Re: [meteorite-list] Destruction of the Hopewell civilization

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Anne, everyone - 
When I did my survey of native memories for "Man and Impact in the Americas" 
(now $50 used, thank you. I wrote a collectable. Best wishes to all of you who 
invested in a copy.) I hit no mention of Tankersley et al.'s event. 
None.
It looks to me like they are finding out of sequence deposits, and/or materials 
from the 534 CE Encke fly-by.
No question but the Shawnee had access via their trade network to Brenham as 
well as anything else that came down. 
What is "funny" to me is that so far very few people have stumbled into the 
relatively recent smaller impacts. The way I look at that is "any decade now".
For about $30,000 or so I could go to Chicago and take another look to see if 
Tankersley et al.'s impact event shows up.  I doubt if it will.
In other news, I have recovered a Yazoo sculpture from near my house in 
Vicksburg. I may have to sell it to buy a car. Anyone here work with an auction 
house? Mississippian sculptures are so rare that there is no standard market 
price range.
good hunting everyoneEd E.P. Grondine__
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[meteorite-list] Frank Hibbens returned to honor

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Listeros - 
Some of you with really good memories will remember my defense of Frank Hibbens 
so many years ago.Others will remember the recovery of the artifacts and site 
pictures a few years ago.
Well, this weekend I was at powwow and met the first recipient of the Frank 
Hibbens research grant.A building at University of New Mexico ha also been 
named in his memory.
I suppose my own work on impact events will finally be recognized about 2070 or 
so.
good hunting, everyone,
E.P.__
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[meteorite-list] "Younger Dryas" impact

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 
Once again, as we know from the 14C spikes in production and the meltwater 
pulses, neither of the impacts occurred at the Younger Dryas.Given my 
experience with Hibben's finds, it will take several years before this is 
widely known.
Which is depressing as hell.
If I had not had my stroke, I probably would have been galavanting around 
Canada and have the impact epicenters identified.
Perhaps I should set up a go-fund-me, the E.P. Grondine crater search fund or 
some such.
And then we get these folks trying to tie La Brea to global warming.
Oh Yeah, that's it, global warming led to the extinction of the mammoth and 
mastodon.
oh well, good hunting, everyone, E.P. __
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[meteorite-list] The Holocene Start Impact Events

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hello everyone - 
I just put up on academia a short note  on  the Holocene Start Impact Events in 
response to Holliday et al''s rather complete confusion about the Younger 
Dryas. Take a look,  - it should take maybe  10 -20 minutes, and get back to me 
if you want to. I will post tomorrow on the latest news - 
good hunting, eveyoneE.P. 

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[meteorite-list] Recent impact craters

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi everyone - 
The recent discussion of meteorites from Earth reminds me - 
The impact structures from neither of the Holocene Start Impact Events have 
been identified yet.
We have the 14C production spikes from the gamma radiation of the two impacts, 
and while we can use the meltwater outflows to identify roughly the impact 
areas, ground verification has not yet been accomplished for either of them.
I am quite pleased to read that 70% of the voters of the United States now 
think that finding the next impactor well before it hits is NASA's highest 
priority.
good hunting, everyone,and I hope to see you in Tucson,E.P.
 

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[meteorite-list] New impact structure?

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hello everyone - 

Well, the new year find me above ground - And the Neocam is on its way,
Just as a reminder, last year I announced the production of gamma rays in large 
hyper velocity impacts.That and $2 will get me a cup of coffee. 

As some of you will also recall, I was the first modern scholar to write about 
the comet impact that killed off the mammoth and mastodon.I also spent a lot of 
time defending Hibbens' work.

My colleague Fletcher Wilson wrote me about a possible new impact structure to 
the west of Yellowknife, Alberta.They are tracing the Carolina Bays back to 
it.Just as a reminder again, there should be 2 impact structures in Canada, one 
the well known Holocene Start Impact Structure,and another from the impact 
before that one. This earlier impact is indicated by Meltwater Pulse 1A, and 
associated gamma rays and 14C production.I suppose that perhaps there may be 
comet debris around these structures, although most of it would have been 
carried away,But that should still mean impactites exist - even though the 
impacts were on the ice sheet - good hunting, everyone.

The key here is going to be tracing back the meltwater pulses. It would 
probably help if the geological society inicluded sessions on impatcs 
this year at their meetings.
It is strange that so little work has been done this year on mega-tsunami 
deposits on the Atlantic coast.It is much warmer there than in Alberta.(See my 
paper on academia for notes on the.archaeology of this one.)

I wish I could get to Tucson this year, but that does not look too likely right 
now,Perhaps some publisher will pay for a second edition of "Man and Impact in 
the Americas".I am currently living in Vicksburg, Mississippi, the ancient home 
of the Yazoo people.

good hunting in the upcoming year - 
E.P.

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[meteorite-list] Hibbens apology, Paul?

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

I see where you have not modified your site to reflect that Hibbens 
observations of muck deposist from the 10800 BCE have been confirmed. 

While Hibbens is dead, I am not, at least not yet, And neither are you. So how 
about giving the old vet his props on this?
Cordially, 
E.P.

 

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[meteorite-list] Holocene Start Impact Events worknotes

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi all - 

Copies of my current worknotes on the Holocene Star Impact Events (and yes, 
there were two of them)may be had by emailing me for them. 

List members will remember hat I was the first person to write about the comet 
impact which killed off the Mammoth, some three year before Firestone published.

I do not have money enough to get to Tucson this yea, as the death of my lady 
friend of 15 years has cleaned me out
Good hunting, eveyone - 
.Ed
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[meteorite-list] another chance

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi all - 

To begin this short note, I want to thank the dealers who sold me the two 
little bits of Mars last year.
A very very limited sampling indicates they make a great addition to my 
metoorite show for young people.
Big eyes, and "Oh Wow!"'s and so on. Unfortunately, my lady friend of some 15 
years passed on last year, and the expenses of her passing mean that I am 
financially wiped our and will not be able to make any more purchases, as I am 
nor rich and famous yet. 

So what can you do to make me rich and famous? Let us review. When I first 
wrote about the Holocene Start Impact Event in "Man and Impact in the 
Americas", I received a lot of "stuff" for using Hibbens work, and I spent a 
lot of time on this list defending him and his work. We now know with certainty 
that I was exactly correct:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-16958-2.pdf

But did I myself get any recognition from those who had impugned Hibbens? Did 
those who wrote on this list ever admit on this list that they had been 
mistaken? The short answer is NO. 

Then Firestone Snr came along with his mistakes, and I sorted them out here on 
the list. Again, has anyone here said "Ed, you were right"? Did anyone here 
help me to become rich and famous? Well, we all know the answer to that 
question.

But good news! You now have yet another chance to correct your previous 
mistakes and to help me to become rich and famous. 

While the less gifted prattle on in their ignorance about the "Younger Dryas 
Impact", it turns out that there were two major impacts at the start of the 
Holocene:

https://youtu.be/TbM4vHcRyz0

In the future, let us call them by their proper name, the Holocene Start Impact 
Events, and let us all fully acknowledge the discoverer of both of them, Ed 
"E.P." Grondine. And please do send the documentary television producers my 
way, as I deserve to become rich and famous, even though I am not particularly 
photogenic or eloquent.

Furthermore, please do mention the production of gamma radiation in large hyper 
velocity impacts, along with a mention of the discoverer of this phenomenon, Ed 
"E.P." Grondine. And please do mention that Ed "E.P." Grondine is in the 
running for the Nobel Prize for spotting this.

Well, that's it. Life does not give us many second chances, but you all have 
yet another chance to make me rich and famous.

I hops to see you in Tucson next year, with money in my pocket from becoming 
rich and famous. 
See you there.

good hunting, everyone,
Ed


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[meteorite-list] 26 million year periodicity

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Pete - 

It looks to me like you missed Sterling Webb's note to the list on the 26 
million year stochastic periodicity of extinction events.If Stirling does not 
repost it, I could, as I turned it into a pamphlet which I gave out at the GSA 
a decade ago.
I am really beat and feeling like S***. Thankfully a normal flu and not the 
plague
By the way,there were some nice $10  small pieces out there, but I could not 
get paypal to workarghh,E.P.

Mass extinction researchers have been debating back and forth about the 
evidence for periodicity, for decades.  My take is, people who think they ought 
to be able to find a periodicity, do find it in their analysis of the data.  
Researchers who are skeptical of such a periodicity, find not much of a 
correlation in their analysis of the data.  I doubt that this one paper will 
settle the matter!
(Thanks for sharing the story!)

Pete Modreski

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[meteorite-list] Big news

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

https://news.yahoo.com/asteroids-arent-completely-random-mass-164014065.html
hello everyone - 

I was looking for a mention of Clube and Napier.And where is Stirling Webb in 
this?
good hunting everyone, 
E.P.

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[meteorite-list] The TWO clovis impact events

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul, all - 

Well, once again the Nobel committee did not send me any money this year.
That noted, there were TWO 14C spikes fro TWO separte impactsThe Peopling of 
The Americas:

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The Peopling of The Americas


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The problem is to back track from the outfows to the impact points.These were 
on ice, but if any of you manage to locate any remains, 
small donations for my meteorite show would be greatly appreciated.
Let's hope the vacine gets here soon, in time forTucson.good hunting, everyoneEd
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[meteorite-list] Tucson 2021

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi everyone, 

Hopefully there wll be a vaccine by then, but we will see.
Good hunting, everyone

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[meteorite-list] California fireball

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/1333071/meteor-video-california-asteroids-NEO-earth-space-n

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Meteor booms over California in stunning video - 'That was a close call'

Sean Martin

A HUGE meteor streaked in the skies above California, leaving onlookers stunned 
with one claiming it was "a clos...
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all the best, 
E.P.
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[meteorite-list] Meteorites in the news

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

meterRainbow colored meteorite may hold building blocks of life

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Rainbow colored meteorite may hold building blocks of life

Stacy Liberatore

A small, rainbow colored meteorite that fell over a village in Costa Rica last 
year may be harboring the buildin...
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[meteorite-list] Great Dismal Swamp - an astrobleme?

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul

I thin that the Great Dismal Swamp should be investigated asa possible 
astrobleme.

Origin of Lake Drummond and Great Dismal Swamp

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Origin of Lake Drummond and Great Dismal Swamp

Origin of Lake Drummond and Great Dismal Swamp
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There is a new impact sci-fi movie coming out, so things will get interesting 
again soon.I hope the JPL team is ready to do media.
Good hunting, everyoneEd

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[meteorite-list] Did Did impacts trigger tectonics?

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi all 
Well, well, well Along with the latest news on the royals, or Will and Kate to 
their friends, we get this from the Daily Mail 

Extra-terrestrial impacts may have shaped Earth, study finds

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Extra-terrestrial impacts may have shaped Earth, study finds

Stacy Liberatore

A study found that plate tectonics were triggered by intense bombardment of 
meteors 3.2 billion years ago -trans...






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now just where were those pictures of the middle aged actress in her bikini?


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[meteorite-list] Purchases of Martisns

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Everyone - 

Someday this will be over. I give meteorite shows to young people at powwows, 
and the current closer is that lunar I obtained at Tucson.(And will the 
Nininger birthday bash take place in February? Let's all hope so.)Given their 
low prices right now, I bought two small pieces of Mars on Ebay, 
one for me and one for my colleague Fletcher Wilson, who brings out his large 
homemade telescope and gives sky talksI think the young people will enjoy them.
Goo hunting everyoneEP
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[meteorite-list] "Younger Dryas" impact

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

You left out of your list my brief summary over on academia.
Despite the fact that I was the first to write about the comet impact that 
killed the mammoth and mastodon 
(2005, a full two years before Kennett and Firestone, and we all remember the 
ration of s**t I was fed here when they first published)
that happens a lot, as I think that it is not likely that the Carolina Bays 
were formed then.
For your information, gamma rays are produced in large hyper velocity 
impacts.There were two comet impacts at the start of the Holocene, and the 
gamma ray spikes from them coincide with the melt water pulses.Neither impact 
coincided with the Younger Dryas.
EP



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[meteorite-list] Two ancient near eastern iron impacts

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hello  everyone - 

I have a short paper up on academia on two ancient near eastern iron impacts.
It looks to me that it is likely that pieces of Comet Encke hit an iron 
asteroid, 
and that the fragments thereof hit the Earth.
Given SW3's transit into the inner solar system in 2022,I hope all the Earth 
based telescopes will be keeping an eye out then for a repeat.
good hunting, everyone,Ed
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Re: [meteorite-list] Evaluating the impact trigger hypothesis for the onset of the Paleocene-Eocene thermal maximum,

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

Just a reminder - my paper showing gamma rays produced by large impacts is over 
at academia.
I think it would be nice if someone gave me a physics prize with some cash, but 
sadly that is not too likely. 

good hunting, everyoneEP
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[meteorite-list] The last mammoths

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

You forgot to mention that Wrangel Island mammoth were about the size of large 
dogs.
good hunting, everyoneEd
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[meteorite-list] good news

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi all - 

let's see what happens to this link:
NASA Wants a New Space Telescope to Protect Us All from Dangerous Asteroids

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NASA Wants a New Space Telescope to Protect Us All from Dangerous Asteroids

NASA is pursuing a new space telescope tailored to spotting potentially 
hazardous asteroids.
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https://www.space.com/nasa-to-build-near-earth-asteroid-hunter-telescope.html
While 2025 is a good date, and a separate line item is essential,one problem is 
that we are going to be in Schwassmann Wachmann 3's debris stream in 2022.You 
all remember Moss and the other events of 2006.Let us hope that we're ready and 
things turn out well.
This has been a long hard fight.good hunting, everyoneEP



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[meteorite-list] Oh really?

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi all -

An Asteroid This Big Hadn’t Flown Close To Earth In A Century. Here’s How NASA 
Scientists Almost Missed It.

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An Asteroid This Big Hadn’t Flown Close To Earth In A Century. Here’s Ho...

