this hopeless numbers swirling
about about size, energy,
entry angle, mass etc. Did it ever happen? Just 65 mill. years since it
happened and where the
hell is its crater rim?? Should have been higher than Himalaya! Where is
it?? Who observed this anyway :)
Assumptions, upon assumptions. Yet you hear dinosaur-killer all over the
popular scientific press,
Discovery, National Geographic channel, etc, etc.
Serious geologist says the reason the dinosaurs perished was outpouring of
kilometers thick lava sheets
expanding several times the size of my country. Polluted the atmosphere.
They have found that dinosaurs died
out over hundred thousands of years, not in an instant as the impact theory
will have it.
Super-volcano at the Deccan traps. No asteroid needed. Yet astronomers pour
out their staggering Chicxulub numbers an an increasing rate. Easy to lie
with numbers...

Take also the case of Carancas, Peru, Sept 15., 2007. Every known celestial
mechanican,  geologist, astronomer,
meteoriticist denied the explosion at Carancas, Peru was a meteorite to the
press. This was going on for weeks.
The sick hords of people was just sick, a meteorite fall does not make you
sick, they said.
This was an metan explosion, military detonation at the border, whatever,
but not a meteorite, the 'experts' said, actually the real experts.
Meteorites does not produce a 13 m crater! The combined scientific elite
denied this case. The Peruvian press still kept on reporting about the
meteorite.
They were all put to shame when the Bureau of Mines (or similar name) in
Lima, released their scientific study of the
fragments from the crater. It was soon in Meteoritical Bulletin thereafter.
Going against all science establishments in the developed world. This
disgraceful story was hardly commented afterwards by anyone.
So science can really go astray, and they often behave like a flock of
volwes or a flock of sheep. So be alert and aware...

Bjørn Sørheim

Chris

I am a scientist myself, in agronomy.
And I have learned to be more and more skeptical
about the common/obvious knowledge over the years...

You might be right... but be careful about your
high level of certainty...

Said with all respect to you but also Bjorn
who seems to have a point, if you take into
account what he said about a split before...

Anyway
lets enjoy your different arguments

Michael B.

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Re: [meteorite-list] Russian meteor composition

2013-02-16 Thread Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D.

Hi Rob et al,

I've spent several hours searching for different video footage of the 
fireball, the smoke trail, the hole in the ice, etc.

First, can anyone point me to any scientific papers which attempt
to correlate:
a) the color of the smoky tail, and/or
b) the color of the fireball
with the type of meteorite?
If so, I'd appreciate the reference(s).

It always seemed to me that the smoke was so white as to resemble
condensed water vapor than any burnt material.  At a couple of 
intervals, some pink or orange tint appeared, but the trail was almost
purely white.  That suggests to me that the meteoroid was largely
ice, but I am no expert.

There are several videos zoomed in of the fireball itself (unless they 
are fakes).  The color was orange-red, but perhaps if someone could
access the camera(s) taking the pictures one might get a clearer assessment
of the emitted spectrum.  

One thing that was notable from the fireball and the smoke cloud
photos was that the object appeared to be quite flat and stable, the
flames apparent at the two sides, with no flames in between.  The 
smoke cloud seems to confirm this.

I don't think the symmetrically bifurcated incandescence and tail could
have been produced by an object broken in two.  It looks like one 
object burning at both ends.  Perhaps some experts in flight dynamics
could tell us under what conditions we could expect that behavior.
Any pointers to literature on the bifurcated entry would also be
appreciated.

Cheers,
Nick
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Re: [meteorite-list] Russian meteor composition

2013-02-16 Thread karmaka

Hi Nick et al,

I found this earlier today. Maybe it serves as a possible explanation for the
double smoke trail:

automatic translation:

http://translate.google.de/translate?hl=desl=rutl=enu=http%3A%2F%2Fpodmoskovnik.livejournal.com%2F161151.html%3Fnojs%3D1

Cheers,

Martin

Von: Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu
An: Rob Matson mojave_meteori...@cox.net,
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Russian meteor composition
Datum: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 00:25:22 +0100

Hi Rob et al,

I've spent several hours searching for different video footage of the
fireball, the smoke trail, the hole in the ice, etc.

First, can anyone point me to any scientific papers which attempt
to correlate:
a) the color of the smoky tail, and/or
b) the color of the fireball
with the type of meteorite?
If so, I'd appreciate the reference(s).

