Re: [meteorite-list] Crater 'String' Claim
Jerry: Ditto Larry On Tue, November 13, 2007 6:25 pm, Sterling K. Webb wrote: Hi, Jerry, List, This site is Johnny Tonto of Pueblo, Colorado. He been much discussed on the List. His craters are largely Craters of the Mind, I think. I ain't convinced, at any rate. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 7:03 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Crater String Claim http://www.meteoritecrater.com/ While perusing the nuggetshooters forum I came upon this. Wonder if any List members have seen it? Jerry Flaherty __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Leigh Anne DelRay
Dear Geoff: Our prayers are with Leigh Anne today. Larry and Nancy Lebofsky __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Rosetta gravity assist flyby
Hello Doug: I take exception to your comments that this was either a screw-up or a joke. These are hard-working dedicated people, most of whom I have known for 20-30 years. I do not know all of the details, but when a discovery is made, the discoverers have access to a very large database of Small Solar System Bodies (asteroids and comets). Generally, things in orbit around the Earth have distinct enough orbits so that they are easily recognized. Not so for objects in heliocentric orbits (orbiting the Sun). In this case, an object was seen that appeared to be a Near-Earth Object that was about to make a close approach to the Earth and for which the database did not have the orbital elements. Thus, it was at first considered to be a new discovery. There are nearly 500,000 known asteroids (many with poorly known orbits) and about 5000 new ones are being discovered every month! Maintaining this database is not an easy task. Obviously, someone fairly quickly realized that this was not an asteroid, but Rosetta, but not before the alert went out for astronomers to make observations. The system worked! What did not work, as was pointed out by the Minor Planet Center, was that unless there is someone who is in a position to provide them with the orbital elements of Rosetta, there is no way that they can put this into their database. This is where the system failed. Actually it is impressive that the Catalina Survey people did see this incoming asteroid and shows how well they are covering the sky in order to locate any asteroids heading toward the Earth. However, Doug, Pluto and the IAU decision is another story that we should discuss over beers sometime. Larry Lebofsky On Mon, November 12, 2007 6:51 pm, mexicodoug wrote: Hi Darren, It certainly was an actual screw-up by the IAU. The joke I meant was by Catalina Sky Survey, no matter what they say. You deserve a medal. Just tell us you didn't look in the back of the book (or leave a Google crumb path)! Clyde Tombaugh is is snickering in his grave at the foolish bureaucracy that was arrogant enough to strip a true astronomer of his life's crowning achievement to play word footsies... Best wishes, Doug. - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 6:13 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Rosetta gravity assist flyby On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 12:35:28 -0600, you wrote: Someone has a sense of humour, especially the flying couch comment ! Looks like it might have been an actual screw-up, not just a joke. http://blogs.smh.com.au/sit/archives/2007/11/alarm_astronomers_in_a_spi n_ov.html http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/071112-technov-asteroid-mistake .html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.ht ml?in_article_id=493152in_page_id=1965 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Did a Collision Cause Comet 17P/Holmes'MysteriousOutburst?
Hi List:
I am trying this again since my previouys forward did not appear to go
through.
On November 13, this newly-discovered asteroid (only about 20 meters
diameter) will pass within 2 Earth radii of the CENTER of the Earth (that
is close). It will be 9th magnitude (about 50-100 times too faint to see
with the naked eye), but show be observable with a small telescope (if it
is night where you are when it comes by and you know were to look).
Go to the cfa.harvard site for coordiantes, etc. I can interpret columns
if you are interested.
I am sure there will be more about this in the coming days.
LArry
Begin forwarded message:
From: Alan W Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: November 8, 2007 5:15:19 PM MST
To: Peter Birtwhistle [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: {MPML} 2007 VN84 incoming
2007 VN84 is significant in that it not only comes closer, it is much
bigger, around 20 m in diameter, compared to 2004 FU162 only about
1/3 that
size. Based on our recent population estimates, we expect an object
the
size of 2004 FU162 to pass within a couple Earth radii about once a
year,
and to actually impact (actually, blow up in the upper atmosphere)
about
once in five years, so the only thing unusual about 2004 FU162 is
that we
saw it as it passed by. 2007 VN84, on the other hand, is so large
that we
expect omething that big to come as close as 2 radii only about
once in 20
years, so it is a remarkable event in itself, in addition to the
fact that
it was discovered and can be watched flying by. Congratulations to
Richard
Kowalski and the Catalina Sky Survey.
Cheers,
Alan
P.S. I second his request and interest for a lightcurve, but it
will be a
real challeng on account of its rate of motion. Plenty bright
enough, but
really truckin'.
At 03:57 PM 11/8/2007, Peter Birtwhistle wrote:
Take a look at MPEC 2007-V69 just announced...
http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/mpec/K07/K07V69.html
The minimum distance from the geocenter is 0.81 AU (1.89 Earth
radii) on Nov 13.844 UT
just beating the previous record close approach of 2004 FU162, but
this time we have 5 days lead time.
Peter
***
Alan W. Harris
Senior Research Scientist
Space Science Institute
4603 Orange Knoll Ave. Phone: 818-790-8291
La Canada, CA 91011-3364 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
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Re: [meteorite-list] Rosetta gravity assist flyby
The first announcment was a real one. I do not think that it was at first
realized that it was Rosetta!
I hope there will be more info in the next few days.
Larry
On Fri, November 9, 2007 11:35 am, mexicodoug wrote:
Someone has a sense of humour, especially the flying couch comment !
So, will closest approach be 20:57, 21:04, 21:13 UT, or undetermined, and
who will get the view? I think Rosetta won't be rising until 21:15
where I'm at in southern North America, and at close approach will be
moving at around 3 degrees (6 full moons) per minute. That is a little
challenging.especially if the spacecraft is not oriented to reflect
much back.
Thanks kindly,
Doug
- Original Message -
From: Spaceguard [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Ron
Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Did a Collision Cause
Comet17P/Holmes'MysteriousOutburst?
Yep. It's the Rosetta spacecraft making its planned gravity assist
fly-by of the Earth.
Jay Tate
The Spaceguard Centre
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Ron
Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Did a Collision Cause Comet
17P/Holmes'MysteriousOutburst?
Hi List:
I am trying this again since my previouys forward did not appear to
go through.
On November 13, this newly-discovered asteroid (only about 20 meters
diameter) will pass within 2 Earth radii of the CENTER of the Earth
(that
is close). It will be 9th magnitude (about 50-100 times too faint to
see with the naked eye), but show be observable with a small telescope
(if it
is night where you are when it comes by and you know were to look).
Go to the cfa.harvard site for coordiantes, etc. I can interpret
columns if you are interested.
I am sure there will be more about this in the coming days.
LArry
Begin forwarded message:
From: Alan W Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: November 8, 2007 5:15:19 PM MST
To: Peter Birtwhistle [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: {MPML} 2007 VN84 incoming
2007 VN84 is significant in that it not only comes closer, it is
much bigger, around 20 m in diameter, compared to 2004 FU162 only
about 1/3 that
size. Based on our recent population estimates, we expect an object
the size of 2004 FU162 to pass within a couple Earth radii about
once a year, and to actually impact (actually, blow up in the upper
atmosphere) about once in five years, so the only thing unusual about
2004 FU162 is
that we saw it as it passed by. 2007 VN84, on the other hand, is so
large that we expect omething that big to come as close as 2 radii
only about once in 20 years, so it is a remarkable event in itself,
in addition to the fact that it was discovered and can be watched
flying by. Congratulations to Richard
Kowalski and the Catalina Sky Survey.
Cheers,
Alan
P.S. I second his request and interest for a lightcurve, but it
will be a real challeng on account of its rate of motion. Plenty
bright enough, but really truckin'.
At 03:57 PM 11/8/2007, Peter Birtwhistle wrote:
Take a look at MPEC 2007-V69 just announced...
http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/mpec/K07/K07V69.html
The minimum distance from the geocenter is 0.81 AU (1.89
Earth
radii) on Nov 13.844 UT
just beating the previous record close approach of 2004 FU162,
but this time we have 5 days lead time.
Peter
***
Alan W. Harris
Senior Research Scientist
Space Science Institute
4603 Orange Knoll Ave. Phone: 818-790-8291
La Canada, CA 91011-3364 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
__._,_.___
Messages in this topic (0)Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic
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Posts to this list or information found within may be freely used,
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as the source of the information.
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Re: [meteorite-list] Did a Collision Cause Comet 17P/Holmes'MysteriousOutburst?
Hi Jerry, Sterling, and list: Sterling. Have I done something wrong. I just got an error message stating that mailbox disabled for this recipient. L- No pun intended, but the solid theory is actually a good one. I was making comets in class yesterday and we tried getting pictures of me popping film canisters (back in the dark ages cameras had this long plastic stuff that you actually loaded into the camera and then, after taking your pictures had to have them developed). It is very dramatic, especially the Fuji film canisters that have a much tighter fitting top. You put a little water a a small piece of dry ice (frozen carbon dioxide) into it and close the top. The solid warms up, turns to gas and --- pop. Like popping a champagne cork. It gets the students' attention. The top actually slams off of our 15 foot class ceiling and lands well up the rows of students. At room temperature, solid carbon dioxide weighs 1.6 g/cc and the gas is 0.00198 g/cc. Therefore the volume change is over 800 times. If you try holding that under the surface of a comet (even with temperatures a little less) that builds up a lot of pressure --- a really big burp! Why this comet seems to burp every hundred years or so rather than just having a jet of material like any normal comet is something that I (or probably anyone else at the moment) understands. Larry On Wed, November 7, 2007 8:09 pm, Jerry wrote: Sterling, Larry and List, The burp theory as proposed by Sterling is as solid as any and more likely than most to guesstmate the auspicious, unusual cometary event that graced this generation of observers with a front row seat to the great mysteries of OUR existence. We, once more, have been priviledged to witness a spectcal to generate wonder. Whether, and I doubt we'll ever explain this one, a consensus is ever arrived at, I am satisfied that the collisional aspect has been addressed and though partitioned into a much lower probability, uncertaintity, chaos if you will, has reared its head to grade our fears and futures into a more respectable framework to wend our way through the rest of our days. Spooky, but throw in a Nakhla Dog, a Lama or two, a guy blow off his feet and knoked unconscious, another at Tunguska and IT does give one pause. Jerry Flaherty - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 9:42 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Did a Collision Cause Comet 17P/Holmes'MysteriousOutburst? Hi, List, You would think with all the new (and old) scientists examining the collisional possibilities of Comet Holmes passing through the Asteroid Belt, some of them might have noticed that Comet Holmes DOES NOT PASS through the Asteroid Belt! I'm being sarcastic about this because I made exactly the same mistake myself, until an astronomer, List member Larry Lebofsky, pointed out that because of its high inclination (19.12 degrees), Comet Holmes does not pass through the ecliptic plane in the Asteroid Belt, but way out at the inside edge of Jupiter's orbit, at 4.86 AU. http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb.cgi?sstr=17porb=1 The vast majority of the asteroids in the Main Belt have inclinations of less than 19 degrees. Of course, it is possible that Holmes could collide with a less inclined asteroid; it depends on the orientation of the asteroidal orbit. But, but it's really a very thin chance, with a small subgroup of an already widely scattered population. In non-numerical terms, Comet Holmes essentially passes over (and under) the Asteroid Belt, rather than through it. However, Holmes does plunge through the ecliptical plane in the position where thousands of Jupiter Trojan asteroids co-orbit with the planet, making passes that repeat the same orbital configuration every 81-point-something years. The odds of a collision with something in Jupiter's Trojans is dramatically higher than with a Main Belt asteroid. There are two goups of Trojans, ahead and behind Jupiter at 60 degrees, but since they are themselves generously distributed ahead and behind their Trojan points, along about 1/3rd of the Jupiter orbit, Holmes is exposed to such Trojan encounters for about 1/3rd of its orbits. The two possible causes of the outburst, collision or thermal, can be summarized as the Bump or Burp theories. I think an endogenous cause of the outburst is more likely than a collision, as both the great outbursts, the discovery outburst and the present one, occured after perihelion passage with some delay. From June 16, 1892 to November 6, 1892 is 143 days. From May 4, 2007 to October 24, 2007 is 173 days. (There are some uncertainties about dates of perihelion.) Passage through the ecliptic plane at 2.05 AU (right at the inner limit of the Asteroid Belt) occurs 4-5 months earlier than perihelion. At the times