"This one did sneak up on us," one NASA expert wrote in an internal email, two 
days after the football-field-siz...
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"This story also says to me that we have to keep up our good work of calming 
down asteroid rhetoric - city-killers, nukes, etc. I will reach out as well.”
Oh yeah - can't have trying to find that pesky shit from space interfering with 
the money for the big boys' toys.
Well, most people living on this planet would rather you take care of the 
pressing business first.Note the need for new CCD's for ATLAS, and the NEOcam.
Bridenstine's number for city killers, 1 per 1,000 years, was about spot on, as 
near as I can make out.
Ed
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[meteorite-list] Libyan Desert Glass

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

So there should be a nice crater there somewhere. Do you play with google earth?
E.P.
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Re: [meteorite-list] Coastal Chevrons

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

Of course, in the Carribesn you have the case where the wave was so large that 
it simply passed over an island. 
And then you have those pesky large marine sediment deposits to explain away.
Nice Try - 
Ed
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[meteorite-list] Holocene Star Impact Events

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul, all -
My worknotes on the Holocene Start Impact Events are now available via Academia 
edu.Everything else is flawed, in my humble view.

Aside from that, NASA is now using the 1 per 100 year estimate for small 
impacts,which pretty much coincides with what I could make out from the 
historical record.NASA is now going to handle this problem, under Administrator 
Bridenstine's excellent leadership.
We are also going to the Moon.
I may just sit back and watch. See you at the beach.

Good hunting all - 
Ed



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[meteorite-list] 14C spikes

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

Thanks for the news.

Gamma Rays are produced in large hypervelocity impacts, and this leads to 14C, 
10Be and spikes in other isotopes.
660 BCE is most likely from another impact rather than an outburst from our 
Sun, but those happen as well, of course.
I sure wish I had been able to get to Tucson.
good hunting, everyone - 

E.P.Man and Impact in the Americas
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[meteorite-list] The Holocene Start Impact Events

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

No mystery as to the climate- there were 2 Holocene Start Impact Events:The 
Peopling of The Americas

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The Peopling of The Americas

The Peopling of the Americas
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Both hit on the ice sheet, which is quite a coincidence. But nonetheless, that 
is what happened.Glad to clear that up for you.

Ed
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[meteorite-list] History of the fringe

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

Thanks for the link to the Velikovsky book, but I wrote a history of the modern 
fringe:http://www.danieljglenn.com/the_podcasts/Stelle/Documentation/He%20Walked%20Among%20Us%20Part%201.pdfhttp://www.danieljglenn.com/the_podcasts/Stelle/Documentation/He%20Walked%20Among%20Us%20Part%202.pdfhttp://www.danieljglenn.com/the_podcasts/Stelle/Documentation/He%20Walked%20Among%20Us%20Part%203.pdf
To sum up, essentially, what we're dealing with is recycled theosophist cult 
archaeology.
As you know very well, I am interested ine "recent" smaller impacts, If you 
could take some time to work through your databases for Atlantic Ocean 
tsunamis, it would be appreciated. Aside from that, the great Dismal Swamp 
looks very interesting. A dive in the center of it might yield fragments for 
sale.Then there ae the outflows forr the Yukon River and the Columbia.
That's the request list. How about an apology to Hibben?
all the best, 
E.P. 
Man and Impact in the Americas
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[meteorite-list] Latest on Alaska mucks

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul, all - 

I think this latest is very interesting:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-16958-2#Sec11

Of course, I am still waiting for your apology to Hibben.

PS - given the iron peppered bones, clearly there were major iron impacts in 
both Alaska and Siberia,
which should make for some very good meteorite hunting.

good hunting, all
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
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Re: [meteorite-list] Why Over 80% of All Life on Earth Was Wiped Out 250 Million Ago (Paul)

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

My guess is that this is going to be a replay of the Shiva impact and the 
Deccan traps.


In other news, China is interested in building CAPS:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/assets/7058.0/1498278.jpg

Note the structure with the laser on the left. The blob at its end is an 
artifact.

Someday real soon now my keyboard will stop bouncing.

E.P.
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Re: [meteorite-list] latest impact news

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Mattais - 

"Categorization as "fake news" would be a quick and inexpensive reaction to 
asteroids sized whatever."

As an individual who has specialized in impact events for about 30 years now,
I would like to point out to you that categorizing you as an idiot 
is a quick and inexpensive reaction to your nonsense.
Moving on to the article Paul sent us the link to,
the LSST is not going to provide any warning of what is to hit,
as what will hit will likely be too dim to be seen by any Earth based system
working in the optical range.
While NASA continues to avoid setting up the NEOcam,
China is working on CAPS.

Good hunting, everyone -E.P.

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[meteorite-list] China's NEO detection system?

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi everyone - 
China has released an image of its proposed International Lunar Research 
Station:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/assets/7058.0/1498278.jpg
You will notice the radar array shown in the background.
I suspect that this radar array is not designed for picking up signals from 
little green men.
Its wattage may be estimated from the solar cell arrays shown.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/assets/7058.0/1499229.jpg
Originally, the ILRS date was 2030, with launch by the Long March 9.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/assets/7058.0/1499227.jpg

But right now the Long March 8 is being looked at to compete with Musk's 
Falcon, and the Long March 9 may be delayed, if not abandoned altogether.
My estimate is ILRS launch by the Long March 8.

I am concerned that 
based on Comet Encke's pass through the inner solar system in 1628 BCE,
the pass of Comet Schwassmann Wachmann 3 in 2022 CE
may send NEOs our way.

Paul, you still owe Hibbens an apology.

good hunting, everyone,Ed
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Re: [meteorite-list] Roman meteorite coins

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Thanks to everyone for this fascinating bit of history -
The images on the coins are of great importance - 

good hunting everyone__

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[meteorite-list] Interenational Asteroid Day:

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

DON"T CRUSH THAT DWARF, HAND ME THE PLIERSE.P. Grondine

Why Hi Everyone -

As a historian, I want to take a few minutes to point out a few facts regarding 
Natham Myhrvold's
criticism of the NEOWISE team's work.

https://medium.com/@nathanpmyhrvold/myhrvold-guide-to-neowise-4866a2f7b76d

Fitst off, a few facts about Mr. Myhrvold's background as Chief Technology 
Officer
for Microsoft, facts which have immediate import for any analysis of Myhrvold's 
criticisms.

MYRHVOLD"S BACKGROUND

Going back in time, Steve Jobs hired Microsoft to produce a BASIC interpreter
and an early version of the Office productivity tools for his new Graphical 
User Interface operating system
for his McIntosh computer. Bill Gates immediately saw a good thing, and came up 
with his own
"Graphical User Interface", which we know today as Windows.

https://www.mac-history.net/apple/2011-01-30/microsofts-relationship-with-apple

Jobs was furious, as he had bought and paid for the earlier work from Xerox' 
Palo Alto Research Center (PARC),
and then further developed and implemented that interface for the control of 
other programs, all of which work
Gates freely helped himself to.

Now besides Apple, Gates also faced competition from IBM, which was working on 
OS2, an operating system which
IBM itself, and not Microsoft, would own, along with their own data bus for the 
286 chip, neither of which IBM thought
other computer manufacturers would have free use of.

ENTER NATHAN MYRVOLD

Faced with these threats, Gates needed to buy another operating system, an 
operating system to succeed the CPM clone
which he had bought earlier.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1997/05/12/the-microsoft-provocateur

"For Nathan Myhrvold, the life of Microsoft was changing nearly as rapidly as 
his own life had. Born in 1959 and reared in Santa Monica, California, he had 
been a boy without a boyhood. His brother, Cameron, who is twenty-two months 
his junior, recalled, 'He had to act the age of the other kids, who were 
older'—a result of his having skipped four grades of public school. Finishing 
high school at fourteen, Myhrvold went to Santa Monica Junior College, then 
transferred to U.C.L.A., where he majored in math and received a master’s 
degree. Then he went to Princeton and earned another master’s degree and his 
Ph.D. At Princeton, he met his future wife, Rosemarie Havranek, a Bronx-born 
graduate student in Romance languages.

"Stephen Hawking, of Cambridge University, offered Myhrvold a postdoctoral 
fellowship, and Myhrvold held it for a year, beginning a friendship that 
continues to this day. But in 1984, needing money for his family, and enticed 
by a venture capitalist who wanted to back a computer-software project that he 
had worked on as a graduate student, Myhrvold took a leave of absence and 
became, at the age of twenty-four, president of Dynamical Systems Research. 
With Cameron and three other people, he set up shop in the attic of a house in 
Berkeley, California, and developed a simple software system that in 1986 
caught I.B.M.’s attention.

"Myhrvold also caught Microsoft’s attention: the company was desperate to keep 
I.B.M. from abandoning its commitment to Microsoft software. Bill Gates agreed 
to purchase Dynamical Systems Research for $1.5 million in Microsoft stock. (It 
is now worth two hundred and sixteen million dollars; Myhrvold’s current stock 
holdings and options are worth about two hundred million dollars.) Myhrvold 
relocated to Seattle and went to work for Microsoft as director of special 
projects. His first task was to write a memo. His colleagues got used to his 
ideas and to the memos, typed at a manic pace, as they did to his high-pitched 
giggle—“somewhere between Santa Claus and an evil dwarf,” one colleague says." 
[I'd go with the "evil dwarf" part of this.]


Who actually first wrote that "initial software project" that Microsoft bought 
from Myhrvold is currently unknown.

At first, both Apple and Microsoft were both facing a real problem with font 
technologies owned with perfection by Adobe,
and jointly co-operated to come up with their own True Type Fonts as a work 
around substitute for Adobe's intellectual property. But then Scully managed to 
seize control of Apple from Jobs, and Jobs then went into the workstation 
market with NEXT, using the Graphical User Interface work of Apple, which 
further weakened Apple's legal position. [This was in addition to Scully et. 
al. milking the MacIntosh for all the money that they could.]

Under Myhrvold as Chief Technology Officer, (although courts ruled in 
Microsoft's favor, largely on technicalities and the lack of previously 
developed computer intellectual property laws {a direct result of IBM's 
antitrust problems),
Microsoft further infringed on Apple's intellectual property with its Window's 
3.0 operating system. 

[[1997 - "Microsoft invested 150 million dollars in 150,000 Apple stocks and, 
according to certain rumors, paid further 100 

[meteorite-list] Asteroid Day:NASA management tries to avoid their responsibilities yet once again

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul, list -

As it is International Asteroid Day, let us examine how NASA management is 
trying yet once again to avoid launching the NEOcam:

1.1 Identify opportunities in existing and planned telescope programs to 
improve detection and tracking by enhancing
the volume and quality of current data streams, including from optical, 
infrared, and radar facilities.
Existing and planned space situational assets, INCLUDING COMMERCIAL SYSTEMS,  
might  also  contribute  to  
NEO  detection  and  tracking.  Where  possible,  a  cost/benefit analysis  
should  characterize  these  opportunities  
in  terms  of  how  they  would  reduce  overall uncertainty  in  NEO  impact  
risks.  [Short  term;  NASA,  National  Science  Foundation  (NSF),  United 
States Air Force (USAF)]

This started with Griffin sitting on JPL's request for the NEOcam back in 2006.
Griffin and his colleagues have never been held responsible for their Act of 
Contempt of Congress.

My current guess is that the US will end up buying our planetary defense system 
from China,
just as we buy so much else from them. 

After all, it appears it would be cheaper to buy it from them than to buy it 
from NASA.

How's that for a cost/benefit analysis?

PS - As you are a geologist, someday you might want to take a look at the 
current impact mega-tsunami studies
being carried out by the geologists working along the US Atlantic Coast.

E.P.



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[meteorite-list] R: Dinosaurs, and dinosaur artifactss

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

"The past is never dead. It's not even past."
Well, let's hope so anyway.
Since Brindenstine did meet with Lu and B612,perhaps NASA will now spend money 
looking for the next piece of "s**t from space" (tip of the hat to Richard  
Norton) 
headed our way, instead of searching for little green mens' home world.

If dinosaur ever learned to knap, then their tools would have survived.
None found yet, but who knows?

E.P.


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[meteorite-list] Neutralizing hydrazine

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Mike, all -

"Sales of all hydrazine-contaminated, Chinese space debris are hereby
suspended until further notice": p)
Here's what I am using, over at nasaspaceflight.com:
LIVE: TianGong-1 JSLC CZ-2F (T1) launch September 29, 2011, and future events

| 
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LIVE: TianGong-1 JSLC CZ-2F (T1) launch September 29, 2011, and future e...

LIVE: TianGong-1 JSLC CZ-2F (T1) launch September 29, 2011, and future events
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but I am sure that list members have better resources than that.
Since this is going to be non-fatal man made impact,I am enjoying it.
By the way, Paul, not all cosmic dust is from the usual meteorite flux.Some of 
it comes from impacts.

E.P.




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Re: [meteorite-list] Neutralizing Hydrazine?

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

 
Hi Dirk - 
Meteorite hunters regularly saw up meteorites with high nickle content.
This nickle poisons their brains and regularly produces bizarre brain function.

Yeah, the peroxide is what I found with a quick search.
As far as "getting anywhere near materials from Tiangong-1",given "their" 
travel times, "any fall site on land" will likely be arrived at by others 
before "they" can declare it "off limits". "They" also have absolutely no 
skills in dealing with local land owners.
Take along a couple of cameras, and who knows, you might get a few pictures of 
"them".And you might be able to sell those pictures for some nice change.

Moving on:

> BTW- Any and All of Tiangong-1 is property of the People's Republic of China 
> and under international law must be returned to China if found, i.e. if you 
> find something "significant" you will likely be met by U.S. Marshalls, XYZ, 
> etc. and forced to return the "finds".
Wouldn't standard international salvage laws apply?Now that China has wealthy 
collectors, I assume the laws of the market may likely come into play as well.
As has been pointed out before, "It is glorious to be prosperous!"
good hunting, everyone,E.P.









On Thursday, March 22, 2018, 9:55:22 PM EDT, David Mouat 
<dave.mo...@dri.edu> wrote:  
 
 Extremely unlikely that any hydrazine would be left.