It always seemed to me that the smoke was so white as to resemble
condensed water vapor than any burnt material. At a couple of
intervals, some pink or orange tint appeared, but the trail was almost
purely white. That suggests to me that the meteoroid was largely
ice, but I am no expert.

There are several videos zoomed in of the fireball itself (unless they
are fakes). The color was orange-red, but perhaps if someone could
access the camera(s) taking the pictures one might get a clearer assessment
of the emitted spectrum.

One thing that was notable from the fireball and the smoke cloud
photos was that the object appeared to be quite flat and stable, the
flames apparent at the two sides, with no flames in between. The
smoke cloud seems to confirm this.

I don't think the symmetrically bifurcated incandescence and tail could
have been produced by an object broken in two. It looks like one
object burning at both ends. Perhaps some experts in flight dynamics
could tell us under what conditions we could expect that behavior.
Any pointers to literature on the bifurcated entry would also be
appreciated.

Cheers,
Nick
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Re: [meteorite-list] Russian meteor composition

2013-02-16 Thread Jim Wooddell

Hi Nick!

I thought the same thing. Why so white?  Ice melt!  I went back and
looked as some witness falls and this was different.  Someone stated
it was iron and that went viral in the media!  And the hole in the
ice!  How much rounder could it be!!!
And then, what's up with all the cameras!  Wow!  We sure got to see
some nice video!

Kind Regards,

Jim Wooddell




On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D.
nick.gess...@duke.edu wrote:
 Hi Rob et al,

 I've spent several hours searching for different video footage of the
 fireball, the smoke trail, the hole in the ice, etc.

 First, can anyone point me to any scientific papers which attempt
 to correlate:
 a) the color of the smoky tail, and/or
 b) the color of the fireball
 with the type of meteorite?
 If so, I'd appreciate the reference(s).

 It always seemed to me that the smoke was so white as to resemble
 condensed water vapor than any burnt material.  At a couple of
 intervals, some pink or orange tint appeared, but the trail was almost
 purely white.  That suggests to me that the meteoroid was largely
 ice, but I am no expert.

 There are several videos zoomed in of the fireball itself (unless they
 are fakes).  The color was orange-red, but perhaps if someone could
 access the camera(s) taking the pictures one might get a clearer assessment
 of the emitted spectrum.

 One thing that was notable from the fireball and the smoke cloud
 photos was that the object appeared to be quite flat and stable, the
 flames apparent at the two sides, with no flames in between.  The
 smoke cloud seems to confirm this.

 I don't think the symmetrically bifurcated incandescence and tail could
 have been produced by an object broken in two.  It looks like one
 object burning at both ends.  Perhaps some experts in flight dynamics
 could tell us under what conditions we could expect that behavior.
 Any pointers to literature on the bifurcated entry would also be
 appreciated.

 Cheers,
 Nick
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-- 
Jim Wooddell
jimwoodd...@gmail.com
928-247-2675
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[meteorite-list] 2012 DA14 and the Russian meteor: no link

2013-02-16 Thread Marco Langbroek



Hi all,

I still see suggestions popping up on this list about a possible link between 
2012 DA14 and the Russian meteor.


I want to point out that even without an accurate trajectory for the Russian 
bolide, a link with 2012 DA14 can be 100% rejected. The orbital geometry of 2012 
DA14 and the latitude of 55 N for the Russian bolide make this impossible.


2012 DA14 and any fragments in a swarm in similar orbit, would approach the 
earth from deep south. The geocentric radiant for the orbit of 2012 DA14 is at 
declination -81 degrees. This means 2012 DA14 fragments approach earth almost 
parallel to the earth polar axis, coming from the south. I.e. they approach 
towards the south pole and the southern hemisphere.


This means fragments can impact on the southern hemisphere, but not on the 
northern hemisphere (except very low latitudes north if we take earth 
gravitational curvature of the final trajectory in account). Because the 
northern hemisphere, and certainly a place as far north as 55 N, is at the far 
side of the earth globe as seen from the 2012 DA14 entry direction.


Compare it with a car. A bird coming in frontal will always hit the front of the 
car - it cannot hit the back of the car. Chelyabinsk at 55 North latitude is 
the back of the car in this comparison, given the approach direction of 2012 
DA 14 and any fragments of it.


- Marco



Dr Marco (asteroid 183294) Langbroek
astero...@langbroek.org

http://www.marcolangbroek.nl
http://asteroids.marcolangbroek.nl
-



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Re: [meteorite-list] Chelyabinsk a closed city?