Re: [meteorite-list] Comet Holmes
Hello List: We are finally back to clear skies. Once the Moon went away (rose later) we have had enough clouds to make observing comet Holmes frustrating. We saw something interesting tonight: There was a star clearly visible through the comet coma! Using Starry Night, it appears that the comet is 3 arc minutes (1/10 of the lunar diameter) from a 7th magnitude star (HIP17476). It really gives you a feel for how thin the material in the coma of Holmes really is! Larry and Nancy Lebofsky __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Holmes from Mars
Hi Don: Starry Night saves the need of a space suit. John Carter, who did not need a space suit, also did not need a computer program to get him to Mars! I still had my try at this running at home with Starry Night 5.x and the major difference is that the comet is in Cassiopeia. Not a large viewing difference. I just checked out the JPL site again, and it actually looks like the comet is closer to opposition on Mars than on Earth, so the tail should be less obvious there. This is ignoring the angle created by the fact that the come is above the plane of the Solar System which could easily make a viewing difference. JPL: http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb.cgi?sstr=17P;orb=1 Larry On Tue, October 30, 2007 12:12 am, Don Merchant wrote: According to Starry Night Pro 6 (with the comet updates of today) Comet Holmes is aprox. 1.6249 AU. from Earth with an Apparent Magnitude of 2.61. Now I was able to place my self on the surface of Mars (with the program of course!) and Comet Holmes would be 1.1862 AU. from Mars with an Apparent Magnitude of 1.93 Not a whole lot of difference as we see from Earth. I did not see a tail till I magnified a bit. So I don't know if a tail can be seen from Mars comparing to what we see from Earth at almost the same distance. Don Merchant __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Comet Holmes
Hi All: Another thing against an asteroid impact. If you go to the comet orbit site at JPL for Holmes, because of its inclination relative to the ecliptic, it crosses near Mars and Near Jupiter, not in the middle of the asteroid belt. It passed through the plane of the Solar System back in February (before closest approach to the Sun in May) and is now well above the plane of the Solar System. It crosses the plane at 2.1 AU (near the inner edge of the asteroid belt) and at 4.8 AU well beyond the asteroid belt. Granted, there are lots of asteroids with inclinations that put them well above the plane of the solar system, but I would not say that Holmes goes through the center of the belt. On another note, it has been years since I have done any thermal modeling of asteroids, but, even with rocky material, it takes some time for the interior to notice that the asteroid has been near the Sun (thanks to thermal inertia). It should take even longer for the thermal wave to penetrate into the surface of a fluffy comet. Also, when it will be warmest will also depend on the direction of it polar axis. I do not remember the numbers, but even 10 or 15 years after Pluto's closest approach to the Sun, it is still getting warmer and its atmosphere getting thicker (at least as of 3 or 4 years ago). Larry On Mon, October 29, 2007 4:08 pm, Chris Peterson wrote: I don't disregard the possibility of collisions with co-orbiting material. But the probability of colliding with something while passing through the asteroid belt is still exceedingly small. That zone is still basically empty space- very little material spread out in a massive volume. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Comet Holmes Hi, Chris, List The best argument against a collision is the absurd improbability of TWO collisions in the last century, since this comet has a history of outbursts. The problem with probability is the probability of the assumptions that are applied. If 17P is an isolated object and any impactor must come from another unrelated orbit, the likelihood of any collision, ever, is very, very low. Like all short period periodic comets, it is assumed that 17P was perturbed into its present orbit, probably by Jupiter. Since its orbit ranges from Jupiter to Mars and is inclined to the solar system plane, 17P must transit the Asteroid Zone twice every orbit (i.e., every 3.5 years). One might pass harmlessly through the Zone at many locations; at other places, you might not be so lucky. If 17P is undergoing an on-going disintegration (from a past major impact, perhaps very long ago), it may well share its orbit with many smaller, darker (harder) fragments, millennia-worth of its own space-junk, a debris stream, possibly arising from this ancient impact or partial breakup. This would raise the probability of future trouble from near zero to near 1.0. There may be more than one debris stream accompanying it, braided around the principal orbit, with objects distributed along the stream. Such streams would be quite invisible to us. In the case of Holmes, the odds of an outburst per orbit seem to be 12 to 1 against. Collisions with co-orbiting objects occur at very small velocity differentials (from the speed of a man walking briskly up to that of a fast runner). Such collisions are not catastrophic but damaging: gouging, ripping, crushing, crust-breaking, volatile churning affairs. Once a century is not that unlikely for such glancing impacts if there enough co-orbiting fragments (especially the more silicate ones). On the other hand, there may be no external impact event responsible; it may be the result of some endogenous process we do not understand. Whipple began the creation of models that explain comet behavior and self-modification of their orbits, the effects of thermal exposure, and so forth, and these models have been greatly elaborated over the years, yet we cannot explain much of comet behavior. Whipple suggested that Holmes had been a double comet in which the pairs collided. Holmes is a prime example of this. We think that it never gets close enough to the Sun to explain the outbursts, but both the discovery outburst and the present one occured after perihelion passage with some delay. In both the discovery brightening and the present one, the delay was five months! (June 16, 1892 to November 6, 1892 -- 143 days; with a second outburst of equal brilliance 60 days later. May 4, 2007 to October 24, 2007 -- 173 days. A 60-day second outburst would make Holmes a Christmas Comet.) Does perihelion warming trigger some internal mechanism that takes about five months to
Re: [meteorite-list] Comet Holmes
Hi Again Sterling: Next plane crossing (at 4.8 AU or so) is in 2 years. At that time Jupiter is on the other side of the Sun, so the Trojans, which ar, on average, 60 degrees fore and aft of Jupiter not not even close this time around. So, my bias is a thermal burp (belch). I have seen what an expanding gas can do. From a solid to a gas, things like carbon dioxide can expand 500-fold or more. Can cause quite a bang. Larry On Mon, October 29, 2007 6:35 pm, Sterling K. Webb wrote: Larry, Chris, List It crosses the plane... at 4.8 AU. Here's a list of 2278 objects which orbit in the plane of the ecliptic, almost all of which have their perihelion at or around a median figure of 4.8 AU http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/iau/lists/JupiterTrojans.html You're right; I didn't go and look at the ecliptical crossing points, but this is even better! The Jupiter Trojans are clustered at Jupiter's L4 and L5 points in elongated bananas. Additionally, there are no doubt even more of them than these 2278 objects presently catalogued (being discovered by Listmembers, even). Thousands more. They make a fine dangerous crossing for a 3.4 km comet with no working brakes, them dawdling around that intersection without ever really getting out of the way, like a crowd of teenagers. And poor 17P's orbit goes through them once every 81.834 years. That's for both the Greek camp and the Trojan camp, so 17P runs the gaunlet every 40 years. Of course, the Trojans are not AT perihelion all at the same time; their aphelia are an AU or so further out. But Trojans are the only numerous class of bodies that stay herded into one general area all the time (one area in Jupiter's rotating frame of reference). Larry, I realize that you only wanted to get the Asteroids off the hook, but I think you pointed a finger at the ones who did it. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 7:49 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Comet Holmes Hi All: Another thing against an asteroid impact. If you go to the comet orbit site at JPL for Holmes, because of its inclination relative to the ecliptic, it crosses near Mars and Near Jupiter, not in the middle of the asteroid belt. It passed through the plane of the Solar System back in February (before closest approach to the Sun in May) and is now well above the plane of the Solar System. It crosses the plane at 2.1 AU (near the inner edge of the asteroid belt) and at 4.8 AU well beyond the asteroid belt. Granted, there are lots of asteroids with inclinations that put them well above the plane of the solar system, but I would not say that Holmes goes through the center of the belt. On another note, it has been years since I have done any thermal modeling of asteroids, but, even with rocky material, it takes some time for the interior to notice that the asteroid has been near the Sun (thanks to thermal inertia). It should take even longer for the thermal wave to penetrate into the surface of a fluffy comet. Also, when it will be warmest will also depend on the direction of it polar axis. I do not remember the numbers, but even 10 or 15 years after Pluto's closest approach to the Sun, it is still getting warmer and its atmosphere getting thicker (at least as of 3 or 4 years ago). Larry On Mon, October 29, 2007 4:08 pm, Chris Peterson wrote: I don't disregard the possibility of collisions with co-orbiting material. But the probability of colliding with something while passing through the asteroid belt is still exceedingly small. That zone is still basically empty space- very little material spread out in a massive volume. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Comet Holmes Hi, Chris, List The best argument against a collision is the absurd improbability of TWO collisions in the last century, since this comet has a history of outbursts. The problem with probability is the probability of the assumptions that are applied. If 17P is an isolated object and any impactor must come from another unrelated orbit, the likelihood of any collision, ever, is very, very low. Like all short period periodic comets, it is assumed that 17P was perturbed into its present orbit, probably by Jupiter. Since its orbit ranges from Jupiter to Mars and is inclined to the solar system plane, 17P must transit the Asteroid Zone twice every orbit (i.e., every 3.5 years). One might pass harmlessly through the Zone at many locations; at other places,
Re: [meteorite-list] Possible Detection of a Short Tail Behind Comet 17P/Holmes
For you non-astronomical types: I-filter is 0.9 microns (800 nm) J-filter is 1.25 microns (1250 nm) Visible is about 0.6 microns Larry On Mon, October 29, 2007 5:29 pm, Ron Baalke wrote: POSSIBLE DETECTION OF A SHORT TAIL BEHIND COMET 17/P HOLMES Universite de Montreal October 29, 2007 Montreal - The recent brightening of comet Holmes has spurred a frenzy of observations both by amateurs and professionals astronomers alike. All these observations reveal a tailless round yellowish fuzzball in the constellation Perseus. Near infrared images of comet P/17 Holmes, obtained with the 1.6m Ritchey-Chretien telescope at Mont Megantic Observatory (Qc, Canada), indicate a small tail-like feature next to the comet's head. The images were obtained by graduate student Sandie Bouchard and night assistant Bernard Malenfant on the morning of October 26, using SIMON, a Near Infrared Polarimetric Imager. A preliminary analysis, performed by astronomers Pierre Bastien and Rene Doyon from Universite de Montréal and the Centre de Recherche en Astrophysique du Quebec (CRAQ) clearly shows a bright elongated feature surrounding the more luminous comet's coma. This elongated feature, probably a cloud of dust and gas, which resembles a small tail, is going out at position angle of 145 degrees (+/- 5 deg), measured from north and going east. This direction makes an angle of about 33 degrees relative to the Sun-comet direction. Although the images display tantalizing evidence of a tail, the direction of the feature does not point directly in the direction opposite to the Sun, as expected. For more information, contact: Dr. Pierre Bastien Universite de Montreal Tel: 1-514-343-5816 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Image caption: The following raw images were taken with the NIR instrument SIMON. On both images East is up and North is right. Fig.1 : image taken with an I filter Oct 26 at 04:37 EDT (08:37 UT) Fig.2 : same as fig.1 but with a J filter taken at 04:10 EDT (08:10 UT). http://www.astro.umontreal.ca/~casca/PR/holmes_I.png http://www.astro.umontreal.ca/~casca/PR/holmes_J.png PIO Source: Robert Lamontagne Attache de presse/Press Officer Societe canadienne d'astronomie/Canadian Astronomical Society (CASCA) Dept. de PhysiqueTel: 1-514-343-6111 (p.3195) Universite de Montréal Telecopieur: 1-514-343-2071 C.P. 6128, Succ. Centre-ville Montreal, Que. H3C 3J7 Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Science article on Stardust samples
Darren: Please thank Anne for the article! :-) It is something that I can use in my class. I would like to meet her some day. Does she go to the Tucson Gem and Mineral Show? Larry On Fri, October 26, 2007 7:15 am, Darren Garrison wrote: On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:59:53 -0400, you wrote: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/318/5850/613 Full paper (minus illustrations), courtesy of Anne O'Nymous. http://webpages.charter.net/garrison6328/tmp/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Comet 17P (Holmes) Visible Event !