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 22, 2018, at 4:34 PM, drtanuki via Meteorite-list 
> <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>
> Ed and List,
>
> E.P. Grondine asks,
>
> "So how do you neutralize hydrazine?"
>
> The answer to your first question about neutralizing hydrazine see below ( I 
> personally think that this is way to DANGEROUS for any meteorite hunters to 
> be doing and should be left to military or properly trained HAZMAT team.).
>
>
> Safety and Handling of Hydrazine - Defense Technical Information ...
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https:dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/p005339.pdf=E,1,-N58HI1cOCWh8JZZUZBmC_DcsARBA4-TdhBAUDnueBvJw3ZnDvq_KlSTt-lgXN_eW4YSt-j08t2Qp8IRPuXDm2uBRFnrJJfWXGBDEk9AaOSqQA3WderP7cBr=1
> by DK Simpson - ‎1986 - ‎Cited by 2 - ‎Related articles
> water and will eventually consume all of the hydrazine, producing only 
> nitrogen and water. Use of a dilute oxidizer solution will speed up the 
> neutralization reaction. An aqueous solution (5% or less) of sodium 
> hypochlorite or calcium hypochlorite (prepared from swimming pool dry 
> chlorinator) or dilute hydrogen peroxide.
>
> E.P.'s second question-
> "Anything else to be wary of?" There may be radioactive material aboard the 
> craft.  It would be a good idea to use a Geiger Counter to check for safety 
> prior to handling any material IF found.
>
> The likelihood of any civilians getting anywhere near materials from
> Tiangong-1 as slim as any fall site on land will be off limits if it located.
>
> BTW- Any and All of Tiangong-1 is property of the People's Republic of China 
> and under international law must be returned to China if found, i.e. if you 
> find something "significant" you will likely be met by U.S. Marshalls, XYZ, 
> etc. and forced to return the "finds".
>
> Dirk Ross...Tokyo
>
>
> 
> From: E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
> To: Meteorite List <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 4:42 AM
> Subject: [meteorite-list] Neutralizing Hydrazine?
>
>
>
> Hi all -
>
> With Tiangong comind down, is anyone here planning to hunt for pieces?
>
> Usually, the spacecraft pieces hunters find have been exposed to water for a 
> long time,
> but this time that will not be the case, assuming that Tiangong comes down in 
> a searchable area.
>
> So how do you neutralize hydrazine? Anything else to be wary of?
>
> good hunting, all,
>
> E.P.
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[meteorite-list] Neutralizing Hydrazine?

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi all - 
With Tiangong comind down, is anyone here planning to hunt for pieces?
Usually, the spacecraft pieces hunters find have been exposed to water for a 
long time,but this time that will not be the case, assuming that Tiangong comes 
down in a searchable area.
So how do you neutralize hydrazine? Anything else to be wary of?
good hunting, all, 
E.P.
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[meteorite-list] Clube and Napier

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

These new papers you fed us are somewhat besides the point:Clube and Napier's 
coherent catastrophism, and recent small cometary impact sutdies.As coherent 
catastrophism could not have been developed before isotopic dating,the 
historical studies are somewhat besides the point.Further , using the word 
"catastrophist", usually associated with Velikovsky's nonsense,really is an 
effort to belittle modern impact research.
IN today's other news, we learn that bad estimates of the asteroid population 
were fed to us,and that the problem is worse then previously estimated.

As I have stated before, if your own income was dependant on locating 
astroblemes 
from the 2 Holocene Start Impact Events, then your formidable talents would be 
more 
usefully employed.

In other news, NASA still hss not launched the NEOcam.

E.P.
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[meteorite-list] An on list apology is necessary, part 2

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Paul - 

Thanks for clearing that up,and thank g*d you are not the only geologist 
working in North America.
Let us see where we are. 
NASA is no closer to launching the NEOcam, 
than they were after it was spiked by Griffin back int 2005.When I started out 
on this, both GeneShoemaker and Rep. George Brown Jr. were alive,and I expected 
NASA to handle this within about 3 yearsBut NASA set a new low, right there 
with Challenger, Columbia, and the SLS.
Now, in a futile effort to avoid dealing with their responsibilities, 
NASA trots out the second stringer Mark Boslough.

In the meantime, the cranks are taking over the field. 
Not only Hancock, with his one advanced race,but on Ancient Aliens last Friday 
I learned that1) Ancient Aliens had used impact events to destory 
faulty Alien-Humaan hybrids, and2) Ancient Aliens gave warnings of impacts.
Any guess as to whose work will be used by them?

I also regularly read about the asteroid that killed off the dinosaurs.and get 
to see some folks try to redefine asteroids to include comets.

About the only good news is that NASA decided that David Morrisonshould handle 
the mail from the Zachary Sitchin fans.
Now as far as me personally, and my competence to deal with oral materials,I 
worked through European oral materials in both Arthurian Britain and 
HomericBronze Age before you were born. 

The usual practice by European colonists such as yourself
has been to treat Native American oral traditions as trash.Nonetheless, they 
were here when your ancestors first arrived 
and had been here for a long long time before that..That they remembered an 
event that killed off about 95% of their ancestors 
should come as no surprise.That you should belittle their memories should come 
as no surprise either.

By the way, I do not share some Native American meteorite lore 
with many people to prevent grave robbing.
E.P. GrondineMan and Impact in the Americas
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[meteorite-list] Gloating, Part 4

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Paul, I am still not satisfied with your apology to Hibbens.
I was appaled to read Alan Harris sharing his ignorance of the recent work on 
the Holocene Start Impact Events 
with NASA management , encouraging them in their attempt to avoid launching the 
NEOcam.Let us take a look at this fool's bragging:

Well, this got started with a paper in 2007 by Firestone, et al. (PNAS 104, 
16016-16021, 2007).  Ironically I'm sitting in a meeting at NAS HQ in 
Washington as I write this.  Curiously, many of the long list of authors of 
that original paper are the same as the most recent papers, but more or less 
inverted in order (first author of the current paper, Wolbach, was the last 
author of the 2007 paper).  Equally curiously, the evidence promoted in the 
respective papers has also gotten rather inverted, in my perhaps cynical 
opinion because the leading evidence offered in 2007 has been largely 
discounted, and what is now being promoted were minor points in the earlier 
paper, not previously examined as thoroughly.  We'll see where the current 
round leads.
Cheers,
Alan

These articles were discussed at some length on MPML on Feb. 3, when
they came out in the Journal of Geology.  The claims being made have
been discussed at great length by Mark Boslough, who was inspired to
join MPML as a result.  Perhaps he will comment further now.
Alan
Yep, NASA is funding this second stringer working at Sandia instead of the 
physics pros at Berkeley and Los Alamosas part of its futile effort to avoid 
its responsibilities to the people of this nation.
Now, Paul, as you know full well who all has become involved in this research 
since 2007,a list which includes nearly everyone working at an archaeological 
site from this period,as well as multiple geologists, perhaps you might be man 
enough to point out in an exhautive and comprhensive manner 
that Alan is simply lying here.
In other words, do some really useful work with that geological database engine 
of yours.

E.P. GrondineMan and Impact in the Americas
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[meteorite-list] gloating, part 2

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Paul. I am not satisfied with your apology to Hibbens.yet.He deserves better 
from you.I
E.P.

Message: 6Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 06:09:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul 
Subject: [meteorite-list] Alaskan Muck (Mucks), Tsunamis,    and Hibben
    Revisited (Long)
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Message-ID: <561951.62760...@web36205.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Mr. Grondine wrote;

"Thanks for the references to the post war research,
but I think you overstate your case."

Anyone, who takes the time and trouble to read through what 
is called above " post war research", instead of mindlessly 
dismissing it as "baffling BS" will find that what you "think" 
is absolutely wrong. These publications provide overwhelming 
evidence and arguments that show that I have not overstated 
the case for the so-called Alaskan being composed largely of 
eolian sediment, called "loess", and colluvial and other 
deposits reworked from it and the complete lack of either any 
megatsunami deposits or layers composed entirely of impact 
ejecta. 

You continued:

"Surely no archeological remains from 2 to 3 million
years ago are in the deposits which I refered to, and
which Hibbens examined.

Given that Hibben (1943) studied "?muck deposits exposed in the 
grounds of the Fairbanks Exploration Company in the vicinity of 
Fairbanks, Alaska.", it is quite clear that he did not limit his 
examination to only those Alaskan "muck deposits", which contained
archaeology. Some of the peat layers (paleosols), which are 
mentioned in Hibben (1943) likely are tens to hundreds of thousands 
of years old. The youngest known "forest of trees", which occurs 
buried in the deposits, which Hibben studied, is the Eva Forest Bed. 
This bed has been dated as being about125,000 years old (Pewe et al. 
1997).Thus, you are quite wrong about Hibben having only examined 
so-called "Alaskan muck deposits" containing archaeology. Lacking 
any sort of radiometric dating to guide him, Hibben (1943) wrongly 
assumed that all of the so-called "muck deposits", which he was 
studying, are young enough to contain archaeology. 

References

Hibben, F. C., 1943, Evidences of Early Man in Alaska.
American Antiquity. vol. 8, no. 3, pp. 254-259.

Pewe, T. L., and others, 1997, Eva Interglaciation Forest
Bed, Unglaciated East-Central Alaska: Global Warming
125,000 Years Ago. Geological Society of America Special
Paper no. 319, Geological Society of America, Boulder, CO.

You continued:

"The strata that I refered to did have archaeological
remains. They were also the source for the mega-fauna
ivory that was used commonly in the United States for
the manufacture of billiard balls and piano keys at
the turn of the last century."

Your distinction between Alaskan surficial strata containing 
archaeological deposits and those that do not contain them 
completely is a complete figment of your imagination. The
parts of the Engineering and Fairbanks loesses and Ready 
Bullion Formation, which contain archaeological deposits, 
are identical in texture, sedimentary structures, pedogenic 
(soil) structures, cyrogenic structures, stratigraphic layering, 
composition and other physical characteristics to the 
underlying and older parts of these formations, which lack 
archaeological deposits. If a person reads the papers, which 
I provided citations for in my last post, they will find that
there is a complete lack of any significant scientific evidence, 
which demonstrates that your distinction between the surficial 
strata containing archaeology and older strata, which lack 
them, has any scientific basis. These citations, all of which I 
have either read at one time or the other, can be found at:

http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2007-June/035570.html

In fact, if person takes the time to look at what has been published
about the archaeological geology of cultural deposits found in these
deposits as reported in the peered-reviewed literature and Cultural 
Resource Management reports, he or she will find that I am not at
all overstating the case to conclude that there is a complete 
absence of any definite textural, stratigraphic, compositional, or 
sedimentological evidence for any of the archaeology-bearing 
deposits being of impact origin. Instead, a person find in these
publications an abundance of data and observations, which 
repeatedly demonstrates that these surficial deposits consist of 
eolian deposits, called loess, which have been modified by
colluvial, pedogenic, and other processes. One of these 
publications is:

Esdale, J. A., Le Blanc, R. J., Cinq-Mars, J., 2001, Periglacial geoarchaeology 
at the Dog Creek
site, Northern Yukon.
Geoarchaeology. vol. 16, no. 2, pp. 151 ? 176

This article provides a perfect example of the colluvial deposits 
and loess, which have been disturbed by solifluction, frost heave, 
and cryoturbation, which comprise the deposits, which you and 
other claim to be the 

[meteorite-list] Gloating, part 3

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Paul, I am not satisfied with your apology to Hibbens yet.It is not fair 
practice in geology to point to something other than 
the formation the original researcher saw, and claim it was what he saw.That is 
simply bad practice, and highly unethical, and you need to own up to it.
>From my point of view the whole of the Hibbens affair makes for an interesting 
>vase study of how science can go wrong.
Paul, I expect a statement from you of your own failure analysis as necessary 
act of contrition.

E.P.



Message: 1Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 09:01:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul 
Subject: [meteorite-list] Alaskan Muck, Tsunamis,    and Hibben Revisited
    Part 4 (Long)
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Message-ID: <977612.23637...@web36213.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

Alaskan Muck, Tsunamis, and Hibben Revisited Part 4 (Long)

Note: my previous post in this series can be found at:
http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2007-June/035570.html ,
http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2007-July/036230.html ,
http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2007-August/037069.html ,
and http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2007-August/037320.html

In the post, ?More Muck from Paul? Mr. Grondine stated:

?Sorry for the diversion from meteorites to impacts.
Why?

What you're being treated to here is the heated
repetition by Paul of the arguments against man 
having arrived in the Americas before Clovis as 
well as those arguments against a catastrophe.

Here Mr. Grondine shows himself to be hopelessly confused and 
ignorant of what I have written as I have never made any arguments 
?against man having arrived in the Americas before Clovis?. Nowhere, 
as falsely claimed above by Mr. Grondine, in my previous post, do I 
argue against that early man arrived in North before Clovis. If he 
would bother to closely read what I wrote, he would find, I just stated
that there are no Paleo-Indian points older than Clovis. The fact of 
the matter is that contrary to the above assertions to the contrary, I 
have no disagreement with people, who argue for the presence of 
PreClovis human occupation of North America. 

In my last post, I clearly stated:

?Although (sic) there artifacts older than 13,000 
BP have been found in the New World, none of 
them are the type of Pale(o)-Indian artifacts, 
which Hibben (1943) discussed having found
in Alaska.?

The above statement plainly shows that I acknowledge the existence
of artifacts older than Clovis, which by mine and anyone?s definition
would be regarded as being ?PreClovis?.

Mr. Grondine continued:

?We've already been through the use of Hibbens 
data by other catastrophists who had imaginary 
catastrophic physical processes, and the reaction 
by the scientific community.
We now move on to the field of anthropology. 
Hibbens was the first to discover pre-Clovis 
points (at Sandia), and thus was particularly 
attacked by those who posited no earlier 
peoples than those who produced the Clovis 
points.?