2013-02-16 Thread Wil

At  Sat, 16 Feb 2013 Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D passes along a message that he
received from a friend:

 About getting on-site ? I am guessing that unless you happened to live
right under the 
fall, you won?t get very close to it now!  (Chelyabinsk was for decades a
?closed? city
because of all the nuclear and other sensitive installations.  Also the most
polluted
city in the world.  I doubt they want foreigners running around picking up
things!)

 Good luck hunting...
 Nick

Short answer: Not only the city but the entire province of Chelyabinsk was
strictly off-limits to all foreign travelers until 1989.  You can travel
there now, but there are lots of areas in that region that are still
strictly forbidden to be near, even for Russians.  There are many towns
there that simply did not appear on the map until the 1990s, and even just
mentioning their names (to Russians, much less to foreigners) was treated as
a very, very serious offense.  Things are of course looser now, but don't
assume they are wide open, because they're not.

The Chelyabinsk region is home to a number of Russian nuclear weapons
facilities.  The area between the southern Ural Mountain cities of
Chelyabinsk and Yekaterinburg was the site of the 1957 Kyshtym disaster at
the Chelyabinsk-65 facility (now known as the Mayak complex in the city
of Ozyorsk, a town whose very existence was a closely held secret until
1994), which was the worst nuclear accident in history.  (Twice as much
radiation was released as in the Chernobyl disaster 29 years later, and more
than 20 villages were depopulated.)  The U-2 spy plane piloted by Francis
Gary Powers that was shot down in the southern Ural Mountains in 1960 is
commonly believed to have been on a mission to photograph the infamous dead
forest there, 3 years later.  There are plenty of other plutonium-handling
facilities in the Chelyabinsk area, and lots of them have experienced
accidents that released radiation, as well.  Consequently, the Chelyabinsk
region is known as the most contaminated spot on earth.  If you do get a
visa and  travel there, then for heaven's sake be acutely aware of where you
can, and cannot, go.  Being spotted walking in the woods where a nuclear
weapons plant is located, and taking pictures and picking up rocks to carry
off, well...  The incredibly tall double fences that are patrolled by the
soldiers with Kalashnikovs and the largest German Shepherd dogs I've seen in
my life are pretty intimidating, trust me. 

Wil
pml_...@yahoo.com


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Re: [meteorite-list] 2012 DA14 and the Russian meteor: no link

Hi Marco,

I couldn't have explained it any better myself. But I have a feeling that
it's the Porthcawl bolide (err SST) all over again. Even almost a decade
after that non-event, there are people who like to show that image as
an example of a brilliant fireball.  --Rob

-Original Message-
From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Marco
Langbroek
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 4:08 PM
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: [meteorite-list] 2012 DA14 and the Russian meteor: no link


Hi all,

I still see suggestions popping up on this list about a possible link between 
2012 DA14 and the Russian meteor.

I want to point out that even without an accurate trajectory for the Russian 
bolide, a link with 2012 DA14 can be 100% rejected. The orbital geometry of 2012

DA14 and the latitude of 55 N for the Russian bolide make this impossible.

2012 DA14 and any fragments in a swarm in similar orbit, would approach the 
earth from deep south. The geocentric radiant for the orbit of 2012 DA14 is at 
declination -81 degrees. This means 2012 DA14 fragments approach earth almost 
parallel to the earth polar axis, coming from the south. I.e. they approach 
towards the south pole and the southern hemisphere.

This means fragments can impact on the southern hemisphere, but not on the 
northern hemisphere (except very low latitudes north if we take earth 
gravitational curvature of the final trajectory in account). Because the 
northern hemisphere, and certainly a place as far north as 55 N, is at the far 
side of the earth globe as seen from the 2012 DA14 entry direction.

Compare it with a car. A bird coming in frontal will always hit the front of the

car - it cannot hit the back of the car. Chelyabinsk at 55 North latitude is 
the back of the car in this comparison, given the approach direction of 2012 
DA 14 and any fragments of it.