Hi Again: If one were on Mars (hold your breath and bring a warm jacket), Holmes would be 1.17 AU away (vs. 1.63 AU) and 0.7 magnitudes (2 times) brighter than what we see. And there would be less intereference from moonlight! Larry On Wed, October 24, 2007 2:20 pm, mexicodoug wrote: Hi Again Listees, With regards to Comet 17P (Holmes) estimated at under 3.5 Km in diameter, and being twice as far from the Earth as the planet Mars: How could it be one sixteenth as bright as Mars and an easy object in the night sky with an almost Full Moon? No doubt it has a lot of ice crystals or something white and reflective. A rought thought says that in absolute terms it is one fourth the brightness of Mars if they were at the same distance from us! This is because we perceive only 1/4 of the light intensity due to the doubling of distance, It is it is hard to avoid the temptation of thinking this tiny body is of relatively pristine material now confined to the Asteroid belt, but before, from the Outer Solar System, and may, for once, given Jupiter his dues, have been affected by a relatively close pass to the inner Solar System, with Venus, Earth and Mars all aligned this month to exert their gravitational attraction together. Not to mention all of the scientists and collectors who would will material to Earth. The comet is over 40% further away from Earth as it is from Mars at the moment, so I hope the guys with their hands on the controls of the Mars rovers take a break and look up for us at MidSolnight, and that the Deep Impact Crew is already into emergency overdrive to make the comparison they will be held accountable for, now that there is a second chance :-)... Best Skies and great health, Doug - Original Message - From: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 2:52 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Comet 17P (Holmes) Visible Event ! Hello List, This bodes great (in a Titian-Bodean sense) for tonight in Europe and North America. I put a finder chart up for this evening at: www.diogenite.com/17P.jpg This is the show in Europe right now...and should print well to an A4 or letter sized piece of paper. A new star was just born for those familiar with the neighborhood of Algol and Capella. The best time will be as the moon gets lower just before the glow of Sunrise, and the comet will be half way to the Zenith due NW (and the chart will still be fine upside down in the Northern hemisphere). Mars will brightly shine 16 times brighter overhead in Gemini. Nearby is Capella, the 6th largest star and 6th brightest starry object in the sky (Called Colca by the Aymara for a cache of food - which ancient Greeks believed was the horn of plenty Cornucopia, and the name of the famous Valley/Canyon of Condors by Arequipa, Peru) is nearby. Moon or not, it's so bright you can still get a fine view after Sunset if you don't mind the interference from that big Lunar up there. Tonight's the night!! The location on the finder chart is similar for the next week (heading toward Mirphak, just a tad), since the comet is very far away from Earth with respect to noticable relative motion. Best wishes for a long night, Doug - Original Message - From: K. Ohtsuka [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MeteoriteList meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Comet 17P (Holmes) Visible Event ! Hello all, I have just looked at the superoutburst of 17P/Holmes, as follows: 2007 Oct. 24.72 UT: m1=2.8, Dia.=, DC=9, by NE Katsu. OHTSUKA Tokyo, JAPAN - Original Message - From: giovannisostero [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 1:22 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Comet 17P (Holmes) Visible Event ! Hi all, this is our BVR shot of 17P/Holmes in outburst (brightest object in the field center): http://tinyurl.com/2mxrmx Cheers, Giovanni and Ernesto __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Re: [meteorite-list] Comet 17P (Holmes)
Hi Don: I am still running 5.X and it works fine. Unfortunately the updates still give it as 17th magnitude. Thanks to Sterling I moved to Mars to see how bright it was (2 times brighter). Larry On Thu, October 25, 2007 4:48 pm, Don Merchant wrote: Hi List. If any of you have Starry Night Pro 6 you can follow Comet Holmes by clicking FIND on the side panel and type in HOLMES (17P) Pretty awesome program! Don Merchant __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P]
Jerry and Mark: Nancy and I just went out and saw it again tonight. It appears brighter than last night and it is clearly much more comet-like than last night. Yesterday it looked just a little not-star-like, but tonight, it is obviously fuzzy with the star-like condensation. It is clearly getting bigger! On Thu, October 25, 2007 7:29 pm, Mark Langenfeld wrote: Even with the extra-bright full moon and the usual urban light pollution, 17/P Holmes is a nice naked-eye object here in Madison, WI this evening. The coma is suprisingly large and shows a bright, star-like condensation or center through 7X50 binoculars. I agree with Jeff that color is apparent, showing a yellowish --almost orange -- cast. If you haven't yet taken a look (and have clear skies), NOW is the time to get outdoors and witness this most unusual event. Mark - Original Message - From: Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 8:01 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P] Just to update those interested, there is no diminishing in brightness in fact there may be a slight increase. It defintely looks cometary in binoculars with a bright center and hazy coma. And as someone said last nite, it has a redish cast. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P], continued
Hi Again: We just looked at it with a 100mm f/5 telescope and it is clearly orange. However, it is also very obvious that this thing is unusual. I thought that I had a focusing problem, but the scope was in focus. There is a beautiful circular coma, but the condensation is NOT star-like. It is about 1/4 the diameter of the outer coma! Never seen anything like this. Larry On Thu, October 25, 2007 7:29 pm, Mark Langenfeld wrote: Even with the extra-bright full moon and the usual urban light pollution, 17/P Holmes is a nice naked-eye object here in Madison, WI this evening. The coma is suprisingly large and shows a bright, star-like condensation or center through 7X50 binoculars. I agree with Jeff that color is apparent, showing a yellowish --almost orange -- cast. If you haven't yet taken a look (and have clear skies), NOW is the time to get outdoors and witness this most unusual event. Mark - Original Message - From: Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 8:01 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P] Just to update those interested, there is no diminishing in brightness in fact there may be a slight increase. It defintely looks cometary in binoculars with a bright center and hazy coma. And as someone said last nite, it has a redish cast. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P], continued
Hi Sterling: It looks more like a planetary nebula to me! I will try to get an estimate of its size tomorrow night when I am at a darker site in Yuma with a bigger scope and maybe a camera. It is always hard to get a real magnitude for a comet since one usually talks about integrated magnitude. However, I would say that it is not that different than Mirfak in Perseus which is 1.8, so much brighter than last night. This makes sense since it a lot bigger too. On Thu, October 25, 2007 9:01 pm, Sterling K. Webb wrote: Hi, Larry, List, Stuck under cloud cover so dense that even the nearly Full Moon does not even make a bright area behind it, I have only your description and my imagination to work with, but your observation could be of what is in effect an inner and an outer coma with different densities. The reflectivity of the coma is dependent on the density of the particles making up the coma. The usually even brightening of the coma toward a star-like condensation (the nucleus) is due to the continuously increasing density of particles as you proceed toward the nucleus, and that uniformity is the result of a more or less constant rate of outflow. The appearance of a brighter (hence denser) inner coma could be the density discontinuity or boundary between the spreading and dispersing coma of the original outburst and the expanding front of a new and greater outburst of an increased amount of material that has occurred more recently and is now expanding outward. Wouldn't that be great? I put in my request for a magnitude 0 or magnitude -1 comet by Saturday night! Let's have a bigger, better comet (and one that will last longer than my clouds). Larry, if you know the field of view of your scope, you can estimate the size of the coma. Every arc minute at the distance of Holmes 17P is 70,680 km across (or 424,000 km per degree). Is it bright? Brian Marsden says he's getting nova reports: This is a terrific outburst, said Brian Marsden, director emeritus of the Minor Planet Center, which tracks known comets and asteroids. And since it doesn't have a tail right now, some observers have confused it with a nova. We've had at least two reports of a new star. Go, Holmes! Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mark Langenfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:02 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P], continued Hi Again: We just looked at it with a 100mm f/5 telescope and it is clearly orange. However, it is also very obvious that this thing is unusual. I thought that I had a focusing problem, but the scope was in focus. There is a beautiful circular coma, but the condensation is NOT star-like. It is about 1/4 the diameter of the outer coma! Never seen anything like this. Larry On Thu, October 25, 2007 7:29 pm, Mark Langenfeld wrote: Even with the extra-bright full moon and the usual urban light pollution, 17/P Holmes is a nice naked-eye object here in Madison, WI this evening. The coma is suprisingly large and shows a bright, star-like condensation or center through 7X50 binoculars. I agree with Jeff that color is apparent, showing a yellowish --almost orange -- cast. If you haven't yet taken a look (and have clear skies), NOW is the time to get outdoors and witness this most unusual event. Mark - Original Message - From: Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 8:01 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P] Just to update those interested, there is no diminishing in brightness in fact there may be a slight increase. It defintely looks cometary in binoculars with a bright center and hazy coma. And as someone said last nite, it has a redish cast. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Comet Holmes
Hello Don: Sounds good to me! We could see all three in the same field of the binocs and then could see it even with the naked eye. Not bad for a nearly full moon! It looked a little reddish and the three of us (Nancy, me, and one of my students) all could convince ourselves that it did not quite look starlike (just a tad fuzzy). On top of that, saw ISS at -27 magnitude and the shuttle 90 degrees behind at -1.5 or a little brighter. Not a bad evening! Larry On Wed, October 24, 2007 7:33 pm, Don Merchant wrote: Hi List just went outside a few minutes ago. Tell me if I saw the comet. I looked down from Marfak (brightest star in perseus) to the next star called Delta Persei. Then I looked 2° to the left (which would be west at this time now) and BAM! This thing is bright!! Too bad no tail but my guess is something cataclysmic occurred internally and made it's way to the surface. So for those experts out there who have seen the comet does it seem as if I was looking in the right area and saw it? Just looking for some verification is all. Thanks Don M __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] comet holmes
Hello Jerry: Based on Starry Night, the Shuttle was about 360km away at closest and ISS about 390km away. At 300,000 km/sec (speed of light), we are talking about 1/1000 of a second for light to get from there to here. Not sure how far apart they were, but do not think that it was very much different than that. Larry On Wed, October 24, 2007 8:50 pm, Jerry wrote: What's the time interval for light transmission from this distance to earth? Jerry Flaherty __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] comet holmes, Oops
Too mnay objects running around. 1 AU = 149,600,000 km Comet Holmes = 1.6345 AU from earth this evening (in two days it will be down to 1.630 AU, better duck) This gives a distance of 244,500,000 km Speed of light is 299,800 km/sec So Light Distance = 816 seconds (give or take) Larry On Wed, October 24, 2007 9:29 pm, Sterling K. Webb wrote: Hi, Jerry, I don't know the exact distance to 17P (starts Googling). Light speed is 18 million kilometers a minute. If I did it right (don't hold me to it) Mars is 121,422,000 kilometers away right now (give or take), or a light travel time of 6 minutes, 44.67 seconds -- that's why all those phone calls you've been making to Mars are so expensive. Doug says: Comet 17P (Holmes) estimated at under 3.5 Km in diameter, and being twice as far from the Earth as the planet Mars I don't know if he means at the moment or that its perihelion distance is 2.1655 AU (and aphelion at 5.2 AU). Holmes has passed perihelion (May 4) and is heading out, so a long way. The Space.com article says it's 243,000,000 km away (twice as far as Mars, like Doug said) and assuming they mean actual Earth-Comet distance, the light travel time is 13 minutes, 30 seconds. Long distance call... Sterling K. Webb -- - - Original Message - From: Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:50 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] comet holmes What's the time interval for light transmission from this distance to earth? Jerry Flaherty __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Fwd: Earth Impacts
Hello Everyone: I just received this from a colleague of mine and rather give him my best guess, thought it would be best to ask the experts. Don McCarthy is an infrared astronomer an instrument builder who does everything from asteroids and comets, to extrasolar planets, to the origin of the Universe, to doing astronomy camps for kids and adults. Thanks in advance. Larry Hi Larry, I wonder if you help clarify a point about impact events and the Earth. For the numbers I see, Earth is likely to be hit annually by a meteoroid (2-3 meter) dissipating the energy of a Hiroshima bomb (~10 ktons TNT). This amount of energy seems very large. Do these generally go unnoticed because they explode in the atmosphere or over oceans? Is explode even the right word to use? Don __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] OT: Happy Birthday Sputnik...50
Dirk: 1 light year = 9.46 X 10^15 meters or 9.46 x 10^12 km. So, in 50 years: 4.7 x 10^14 km (470 trillion kilimeters). That is within range of a lot of stars. There are a 100 stars within 7.63 parsecs (almost 25 light years), so if you double the distance, there are about 800 stars (star systems) that have heard from Sputnik! Larry On Thu, October 4, 2007 4:15 am, drtanuki wrote: Hi List, Sputnik is now 50! Time flys. What does this have to do with meteorites?...much more than you might first think!...it totally changed our history and this One Step for Mankind will continue to lead to our future (survival/destruction) as well. Congrats to the dedicated Russians/Germans/Amerikans/Humans that worked dearly, for this feat regardless of the negatives it ushered in with all of the positives. Their personal sacrifice should be remembered. Anyone want to tune in their radio? bleep..bleep... BTW how far into space has Sputnik`s message now traveled after 50years??? Sterling...anyone??? Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] OT: Happy Birthday Sputnik...50
Hello Sterling: You need to take the ionosphere into account. If memory serves me, AM radio does not get through, while FM does. TV gets through, too. Hence the images of Hitler at the opening of the Olympics being picked up and re-transmitted in Contact. Or I Love Lucy in an episode of Amazing Stories. But, yes, your are right, we are filling space with noise. Larry On Thu, October 4, 2007 12:11 pm, Sterling K. Webb wrote: Hi, The Sputnik signal was very weak, powered as it was by fading batteries, and of short duration. But the true picture is that it was orbiting a rock sphere that was ablaze in the radio spectrum, that was already a powerful interstellar radio anomaly. For the last 100 years, a strange astrophysical phenomenon happened in our otherwise normal solar system. A strange dark body, very small, in orbit around this ordinary unremarkable star, suddenly brightened in the radio spectrum until, within decades, it outshone its star in emitted radio energy. If there are any radio astronomers within 100 light years, on planets of the 10,000+ stars within that radius, most (all) have discovered this inexplicable event. Using the high resolution possible with radio astronomy, they have observed that the invisible but ultrabright radio source shifts from side to side by many mega-glucks in a period of millions of ticks, and have rightly deduced that it is a planetary body that has gone incredibly radio bright. And over time, the growth of that brightness has been virtually exponential. That can mean only one thing. Critters. Us. If you wonder if the others know we're here, rest your mind. We are the neighbor with the 5700 watts of yard lights or the stereo playing heavy metal at 1200 watts with lots of bass boost... or both. We are Radio Raheem with the largest boombox in this neck of the Galaxy. Or, more like it, the 316,000 watt Christmas yard display going all year long because it just too pretty to turn off. Every time we shift some tranmissions to newer, non-emissive modes (fiber optics, satellites), we fill the void with new types of transmissions. Cell phones! We stay bright, and we continue to brighten. Think what it will be like when we have spread across the solar system and have every kind of interplanetary radiowave networks, a million meteor detection pulsed radars, and a 100 billion cellphones. We will be the brightest radio source in many thousand light years. Sadly, it also means that if they were anybody even remotely like us within 100 light years, they would look exactly the same to us. And there isn't any such radio source --- noisy, multi-banded, bright --- anywhere. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Mike Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; drtanuki [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 12:47 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] OT: Happy Birthday Sputnik...50 Hi Larry Damn that is a long way away. Hard to fathom how far away 50 light years is though. I wonder what the chances are of the signal directly hitting anyone of those 800 star/star systems. It is neat to think that the signal is so far away but unfortunately the signal would be unrecognizable to any alien cultures. It would just be too spread out (think of a radio station at a great distance) for anyone to pick it up. -- Mike -- Mike Jensen Jensen Meteorites 16730 E Ada PL Aurora, CO 80017-3137 303-337-4361 IMCA 4264 website: www.jensenmeteorites.com On 10/4/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dirk: 1 light year = 9.46 X 10^15 meters or 9.46 x 10^12 km. So, in 50 years: 4.7 x 10^14 km (470 trillion kilimeters). That is within range of a lot of stars. There are a 100 stars within 7.63 parsecs (almost 25 light years), so if you double the distance, there are about 800 stars (star systems) that have heard from Sputnik! Larry On Thu, October 4, 2007 4:15 am, drtanuki wrote: Hi List, Sputnik is now 50! Time flys. What does this have to do with meteorites?...much more than you might first think!...it totally changed our history and this One Step for Mankind will continue to lead to our future (survival/destruction) as well. Congrats to the dedicated Russians/Germans/Amerikans/Humans that worked dearly, for this feat regardless of the negatives it ushered in with all of the positives. Their personal sacrifice should be remembered. Anyone want to tune in their radio? bleep..bleep... BTW how far into space has Sputnik`s message now traveled after 50years??? Sterling...anyone??? Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Can Meteors Make You Ill?