It is true that there existed a very heated controversy over the 
presence of early man in North America before Clovis at the
time that Hibben excavated Sandia Cave. The ultimate problem with 
his research, was that Hibben?s excavations at Sandia Cave were so
poorly organized and badly documented and his reports on Sandia 
Cave are so full of contradictions and inconsistencies that he simply
failed to make a convincing case for the antiquity of his Sandia 
Culture. The fact that his colleagues caught him sending bone 
samples, from a paleontological site many miles away from Sandia
Cave, for radiocarbon dating as if they came from Sandia Cave, as
discussed by Preston (1995), certainly raised questions about, at the
best, inexcusable sloppiness of organization on his part, which 
allowed him to mix samples from very different sites in his analyses
to, at  the worst questions about his honesty. This and many other 
contradictions by Dr. Hibben in his publications and statements 
discredited himself, not only among the proponents of ?Clovis First?
of which I am not one, but also among the archaeologists, who are 
proponents of a PreClovis occupation of North America, with 
which I greatly sympathize. The question is not whether there are 
PreClovis Sites, but how much older than Clovis sites they are.

Reference Cited:

Preston, Douglas, 1995, The mystery of Sandia Cave. The New
Yorker. vol. 71, pp. 66-72 (June 12, 1995)

Douglas Preston is a journalist, who lacks either any personal 
opinion, grant money, tenure or professional stake, which would
bias his opinion in the PreClovis controversy.

?Unfortunately for the Clovis First argument, 
there are sites with hard dates showing pre-
Clovis (Meadowcroft and Bluefish Cave sites 
for the Iroquoian peoples; and Pedra Furada 
for the Savanah River peoples). But these
artifacts and radio-carbon dates are not the 
deciding point: the undeniable and 

[meteorite-list] We; ; researched, well documented, and way wrong: gloatting part 1

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi all, - 

Mt Grondine here to do a little gloating

Message: 5Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:32:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul 
Subject: [meteorite-list] The Imaginary Mucks of Alaska and Siberia
    was    "Arrowheads from NWA"
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Message-ID: <20070611153243.84348.qm...@web36207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

In the post "Arrowheads from NWA", Mr. Grondine wrote:

?The impact that produced the Alaskan and Siberian 
mucks, and altered the north Pacific currents, and the
world's weather, are covered in my book "Man and
Impact in the Americas".?

One major problem is that the so-called "Alaskan and Siberian 
mucks" exist only in the very vivid imagination of various 
catastrophists, i.e. Deloria (1997), Hapgood (1970), and 
Velikovsky (1955). Over the last sixty years, numerous papers
have shown that the descriptions of the so-called "Alaskan and
Siberian mucks" by Hibben (1942, 1946) and Rainey (1940) are 
grossly incorrect and completely refuted the interpretations, 
which they have made of their catastrophic origin. 

A typical description of muck is:

"In Alaska, for example, thick frozen deposits of 
volcanic ash, silts, sands, boulders, lenticles and 
ribbons of unmelted ice, and countless relics of late 
Pleistocene animals and plants lie jumbled together 
in no discernible order. This amazing deposit, 
usually referred to as 'muck', has been described 
by Dr Rainey as containing: '... enormous numbers 
of frozen bones of extinct animals, such as mammoth, 
mastodon, super bison and horse, as well as brush, 
stumps, moss and freshwater molluscs (281)'."

It has now been proved that such descriptions are nothing more 
than imaginative fiction, which have been soundly refuted by 
over 50 years of research and numerous peer-reviewed papers 
and monographs, which have been published by the Quaternary 
geologist, who have studied these deposits for decades.

As proved by numerous published peer-reviewed papers and 
monographs, including Berger (2003), Bettis et al. (2003), 
Guthrie (1990), McDowell and Edwards (2001), Muhs et al. 
(2001, 2003, 2004), Pewe (1955, 1975a, 1975b, 1989), and 
Westgate et al. (1990), the claim that these deposits consist 
of  "thick frozen deposits of volcanic ash, silts, sands, boulders, 
lenticles and ribbons of unmelted ice, and countless relics of 
late Pleistocene animals and plants lie jumbled together in no 
discernible order" is false. Instead, as described in numerous 
publications, specifically Guthrie (1990), Muhs et al. (2003), 
Pewe (1955, 1975a, 1975b, 1989), and Westgate et al. (1990), 
the deposits, which are often referred to as ?Alaskan muck? 
consist of a well-ordered, layer-cake sequence of stratigraphic
units containing distinct paleosols and buried forests with in 
situ tree stumps. As seen in Figures 20 and 29 of Pewe (1975); 
Figure 4 of Pewe et al. (1997); and the measured sections of
Westgate et al. (1990), the so-called ?muck? consists of well-
defined geologic layers, which are only jumbled where the 
surface has been disturbed by either thermokarst, landslides, 
solifluction, or some combination of these processes. The total 
thickness of the Quaternary deposits, which have been designated 
as ?muck? is only 10 to 20 m (33 to 66 ft) as their thickest, 
which become thinner upslope.

Satrting with Pewe (1955), Quaternary geologists have recognized 
the presence of 7 well-defined stratigraphic units, which the 
deposits that are falsely described as being ?jumbled together 
in no discernible order?. Some of these stratigraphic units, i.e. 
the Ready Bullion Formation, Engineer Loess, Goldstream 
Formation, Gold Hill Loess, and the Fairbanks Loess, consist
of silt, which have been demonstrated to consist of a combination
of  wind-blown silt called "loess" and sediments moved down-hill 
by slopewash and solifluction. Some stratigraphic units, i.e. the 
Dawson Cut and Eva Formations, contain buried, in situ forests 
that are rooted in "fossil" soils, which are called ?paleosols?. 
Other stratigraphic units , i.e. the Tanana Formation, Fox 
Gravel, and Cripple Gravel, consist of gravels, which often 
contain gold and demonstrated to have been deposited by 
streams (Bettis et al. 2003; Pewe 1955, 1975a, 1975b, 1989; 
Pewe et al. 1997; Westgate et al. 1990; Muhs et al. 2001, 
2003, 2004).

In addition, the contacts between these stratigraphic units are 
well-defined, persistent, and easily mappable. The forest beds, 
ice-wedge casts, and buried soils, which are found associated 
with the contacts demonstrate the periods of nondeposition 
lasting thousands to tens of thousands years occurred between 
the deposition different stratigraphic units. They soundly 
refute the claim that the ?Alaskan muck? accumulated during a 
single catastrophic event. Even within individual stratigraphic 
units, paleosols can be found indicating that the accumulation 
of sediments comprising 

Re: [meteorite-list] Internet levels of dosagreement

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

You may want to reflect carefully about your comments on Hibbens' work and 
character.I myself am not entirely satisfied with your earlier "somewhat muted" 
acknowledgement of error.
E.P.Man and Impact in the Americas
PS - I have not posted any adds to the list for a long time.I saw some used 
copies of my book via amazon 
at price levels that are unlikely to ever be seen again. 
You you may want to consider investing in them now, 
before the new impact tsunami work is published.
__

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Re: [meteorite-list] KT volcanism

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Sterling - 

I believe I can save you some money. The Baptista hypothesis fell through.
That is not too surprising, as a very intelligent person once gave me this 
listwhich appears to confirm Clube and Napier's cometary injection hypothesis:

PREDICTED EXTINCTIONS 
(27,000,000 PERIOD):
11 mya: Miocene, Serravillian
38 mya: Eocene, Bartonian
65 mya: KT Extinction
92 mya: Cretaceous, Turonian
119 mya: Cretaceous, Aptian
146 mya: Jurassic, Tithonian
173 mya: Jurassic, Aalenian
200 mya: Triassic-Jurassic Boundary
227 mya: Triassic, Carnian
254 mya: Permian, Wuchuapingian
281 mya: Permian, Artinskian
308 mya: Carboniferous, Moscovian
335 mya: Carboniferous, Visean
362 mya: Devonian, Famennian
389 mya: Devonian, Givetian
416 mya: Silurian-Devonian    
    Boundary
443 mya: Ordovician-Silurian 
 Boundary
470 mya: Ordovician, Dapingian
497 mya: Cambrian, Furongian

ACTUAL EXTINCTIONS:
14.5 mya: Middle Miocene Disruption 
  (off by 3 my)
33.9 mya: Late Eocene Extinctions 
  (off by 4 my)
65 mya: KT Extinction.
93.5 mya: Cennomanian-Turonian 
  (off by 1.5 mya)
117 mya: Aptian Extinction (off by 2 my)
145 mya: End Jurassic: often considered 
 regional only (off by 1 my)
183 mya: Toarcian Turnover (off by 10 my)
200 mya: Triassic-Jurassic Extinction (spot on)
228 mya: Carnian Extinctions? Questionable,  
  supported, iirc, by Benton (off by 1 my)
251 mya: PT Extinction (off by 3 my)
260 mya: Guadelupian Mass Extinction 
 (off by 6 my)
Devonian extinctions: one damned thing after another for a period of 20 to 30 
million years...
360 mya: Carboniferous-Devonian Boundary/  
 Hangenberg Event (off by 2 my)
375 mya: The Frasnian-Famennian/
    Kellwasser Event (off  by 13 my)
420 mya: Lau event (off by 4 my)
423 mya: Mulde event (off by 7 my)
426 mya: Irevikean event (off by 10 my)
443 mya: Ordovician Mass Extinction (spot on)

I hope everyone is enjoying Tucson, 
best wishes,Ed
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[meteorite-list] Will somebody in Tucson please put together another Meteorite Men TOV show?

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi all - 

I wish I was there to enjoy it, but I'm headed back to the field here, so 
perhaps next year.Given all of the new specimens flooding the market right now, 
(and boy do I wish I as there with cash in my pocket to take advantage of the 
current low prices)the prices need to go back up to finance the meteorite 
hunters.
The best way I can think of building the market is by a new television show.I 
have long thought that shows could be put together from existing videos and 
photos of earlier hunts,but hie would require co-operation.
Good sales,all
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[meteorite-list] Photographs of Hibbens at Fairbank Mucks

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

https://1f9hwg1wionh254zdu2abfkg-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/cosmic-tusks-in-nature.pdf

With the recovery of these photographs, Hibbens' wife's diary, and Geist's 
fossils, will you now consider retracting all of your comments on Hibbens'  and 
his research?
E.P.



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Re: [meteorite-list] First Contact

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi everyone - 

Can you imagine the ratings for television shows from another intelligent 
species?All television shows on Earth would just have to hang it up.
This is pretty far from meteorites, though - 
except for the fact that any ET will either have learned to deal with the 
impact hazard,or would not have made it.

good hunting,E.P.
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Re: [meteorite-list] Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis and Missoula (Spokane) Megafloods (Paul)

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

Thanks for the links to the new paper.A few notes:1) If you remember, fast 
neutrons are produced in large hyper velocity impacts.If you do not remember 
that fast neutrons are produced in large hyper-velocity impacts, 
you can always watch my YouTube video on the "Peopling of the Americas".
This being the case 10Be production is going to be affected as well,and thus 
the 10Be dates given in the paper will have to be looked atfor calibration 
problems.
2) If you remember, there were TWO impact events at the start of the 
Holocene,so the interval between them can be used as a check on those 10Be 
dates.
If you do not remember these TWO impact events, you can read the materials 
here:
http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewtopic.php?f=9=3656
and here:
http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewtopic.php?f=9=3668
3) I will be working my way through this paper in detail,but it looks like the 
first flood lines up roughly with the first impacton the ice sheet, shown in 
the first link above.

While the Coderilla may have been slightly affected,You seem to think that a 
rise in Pacific Ocean temperatures led to 
general melting of the ice sheet. 
My hypothesis is that the earlier warm Pacific Current led to 
warm moist air over Canada, 
which in turn led to snow, 
which in turn led to the reflection of solar energy back into space,which led 
to the Earth cooling.
Thanks for not lumping me in with Hancock and Collins,nor asking me to defend 
their works in any way.
good hunting,Ed
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Re: [meteorite-list] Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis and Missoula (Spokane) Megafloods

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

Option 4) While I have thought that the Kitscoty Uplift was generated by an ice 
sheet impact 
during the most recent glacial cycle,because if it was from an earlier glacial 
cycle it would have been scoured away,
THIS NEW DATA IN NO WAY AFFECTS THE OTHER RIVER OUTFLOW DATA.
In other words, I may have to continue the search for impact pointsfor the TWO 
impact events.

5) This new data also has to agree with the glacial lake data.
As the data always wins in the end,thanks,Ed

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[meteorite-list] Deaths of Mammoths

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

Thanks for the link to the latest papers.
In evaluating the radio carbon data,remember 
!) that it appears that fast neutrons are produced in large hymperveolcity 
impacts 
2) there were two separate impact events at the start of the Holocene.

The Peopling of The Americas

  
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   |

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The Peopling of The Americas
 The Peopling of the Americas  |   |

  |

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Once more,ThanksEdGood hunting, everyone
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[meteorite-list] Cost /benfit analysis of impact hazard

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

The Right Price for Defending Against Asteroids

  
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   |

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||  
The Right Price for Defending Against Asteroids
 By Bryan Walsh Spending $50 million a year is a pittance.  |   |

  |

  |

 

good hunting, 
Ed
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Re: [meteorite-list] Populrlar article on impact risk

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

How do we keep ignorant assholes like the author of this piece from sharing 
their stupidty with the public?
E.P. GrondineMan and Impact in the Americas
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Re: [meteorite-list] Volcanoes, Not Impacts, Caused End Triassic Mass Extinction

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

May I suggest looking for a large impact event as the trigger 
of those volcanic eruptions?
It has been known to happen.
good hunting,everyone - 
Ed
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[meteorite-list] Tennessee Impact Structures

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 
Thanks for your note.
I suppose that given the ages of these craters,the only way to determine 
exactly what hit in each case will be through the use of tektites.
best wishes - EP
BTW, someone sent me a nice rock anonymously through the mail, and I want to 
thank them here for their gift.__

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Re: [meteorite-list] Papers on Holocene Start Impact Events

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

200 and they have not even got to the first of the two impact events.


http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewtopic.php?f=9=3656=rise+in+sea+levels

http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewtopic.php?f=9=3668


edededhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbM4vHcRyz0=4s

Well, Paul, there will be a whole lot more of them, but I myself am going to 
move on to an impact mega-tsunamis and an air burst -  except for the fast 
neutron production in large hyper velocity impacts.

goo
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[meteorite-list] My video on the Holocene Start Impact Events

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi all - 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbM4vHcRyz0=9=PLQFjoWZeHDMQln37vSd1heFOfte_O_Rhp

The Meteor Crater impact is also covered.