- Marco



Dr Marco (asteroid 183294) Langbroek
astero...@langbroek.org

http://www.marcolangbroek.nl
http://asteroids.marcolangbroek.nl
-



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[meteorite-list] Boom 28 secs after Russian meteor passes overhead

Here is a relatively little-watched video showing a 28 second time delay
after the meteor passes almost overhead, and slightly to the south:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odKjwrjIM-k

I am not sure where this is located.  With some work such as that of:


http://ogleearth.com/2013/02/reconstructing-the-chelyabinsk-meteors-path-with-google-earth-youtube-and-high-school-math/

it should be possible to calculate its rate of angular movement.  There
is a ~28 second time delay between the meteor passing almost exactly
overhead, which with a little work could be refined to a figure accurate
to a fraction of a second.  According to a post at the abovementioned
page, the well known video:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwieex7gFAs

is from the suburb of Rosa (Roza) 54° 54′ 38″ N, 61° 27′ 15″ E, ~23km
south of Chelyabinsk.  This shows the path of the meteor being a few km
to the south.

I guess the first-mentioned video is from much the same area.  If so,
with some knowledge of shock wave propagation speeds at various
altitudes, it should be possible to calculate the altitude and velocity
of the meteor at this point.

Another little-watched video with the smoke trail almost overhead is:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64gXz9W2oyQ

This is supposedly from Emanzhelinsk / Yemanzhelinsk, which is further
south still.  I think this shows the smoke trail to be somewhat to the
north, with the initial view of the trail being at the western end.

This would enable the track of the meteor to be located just a few km
north of this location, somewhere between Roza and Emanzhelinsk /
Yemanzhelinsk.


http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Russia,+Chelyabinskaya+oblast,+Rosahl=enll=54.913725,61.42868spn=0.584928,1.087646sll=-37.73563,145.07369sspn=0.050298,0.067978oq=Rosa+Chelyt=hhnear=Roza,+Korkinsky+District,+Chelyabinsk+Oblast,+Russiaz=10

  - Robin

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[meteorite-list] Russian meteor and meteorites.

2013-02-16 Thread Steve Schoner

Upon looking at the particle cloud, hearing the numerous sonic bangs after the 
main blast, and seeing a singular mass proceed for 5 or 6 seconds after, I 
think that there should be many fragments directly under that particle cloud 
all the way to the the lake many miles farther that has a 20' hole in the ice 
thought to be caused by a meteorite.

This meteor must have produced many fragments, each producing the numerous 
sonic booms I heard in the videos after the initial fragmentation blast. People 
should go out looking right under that path all the way to the lake.

And the large piece that continued after the blast for 5 to 6 seconds, and 
maybe produced that 20' hole in the lake ice, might be an iron.  But so far 
nothing was found.  If it is an iron, the divers should use underwater metal 
detectors, and if so it will be found.


Steve Schoner
IMCA #4470


How to Sleep Like a Rock
Obey this one natural trick to fall asleep and stay asleep all night.
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3331/512028464f53828462142st04duc
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Re: [meteorite-list] Russian meteor and meteorites.

2013-02-16 Thread Richard Montgomery

Considering Putin, I question whether we will know yet that any have been 
found.  But I digress

- Original Message - 
From: Steve Schoner scho...@mybluelight.com

To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 4:44 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Russian meteor and meteorites.

Upon looking at the particle cloud, hearing the numerous sonic bangs after 
the main blast, and seeing a singular mass proceed for 5 or 6 seconds 
after, I think that there should be many fragments directly under that 
particle cloud all the way to the the lake many miles farther that has a 
20' hole in the ice thought to be caused by a meteorite.

This meteor must have produced many fragments, each producing the numerous 
sonic booms I heard in the videos after the initial fragmentation blast. 
People should go out looking right under that path all the way to the 
lake.

And the large piece that continued after the blast for 5 to 6 seconds, and 
maybe produced that 20' hole in the lake ice, might be an iron.  But so 
far nothing was found.  If it is an iron, the divers should use underwater 
metal detectors, and if so it will be found.

Steve Schoner
IMCA #4470

How to Sleep Like a Rock
Obey this one natural trick to fall asleep and stay asleep all night.
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3331/512028464f53828462142st04duc
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Re: [meteorite-list] Boom 28 secs after Russian meteor passes overhead

Looking at the comments at:

 
http://ogleearth.com/2013/02/reconstructing-the-chelyabinsk-meteors-path-with-google-earth-youtube-and-high-school-math/

This one is from Korkino, close to Rosa/Roza (54.890703,61.398983):

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odKjwrjIM-k

 - Robin

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[meteorite-list] Vortices in Chelyabinsk particle cloud...

2013-02-16 Thread Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D.

The vortices in the particle cloud are fantastic!
To get a better perspective, I stitched a panorama together.
https://web.duke.edu/isis/gessler/meteorites/chelyabinsk.htm
The videographer made several pans.  This was a 
quickie from the first complete pan.