Based on my vast experience, they can spawn zombies (and other similar things), carry invaders, and produce singing plants. I can always check my collection of bad and not so bad movies. Oh, you can also become a superhero, but if it is green, superheros need to beware. Larry On Wed, September 19, 2007 8:47 am, Ron Baalke wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7002506.stm BBC News September 19, 2007 QA: Do meteors make you ill? Hundreds of people in Peru have needed treatment after visiting the site of what they believe is a meteorite crash. BBC News looks at the health issues. What are the complaints? The symptoms are varied - ranging from eye irritation to headaches, dizziness and nausea. Several police officers who visited the site had to be taken to hospital afterwards, and even a scientist wearing a mask at the scene declared the fumes were so strong his throat and nose flared up. What does a meteorite emit? Meteorites do not in themselves let off any dangerous fumes. They can however expose rotting organic matter, and the air can be filled with methane, hydrogen sulphite and carbon dioxide. But there is some debate as to whether this is a meteorite - or indeed an object from space - in the first place. Some scientists are suggesting that people may have witnessed a fireball, set off to investigate, and found a lake of sedimentary deposit that was already there. The biological process here could mean that the kind of fumes listed above are also emitted. Can these really make people feel so ill? Intense smells, even those that are not particularly toxic, can make people feel poorly, while high levels of carbon dioxide mean people at the site may not be getting enough oxygen. At a purely physiological level, walking some way with some trepidation as to what one might find could well have an impact on the body and produce feelings of nausea and dizziness, sensations which may be compounded by the fact that other people say they are suffering from the same complaint. So could mass hysteria play a role? Symptoms could well be caused in part by what is known as a Mass Sociogenic Illness (MSI). There are countless examples of this through history and up to the present day. Amid fears of a gas leak late last year for instance, dozens of British pupils were taken to hospital with nausea and other symptoms. However no gas or environmental cause was found, and doctors could establish nothing wrong with the children. It was ascribed to mass hysteria. Meanwhile, the Belgian Coke scare of 1999 - when many said they fell sick after drinking contaminated cans - was also said to be an example of MSI when laboratory analysis showed levels of contamination were not high enough to cause any of the illnesses reported. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Call for papers for Meteorite magazine
Hello everyone: I leave for Denver tomorrow morning (Thursday) and hope to see many of you there. It is that time again for submission of articles to Meteorite. The August issue should be on its way and Nancy and I are just finishing off the proofing of the November issue (it never ends). We did get a response for an article on etching (thank you Bill Mason) and this should be in the November issue. We have had suggestions from one of our readers for a number of topics: 1. An overview of K/T boundary sites (rock types, location, etc.). 2. Occurences of diamonds in meteorites and impactites. 3. Chinese tektites, SE Asian tektites. As usual, we are open to any suggestions or ideas for articles. I hope to talk to some of you when I am in Denver over the next few days. Larry __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Help: Eucrite image for Meteorite magazine
Hello list: We are doing an article that could use an image of a eucrite (sliced surface, not thin section). If anyone has an image that can be used (credit will be given), I would appreciate it. It should be at least 100 k or larger. Please send it directly to me. Thanks in advance. Larry Lebofsky Editor, Meteorite magazine __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Help: Eucrite image for Meteorite magazine
Everyone: Nancy and I went out for an afternoon show and came back to 12 responses to my call for help! Thanks for the quick responses. Given this is a holiday weekend in the US, I am amazed by all of the emails. Now we have to choose from a wonderful selection. Thanks again to everyone. Larry On Sun, September 2, 2007 1:24 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello list: We are doing an article that could use an image of a eucrite (sliced surface, not thin section). If anyone has an image that can be used (credit will be given), I would appreciate it. It should be at least 100 k or larger. Please send it directly to me. Thanks in advance. Larry Lebofsky Editor, Meteorite magazine __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] beating a dead horse?
Hi All: To add to Jerry's comment, we saw Vesta tonight too (along with 35 students). Tomorrow it is a little further from Jupiter (2/3 the Moon's diameter), but is due North of Jupiter, about a bright as Callisto (faintest of Jupiter's 4 main satellites). Larry (just missing the rain that came in) PS Talking about pyramids, for those of you old enough (who have not put such things out of their minds) we used to live 1 mile north of the Center of the Universe (here in Tucson): THE Pyramid of Pyramid Power fame was down the road from our house. You could get your knives sharpened, but forget what else it was good for. Eventually, the owner realized that Hawaii was a nicer place for centering the Universe. On Wed, August 29, 2007 8:16 pm, Sterling K. Webb wrote: Hi, http://stage6.divx.com/Outlaw-News/video/1529589/Mars,-the-Pyramids-and-C hanges-in-the-Solar-System I yield to no one in my love of Free Speech, but I'm beginning to think that there should be, not a prohibition, but a limit on Drivel in Excess. I propose the enactment of Drivel limitation legislation: the Anti-Drivel Act (ADA). Two hours and 22+ minutes of Drivel is too much Drivel. How about a one-hour limit per Drivel Segment? You could have as many Drivel Segments as you want, but we wouldn't have to listen to more than hour's Drivel at one time. (I could live with even shorter Drivel Segments.) It would mean the end of the internet, though Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] beating a dead horse? On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 22:11:47 -0400, you wrote: Vesta forms a nice isosoles triangle with moons of Jupiter. Don't tell that to THIS guy: http://stage6.divx.com/Outlaw-News/video/1529589/Mars,-the-Pyramids-and-C hanges-in-the-Solar-System __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Weston
M. Robson gave a talk at MetSoc meeting here in Tucson on Thursday. There is something less than 50 pounds accounted for (I think). I am trying to get him to write an article for Meteorite, but it probably would not be until the February issue. Larry On Sat, August 18, 2007 6:05 pm, Sterling K. Webb wrote: Hi, Darren, List, The NHM Catalogue of Meteorites says: After the appearance of a fireball (traveling from N to S), and detonations, a shower of several stones fell over an area about 10 miles in length. The total weight was estimated at 330 lb .(149.7 kg) and the largest stone, which broke into fragments, at 200 lb. (90.7 kg), B. Silliman J.L. Kingsley (1809, 1869). It further lists 3220.4 grams (3.22 kg) in fourteen institutional collections. Does this mean that 330 lb. were collected of which the location of only 50 lbs. is known? Known by whom? The biggest piece listed by the NHM Catalogue is 1200 grams at ASU in Tempe. I assume your source is Yale's Peabody Museum: http://www.yale.edu/peabody/collections/met/met_weston.html which has the 16,571 gram piece (36.5 lbs.). Apparently, the NHM does not recognize Yale University as an institution, or the Peabody as a collection, or something similarly twitty. Or perhaps Yale is not known to the NHM. The 7 lbs. that are listed by the NHM, subtracted from the remaining 14 lbs., leaves 7 lbs., or less than 3200 grams, in the hands of private collectors, assuming this kind of arithmetic is correct, which it likely isn't. The key word is known. The article says 50 lbs. are known. Known by whom? Known in what time frame? 40 years ago? In a world where the British Museum does not know about Yale University, what does known mean? With an old fall, there may be (are) collected pieces whose present owner does not know what they are. Almost two centuries for pieces to diffuse through collections allows for a lot of spread. And there were 330 lbs. to start with (Yale says 350 lbs.). It's still on the planet... somewhere. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 6:38 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Weston Any estimates of how much of Weston is in private collections? I read one source saying only around 50 lbs are known, around 36 pounds in one mass. So if accurate that would obviously leave only around 14 pounds for other museums and private collectors. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Martian Meteorite Heat Ablation?
Chris beat me to this. The scale height of Earth's atmosphere is about 6 km and Mars is about 11. So, in the range where meteors burn up and where aerobraking is important, th martian atmosphere is comparable to Earth's. I thought that it was still a little thinner than Earth, but will not argue with that (though I think that this was part of the problem with Beagle). Larry On Wed, August 8, 2007 12:24 pm, Mark Crawford wrote: On a similar point... what size would meteorites have to be to have a chance of being found on the moon? Small ones would vapourise, large ones would vapourise a lot of the sirface material... is it possible that any recognisable fragments would survive? Chris Peterson wrote: But Mars does have an atmosphere. Its surface air density is about the same as Earth's at a height of 31 km, and far more than the density in the region of Earth's atmosphere where we typically see meteors. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Cali chondrite fell extremely cold!