The real question now is how fast neutrons are produced in large hypervelocity 
impacts.

by the way, in my opinion, if the government of Morocco taxed meteorite 
exports, it might make searching in the US profitable again
also, imo, somehow we need to have Meteorite Men on TV again..

good hunting,
Ed
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[meteorite-list] Another Native American Myth of teh Holocene Start Impact Events

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

MEWAN ACCOUNT OF THE HOLOCENE STAR IMPACT EVENTS

>From "The Dawn of the World", by C. Hart Merriam, 1910;
http://www.3rocks.org/publications/Dawn ... _World.pdf

"These tales were told me by the Indians of a single stock, the Mewan, the 
tribes of which are confined to central California
and have no known relatives in any part of the world. They have been little 
visited by ethnologists and during the few
years that have passed since the tales were collected, several of the tribes 
have become extinct.
"The myths are related by the old people after the first rains of the winter 
season, usually in the ceremonial roundhouse and alwaysmat night by the dim 
light of a small flickering fire. They constitute the religious history of the 
tribe, and from time immemorial have been handed down by word of mouth; from 
generation to generation they have been repeated, without loss and without 
addition."

Four different peoples' traditions were given in the book,
all of whom had related languages by this point in time.
The book is difficult to read, as sometimes the terms sometimes translated, 
other times not.
I am sure it will find popularity with the fringe, as it mentions "star women", 
who they will undoubtedly understand as "ancient aliens", and is located near 
Mount Shasta.


KE'-LOK AND HIS ROUND-HOUSE
Ke'-lok and his Han-na'-boo

[Note that in the following, Wek'-wek, O-let'-te, and Ke'lok all become 
celestial beings.]

When Wek'-wek and O-let'-te were out hunting one day they went to Tah-lah'-wit 
the North
and came to a rocky hill where they saw a great and powerful giant named 
Ke'-lok,
sitting by his han-na'-boo or roundhouse.
Wek'-wek flew close to him and saw him well.

That night, when they had gone home,
Wek'-wek said to O-let'-te,
"Grandfather, I want to play al'-leh (the hand-game) with Ke'-lok." 11
When O-let'-te heard Wek'-wek say he wanted to play the hand-game with Ke'-lok,
O-let'-te laughed and said,
"You! play hand-game with the Giant Ke'-lok!"
"Yes," answered Wek'-wek, "I want to play hand-game with Ke'-lok."

Then his grandfather told him that Ke'-lok was his elder brother.
"All right," said Wek'-wek, "I'm going to play the hand-game with my brother."

KE'-LOK'S PLACE WAS AT TAH-LAH'-WIT, THE NORTH.
WHEN WEK'-WEK SET OUT TO GO THERE,
HIS GRANDFATHER O-LET'-TE HAD TOLD HIM TO PLUCK OUT AND TAKE WITH HIM ONE OF 
HIS FATHER'S LONG WING-FEATHERS AND
STAND IT UP ON TOP OF KE'-LOK'S ROUND-HOUSE SO IT COULD BE SEEN A LONG WAY OFF.
O-LET'-TE SAID THE FEATHER WOULD STAND SO LONG AS WEK'WEK WAS ALIVE,
BUT IF HE WAS KILLED IT WOULD FALL.

[This "feather" was most likely a comet's tail.
Note that Ke'lok's round house was in Tah-lah-wit, the north.
This comet was likely different than Comet Encke;
perhaps another chunk of Comet Giacobini-Zinner.]


[THE FIRST IMPACT]

After a while Wek'-wek arrived at Ke'-lok's round house,
and when Ke'-lok came out, said to him,
"Brother, I have come to play hand-game with you."

"All right," answered Ke'-lok,
and he at once built a fire and put eight round rocks in it
and heated them until they were red hot.
Then Ke'lok said, "My young brother, you begin first."
"No," replied Wek'-wek, "I want to see you play first; you begin."
"All right," said Ke'-lok,
and he immediately sprang up and darted up into the sky,
for he was great and powerful and could do all things.
As Ke'lok went up into th4e sky he made a loud noise.
Then he came down in a zig-zag course,
and as he came down he sang a song.

Then Wek'-wek began to throw hot rocks at him
but he purposely missed him, for he did not want to kill his brother.
His grandfather O-let'-te the Coyote-man, called out to Wek'-wek from the south
that if he hit Ke'-lok in his body it would not kill him,
but that his heart (wus'-ke) was in his arm,
under a white spot on the underside of the arm,
and that if he hit that spot it would kill him;
that was the only place on his body where a blow would kill him.

Wek'-wek answered, "I can easily hit that, but I don't want to kill him."
So he threw all the hot stones but he took care not to hit the white spot under 
Ke'lok's arm.
When Wek'-wek had fired all the rocks he picked them up
and put them back in the fire to heat again.

Then it was Ke'-lok's turn.
When Ke'-lok was ready, Wek'-wek said,
"All right, I will go now," and he shot up into the sky making a great noise,
just as Ke'-lok had done.
Then Wek'-wek came down slowly, singing a song,
and came toward Ke'-lok's roundhouse.
Then Ke'-lok began to throw the hot rocks at him and tried hard to hit him.
But Wek'-wek dodged them easily and called out to O-let'-te his grandfather:
"He can't hit me unless I let him see me - let him hit me"-
for he thought he would not really be killed, believing that the magic of 
O-let'-te would keep him alive.

So Wek'-wek let Ke'-lok hit him with the last rock.
Ke'-lok did hit him and he fell dead.
Then Ke'-lok picked him up and hung him on his round-house.

[THE SECOND IMPACT]

While the 

[meteorite-list] What killed off megafauna?

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Rob, Doug - 

(Glad to hear that you're doing okay, Doug)  

What both of you need to do is to take the perspective of a potential impactor 
passing through the inner solar system,
as seen in the first few seconds of this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDrBIKOR01c

The basic geometry of the problem is set out here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTDcfI2dabk

If it makes it easier,
think of the Earth-Moon system as a pair of girls at a darkly lit party, 
and yourself as a young man.
(A variant of the famous mathematical problem of the drunk's walk at the frat 
party.)
While you may be attracted to the "prettier" (in terms of gravity/area) Moon,
you are far more likely to run into her much larger "wingman", the Earth.
Sorry, but that is just the way it is.

At first, you're getting a warm fuzzy feeling (gravity) from the combined 
Earth/Moon system.
That warm fuzzy feeling varies by the cubes of the radius of each of the two 
bodies, 
and is located somewhere amongst them.

On your approach to the Earth/Moon system, you see your landing area (for only 
part of the month, see second video) 
in terms of area, which varies by the square of the radius. 
But of course gravity also varies by distance, 
so as you get close to theses two 
you're getting far more of that warm fuzzy feeling from the Earth,rather than 
the Moon. 
You head that way. 

You can use any computer language you prefer to model this system, 
and run it on any machine you like.
But as a check on your computer model, you have to rely on the data.
In this case, compare the data on smaller impactors from the Moon, 
(Apollo seismic and optical astronomy)
with the data from the reconnaissance systems which have been operating 
on the Earth since the 1950's, 
and "alarming" the "stuff" out of those looking at the data from them.

If there is a difference between your model's results and the data, then your 
model is defective.
 
(An entertaining video on phonetic loading,
the diameters of lunar craters,
typing monkeys, and other natural phenomena:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCn8zs912OE)

good hunting, 
E.P.

PS - Will NEOcam make meteorite hunting far easier?
Will the increased supply drive down prices even further? 

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[meteorite-list] What killed off megafauna?

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

Two of the impact events are now pretty well known:

http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewtopic.php?f=9=3656
http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewtopic.php?f=9=3668

Of course, work is just beginning on the sequence of impacts for South America 
and their 
related meltwater pulses.

It is really strange to watch the psychological process of denial going on here.
I wish I had just a small part of the money spent on this denial for more 
research into what actually occurred. 

Or better yet, have your personal salary dependent on actual impact research.
That would certainly focus your own fine skills. 

BTW, you can not use impact data from the Moon in a straight line to estimate 
the 
impact hazard for the Earth. 

The Earth usually protects the Moon from impactors.

E.P.
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[meteorite-list] Kinig Tut's Dagger

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

HI all - 

And of course see Karen Reiter's Metalle in die Alte Orient.

(Bernd - can you fix the spelling and give the complete citation?)

good hunting, all
E.P.

PS - I hope I have located an individual to search the Dismal Swamp feature.
While the prices for small pieces have gone down, I assume the prices for large 
specimens are holding.
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[meteorite-list] Mexico Doug Okay?

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi all - 

I am just getting to my mail. How is Doug doing? 
What the hell happened?

Since "Meteorite Men" feel to $#!t, (geoff, Brenheim steve?)
I have thought that a new meteorite show is needed.
Certainly the real life adventures of you meteorite hunters should interest 
viewers.

goo hunting, all,
Ed

BTW, as some very cheap used copies of "Man and Impact in the Americas" have 
been showing up on amazon,
some of you may wish to invest in them now.
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Re: [meteorite-list] Image of possible recent impact crater

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Anne - 

The hill appears on the left, not the center.

Yes, hills can be mistaken for craters in aerial imagery.
And yes, not all circular features are from impacts.

That said, this one looks suspicious, and there are meteorite hunters
on the list who live in South America. 

good hunting, all 
E.P.




On Thu, 2/25/16, Anne Black <impact...@aol.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Image of possible recent impact crater
 To: epgrond...@yahoo.com, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Date: Thursday, February 25, 2016, 2:12 PM
 
 What crater, EP??
 
 On page 327, right under the
 picture it says: 
 "The walls of a
 community’s sectorial fallow system radiate from the top
 of a hill".
 
 
 Anne M. Black
 www.IMPACTIKA.com
 impact...@aol.com
 
 
 -Original
 Message-----
 From: E.P. Grondine via
 Meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
 To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
 Sent: Thu, Feb 25, 2016 11:47 am
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Image of possible
 recent impact crater
 
 Hola,
 amigos - 
 
 For an image of
 the possible crater, see page 327 here:
 
 https://www.sas.upenn.edu/anthropology/system/files/EricksonLentzvol.pdf
 
 good hunting, everyone - 
 
 E.P.
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[meteorite-list] Image of possible recent impact crater

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hola, amigos - 

For an image of the possible crater, see page 327 here:

https://www.sas.upenn.edu/anthropology/system/files/EricksonLentzvol.pdf

good hunting, everyone - 

E.P.
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[meteorite-list] Possible recent impact crater?

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi all - 

If you take a good look at Lago Umayo near Puno, Peru,
you will be able to see its very circular form.

This is in the Andes Cordillera, between the mountain ranges, 
an area which as I understand it is not volcanic

Perhaps a trapped pocket of very early hydrocarbon gas may have exploded there, 
but the lips of the lake and the slope do not look like it to me.

The erosion does not appear to be too severe, which leads me to suspect a
geologically recent date.

Co-incidentally, the first new studies of meltwater release from the Andes
during the period of the Holocene Start Impact Events have just come out.
 
good hunting, all - 
E.P.
Man and Impact in the Americas

who hopes someday to make it back to Tucson
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[meteorite-list] Graham Hancock's new book is not all that bad

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi all - 

Graham Hancock's new book is not all that bad.

He has big stones (Gobekli Tepe, the Pyramids, Baalbek, some in south east 
asia, and Tiwanaku).
(Believe me, big piles of dirt do not work.)

For Christians in need of material evidence to support their faith, he has 
Noah's Flood.

There are three sections of color plates, and fine illustrations.

Of course, Hancock lumps all pleistocene mariners together, as well as elliding 
impact events, 
but not as badly as many have.

Using "ancient precessional astronomy".Hancock sets a maximum period of danger 
from 1980 to 2040, well after he's dead.
The usual process is to make people afraid and then sell them their fears.
But instead of that, fortunately Hancock really lights into NASA,
and they truly deserve it, as we can handle this problem.
Further it looks like Hancock's PR campaign is working quite well.

One problem with it, though,is that the maximum danger may likely be as early 
as 2022-2023.

Cheap used copies of my own Man and Impact in the Americas, of which Hancock 
was and is oblivious, and which has far more impacts than Hancock's book, are 
available through amazon. I suggest taking your money and collecting several 
today, and then borrowing a copy of Hancok's book from the library.

(BTW - Perhaps the Romans set the extremely large stones around the Temple of 
Jupiter as an effort to hold it still in earthquakes. 
Also, perhaps the pillars at the Sphinx Temple were originally painted with 
hieroglyphic inscriptions,
)


E.P. Grondine
 
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[meteorite-list] The Tale of the Huron Meteorite Collector

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

THE TALE OF THE HURON METEORITE COLLECTOR


To understand this story, you have to know the Huron (Wendat, Wyandot) word for 
bollides and meteorites, which are White Panther and "ya' gg'^cra'" 
respectively.

"Allen Johnson gave the following explanation as to the nature of the White 
Panther being: these beings, for there are several of them, are supposed to 
have originated in the northern polar regions and to travel in the air from 
north to south. From time to time, they alight here and there, making a kind of 
light when they come down. They are said to drop a round magical stone {ya' 
gg'^cra') when they want to break the solid ice and get into the water. 
Whenever this magical stone hits the earth, a thundering clash may be heard. In 
former days some men whose ears were keen and experienced could detect the 
presence of these panthers. 