Enjoy,
Nick
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Re: [meteorite-list] Boom 28 secs after Russian meteor passes overhead

Great find, Robin. (Though I nearly could bear to listen to that music!)  One 
could
probably get a pretty good estimate of the average speed of sound below 10 km
altitude with a typical temperature profile for this part of Russia in early 
morning in
mid-February (presumably quite cold!)  At, say, 310 m/sec, the bolide range is
only 8.7 km, so given the high maximum elevation angle of the meteor as seen
in the video, the altitude will only be a smidge lower than this. (This is VERY 
low,
which explains the severity of the shock waves.)  --Rob

-Original Message-
From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com 
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Robin Whittle
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 4:53 PM
To: METEORITE LIST
Subject: [meteorite-list] Boom 28 secs after Russian meteor passes overhead

Here is a relatively little-watched video showing a 28 second time delay
after the meteor passes almost overhead, and slightly to the south:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odKjwrjIM-k

I am not sure where this is located.  With some work such as that of:


http://ogleearth.com/2013/02/reconstructing-the-chelyabinsk-meteors-path-with-google-earth-youtube-and-high-school-math/

it should be possible to calculate its rate of angular movement.  There
is a ~28 second time delay between the meteor passing almost exactly
overhead, which with a little work could be refined to a figure accurate
to a fraction of a second.  According to a post at the abovementioned
page, the well known video:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwieex7gFAs

is from the suburb of Rosa (Roza) 54� 54' 38? N, 61� 27' 15? E, ~23km
south of Chelyabinsk.  This shows the path of the meteor being a few km
to the south.

I guess the first-mentioned video is from much the same area.  If so,
with some knowledge of shock wave propagation speeds at various
altitudes, it should be possible to calculate the altitude and velocity
of the meteor at this point.

Another little-watched video with the smoke trail almost overhead is:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64gXz9W2oyQ

This is supposedly from Emanzhelinsk / Yemanzhelinsk, which is further
south still.  I think this shows the smoke trail to be somewhat to the
north, with the initial view of the trail being at the western end.

This would enable the track of the meteor to be located just a few km
north of this location, somewhere between Roza and Emanzhelinsk /
Yemanzhelinsk.


http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Russia,+Chelyabinskaya+oblast,+Rosahl=enll=54.913725,61.42868spn=0.584928,1.087646sll=-37.73563,145.07369sspn=0.050298,0.067978oq=Rosa+Chelyt=hhnear=Roza,+Korkinsky+District,+Chelyabinsk+Oblast,+Russiaz=10

  - Robin

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Re: [meteorite-list] Boom 28 secs after Russian meteor passes overhead

Hi Rob,

Indeed 8.7km is low.  I didn't do the calculations - I just wanted to
share with the folks on this list ASAP.  This is about the elevation of
Mt Everest (Sagarmāthā).  According to:


http://fiziknota.blogspot.com/2008/04/atmospheric-pressure-and-altitude.html


the air pressure there is about 1/3 of that at sea level.

It is my impression that the very brightest part of the trail - which in
other videos is seen as incandescent orange in the middle of the smoke -
was around this location (between Roza or Korkino and Emanzhelinsk /
Yemanzhelinsk) and at about this altitude.

Commercial jetliners cruise at around 11km.  Any aircraft flying within
a few km of the meteor would have felt a very strong blast indeed.  I
guess that an aircraft within a few km above or below might not have
survived the blast forces bending its wings up or down.

Like lightning and volcanic eruptions, it would be great to be close to
these extraordinary events - but not so close as to be injured or
killed.  Actually, I think it would be worth a few minor injuries to be
a little closer.

This is kinetic energy from the gravitational collapse of the solar
system directly impacting us on Earth.  A million or more people felt
this energy directly - and many people were injured and hospitalized.

 - Robin


On 2013-02-17 12:15 PM, Rob Matson wrote:

 Great find, Robin. (Though I nearly could bear to listen to that music!)  
 One could
 probably get a pretty good estimate of the average speed of sound below 10 km
 altitude with a typical temperature profile for this part of Russia in early 
 morning in
 mid-February (presumably quite cold!)  At, say, 310 m/sec, the bolide range is
 only 8.7 km, so given the high maximum elevation angle of the meteor as seen
 in the video, the altitude will only be a smidge lower than this. (This is 
 VERY low,
 which explains the severity of the shock waves.)  --Rob

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Re: [meteorite-list] 2012 DA14 and the Russian meteor: a strong link