Hi All: My two cents. We had are usual asteroid lunch today (discuss them and other related topics, not eat them). I brought up this topic. Among others there was me, an asteroid person (used to do them modeling of asteroids and, yes, they are cold inside since the typical asteroid probably spends much of its time further from the Sun than the Earth); a meteorite person, Tim Swindle; and an impact person, Jay Melosh. We all agreed that meteorites will be cold (or at least very cool) when they land. The effects of heating due to entry and fusion crust formation should be gone in tens of seconds (while they are still falling). So their temperature on the ground should reflect their ambient temperature in space. By the way, they had never heard of the (very good) suggestion that a person touching a very cold meteorite may actually think that the burning sensation is heat and not cold. Larry On Mon, July 30, 2007 2:31 pm, Charlie Devine wrote: Hello Robert and list, Robert wrote: If you touch something that is extremely cold (such as dry ice), you feel a burning sensation. Too much cold becomes too hot. Robert further wrote: I wonder if people who claim that meteorites were hot to the touch, were simply mistaking the cold temperature as being hot. I've long suspected that was the case, Robert. Richard Pearl, in his 1975 book Fallen from Heaven: Meteorites and Man, reports the following regarding the fall of the Forest City, Iowa meteorite on 5/2/1890: This brilliant fireball, 'sputtering though its course like fireworks' traveled eastward, leaving a smoke trail and a noise like 'heavy cannonading' and a 'rushing sound' or 'unearthly hissing'. As at Estherville, a contested ballgame was in progress at the time. Although it was reported to be hot, a boy who picked up a piece from an unsinged stack of straw complained that it was 'so cold that it burned his hand'. Best wishes, Charlie __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NEW 'NATURAL HISTORY' MUSEUM IS OPENING
Hi Sterling: Thanks for the information. I am always concerned that when I teach my intro astronomy class that I may miss the latest discoveries. I will have to revise what I say about the Grand Canyon. Also since I do talk about units of measurement, if there are dinosaurs getting on the Ark, is the cubit larger than I remember from Sunday School? I did just look it up and there are several cubits, ranging from 1.5 to 4 feet. Again, thanks for the update, I will be sure to reference you in class! Larry On Sat, May 26, 2007 6:33 pm, Sterling K. Webb wrote: Hi, List, Yes, the entrance gates here are topped with metallic Stegosauruses. The grounds include a giant tyrannosaur standing amid the trees, and a stone-lined lobby sports varied sauropods. It could be like any other natural history museum, luring families with the promise of exciting and educational dinosaur adventures, but it's the brand new $27 million Creation Museum's Grand Opening this very holiday weekend, on 28th of May. http://www.creationmuseum.org/ Located within a day's drive of two-thirds of the US population in Petersburg, KY, near Cincinnati, interstates and an international airport. In the dioramas, two prehistoric children play near a gurgling waterfall, while dinosaurs cavort nearby. Dinosaurs are also seen boarding Noah's Ark. Outside the museum, scientists may assert that the universe is billions of years old and fossils are the remains of animals living hundreds of millions of years ago, that life's diversity is the result of evolution by natural selection, but inside the museum, no, the Earth is barely 6,000 years old and the dinosaurs were created on the sixth day of Creation. The Creation Museum makes extensive use of the latest in scientific technology to convince you that Science is A Lie, with high-tech displays and animatronic dinosaurs: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.creationist20may20,0, 7993512.story?coll=bal-nationworld-headlines Especially impressive, I'm told is the interactive exhibit that shows how The Flood cut the Grand Canyon. Who knew? So, if you know of any children whose minds you'd like to rot, what better place to take them on vacation? Here's a virtual walk-through on-line: http://www.answersingenesis.org/museum/walkthrough/ More news... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/6549595. stm http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/26/AR2007052 600908.html http://uk.reuters.com/article/wtMostRead/idUKN2621240720070526 It does simplify some thorny issues. How old is this primitive achondrite? 6000 years. How old is the Sun? 6000 years. How old is the Universe? 6000 years. What's the maximum amount of time a meteorite can take to get to the Earth? 6000 years. Just fill in all the blanks with the same answer. How old is humanity? 6000 years. Dinosaurs? 6000 years. Single-celled life? 6000 years. See. it's easy... How long does it take photons to travel from the Big Bang to the Earth? 6000 years. See, nothing to it. I wonder if they've got a diorama where Adam wrastles The Raptor? That would be entertainment! I sure hope they've taken all the appropriate precautions to ensure those big animatronic dinosaurs don't escape their enclosures and eat the Christians. I'd say more, but I'm pretty much speechless. (Is that a first?) Sterling I. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Hal Povenmire Contact Info?
Hal's email address was at the end of his article in Meteorite magazine in February (and has been sent to Geoff). On Sat, May 12, 2007 3:45 pm, Sterling K. Webb wrote: Hi, Everybody, Ah, this is the internet at its most typical. Before characterizing a man's work, you really ought to know something about them. Try: b. 1939; meteor observer and photographer of over 2000 fireballs; discovered the upsilon Perseids; first to map the full Georgiaite strewnfield; worked on the Baker-Nunn Satellite tracking cameras; worked for Project Apollo; and some of his bits'n'pieces are still sitting on the Sea of Tranquility; has 190 publications. Carolyn Shoemaker named asteroid (12753) Povenmire after him. http://www.astronomytoday.com/astronomy/interview3.html (also includes a summary of the lunar origin theory) Povenmire's last book, Tektites: A Cosmic Paradox (1997), contains a perfectly reasonable summary of tektites generally, much information about Georgiaites, on which Povenmire is something of an authority. It then has a series of essays about the origin question, first by John O'Keefe, who supported lunar origin, and another by the foremost geochemical authority on tektites, the appropriately named Billy Glass, who supports terrestrial origin. Then, we get O'Keefe's answers to Glass, and Glass's answers to O'Keefe, and back and forth again... each of whom have points the other has trouble with. The is also a completely balanced bibliography (199 items) of all the major scientific papers (up to the date of publication. Whether he's changed his mind about the origin of tektites in the last ten years, I can't say (I've changed mine about 7-8 times, altho I never liked the Moon as the culprit). He published an enlarged edition of this book in 2003. He's changed the subtitle from paradox to enigma. See The Meteorite Times: http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2003/January/Tektite_of_Month.ht m which also gives his address: Hal Povenmire 215 Osage Dr. Indian Harbour Beach, FL 32937-3508 The telephone directory says his phone number is (321) 777-1303. As far as finding him goes, I get about 2000 hits on Google with his name. Shouldn't be too hard to find if you have a computer and a minimum of two fingers. As far as tektites being settled, over and done with, finished, as a puzzle, forget it. There are still plenty of unexplained inconsistencies for every theory to be embarrassed by. One problem is that what most people think of as one theory, like the impact theory, is really multiple impact theories. Glass's impact theory (requires silt-sized sand grains but not coarse grains) is contradictory to Melosh's impact theory (tektites derived from deep sediments) which contradicts the impact theory that derives them from surface deposits, and so on. All the impact theories are different! Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Mike Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Mike Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 3:09 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Hal Povenmire Contact Info? [meteorite-list] Hal Povenmire Contact Info? Michael L Blood mlblood at cox.net Sat May 12 15:28:44 EDT 2007 Previous message: [meteorite-list] Hal Povenmire Contact Info? Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] on 5/12/07 11:24 AM, Mike Fowler at mqfowler at mac.com wrote: Before the ion microprobe, isotope analysis, and actual lunar samples for comparison, the lunar origin of tektites was tenable. Now it is not, and I wonder how someone who clings to a disproved hypothesis can be considered to be eminent in his field? Mike Fowler Chicago - Hi Mike, Not to be argumentative, but to add some perspective, 1) Disproved is relative. 2) If everyone in science lost all credibility whenever their perspective clashed with the majority of other scientists in their field not only would there be a huge loss in the number of scientists, but many of the greatest scientists in history would have gone unheard (and many have, no doubt). 3) Some might consider your above statement to be based in arrogance. Certainly it is founded in a narrow definition, if not outright misconception, of what is and what isn't scientifically acceptable. 4) Some of the greatest figures of science clear back to the Greeks held beliefs difficult to imagine. Freud, unquestionably the founder of psychology dramatically over emphasized sex, was himself a sexist believed psychoanalysis was an effective treatment. (as a result, many still do, in spite of results of comparative studies involving other forms of psychotherapy). None of which makes the other 95% of Freud's work one whit less monumental, any more than Plato believing in spontaneous generation undermines his significance. Best wishes, Michael
Re: [meteorite-list] Asteroid 3628 Bonìmcová - re search paper
Hi Rob: Let me see what I can do (should have a copy at work). Should I ask one of the authors any questions? I will be seeing Mike Gaffey tomorrow. Larry On Mon, April 16, 2007 4:48 am, Rob McCafferty wrote: Hi list Does anyone have access to and/or able to get me a peek-a-boo at this article. http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/arizona/maps/2006/0041/0008 /art3 I'd really like to peruse this. On the face of it, it looks a potentially fascinating article. Every day I learn a little more and yet the questions keep coming. Regards Rob McC __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] This is the funniest meteorite dealer I've seen?
Hi all: I am excited about the Mars CI/CM. Having studied asteroids as well as Mars and its satellites. I have not problems with this claim. Imagine -- the first documented meteorites from either Deimos or Phobos!! The Russians are wasting their time planning a sample return mission now that we have meteorites from one of Mars' satellites! :o) Larry On Mon, April 9, 2007 12:57 pm, Joe wrote: Hello everyone, I was looking around the internet and came across this link, I think you will get a kick out of it. these are supposed to be meteorites, they do not even resemble meteorites. But he Guarantees these to be authentc. sure hope is is not an IMCA member. http://www.rocksmuseumonline.com/index.php?pr=Home_Page http://www.rocksmuseumonline.com/index.php?pr=AR11 Joe Kerchner illinoismetoerites.com _ ___ Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food Drink QA. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=listsid=396545367 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] MAPS How many on the list subscribe
Hi Mike: It is an excellent journal, but definitely a real scientific publication. It is very different than Meteorite magazine (I read that too and recommend it to those of you who do not yet subscribe to it). Larry Lebofsky Co-Editor, Meteorite magazine [does this make my response an Ad?] On Tue, April 10, 2007 4:57 pm, tett wrote: Hello List, Want to sink my teeth into more technical puiblications w.r.t. meteorites and wonderd how many here subscribe to MAPS. If uou do, what do you think of the publication. Cheers, Mike Tettenborn Owen Sound, Ontario, Canada __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] To the dreamers
Hi Dave: My biggest criticism of many of my colleagues when they teach or go into a classroom: they tend to get excited by the high-powered science that they are doing and this tends to get lost on the kids. In most cases (there are a few strange ones) most of us real scientists got excited about astronomy by going outside (freezing our butts off) and watching a lunar eclipse, looking at the Moon, watching a meteor shower, or looking at the constellation patterns. This is not high-powered science, but this is what got us into it. It is probably the same for most meteorite scientists too: first you look at the pretty rocks and then you finally learn to appreciate them for their beauty and eventually their scientific value. Scientists tend to forget what got them started (their rock collections). Larry On Sun, April 8, 2007 8:59 pm, Dave Freeman mjwy wrote: Dear Gentlemen, List; I experienced an issue with two sides similar to this about ten years ago. Scientific rocks..ones to study, and pretty rocks...ones that require appreciation despite scientific importance. In the real world of total experience, one needs to ideally appreciate both. In the meteorite world, we all love a grand carbonaceous chondrite with CIA's, amino acids, but aren't pallesites just as cool? As with our quest for astronomy, one needs to take time to appreciate as well as study. Left handed and right hand proficient, Dave F. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Darren: I do not disagree with you on that. From an education point of view (I am trying to teach them astronomy), you want your students to understand what is going on with the sky. But at the same time, you want them to appreciate the wonders of the night sky (in this case) and with this appreciation comes understanding (I hope). In my case, with students who will not become scientists, first comes the awareness of what is up there (you can see the Moon during the day?). If they then learn something, then that is important too. At least I got them out there and appreciating/enjoying Nature and got them away from their textbooks (yeh, right) and their computers and video games. Larry On Sun, April 8, 2007 8:55 pm, Darren Garrison wrote: On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 10:52:01 -0700 (MST), you wrote: Hi Mal: We (actually Nancy) uses this at every teacher workshop that we do. It really points out the importance of learning astronomy (or any other science) by doing it and not just lecturing! That kind of goes against what I always thought Whitman's point in the poem was-- that you should enjoy nature, not try to break it down and analyze it. Sort of an anti-scientific statement, not a field-work vs. lab work argument. Whitman always struck me as a bit of a weirdo. :-) __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] To the dreamers
Hi Mal: We (actually Nancy) uses this at every teacher workshop that we do. It really points out the importance of learning astronomy (or any other science) by doing it and not just lecturing! Larry On Sun, April 8, 2007 8:09 am, Mal Bishop wrote: When I Heard the Learn'd Astronomer When I heard the learn'd astronomer, When the proofs, the figures, were ranged in columns before me, When I was shown the charts and diagrams, to add, divide, and measure them, When I sitting heard the astronomer where he lectured with much applause in the lecture-room, How soon unaccountable I became tired and sick, Till rising and gliding out I wandered off by myself, In the mystical moist night-air, and from time to time, Looked up in perfect silence at the stars. Walt Whitman (1819 - 1892) Just a little something to ponder for all of us who racked our brains whether in the formal halls of academia, or in our on self imposed intellectual pursuits, meteorically or otherwise. Happy Easter to all you care! Mal __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] To the dreamers
Hi Darren: I do not disagree with you on that. From an education point of view (I am trying to teach them astronomy), you want your students to understand what is going on with the sky. But at the same time, you want them to appreciate the wonders of the night sky (in this case) and with this appreciation comes understanding (I hope). In my case, with students who will not become scientists, first comes the awareness of what is up there (you can see the Moon during the day?). If they then learn something, then that is important too. At least I got them out there and appreciating/enjoying Nature and got them away from their textbooks (yeh, right) and their computers and video games. Larry On Sun, April 8, 2007 8:55 pm, Darren Garrison wrote: On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 10:52:01 -0700 (MST), you wrote: Hi Mal: We (actually Nancy) uses this at every teacher workshop that we do. It really points out the importance of learning astronomy (or any other science) by doing it and not just lecturing! That kind of goes against what I always thought Whitman's point in the poem was-- that you should enjoy nature, not try to break it down and analyze it. Sort of an anti-scientific statement, not a field-work vs. lab work argument. Whitman always struck me as a bit of a weirdo. :-) __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Call for papers for Meteorite magazine
Hi everyone: You should all have gotten or will soon get your February issue of Meteorite magazine. Nancy and I have just sent off all of the articles for the May issue to the publishers. So, it is now time to think about the August and November issues! The submissions deadlines for these are May 18 and August 17. If you have any suggestions for articles that you might be interested in submitting, please contact us. We have had a request from a novice collector for an introductory article on etching. If anyone is interested in writing such an article please contact us. Please note that we already have an article coming out in the May issue on how NOT to etch a meteorite! If you have not already done so, please remember to renew your subscriptions to Meteorite. All subscriptions begin with the February issue and run for the calendar year. If you are a new subscriber and you subscribe now, you will still get the February issue. We hope that you are enjoying the articles in the magazine and if you have suggestions for topics for future articles, let us know. Larry and Nancy __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] 70th annual meeting of the Meteoritical Society
Hi Jerry: I will be there (here)! I think Anne Black is also thinking of coming. It is a dry heat. Larry On Mon, March 19, 2007 6:12 am, Gerald Flaherty wrote: Good Monday Morning List, Dawn and I plan to attend the 2007 Meteoritical Society Meeting at Tucson August 13-17. We expect that much of the Science will no doubt be over our heads. Oddly enough, what inspired our decision were the pre and post field trips which include Arizona birding, Meteor Crater and the Grand Canyon among other possible sites. David Kring will lead the geologic excursion and Drew Barringer will be our host at the Crater. I understand that temperature will impact our enjoyment but the positives seem worth the discomfort. I wondered if any List members paln to attend? Jerry Flaherty __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could Venus Watch For Earth-Bound Asteroids?