XLII. The Ground-Squirrel and the Flying Panther. 

(Related in English by Allen Johnson, in May, 1912, at Wyandotte, Oklahoma. 
Johnson stated that he had heard this myth often recited by late James 
Armstrong,"Hariwa'kyg^de' —, Smith Nichols, and his mother. A briefer version 
of the same myth has been recorded in text, Mrs. Catherine Johnson acting as 
informant. Allen Johnson's version was recorded before that of Mrs. Johnson. 
That the monster [uki] was the Ground-squirrel was not remembered by Allen 
Johnson, but is inferred here from the explicit statement in Mrs. Catherine 
Johnson's telling of the same tale.) 

"On their way home twelve men traveled many days in the woods. They were tired. 
As they had to rest and gather provisions for the rest of the journey, their 
leader selected a place where they might pitch camp. When they returned from 
their hunt that night, each of them related his experiences as to what he had 
seen and killed while in the woods. 

One of the hunters, however, remained silent and would not say anything. The 
leader requested him to speak out and relate his adventures, as he was the only 
one left who had not spoken. So he replied that he had really found something, 
a tree that had been claw-marked, and wherein, no doubt, an animal was 
dwelling. But, to his mind, the animal was not a bear. When pressed by the 
chief to explain his thoughts, he added that, in all likelihood, it was an uki 
(Uki': it-is with "power"; that is: a being gifted with 'mana' or 'power.'), 
and that they had much better go away without disturbing it. {This tale likely 
goes back to the Pleistocene, when short faced bears and giant beaver lived. 
The uns and bullets are likely much later substitutions for iron spear points.] 

The leader held a kind of council at which it was decided to investigate the 
matter. The fellow advising them not to tease the animal having thus been 
overruled by the majority, showed the others to the spot. The tree in which the 
giant squirrel being had his abode was hollow from top to bottom. A 
neighbouring tree was felled against it, and used as a ladder to climb upon. As 
was the custom, the fellow who had first made the find was appointed to climb 
the leaning tree and look down into the hollow one. So he did, and having 
dropped something into the hole in order to drive the animal out, he gave the 
alarm, exclaiming, "Run for your lives! It isn't a bear; its eyes are fiery!" 
All the men began to run homewards. 

Coming out of his den, the monster chased them. The other man did not move from 
the tree on which he had climbed; and he heard the gun reports of each of his 
friends when they were just about to be killed by the giant squirrel. He knew 
that they were all dead when the last gun report came to his ears. 

He felt that he had better run away in the opposite direction. After having run 
for some time, he came to a steep cliff by a pool. There he saw a man standing 
upon the ledge of the rock, who told him not to be afraid. "I came here to help 
you," said he, "and I will fight the monster." He also gave him instructions 
regarding the animal that was on his trail, adding, "When you see that my body 
is covered with blood and that I am losing ground in the fight, dip some water 
[from the pool], pour it on me, and I shall thus be enabled to win the battle." 
For this purpose he gave him a bark cup. 

As the battle was about to begin, the protector of the man who had run away 
transformed himself into an animal. The man grew so intensely excited over the 
fight between his protector and the ground squirrel that although he saw the 
friendly animal dragged around by the other and almost overcome, he forgot for 
a while all about the instructions he had received. Suddenly they came back to 
his mind; and no sooner had he poured some water on his friend, than he saw him 
refreshed and regaining strength. 

When the battle was won, the man thanked his protector, who told him what he 
really was. "I am the White Panther, flying in the air like a blaze." 

And he added, "Now go home and bring the best and swiftest 

[meteorite-list] Graham Hancock's new book

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

Thanks for the great news! 

Hancock's failure means that there is still hope that my own book on the 
Holocene Start Impact Events 
could become an international runaway best seller. 

http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewtopic.php?f=9=3656

http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewtopic.php?f=9=3668

I might get to it right after my sci-fi opus on the back contamination problem 
from a manned flight to Mars.
That book will start when the cast of The Martians turns up dead in Earth 
orbit, 
and proceeds to the organism eating all of the Earth's biosphere,
moving on to the surprise ending - everybody's dead.

For anyone interested in real history and real science, personlly signed copies 
of Man and Impatc in the Americas are available from me,
or you can buy a used copy for around $20 through amazon.

Has anyone ever worked out NASA's neo detection budget in terms of percent of 
its annual budget?
I have trouble with all of the "0"s after the "." now.

E.P. Grondine
Who some people want to believe was not a reporter, and is not a historian

PS - Since no astronomical phenomenon accounts for the sudden spurt in 
construction ca 360 BCE at Serpent Mound, 
it most likely simply indicates that the Andaste moved their serpent from 
another site to there.

My thanks to everyone who helped me to work that problem.
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[meteorite-list] Drift of Draconids

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

HI all - 

It seems clear that there was something celestial that led to the construction 
at Serpent Mound
around 360 BCE.

Since it could not have been today's Draconids, since they did not exist then, 
as Marco politely pointed out,
(and sorry for my stupidity there), could it have been either:

1) that Giacobinni Zinner had just entered our solar system, and was very 
bright, as it had not outgassed, and was visible periodically in 
Draco?, or

2) that another chunk of 21P had been sent earthward? or

3) there was a nearby supernova visible in Draco?

Has anyone read any unaccounted records of celestial phenomena in Draco from 
this period?
Anything from China or the ancient near east?

As the solstices could have been marked in other ways, why did they use was 
Draco?

Thanks for your patience and tolerance,
Ed

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[meteorite-list] Drift of Draconid Radiant

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi all - 

For the last several years, I have been speaking at Serpent Mound:

http://ancientearthworksproject.org/1/post/2014/07/new-radiocarbon-dates-suggest-serpent-mound-is-more-than-2000-years-old.html

Originally and abysmally, this structure was dated by Brad Lepper to the 1066 
CE appearance of Halley's Comet.

It appears clear from the structure itself that it was meant to reflect the 
constellation Draco, 
although Its builders the Andaste were genocidally exterminated 
before any detailed record was made of their astronomy. 

While the weather here in Ohio usually prevents viewing the Draconids, 
it appears they would be visible a month or a month and a half earlier at the 
time this site was first cleared, 
sometime after 1,000 BCE or so. 
Note especially the later construction ca 360 BCE.
We currently have no idea what triggered that.


Draco's radiant's location has implications as far as Gobekli Tepe's 
alignments. 
Has the Earth been hit by trwo cometary streams in the last 15,000 years, both 
Giacbinii Zinner and Encke?
In other words, precisely how bad is the cometary impact hazard?
Has the recent rate of cometary injection been high, or is this normal?

E.P. 
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Re: [meteorite-list] Drift of Draconid Radiant

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Mike - 

I hope I am not spoiling anyone's source here, but 

Your go-to guy for Serpent Mound geological specimens is Tom Johnson of the 
House of Phacops.
He can also provide local fossils.

IMO, there is a whole lot of BS that is spouted as regards the ceremonial 
complex there.

That said, the EMF there at the impact epicenter is high enough to disorient 
migrating birds, 
and interfere with electronic circuits, including those of the human brain.

I hope to put my and my colleague Fletcher Wilson ( one of Ohio's leading naked 
eye astronomers)
pamphlet into e-book from someday.

E.P.


On Wed, 11/4/15, Galactic Stone & Ironworks <meteoritem...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Drift of Draconid Radiant
 To: "E. P. Grondine" <epgrond...@yahoo.com>
 Cc: "MPML" <m...@yahoogroups.com>, "Meteorite List" 
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
 Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015, 8:33 PM
 
 Hi EP and
 List,
 I have been fascinated lately with the folklore
 surrounding the Serpent Mound crater. My interest was
 triggered by receiving a batch of Serpent Mound breccia
 chunks which I cut and sold. (still have some
 available).
 I have never visited the site, but if I ever
 find myself in that neck of the woods, I will certainly pay
 a visit.  Hope to see you there one day.  :)
 Best regards,
 MikeG 
 On Nov 4, 2015 8:28 PM,
 "E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
 wrote:
 Hi all
 -
 
 
 
 For the last several years, I have been speaking at Serpent
 Mound:
 
 
 
 
http://ancientearthworksproject.org/1/post/2014/07/new-radiocarbon-dates-suggest-serpent-mound-is-more-than-2000-years-old.html
 
 
 
 Originally and abysmally, this structure was dated by Brad
 Lepper to the 1066 CE appearance of Halley's Comet.
 
 
 
 It appears clear from the structure itself that it was meant
 to reflect the constellation Draco,
 
 although Its builders the Andaste were genocidally
 exterminated
 
 before any detailed record was made of their astronomy.
 
 
 
 While the weather here in Ohio usually prevents viewing the
 Draconids,
 
 it appears they would be visible a month or a month and a
 half earlier at the time this site was first cleared,
 
 sometime after 1,000 BCE or so.
 
 Note especially the later construction ca 360 BCE.
 
 We currently have no idea what triggered that.
 
 
 
 
 
 Draco's radiant's location has implications as far
 as Gobekli Tepe's alignments.
 
 Has the Earth been hit by trwo cometary streams in the last
 15,000 years, both Giacbinii Zinner and Encke?
 
 In other words, precisely how bad is the cometary impact
 hazard?
 
 Has the recent rate of cometary injection been high, or is
 this normal?
 
 
 
 E.P.
 
 __
 
 
 
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 Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 
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[meteorite-list] Changes in radiants over time

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

HI all - 

This author, Bard Marsden, is claiming that the radiant of the Taurid Meteor 
Stream
has drifted over the millenia:

https://sites.google.com/site/fromthedeepoceanabove/

Based on the mythological evidence he has assembled, this may be likely, but 
what would be the mechanics involved?

E.P. 
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[meteorite-list] Water on Mars?

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi all - 

I am NOT following the Mars imaging suite parameters closely, 
but I have a question for your consideration:

Do the new images really demonstrate water on Mars, 
or could they instead be showing the yearly cycle of 
hydrocarbons delivered to Mars by cometary impact?

In all of the press releases, I have seen no mention of 
Nick Hoffman, who pointed out these streaks years ago, 
and was the first to do so, to my knowledge.

He tied them to clathrates.

EP

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[meteorite-list] The Holocene Start Impact Event

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hello everyone - 

Let me draw you a picture:

http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewtopic.php?f=9=3656

http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewtopic.php?f=9=3668

goo hunting - 
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
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[meteorite-list] Preview: Graham Hancock's ne2w book

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul, all

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3230040/Best-selling-author-Graham-Hancock-argues-cosmic-explosion-soon-strike-Earth.html

E.P.
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Re: [meteorite-list] The Holocene Start Impact Event

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul, all - 
(and Hi Sterling)

Hi Paul- thanks for your note.

Now, let me draw you a picture:

http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewtopic.php?f=9=3656

In the future, for this impact event, please refer to the Holocene Start Impact 
Event,
and refer to the Grondine Minima, 
the one that does not exist in the last glacial cycle.

As to the breaching of the ice dams on the western glacial lakes at what is now 
called the YD, 
and the outflows thererof, and exactly where those out flows went, 
that will be along shortly.

I have to attend a judging of West Virginia domestic arts, 
and meet with some @$$#0!3$.

good hunting all, 
(and a few bars of Oh Canada to the hunters up north)

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas


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[meteorite-list] Graham Hancock on the YD impacts

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul, all

A preview of fall TV shows:

http://sacredgeometryinternational.com/graham-hancock-and-joe-rogan-discuss-randall-carlsons-paradigm-changing-research

I never heard of Randall Carson - has anyone here heard of him?

To my knowledge, the FIRST suggestion that the YD impacts may have triggered a 
release of Glacial Lake Missoula 
was made by me to the meteorite list several years back in regards to 
Assiniboine memories of what occurred. 

Aside from that, there was not one advanced culture that was displaced or 
destroyed, as theTheosophists cult archaeologists would have it, 
but many, at different times and different places.

For the modern theosophist cult archaeology industry, see

http://www.danieljglenn.com/the_podcasts/Stelle/Documentation/He%20Walked%20Among%20Us%20Part%201.pdf

http://www.danieljglenn.com/the_podcasts/Stelle/Documentation/He%20Walked%20Among%20Us%20Part%202.pdf

http://www.danieljglenn.com/the_podcasts/Stelle/Documentation/He%20Walked%20Among%20Us%20Part%203.pdf








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Re: [meteorite-list] Charon

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi all - 

I may be mistaken, but it looks to me like Charon was peppered with roughly 30 
meter 
cometissimals like those perhaps responsible for the 5 kiloton air blasts that 
occurred at Rio Curaca 
and Rupunini in the last century.

Good hunting,
E.P.


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Re: [meteorite-list] All impact craters found

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi everyone - 

I read today in the news that all of the impact craters have been found.

I suppose that all of your can stop hunting now,
and Paul can spend all of his time working on the Kitscoty structure.

good hunting, 
E.P.



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Re: [meteorite-list] All impact craters found

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Dirk - 

I don't know bout that particulare hole in the ground.

The report does not mention ocean floor craters, nor impact-tsunami chevrons.

Here's a few more jokes to brighten your day:

Perhaps the story was promoted by Linda Billings, NASA's own very new impact 
specialist.

You may never have heard of her before. 
I certainly haven't.
If anyone here is familiar with her earlier work in impact studies, then please 
let me know
I wouldn't want to not know about them
Perhaps she is our anonymous leading Chinese physicist.

It could be that NASA management is afraid that if Don Yeomans is allowed to 
talk publicly 
he might bring up that space based neo-detection telescope he requested 10 
years ago.

As it is, it looks to me from the spin being put on the GAO reports,
the G*D D F Mars Nuts want Dr,Morrison to take it over, 
and are trying to set Don up.

It may be that they still have not given up try8ng to get the neo-detection 
effort assigned somewhere else in the Federal government, such as the NSF.

I wonder how they'd feel about Meiser from WISE taking over?

Did you ever hear the one about the ASTOEROID that killed the dinosaurs?
Or the one how that the only major ASTEROID impact in the last century occurred 
in 1908 at Tugunska?

Or the one about how seldom COMETS or COMET FRAGMENTS hit?

Here's a real howler: 
perhaps the human species is so dumb 
that a whole lot more people will die 
before they remember anything.

good hunting, everyone
E.P.






On Wed, 7/1/15, drtanuki drtan...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] All impact craters found
 To: E.P. Grondine epgrond...@yahoo.com, 
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Date: Wednesday, July 1, 2015, 1:06 PM
 
 E.P. Grondine,  LOL! 
 What hole in the ground made that statement? 
 Perhaps the writer hasnt noticed the one in his/her
 head?...the yet undiscovered. Thank you for the laugh. 
 Back to Mucks and Omarolluk,
 
 
 Dirk Ross...Tokyo 
 The
 Latest Worldwide Meteor/Meteorite News 
http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/
 
 
 - Original Message
 -
 From: E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc: 
 Sent: Thursday, July 2,
 2015 1:50 AM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list]
 All impact craters found
 
 Hi
 everyone - 
 
 I read today in
 the news that all of the impact craters have been found.
 
 I suppose that all of your can
 stop hunting now,
 and Paul can spend all of
 his time working on the Kitscoty structure.
 
 good hunting, 
 E.P.
 
 
 
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Re: [meteorite-list] Changes In 14C and Impacts

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Sterling, Paul, List - 

Re: Date of Kitscoty structure

Since there have been many ice ages, it seems to me that if the Kitscoty 
structure was more 
ancient than the most recent ice age, it would have been scoured away. 

Hence the timing of its formation would seem to agree with the documented water 
releases. 

Please remember that this may have been the first impact of a piece of Comet 
Giacobinni-Zimmer.

The 10,850 BCE impacts were likely to have been the second impacts of pieces of 
this comet.
But refining these dates and aligning them with cometary dynamic orbital models 
is well beyond my current computational abilities.

Re: Changes in 14C and impact

If I remember correctly, it was a leading Chinese nuclear physicist 
(unidentified by name 
in the paper) who first discussed the production of 14C in comets. 
Comet composition may be one factor in the 14 C loading.

But if we look at the InCal charts, we can see a dramatic change in 14C 
associated with the Meteor Crater impact, which we know was produced by he 
impact of an iron asteroid.

Hence my hypothesis that in hyper-velocity impacts, some of the photons reach 
gamma ray energy levels and release neutrons. If this is so, then the area 
around Meteor Crater may show or may not show some unusual isotopes, 
depending on their half-lives.

good hunting, everyone
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas








On Mon, 6/29/15, Sterling K. Webb sterling_k_w...@sbcglobal.net wrote:

 Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Changes In 14C and Impacts
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc: 'E.P. Grondine' epgrond...@yahoo.com, 'Paul H.' inselb...@cox.net
 Date: Monday, June 29, 2015, 11:07 AM
 
 Paul, Ed, List,
 
 The village is actually named
 Kitscoty.
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitscoty
 
 
 Kitscoty is named
 after a village in
 Kent (U.K.) with a famous
 stone
 megalithic structure, so while
 Googling 
 for a Kitscoty Structure you have
 to 
 distinguish which Kitscoty and what 
 kind of structure is meant.
 http://albertacommunityprofiles.com/Profile/Kitscoty/2
 
 The structure
 referred to is a proposed 
 rebound plateau of an impact south
 of 
 Kitscoty, Alberta, Canada:
 http://www.meridianbooster.com/2009/03/18/did-a-massive-meteor-touch-down-he
 re
 
 I don't
 know (and am not going to Google 
 myself to
 death finding out), but I recall 
 that
 Hudson Bay and the Canadian 
 Shield is very
 old crust, at least 2.0 to 
 2.5 billion
 years old. 
 
 It is bound to
 have evidence of a great 
 many impacts in
 that long time span, 
 but most, of ancient
 age. Plus, the 
 Canadian Shield has been
 scoured by 
 every ice age for billions of
 years, over 
 and over and over again. Only
 evidences 
 that can survive that will be
 found.
 
 With typical human
 short-sightedness,
 most theories of any
 explanation of a
 feature in Northern Canada
 are always
 referred to the last Ice
 Age, which is 
 only the last few
 million years, while 
 the Shield is
 immensely more ancient 
 and has been exposed
 for BILLIONS of 
 years.
 
 Northern Canada contains a great
 many craters; see:
 http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/02files/Earth_Images_09.html#Steen
 
 I can suggest another very
 ancient crater:
 the south-southeastern coast
 of Hudson
 Bay, above James Bay is a portion
 of
 a perfect circle and it has a nice
 cluster 
 of islands at the geometric center
 of 
 that circle like the remnants of central
 
 peaks. I've always thought that it
 could 
 be what's left of a very, very 
 ancient
  astrobleme. See map
 at:
 http://www.worldatlas.com/aatlas/infopage/hudsonbay.htm
 
 It's very suggestive. But
 evidence? I
 know of none.
 
 Sterling Webb
 --
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Meteorite-list [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com]
 On
 Behalf Of E.P. Grondine via
 Meteorite-list
 Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2015
 10:53 AM
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Changes In 14C and
 Impacts
 
 Hi Paul - 
 
 Thanks for the link to that
 paper.
 
 I am looking forward
 to your comments on the Kiscoty structure.
 
 My guess is that the depth of
 the ice sheet may be estimated from the height
 of the rebound, but I am incapable of
 performing detailed calculations from
 any
 formula you may know of.
 
 My
 working assumption is that nearly all of the energy released
 from the
 initial blast went into different
 processes which  melted the ice sheet -
 such as the infra-red,  the boiling water
 returning to Earth, the hot impact
 dust
 returning, etc.
 
 E.P.
 Grondine
 Man and Impact in the
 Americas
 
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[meteorite-list] Changes In 14C and Impacts

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

Thanks for the link to that paper.

I am looking forward to your comments on the Kiscoty structure.

My guess is that the depth of the ice sheet may be estimated from the height of 
the rebound, but I am incapable of performing detailed calculations from any 
formula you may know of.

My working assumption is that nearly all of the energy released from the 
initial blast went into different processes which  melted the ice sheet - such 
as the infra-red,  the boiling water returning to Earth, the hot impact dust 
returning, etc.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

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[meteorite-list] WHAT OCCURS IN A LARGE HYPERVELOCITY IMPACT ON AN ICE SHEET? PART 3

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hola Listeros -

Four weeks ago, we pointed out that a major rise in sea levels and a major 
change in climate occurred well before the dates for what is widely and 
mistakenly called the Younger Dryas Boundary impact event. 

Three weeks ago we pointed out a geobleme in Canada that may or may not be 
associated with the Holocene Start Impact Event.

Two weeks ago we returned to consideration of the question of What occurs in a 
large hypervelocity impact on an ice sheet?, and traced the water release.

This week we take a look at other climatic effects.

First off, there was not a persistent atmospheric dust load.
The larger mega-fauna survived the Holocene Start Impact Event, 
only to die from starvation due to the much later impact dust loading ca. 
10,850 BCE.

As ice appears to have been hit and not the ground, it is to be expected that 
what would be released would be water, and not dust from the ground.
That would leave the dust from the impactor(s), but this would have been 
precipitated out of the atmosphere by the water vapor released in the impact(s).

The best current map of impactites from this cometary encounter may be found 
here:
http://www.uc.edu/news/NR.aspx?id=17831

Which map most likely elides the data from the impacts of several comet 
fragments, 
impacts which occurred at different times during the Holocene Start Impact 
Event.

Of course, the initial impacts of the Holocene Start Impact Event would have 
covered a fair part of the ice sheet with black dust,
which would have absorbed sunlight and led to ice melting.

Those melting waters, both initial and later, would have led to the further 
dispersal of the impactite dust.
Without further coring and detailed studies, the map of impactites shown above 
is known a priori to be of very limited use.

Which leads us back to consideration of the missing Grondine Minima, which we 
discussed earlier:

We can see that the last ice age lacked a maxima of cold:
http://www.climate4you.com/images/VostokTemp0-42%20BP.gif

Let us call this missing minimal temperature the Grondine Minima. 
The discontinuity with earlier glacial cycles begins at about the same time as 
the first spike in neutrons between 20,000-10,000 BP.

Global Temperature:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/pubs/alley2000/alley2000.gif
http://s90.photobucket.com/user/dhm1353/media/Holocene-1.png.html

Since atmospheric dust lading from an ice sheet impact 
could not account for continued melting, 
What accounts for the continued ice sheet melt, 
and the creation of Glacial Lake Agassiz?

The best hypothesis we have been able to come up with involves this mechanism:
http://www.chesapeakequarterly.net/images/uploads/siteimages/CQ/V12N4/p-7a.png

When cold water was released into the Pacific Current,
it lead to less warm moist air over the ice sheet.
That in turn led to less snow and ice,
which led to more sunlight being absorbed,
which led to further melting.

Later impacts may have released meltwater:
see slide 18 here for the timing of meltwater pulses:
http://slideplayer.com/slide/2808821/
Especially and carefully note that these are PULSES, and not continuous 
processes. 

se also slide 34 for a detailed pollen series for Eastern North America, in 
particular the data for the Ohio paleoclimates.

(For your viewing pleasure - an introduction to isolation and precession:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRdyNn1tB-Eindex=1list=PLmen0eQI4-Lof_GS8Amc9sysdRMrRYzps)


good hunting, all - 
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas



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[meteorite-list] THE HOLOCENE START IMPACT EVENT: WHAT HIT

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hola Listeros - 


While Bill Napier has proposed that Comet Encke was involved in these events:
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1003.0744.pdf

The anthropological evidence indicates that it was yet another comet,
Giacobini-Zimmer, the progenitor of the Draconid Meteor stream:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21P/Giacobini%E2%80%93Zinner


Examining the remains at Gobekli Tepe, we find that they were constructed to be 
oriented towards the direction of the Draconids, and not to the direction of 
the Taurids and Encke:
http://www.academia.edu/4315208/Gobekli_Tepe_and_the_Worship_of_the_Stars

http://i.space.com/images/i/000/012/539/i02/draconid-meteor-shower-map.jpg?1317942240

In North America, materials on the Sky Serpent (Unktena) and Thunderbird 
(Tlanwa) exist pretty uniformly, viz:

https://ohiohistory.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/al08760-copy.jpg
http://hellodrew.com/earthworks/serpent.html

etc, etc etc:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/07/article-0-0E414A5D0578-124_306x442.jpg

https://anthroposcenery.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/draconids-painting-1933_341px.jpg

This is very bad news, as it indicates that the rate of cometary injection and 
impact with the Earth was much higher in the recent past than previously 
estimated. If this was not a one off occurence, but instead represents the long 
term rate, then...

good hunting, all
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas


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[meteorite-list] Meteorite Men versus The Hunt

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi all - 

Another market factor is the television exposure that Meteorite Men provided.
Now that that project has sadly ended (hi geoff, steve), perhaps the thing to 
do would be for all of you 
to take videos of your hunts to recent falls, and then those videos could be 
combined into television shows,  something like a real reality show of these 
races to locate and collect the pieces.

Of course, that would require some cooperation with your rivals, but it wold 
likely be good for the market as a whole. The revenue might provide some 
protection against failed huns.

I do not know who Geoff and Steve's producers and editors were, and if they 
would be interested in such a project, but my guess is that they might be.

good hunting, 
E.P.
Man and Impact in the Americas




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Re: [meteorite-list] Perhaps these markets may work

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Gary - 

Thanks for your report - 

I suspect that the mainland convetions may have larger attendances, and thus 
that there 
may be more variances in interest. Even if sales at the events are low ( as the 
attendees 
have budgeted for items specific to the events) followup sales may be good.

E.P.
Man and Impact in the Americas 




On Sun, 5/31/15, Gary Fujihara fuj...@mac.com wrote:

 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Perhaps these markets may work
 To: E.P. Grondine epgrond...@yahoo.com
 Cc: MeteorList meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Date: Sunday, May 31, 2015, 1:04 AM
 
 I hosted a booth at
 HawaiiCon (http://www.hawaiicon.com) last year. I
 sold a few pallasites, moldavites and lunar pendant vials,
 but the retail interest by attendees were for comic books,
 science fiction toys like tricorders, ray guns and steampunk
 contraptions. 
 
 It was fun
 to meet Chekov from Star Trek (http://bigkahuna-meteorites.com/Chekov.jpg),
 but getting put in a headlock by Dr Death wasn’t so 
(http://bigkahuna-meteorites.com/Death-Gary.jpg).
 
 I suppose if I were to do it
 again, I would develop a merchandise line that would appeal
 more to the ‘con’ crowd, as meteorites were a curiosity
 but not so much for them to buy anything. I did make my
 conference fee, hotel accommodations, meals and a bit extra
 so the experience and time spent with my son Kaipo in a 5
 star resort in Kona on the Big Island was well worth it.
 
 gary
 
 
 On May 30, 2015, at 6:30 PM, E.P. Grondine via
 Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 wrote:
  
  This one
 is for the dealers here - 
  
  Have any of you tried selling meteorites
 at a science fiction convention, 
  or a
 comic book convention?
  
  all the best,
 
 E.P.
 
 __
  
  Visit our Facebook
 page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral
 and the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
  Meteorite-list mailing list
  Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
  https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
 
 Gary Fujihara
 Big Kahuna Meteorites Inc.
 PO
 Box 4175, Hilo, HI  96720
 (808) 640-9161
 http://bigkahuna-meteorites.com/
 http://www.ebay.com/sch/fujmon/m.html
 
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[meteorite-list] Perhaps these markets may work

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

This one is for the dealers here - 

Have any of you tried selling meteorites at a science fiction convention, 
or a comic book convention?

all the best,
E.P.
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[meteorite-list] WHAT OCCURS IN A LARGE HYPERVELOCITY IMPACT ON AN ICE SHEET? PART 2

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hola Listeros -

Three weeks ago, we pointed out that a major rise in sea levels and a major 
change in climate occurred well before the dates for what is widely and 
mistakenly called the Younger Dryas Boundary impact event. Two weeks ago we 
pointed out a geobleme in Canada that may or may not be associated with the 
Holocene Start Impact Event.