Hello List: I have observer a few asteroids in my life and have some problems with this article. I am away from home, so I am going mostly on memory and so these are only estimates; 1. If you are to put a telescope at the orbit of Venus, it would have to be in the same orbit as Venus, but not near Venus. If you are planning to observe in the infrared, you would want a Spitzer-type telescope. The Earth is hot and Venus would be hotter (so is the Sun)! Spitzer has a lifetime of about 5 years thanks to shielding from the Sun and Earth. I am not sure how much more of a problem there would be at the distance of Venus. HST with it CCDs is much easier to cool so does not have the limits of an infrared telescope. 2. Yes, asteroids are brighter in the infrared: but this is sunlight absorbed and re-emitted (heat). So, yes, you could observe asteroids at these wavelengths, but as stated about would need a cooled telescope. 3. While the idea of an asteroid coming at us out of the sunlight (worked in war movies), statistically, there are fewer of these asteroid (at least known). There are over 2000 known Apollo asteroids (cross Earth orbit, but mean solar distance greater than Earth's) and less than 400 Aten asteroids (cross Earth's orbit, but mean distance less than Earth's). There are known known asteroids with orbits wholly within Earth's orbit (at least none discovered). So, there are more things coming in from outside in than inside out. Yes, it would be better to look from closer to the Sun, but would have the bigger, brighter, hotter Sun to deal with (visible or infrared). 4. You would also be better off with more than one telescope. There is always the chance that the asteroid with our name on it would hit us at its first close pass (might not be able to do anything about it). But if that is so, you would want a telescope that is looking in the direction of the Earth at any given time. 5. Now, something that I just thought about that I cannot calculate here in my hotel room (in Disney World). How many asteroids have perihelion (closest distance to the Sun) that get anywhere near Venus? Most near Earth asteroids (NEOs) can only be detected when they are close to Earth (they are very small). These may never be detected from far away Venus. That is all I can think of at the moment. Larry -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Ron Baalke Gesendet: Freitag, 9. März 2007 22:50 An: Meteorite Mailing List Betreff: [meteorite-list] Could Venus Watch For Earth-Bound Asteroids? http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn11356-could-venus-watch-for-earth bou nd-asteroids.html Could Venus watch for Earth-bound asteroids? David L Chandler New Scientist 09 March 2007 A dedicated space-based telescope is needed to achieve a congressionally mandated goal of discovering 90% of all near-Earth asteroids down to a size of 140 metres by the year 2020, says a report NASA sent to the US Congress on Thursday. Asteroids of that size are large enough to destroy a major city or region if they strike the planet - but NASA says it does not have the money to pay for the project. The study says Venus is the best place for the telescope. That is because space rocks within Earth's orbit - where Venus lies - are most likely to be lost in the Sun's glare, potentially catching astronomers off guard. The telescope could be placed either behind or ahead of Venus in its orbit by about 60° - the stable Lagrange points, known as L4 or L5, where the gravity of the Sun and Venus are in balance. There are quite a few [objects] that are interior to Earth's orbit, NASA's Lindley Johnson told New Scientist. Those are really hard to detect [from Earth]; the opportunities to see them are very limited. From the orbit of Venus, however, you're always looking away from the Sun, always looking out, he says. And, of course, you can observe 24 hours a day - you don't have to worry about night and day. Even from Earth orbit, a telescope's view of any given part of the sky is blocked about half the time by the Earth itself. In addition, because Venus orbits the Sun in about two-thirds the time the Earth does, a telescope in that orbit would catch up with any near-Earth asteroids in their orbits more frequently than Earth does, offering more opportunities for discovery. You're able to sample that population more rapidly in the same amount of time, Johnson says. Missed deadline An infrared telescope would be more effective than one that studies visible light, because asteroids reflect sunlight more strongly at infrared wavelengths. The background sky is also much less bright in the infrared, providing better contrast for discovering even small, faint asteroids. With the Venus-orbit IR telescope, NASA could exceed its goal by three years, finding 90% of the most dangerous space rocks by 2017. But the space telescope is estimated to cost $1.1
Re: [meteorite-list] Peruvian meteorite crater -
Dear Mccartney: If you plan to go to Peru, please read the following. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pisco_sour When in Rome ... This is NOT Mexico (or Texas). Larry On Fri, February 23, 2007 2:48 pm, McCartney Taylor wrote: The hunt is on! I just talked to my friend down in South America, too. I got tickets to go. See you there Sonny! Sonny, Are you bringing the margarita mix for the field? We can pick up the alcohol cheap there! No nasty water for us! I've got the maps and the topos. This should be great! -mt Hi Randall, Thanks for the information. Would it be ok if I stay at your friends house? Will I need my own detector? Thanks, Your little Amigo ( Sonny ) __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Eastern Oregon Meteorite on Ebay
Hi Al and Edwin, etc. I have in my posession an article by Doug Borgard about Port Orford. The article will be in the May or August issue of Meteorite magazine. Larry On Mon, February 19, 2007 7:50 am, AL Mitterling wrote: Hi Edwin and all, Port Orford. I don't know if you have read any of my posts related to the Port Orford Meteorite. While I admit that it could be a hoax, I have quite a few problems with the research on the Port Orford and don't agree with much of what was said. Believe me when I say I am very well read up on all of the research and still disagree. My efforts to discuss these points with the researches were dismissed very lightly. Some of the items that don't make sense to me is the fact they used a copy of John Evan's map of his exploration of Oregon. It could be an accurate copy or it could have been a deliberate misrepresented copy as there was a lack of funds to pay for the publication of Evan's work. The copy was not in Evan's handwriting but looks to be in the handwriting of his wife. I firmly believe that the researcher was on the wrong mountain based on some descriptions used before his work and other published records. There seems to be an effort bent on making John Evans a mismanager of his funds but it fails to account for the fact that the Oregon gold rush was on then and that the cost of things were much higher than had been estimated. There is another character that comes into play who may have substituted the Imilac for the real Port Orford pieces if there truly were any. I know this sounds like a conspiracy theory but it has cost the government lots of money for answering letters, phone calls for people wanting to hunt for the meteorite and there has been countless rescues of people who don't take the rugged terrain seriously. Since my sister and brother in law live in this state I have spent many months in Oregon and have hunted myself. I could go on but it would be better for interested parties to look up my posts as well as that of a college who has investigate this extensively and brings out the points that don't seem to match up. I addressed this extensively on the Meteorite Impact forum when it was in existence. All my best! --AL Mitterling Edwin Thompson wrote: I would like for this to be Oregon's next find. Sadly, it looks like another hoax much like the Port Orford meteorite which turned out to be a transported piece of Imilac brought here to generate a bit of excitement and ended up created what is now considered to be the most sought after (and as yet unfound) meteorite in recorded history. For those of you that don't know the story, it is said to pe a pallasite the size of a prairie schooner! Cheers, Edwin __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim
Hi Randall: I will try to answer one of your questions. I wish I could give you details on how to get meteorites off of Mars, but this is something that I would have to talk to Jay Melosh about (if I can keep him in place long wnough). However, I can address the issue of asteroid/meteroid temperatures: The temperature of an asteroid depends on: distance from the Sun, how fast it is rotating, the nature of the surface material (rocky, dusty, high or low albedo, composition [at some level]). The closer it is to the Sun, the warmer. The dustier it is, the hotter it gets, but cools down at night. The slower it rotates, the hotter it gets at noon and the colder it gets at night. The dustier it is, the less the heat of the Sun can penetrate into the inrerior and so the cooler the inside stays. Typical main-belt asteroids can get up to about 250 K at noon at the sub-solar point, but will cool down to 125 K or so at night. Near-Earth asteroids will get warmer as they approach the Sun, but they tend to be rockier, which reduces the max temperature, but can still get warm to hot depending on how close to the Sun the asteroid gets. However, the average temperature will still be fairly low since the interior is usually well insulated and the asteroid still probably spends much of its time far from the Sun. I hope this helps. Larry On Wed, February 14, 2007 11:13 am, Randall Gregory wrote: Mr. Webb,McCafferty and others. If you don't mind, I have a few more questions. Do you know of a facility that could perform 187Os/186Os ratios testing at a reasonable price? Would element variations and ratios in the fusion crust be indicative of extraterrestrial origin. In other words, would the capture and melting of space dust into the fusion crust, thus causing elemental variances be a good indicator? Do you know of any comparative analysis of the fusion crust/matrix that could be identified as high versus low atmospheric heating? Does rapid atmospheric heating alter the fusion crust differently than terrestrial heating? Do you know if artificial ablation has been compared to natural ablation on meteorites? I tried different types of heat on a sample that I fractured and found that an artificially heated sample created a very different type of fusion crust. The artificial crust was glassy and somewhat brittle. In the vacuum of space, all meteorids would receive solar radiation in varying degrees and cooled by space itself. Could the temperature of a near-earth meteroid be projected from it's mineral characteristics? In other words, we know meteorites are cold, but the question is how cold are they before they reach the Earth's atmosphere? Thanks, Randall - Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.__ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim
Hi Randall and Others: I did some checking. To quote Tim Swindle: Yes, there may be meteorites from Venus, but we have not found them yet! It is much more difficult to get something out of the gravity well of Venus, through the Venus atmosphere, and out of the gravity well of the Sun. It is much easier to get things off Mars and let Poynting Robertson effect, etc. bring it in toward the Earth. How would we recognize a Venus meteorite? Argon dating. Potassium decays to argon. At the temperture of the Venus surface, the argon would almost immediately escape. So, would not create argon 40 that could be retained by a rock until it was out in space. Therefore, its argon age would be about the same as its cosmic ray exposure age. Larry __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Sikhote-Alin Picture of the Day - February 07, 2007
Hi Tracy: Yes there is! Nangasohu Katsina, Chasing Star or Meteor Katsina According to some Hopi this Katsina represents a planet but to many others it is a meteor that is the Chasing Star. The Katsina wears an enormous head dress of trailing eagle feathers, carries a yucca whip and a bell and appears in pairs. Larry and Nancy On Wed, February 7, 2007 10:17 am, tracy latimer wrote: There's an official Meteor Kachina?!? Tracy Latimer From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Sikhote-Alin Picture of the Day - February 07, 2007 Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 23:51:34 EST http://www.spacerocksinc.com/February_7.html __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ FREE online classifieds from Windows Live Expo buy and sell with people you know http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwex001001msn/direct/01/?href=http:// expo.live.com?s_cid=Hotmail_tagline_12/06 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Space station moves to avoid debris
Hi Sterling: I am not a munitions expert, but I think it would be more appropriate to compare the meteoroid with a speeding bullet. The TNT energy is released in all directions while a bullet's (or meteoroid's) energy is directional (at the target). I have seen what the window of the Shuttle looks like after it has been hit by a paintflake. It looked like a beebee gun had been using the window for target practice.: http://www.biblehelp.org/ufo4.htm Larry On Sat, February 3, 2007 5:55 pm, Sterling K. Webb wrote: Hi, Rob, Darren, List, One gram traveling at 1000 m/sec, when stopped abruptly, releases its kinetic energy, which is 1000 joules [kg x (m/s)^2]. The combustion energy of TNT is 4600 joules per gram, so that energy release is the equivalent is 217 milligrams of TNT. Doesn't sound like that much, does it? In the USA, the legal limit for fireworks is 50 milligrams of pyrotechnic material. [Code of Federal Regulations, Title 16, Volume 2, Section 1500.85]. This is the traditional M-50, or perhaps the cherry bomb. Since pyrotechnics are weaker than TNT, imagine four to eight cherry bombs concentrated on one tiny spot... Of course, today's cherry bombs are not as good as yesterday's (pre-regulation) cherry bombs, but as a child, I fractured the brass casing (3 x 12) of a shell for 37mm anti-aircraft cannon with ONE cherry bomb. No better fun for an nine-year-old than a bagful of small high explosives and a bunch of old cannon shells, is there? How thick are the walls of your space station? Your space suit? Your visor? That hose you're breathing through? Or any of the thousands of things you need to stay alive? If that gram is coming in from beyond the Earth's gravity, you could close on it at almost 20 km/sec, the equivalent is about 85 grams of TNT. Disastrous. If the orbit of a piece of rubble is not oriented with your orbit, but at an angle to it, you and the object are crossing at some vector product of your velocities. This is the most serious and likely hazard. If you were in an equatorial orbit and the rubble was in a polar orbit and you had a geometrically perfect collision, the impact velocity would be 1.414 times the orbital velocity, with each gram carrying the equivalent of 27.3 grams of TNT in kinetic energy. Known in the trade as the Chop Suey Special. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Rob McCafferty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gerald Flaherty [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Space station moves to avoid debris --- Gerald Flaherty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: but a centimeter sized particle traveling at those speeds?? Help. Jerry Flaherty What Darren said is how I understand it too. As for 1cm particles, nah This shield is designed to protect against micrometeorids travelling at a relative speed of 20km/s. It'll not protect you from big stuff though I suppose the relative speeds of orbital debris is likely travelling much slower. Even so, wouldn't fancy their chances against a pea sized bit of weather sat even if it ONLY had a collision speed of 1000m/s Rob McC __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Walter Branch