This week we return to consideration of the question of What occurs in a large 
hypervelocity impact on an ice sheet?.

While the answer to this obviously depends on where it hits, it is clear that 
large amounts of water are released. Thus one might suppose that if one had 
data on water flows down river drainages during this period, one could 
determine roughly where a hypervelocity impactor hit.

Now it just so happens that for 3 river drainages, we have that data.

The Drainages:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v464/n7289/images/nature08954-f1.2.jpg

and outflows:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v435/n7042/fig_tab/nature03617_F3.html

One of the reasons we have that data for these outlets is that they 
feed into the Atlantic Conveyor, which is of some concern right now:

http://www.pnas.org/content/109/49/19928/F1.large.jpg

Unfortunately, the flows of the Columbia River and Yukon River, which drain 
into the Pacific Ocean, are not as well documented. (Based on the amount of 
research done, one might think that in some peoples' opinions the Pacific Ocean 
plays no role in global climate.)

Columbia River Outflow Overview:
http://geology.gsapubs.org/content/37/1/95.full

or more precisely this graph of the salinity of the water at the outlfow of the 
Columbia River (Lopes and Mix): 
http://geology.gsapubs.org/content/37/1/79.full.pdf+html

But in performing this back calculation from river flows to impact point(s) one 
may also expect that water released by a large hypervelocity impact on the ice 
sheet may also have released enough water to breach the glacial ice dams, and 
this water contributed to the river flows:

For Glacial Lake Missoula:
http://geology.gsapubs.org/content/12/8/464.full.pdf+html

and for Glacial Lake Bonneville:
http://geology.utah.gov/popular/general-geology/great-salt-lake/commonly-asked-questions-about-utahs-great-salt-lake-lake-bonneville/#toggle-id-4

Now if one looks at the temperature data, one can see the first of the Holocene 
Start Impact(s) and the outflows occurred substantially before what is defined 
as the Younger Dryas:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/pubs/alley2000/alley2000.gif

And what occurs in Ohio (where I am writing from) was that warming occurred 
first, and then cold again:

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/Planning/Environment/training/Context%20Studies/Pollen%20and%20Sedimentary%20Records%20Hebron%20Muskox%20Site%20Licking%20County%20OH.pdf

As you can see from Shane's report, there is a re-cooling which likely 
coincides with the drainge of Glacial Lake Aggassiz around 10,800 BCE.

(see also Intensity and Rate of Vegetation and Climatic Change, Linda C.K. 
Shane, The First Discovery of America, The Ohio Archaeological Council, 
Columbus, Ohio. if you can find a copy, but note that Shane's 14C dates in it 
have to be recalibrated.) 

good hunting,everyone
E.P.




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Re: [meteorite-list] Chelyabinsk as a model for Tunguska

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi all - 

Perhaps modeling the fall of the fragments remaining after the airburst at 
Chelyabinsk 
may provide some estimate as to the location of the landing site of any 
fragments left after
the Tunguska airburst.

Even if most of the Tunguska impactor turned to fine dust, 
perhaps some lof it survived intact with momentum. 

Of course, after more than 100 years on the ground,
it is highly unlikely that any piece survives survives intact,
but even a soil stain could clear up a lot of mysteries.

good hunting,
Ed



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[meteorite-list] WHAT OCCURS IN A LARGE HYPERVELOCITY IMPACT ON AN ICE SHEET?

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

If it is evidence of an impact, it may have happened during the last ice age, 
when the area around Lloydminster was under a huge mass of ice.

Ollen's theory, and he stresses that's all it is is a large asteroid hit and 
melted the thick ice above the area, likely not even reaching the ground. 

[epg - I don't think so. Not for this size of blast.]

http://www.meridianbooster.com/2009/03/18/did-a-massive-meteor-touch-down-here

Sunday, March 22, 2009
Lloydminster Meridian Booster

In the first of my notes to the list, I speculated on the timing of the 
beginning of the Holocene Start Impact Event. In this note, I move on to 
consider some possible geological evidence, and call attention to an earlier 
comment by David Ollen on the mechanics of large hypervelocity impacts onto ice 
sheets.

DID A MASSIVE METEOR TOUCH DOWN HERE?
Posted By Graham Mason
Posted 4 days ago

It's just a theory, but it's an interesting one.

David Ollen may have found evidence of a massive impact crater just south of 
Kitscoty, but it doesn't look anything like what you might expect.

Instead of a huge hole in the ground, it's a circular plateau about 30 
kilometres in diameter, with an inner circle about 12 kilometres in diameter.

With this evaporation, a great weight was lifted from the land and, combined 
with the heavy ice still around the impact's circumference, caused the land 
under the hole in the ice to rise 50 to 100 feet. 

When you have three-quarters of a mile of ice over an area there's a lot of 
pressure there, he said. That ice is heavy. When you all of a sudden bang it 
and evaporate half of it, it takes the pressure off but the pressure is still 
on around it.

If all of a sudden you knock the ice out of the spot, it's going to pop up.

Ollen noticed the anomaly while looking at topography maps to determine 
Internet availability for households in the area.

We are an Internet service provider and we subscribe to a website that has a 
topography map on it and we use those maps to tell people whether they can get 
access rather than driving all the way to a place and telling them we can't 
reach it, said Ollen. I thought about it for a little while and figured a few 
things out over the weekend, I thought I may as well send it to Discover 
Magazine and the Booster as well.

It's a big impact, 30 kilometres across. That's a heck of a big asteroid.

Ollen said he'd be interested in knowing what a professional would have to say 
about it.

I've been a science nut since I was a kid. They used to call me Anti-matter 
Dave when I was in school,  said Ollen. I've always been interested in 
science and archeology and geology and anything to do with science.

It's just a curiosity, it might be wrong it's just an interesting theory.

*END OF ARTICLE QUOTE*

If this is not the first impact of the Holocene Start Impact Event, or one of 
the impacts in it, this geobleme bears the signs of perhaps being generated by 
a large hypervelocity impact which must have occurred during the last ice age. 
If it is the remains of a volcanic plug, would not the ice sheet would have 
scoured it away during it's advance?

If this geobleme was not generated by a comet impact, but instead from an 
asteroid impact, then perhaps bits of the impactor lie surrouding the area, and 
good hunting, everone. 

In either case, it strikes me that the water would cool the plasma and wash the 
impactites out of the atmosphere almost immediately, along with any cosmic dust 
loading from a comet's debris stream.

Obviously, looking at the water flows of the river drainages should help to 
pinpoint the location of any ice sheet impact during the last ice age. Such as 
the one the Choctaw remembered.

{Sterling, can you work the numbers for comet impact on an ice sheet, and give 
us some rough estimates for force of the impact and the volume of water 
released? The range for 1.8 atmpospheres overpressure, the kill zone, would 
also be interesting. I think that no one has ever done a proper estimate for 
the Meteor Crater kill zone. )

all the best,
Ed
 



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[meteorite-list] Large Hyper-Velocity Impacts and Gamma Rays

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hola Listeros - 
 

There has been so much horse manure written about the YD impact by various 
experts that I thought I would add my own contribution to the pile.

As far as my qualification to do this go, many manned Mars flight enthusiasts 
will tell you I am an idiot; and they are joined in this opinion by 2012 
fatalists, different psychics, theosophist archaeologists, followers of 
Velikovsky and Cayce; Drs. Morrison and his friends,believers in Nemesis.

I should mention in this regard that I edited a presentation by D. Usikov on 
Gamma Ray bursts, back many years ago when I had a brain. He bears no 
responsibility for the following.

My own little road apple is this: in large hyper-velocity impacts, some photons 
appear to reach gamma ray energy levels, which results in the release of 
neutrons and thus in the formation of 14C and 10Be.

I am not current with the latest charts of 14C production from 50,000 BC on, 
but the intcal98 chart, which is detailed and accurate enough for the 
presentation at hand may be seen on page 13 of Firestone's article here:

http://www.centerfirstamericans.com/mammoth/issues/Volume-16/vol16_num2.pdf

There are several different features in this which attract notice.

First off, one notices several CURVES which Dr. Firestone fitted to the 14C 
production data. These may perhpas represent either gamma ray bursts from 
planets falling into their suns, gamma ray bursts from stars falling into to 
their galactic centers, gamma ray burst from supernova explosions interacting 
with outlying stars, etc. etc. etc. Fascinating material for conjectures...

Then perhaps one notices the separate and distinct SPIKES. The spike between 
50,000 BP and 40,000 BP seems to align with the Meteor Crater impact. No impact 
has been connected with the spike between 40,000 BP and 30,00 BP. Moving on, no 
spikes are found between 30,000 BP and 20,000 BP, and then TWO spikes between 
20,000 BP and 10,000 BP. The second of these has been connected with the YD 
Boundary impact at 10,800 (or so) BCE while the earlier spike has gone 
unexamined.

Taking a look at this chart, we can see that the last ice age lacked a maxima 
of cold:
http://www.climate4you.com/images/VostokTemp0-42%20BP.gif

Let us call this missing minimal temperature the Grondine Minima. The 
discontinuity with earlier glacial cycles begins at about the same time as the 
first spike in neutrons between 20,000-10,000 BP.

One may notice that the first sea level rise occurs well before 10,800 or so 
BCE:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v435/n7042/fig_tab/nature03617_F2.html

and here:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v502/n7473/images/nature12609-sf1.jpg

(Tarasov and Peltier's work is usually ignored various self proclaimed YD 
Impact experts. 
And that is one of the reasons why I call these two major impact events the 
Holocene Start Impact Event.)

Where did that first bit of water come from?:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v435/n7042/fig_tab/nature03617_F3.html

This is the end of the first part of this note.
Part two will cover the first large impact crater

E.P.


TWO FRAGMENTS OF A CHOCTAW IMPACT TRADITION

The traditions of the Choctaws concerning the Oka Falama
[the Returned Waters] is as follows: 

FRAGMENT 1

In ancient time, after many generations of mankind had 
lived and passed from the stage of being, the race became 
so corrupt and wicked, brother fighting against brother and 
wars deluging the Earth with human blood and carnage,

The Great Spirit became greatly displeased, and finally determined 
to destroy the human race; therefore He sent a great prophet [the Peoples' 
Mourner] to them
who proclaimed from tribe to tribe, and from village to village, 
the fearful tidings that the human race was soon to be destroyed. 

None believed his words, and lived on in their wickedness;
as if they did not care, and the seasons came again and went. 

Then came the autumn of the year, 
followed by many succeeding cloudy days and nights, 
during which the Sun by day and the Moon and Stars by night
were concealed from the Earth; 

Then succeeded a total darkness, 
and the Sun seemed to have been blotted out, 
while darkness and silence with a cold atmosphere 
took possession of earth. 
Mankind wearied and perplexed, but not repenting or reforming, 
slept in darkness but to awake in darkness. 

Then the mutterings of distant thunder began to be heard, 
gradually becoming incessant, 
until it reverberated in all parts of the sky, 
and seemed to echo back even from the deep center of the Earth. 
Then fear and consternation seized upon every heart 
and all believed the Sun would never return. 

The Magi [Spiritual Guides]of the Choctaws spoke despondently 
in reply to the many interrogations of the alarmed people, 
and sang their death-songs 
which were but faintly heard in the mingled confusion that arose 
amid the gloom of the night that seemed would have no returning morn. 

Mankind went from place to place 

[meteorite-list] Shiva

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul - 

This will be brief,as the s key is sticking on this keyboard.
Given the impairment of my left hand, this presents quite a challenge. 

Thanks for the links on the Shiva hypothesis.

The problems that exist are
1) the eruption sequence of the Deccan traps.
2) the distribution of the air borne impactites from the KT event.

Have I mentioned to you that the Great Dismal Swamp needs to be investigated as 
a possible impact feature?

In other news, ATLAS will soon be in place, and the European Space Agency now 
has an intercept mission scheduled for 2022.  

E.P.
 
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Re: [meteorite-list] KT extinction, again..

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Paul, Sterling - 

Again, no mention of Shiva and the Deccan traps sequence.

And the persistent attempts to degrade language, like pretending asteroids and 
comets are the same thing.

You know, if my stroke had of been a little more severe, I would not be 
aggravated by all of this cr*p.

As it is, I can be aggravated, but I simply can not adequately respond.

E.P.

PS - I'd like to add here that if the ARM makes no sense, 
then manned flight to Deimos and Phobos does not either.


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[meteorite-list] AD, sort of

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi all - 

Used copies of my book Man and Impact in the Amerficas have been going for 
around $20. 
There are now several copies from the last powwow season going for as low as 
$13.
If you ever wanted a cheap copy, now is probably a good time to buy.

good hunting,
Ed
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[meteorite-list] Ad, sort of

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi all - 

I forgot to add that the used copies are available via Amazon.

good hunting,
Ed


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Re: [meteorite-list] New Hoba Search

[E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list]

Hi Bob - 

100-150 parent bodies now, but was there a parent body for them?

One whose disruption led to the LPBE, and the shift of the outer gas giants?

How does a person account for the formation of peridot in iron without one?

No doubt gravitational effects shift Long Period Comets onto the plane of the 
planets, but perhaps 
many don't get that far and accrete before then.

It is interesting that Hoba has no crater. I guess we'll see how this meteorite 
search goes. 

Such Grand Problems. I tend to work with the little ones.

E.P.


E.P.,
There are many more parent bodies for meteorites - at least 100-150 at
last count. As for comets, they have orbital inclinations at every
imaginable angle, so his hypothesis that most impacts are at 23.5°
can't be due to comets. You're right about not knowing the composition
of comet centers, but given their generally tiny size, the likelihood
of them differentiating to produce an iron core is very remote. Their
very iciness implies they didn't differentiate to a significant
degree.
Asteroids are also inclined at a variety of angles with the average
inclination of 8.2° of the ecliptic plane.
While I wish him well in his research and hope he finds meteorite
fragments in every dry lake, his understanding of comets vs. asteroids
seems flawed to me as does the idealized 23.5° angle of entry.
Best wishes and good luck with the Brenham artifact project.
Bob

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