Dear Sabrina: Our prayers are with you and Walter. Larry Lebofsky (Tucson) On Fri, February 2, 2007 4:58 am, Walter Branch wrote: Hello, I am Walter Branch's wife, Sabrina. On Friday, Walter and our daughter were in an accident. Walter is in critical condition in Trauma ICU. He has numerous internal injuries including 5 broken ribs, a punctured lung, a bruised lung, a ruptured diaphragm (repaired Friday night), his kidneys are not functioning as they should, his spleen was removed, and he had a compound fracture of the right femur. He is under heavy sedation due to agitation, but when they back off the sedation, he is alert and in a great deal of pain. He is on minimum life support at the moment. When I saw him yesterday, I asked him if I should let all of you know and he nodded yes. Please keep us in your prayers. Our daughter is home from the hospital with a concussion, whip lash, and a fractured pelvis. If Walter had an on-going transaction with you, please be patient. As soon as he is able to tell me what to do, I will try to do what I can. Sincerely, Sabrina Branch __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] interesting speculation Pacific 'Basin' origin
Back in the dark ages (1950s and early 1960s), before the Dawning of the Age of Aquarius (Which really starts somewhere between 2060 and 2100), we were taught (and some of us even taught) that it was interesting how it looked like South America fit into Africa and that the Pacific Ocean basin was about the size of the Moon. One of the models for the formation of the Moon was the binary fission model: the Earth was rotating fast enough to spin off the Moon. There are a lot of problems with this model, but it sure looked good when one looked at the size and shape of the Pacific! It still hung on even after the discovery of moving plates. This model hung on until at least the mid 80s (Alan Binder, et al.), but with the advent of the Giant Impact model (Hartmann and others), the other models (fission, co-accretion, and capture) began to lose favor. Larry On Mon, January 29, 2007 2:30 pm, Gerald Flaherty wrote: Just for fun, before we understood about plate tectonics and thought that land only moved up and down, not back and forth, it was widely believed that the Pacific Ocean was, not an impact feature, but an outpact feature, the place where the Moon spun off the Earth, leaving what would be the largest basin in the Solar System (if it were true, that is). Sterling Webb Hadn't heard this before but often considered the break up of Pangea etc., a result of impacts. A string of cometary material similar to that which impacted Jupiter in the late 90s might do a superb job of perforating the continents into a myriad of interesting shapes. Or as the multiple strings of impact craters seen on the Martain surface describe. Not that impacts are needed to explain such phenomena. Ordinary tectonic gyrations probably provide an ample source for the stretching and contorting going on worldwide today. Jerry Flaherty __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Average size of craters across the solar system?
Hi Darren: Lots of other factors going on: Extra velocity caused by the gravity of the impacted body. Composition of the surface being hit. Composition/density (and thus mass) of the impactor. Surface processes that will affect the loss of craters or their just fading away. At some point, with an old surface, you get saturation of craters, so reach a certain limit on number and size of craters. I am sure there are other things, but it has been a long day. Larry On Sun, January 28, 2007 5:47 pm, Darren Garrison wrote: I was just thinking about this, wondering if anyone has tried to compare average sizes of craters across bodies in the solar system? I was thinking along the lines that, since orbital velocity is higher the closer an object is to the sun, then there should be more bang for the buck for impactors. So, shouldn't for example, the average crater size on Mercury be bigger than the average crater size on the moon? __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] SNOW in Tucson! Get ready to be cold. NOT
Hi From (usually) warm and sunny Tucson. First the good news: It should be lows around 40 F (4 or 5 C) and highs around 70 (20 C) and sunny by the weekend with little chance of rain. That said, here is the webcam picture from the University of Arizona campus. http://www.cs.arizona.edu/camera/ If you could see the mountains, they would be covered with snow (that is what we can see from our kitchen window), however, as I keep looking at the updated picture, it is getting clearer. What is unusual is that it snowed (2 inches) down town, but up where I live, north of town and about 100 ft (35 meters) higher, we got almost nothing. By the time it got cold enough, it had stopped raining (but I cannot through the trash out because the lid to our trash can is frozen shut). So, I predict (ha, it was supposed to be sunny yesterday) that we will have perfect weather for all of you when you get to Tucson. I look forward to seeing many of you here. Start thinking about articles that you would like to write for Meteorite magazine (or what you would like to see in the magazine). Larry __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Tunguska Video
Hi All: I sort of remembered something done on the History channel. So I did a Google search and found: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1239210472564794775q=Tunguskahl=en A 5-minute video on Tunguska. In its usual style, despite interviewing several scientists including Don Yeomans, the History Channel makes it sound like the scientists just might be wrong and the Tunguska event may have been an exploding UFO! If it is on TV, it must be right. Larry On Mon, January 22, 2007 2:05 am, Fred Caillou Noir wrote: Dear Walter, As far as I remember it was not a vodeo of Tunguska but rather Sikhote Alin... Best wishes, Frederic Lyon, France - Original Message - From: Walter Branch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 2:58 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Tunguska Video Didn't someone post to the list, I believe it was sometime last year, of a Russian made video with English subtitles that was a documentary of the first Kulik expedition to the Tunguska site? I can't seem to find it. I have the one for Sikhote-Alin but I thought there was another one on Tunguska. -Walter Branch __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Tired of winter? Not headed for Tucson soon?
Hi Dave: My last two emails to the list have failed to get through; do not know the problem. If you get this, but not a second copy from the list, please send it on. We had a cold spell earlier this week (lows in the upper 20s), but it has warmed up a bit (may get rain this weekend and I have a girlscout overnight and two evening teacher workshops, where we are to observe the night sky). However, by the start of the show we should be back up to the upper 30s/low 40s at night and mid 60s during the day (not bad). By the way, nice picture of where I work (off the picture to the right) and my house, just about in the middle of the picture, but probably hidden by the trees :-). Larry On Tue, January 16, 2007 5:53 pm, Dave Freeman mjwy wrote: Dear List; Not going to Tucson? How about a fast trip today? Here is a photo web look at Tucson today! The high here in RS WY was 6 degrees. Sunny Catalina Mtns. Tucson, AZ. Best, Dave F. http://www.cs.arizona.edu/camera/week.html __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Comet McNaught Update
Hi Jeff: My last two emails to the listserv have failed, so this is probably only going to you. Nice pics, even though you have not seen the comet. we saw it the end of last week after sunset (had the neighbors come out wondering what we were doing) and saw it in the middle of the day on Sunday (blocking out the sun). Since it is moving south, we will lose it completely in a few days. Larry On Wed, April 16, 2003 7:09 am, Jeff Kuyken wrote: Hi all, Unfortunately I still haven't been able to view the comet from down under. When the smoke cleared today... the clouds rolled in! Anyhow, another brilliant summer sunset from Melbourne, Australia. http://www.meteorites.com.au/oddsends/sunset.html Cheers, Jeff __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] LARGE fireball report!
I beg to differ, it is Gamera who shoots flames as he flies through the Solar System. Larry On Tue, December 19, 2006 4:46 pm, Darren Garrison wrote: On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:19:22 -0700, you wrote: That close to Tokyo, I'd suspect Rodan or Mothra g. Rodan? Mothra? Be serious! Those are Earth creatures. Mike obvioulsy saw King Ghidorah! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Ghidorah __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] OT -- Mercury Transit
Hi from Tucson where Global Warming seems to be in action. We (Astronomy Department, Planetary Sciences Department, and Flandrau Science Center) had more than 10 telecopes set up (including two 20-inch scopes). We were able to see all but the last five minutes of the event (went behind the trees). However, it was 88 F or 89 F here (too tired to convert to C or K). Five hours in the Tucson Sun with not a cloud to be seen! We had several telescopes (including mine) with H-alpha filters and so were able to see a few sunspots as well as several soiar flares. Oh yes, and Mercury! Larry On Wed, November 8, 2006 2:16 pm, Matson, Robert wrote: Hi Sterling, Fortunately, we've got an 8 S-C out with a solar filter here at work, so I've been able to follow the progress of the transit just fine outdoors. I was just hoping to see the greater detail afforded by a big scope... --Rob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 1:05 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: tracy latimer; Matson, Robert Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] OT -- Mercury Transit Hi, I suspect overwhelmed servers. I got several Server Not Available messages. But the rest of the sites I tried just rolled over and died. I guess it's nice that more people than one might have thought wanted to watch a live celestial event. I hope the servers didn't just fail and somebody got to see it. Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Which Arizona SHOW is the biggest and what are the dates for 2007
Hi Jerry: No. No other meteorite meetings at that time. This just happens to be the time of year that they always hold the Meteoritical Society meeting. It is my understanding, however, that they will have some meteorite displays at the meeting, but I do not know the details. Larry On Tue, November 7, 2006 6:47 am, Gerald Flaherty wrote: I just received a notice for the 2007 Meteoritical Society annual meeting. The dates are August 13-17. Does this coincide with either the Tucson or any other major mineral[meteorite] show in the area?? Jerry Flaherty __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Chondrule formation mechanism (Info Please)
Hi Sterling: Derek's book is only $107.50 on Amazon.com. I hope that Derek will be writing an article for the February issue of Meteorite magazine. Larry On Tue, October 24, 2006 11:28 am, Sterling K. Webb wrote: Hi, For those interested in follow-up to Sears' theories but reluctant to pop for the new book: Here's a nice (free) piece by Sears (cheaper than buying the $110 book...) http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc97/pdf/1179.PDF A summary of some of Sears' views (by Bernd Pauli): http://www7.pair.com/arthur/meteor/archive/archive4/Feb98/temp/msg00213.ht ml The best tests are experimental: Chondrules can be made in the laboratory: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/fiery_rain_000809.html Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Warin Roger To: Sterling K. Webb ; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: E.P. Grondine Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 11:15 AM Subject: Re : [meteorite-list] Chondrule formation mechanism (Info Please) Hi, all, I am surprised that nobody evoked the theory following which chondrules were formed in relatively very few privileged zones of space. They would then form through one or more impacts of relatively large asteroids, onto the parent body covered with regoliths (and even with megaregoliths). The excellent book of Derek Sears, entitled The origin of chondrules and chondrites (Cambridge Planetary Science, 2004) supports this hypothesis. In corollary, ordinary chondrites (85% on Earth) would be quite rare in cosmos, and only few parent bodies would produce chondrites. Glad to hear some comments on the above assumptions. Thanks, Roger Warin - Message d'origine De : Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] À : meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc : E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] Envoyé le : Dimanche, 22 Octobre 2006, 20h38mn 55s Objet : Re: [meteorite-list] Chondrule formation mechanism (Info Please) Hi, Ed, Rob, This scenario (Ed's) would require that we would find a chondrule with a formation age of 3.9 Gya, I think. As far as I know, that has never happened. All chondrites (so called because they contain chondrules) are the same age: about 4.555 Gya. Chondrules are the same age (2 to 5 million years variation among chondrules) as the chondrites they occur in. The about is because the dating methods have a limit to how precisely they can resolve small age differences. Dating by lead isotopes says the solar system is 4.560 +/- 0.005 Gya old. Other systems of isotope measurements (like 147Sm/143Nd) give 4.553 +/- 0.003, and so forth. Within the limits of measurement, all chondrites are the same age, a hair younger than the solar system itself, the Class of Zero, and so are their chondrules. Meteorites that do not (never did) contain chondrules have varying ages. Lunaites are the age of that portion of the lunar crust they came from, generally quite old compared to Martians which have the formation age of the basalt flow they were chipped off of for the long haul to Earth. Irons, which formed inside a differentiating body, have younger ages; some very much younger if the differentiation took a long time (Weekeroo Station IIe is 4.340 Gya, Kodaikanal IIe 3.800 Gya, many IAB irons the same). I'm thinking that before you need to develop a theory to explain a 3.9 Gya chondrule, you'd have to actually have a 3.9 Gya chondrule. As far as I know, none with discordant ages have ever been found. In certain solar circles it would be Big News. Oddly, if you Google for oldest chondrule, you get the oldest chondrules, and if you Google for youngest chondrule, you get the oldest chondrules... on the grounds that it is young as the solar system. If you Google for discordant chondrule age, you get arguments over 2 or 3 million years in the age of something 4-1/2 billion years old. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 10:24 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Chondrule formation mechanism (Info Please) Hi Rob - You noticed the contradiction in cooling periods as well. What I am thinking is that there was at least one larger parent body which was disrupted about 3.9 Gya (at time of LPBE). When this larger parent body was disrupted, then the effervescent foaming that led to some chondrules occured - sudden cooling, as gravitation pressure had been released, and much lower local gravity. Local processes suddenly take over - a sharp gravitational and pressure transition, and a sudden cooling. Gross processes - perhaps sufficiently gross to overwhelm other small forces. Through collisions of the resulting fragments, we see some of the meteorite types we see today. good hunting, Ed
Re: [meteorite-list] More Than a Meteor Likely Killed Dinosaurs 65 Million Years Ago
Ed: Makes sense to me. There was a giant meteor and when all of the dinosaurs looked up at it they were blinded by the light. Made it difficult for them to find food! Larry On Tue, October 17, 2006 4:25 pm, E.P. Grondine wrote: Hi Ron - meteor impact? Didn't any one at NSF catch this? Even given this, the header should have read More Than One Meteor Likely Killed Dinosaurs 65 Million Years Ago quibble, quibble, quibble, Ed --- Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=108103org=NSFfrom=news National Science Foundation Press Release 06-150 More Than a Meteor Likely Killed Dinosaurs 65 Million Years Ago Growing evidence shows a series of natural events caused extinction October 17, 2006 Growing evidence shows that the dinosaurs and their contemporaries were not wiped out by the famed Chicxulub meteor impact alone, according to a paleontologist who says multiple meteor impacts, massive volcanism in India and climate changes culminated in the end of the Cretaceous Period. The Chicxulub impact may have been the lesser and earlier of a series of meteor impacts and volcanic eruptions that pounded life on Earth for more than 500,000 years, say Princeton University paleontologist Gerta Keller and her collaborators Thierry Adatte from the University of Neuchatel, Switzerland, and Zsolt Berner and Doris Stueben from Karlsruhe University in Germany. A final, much larger and still unidentified impact 65.5 million years ago appears to have been the last straw, said Keller, exterminating two-thirds of all species in one of the largest mass extinction events in the history of life. It's that impact - not Chicxulub - that left the famous extraterrestrial iridium layer found in rocks worldwide that marks the impact that finally ended the Age of Reptiles, Keller believes. The Chicxulub impact alone could not have caused the mass extinction, said Keller, because this impact predates the mass extinction. Keller is scheduled to present that evidence at the annual meeting of the Geological Society of America (GSA) in Philadelphia, on Tuesday, October 24, 2006. Chicxulub is one of thousands of impact craters on Earth's surface and in its subsurface, said H. Richard Lane, program director in the National Science Foundation (NSF) Division of Earth Sciences, which funded the research. The evidence found by Keller and colleagues suggests that there is more to learn about what caused the major extinction event millions of years ago, and the demise of the dinosaurs at the end of the Cretaceous. Marine sediments drilled from the Chicxulub crater itself, as well as from a site in Texas along the Brazos River and from outcrops in northeastern Mexico, reveal that Chicxulub hit Earth 300,000 years before the mass extinction. Microscopic marine animals were left virtually unscathed, said Keller. In all these localities we can analyze their microfossils in the sediments directly above and below the Chicxulub impact layer, and cannot find any significant biotic effect, said Keller. We cannot attribute any specific extinctions to this impact. The story that seems to be taking shape, according to Keller, is that Chicxulub, though violent, actually conspired with the prolonged and gigantic volcanic eruptions of the Deccan Flood Basalts in India, as well as with climate change, to nudge species towards the brink. They were then pushed over with a second large meteor impact. The Deccan volcanism released vast amount of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere over a period of more than a million years leading up to the mass extinction. By the time Chicxulub struck, the oceans were already 3-4 degrees warmer, even at the bottom, Keller said. On land it must have been 7-8 degrees warmer, she said. This greenhouse warming is well-documented. The temperature rise was rapid over about 20,000 years, and it stayed warm for about 100,000 years, then cooled back to normal well before the mass extinction. Where's the crater? I wish I knew, said Keller. Scheduled Presentations at the Geological Society of America meeting in Philadelphia: Chixculub Impact and the K/T Mass Extinction Pennsylvania Convention Center: 105 AB Tuesday, 24 October, 2:50 p.m. K/T Mass Extinction and the Lilliput Effect: Consequences of Impacts, Volcanism and Climate Change Pennsylvania Convention Center Wednesday, 25 October, 11:45 a.m. -NSF- Media Contacts Cheryl Dybas, NSF (703) 292-7734 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ann Cairns, GSA (303) 357-1056 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Related Websites Talk: Chixculub Impact and the K/T Mass Extinction: http://www.nsf.gov/news/longurl.cfm?id=14 Talk: K/T Mass Extinction: Consequences of Impacts: http://www.nsf.gov/news/longurl.cfm?id=15 The National Science Foundation (NSF) is an independent federal agency that supports fundamental research and education across all
[meteorite-list] Articles for the next issue of Meteorite magazine
Hi everyone: Well, it is that time again. Nancy and I are looking over the proofs for the November issue of Meteorite magazine and that means that it is time for us to start asking for new articles! The deadline is mid November (about 5 weeks away). So, if you have anything that you think would be worth publishing in Meteorite, please contact me at this email address. We are always looking for new authors and for those of you at universities, we are seeking articles by students, too. Larry Larry and Nancy Lebofsky Editors, Meteorite magazine 1371 E. Placita Mapache Tucson, AZ 85718 Please note that I am back in Tucson and no longer in Arkansas __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] First Detailed Pictures of Binary Asteroid Reveal Bizarre System
Hi Darren: Yes, you are right, but what do you expect from a reporter! However, it you look at the animation (and given that it is a binary), you can see the wobble of the larger mass as it is being pulled upon by the smaller mass and the larger one precesses on its axis (they both precess) due to the pull by the smaller mass. So, there is a gravitational effect beyond just one orbiting the other. Larry On Fri, October 13, 2006 10:37 am, Darren Garrison wrote: On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:55:50 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: Another interesting finding is that the two bodies in the asteroid system are orbiting so closely that they are caught in each other's gravitational pull. Wow. Who would have thought two bodies orbiting each other would be effected by gravity. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] 'Meteoroid Hits the Moon' Article Question
Hi Mike: Yes, this has to refer to the impact itself since when we normally use the term, it implies something coming through the atmosphere. As Editor, one wishes to be able to fix these things, but since it is just a news item, I tend not to change content. Just remember, too, this is a news article, and we all know how acturate they can be! Larry Editor, Meteorite magazine (lost my signature in our new email system) On Sat, September 30, 2006 4:43 pm, Mike Groetz wrote: Sorry for the ignorant question- but if someone could help me with this I would really appreciate it. Ref: The current issue of Meteorite Magazine (Aug. '06) Pg 5 news article. There are a couple of references to a fireball upon impact. My question is- if the moon does not have an atmosphere as such- how could there be a fireball without the gasses (oxygen, etc.) to burn? I could understand a large cloud of impact material ejected- but a true fireball? Sorry if maybe I am just reading this out of context. Thank you if you can help me understand. Take care Mike __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] COMETS AND CARBONACEOUS CHONDRITES
Hi Doug: Tell this to the astronauts in their space suits. I wish I still had access to my old thermal model programs so that I could give you real answers, but I will do my best. If you look up the surface temperture of the day side of the Moon, you get 107 degrees C. However, the noon temperture is well above 120 C (130 C ?). The mean and high temperture of an object is dependent on: Distance from the Sun Its reflectance (how much sunlight it absorbs) How fast it is rotating The size of the particles that make up the material (sand vs. rock) The lower the albdeo, the more sunlight you absorb, the hotter you get. The faster you rotate and the rockier your surface, the more heat you dump out the night side, so the lower your highest temperture. The Moon's day/night cycle is 29 days (slow) and its reflectance is 12%, so it gets fairly hot at noon. A typical NEO will rotate much faster, but if a C asteroid, it will have a much lower albedo (maybe 5% or 6%, but that really is not that much more energy since the absorbed energy is 88% vs 95%). Still, the asteroid will reach average daytime tempertures very close to 100 degrees C. The interior will be cooler (insulated), but will still be warm depending on the object's mean distance from the Sun. If anything is hard pressed to get above freesing at the Earth's distance, why does it get so hot on the surface of the Earth in the summer even though the Earth reflects 30% of the light that hits it? Go stand outside in July and tell me you are cold! Remember that the volatiles (water) are lcked in the minerals themselves (clays) and can withstand vacuum and moderate heating with being lost to space. Larry Quoting MexicoDoug [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hello Larry, In the case of carbonaceous chondrites, I believe your inference that Just being in an orbit that takes them near the Earth would warm them up to 100 c or so is way too high, and that the right number in direct Sunlight hovers around freezing (0 degrees C). There is that other related subject of whether chondritic meteorites are cool to touch when they land...but I'm not going there... To reach 100 C, by just being in an orbit near X, taking a carbonaceous chondrite as a model, I believe you would need to be a third of the way closer to Mercury's orbit from Venus' in today's Solar System. You mention Spitzer data. For comets on epic journeys through the Solar System, which have possibly been orbiting over 4.5 Billion years through all phases of development, there are many possible alternate sources of meaningful temporary heating during this history that could account for the gentle-moderate heating you mention, likely reasonable sized impacts and more so, shock heating from barreling through precursor Solar nebula components from their own soup they were formed out of in situ, not to mention other lower probabilities over time that chance favors. Maybe you meant something else? Even a lump of nickel iron is hard pressed to make 100 C in the Sunshine in Earth's neighborhood in outer space. The high volatiles concentrations in carbonaceous chondrites are supportive of what I say, I think, though of course they are NOT conclusive. Best wishes, Doug P.S. The Andromeda Galaxy, which dwarfs our own, may even collide with the Milky Way in 3 Billion years, two-thirds of the Sun's current age. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] COMETS AND CARBONACEOUS CHONDRITES
. They also contain calcium-aluminum inclusions (CAIs) - the most ancient minerals known in the solar system - that typically make up more than 5% of the meteorite. CO chondrites are named for the Ornans meteorite that fell in France in 1868. They some similarities in composition and chemistry to the CV chondrites and may have formed with them in the same region of the early solar system. As in the CV group, CAIs are present but are commonly much smaller and spread more sparsely in the matrix. Also typical of COs are small inclusions of free metal, mostly nickel-iron, that appear as tiny flakes on the polished surfaces of fresh, unweathered samples. CK chondrites are named for the Karoonda meteorite that fell in Australia in 1930. They were initially thought to be members of the CV group but are now grouped separately since they differ in some respect from all other carbonaceous chondrites. Their dark gray or black coloration is due to a high percentage of magnetite dispersed in a matrix of dark silicates consisting of iron-rich olivine and pyroxene. This shows they formed under oxidizing conditions, yet there is no sign of aqueous alteration. Elemental abundances and oxygen isotopic signatures suggest that CKs are closely related to CO and CV types. Most CK chondrites contain large CAIs and some show shock veins that point to a violent impact history. CR chondrites are named for the Renazzo meteorite that fell in Italy in 1824. They are similar to CMs in that they contain hydrosilicates, traces of water, and magnetite. The main difference is that CRs contain reduced metal in the form of nickel-iron and iron sulfide that occurs in the black matrix as well as in the large chondrules that make up about 50% of the meteorites. A possible parent body is Pallas, the second largest asteroid. The CH and CB chondrites are so closely related to the CRs that all three groups may have come from the same parent or at least from the same region of the solar nebula. CH chondrites are named for their High metal content. They contain up to 15% nickel-iron by weight and are closely related in chemical composition to the CRs and CBs. They also show many fragmented chondrules, most of which, along with the less abundant CAIs, are very small. As with the CRs, the CHs contain some phyllosilicates and other traces of alteration by water. One theory suggests that the CHs formed very early in the solar system's history from the hot primordial nebula inside what is today the orbit of Mercury, later to be transported to outer, cooler regions of the nebula where they have been preserved to this day. Mercury may have formed from similar, metal-rich material, which would explain its high density and extraordinary large metal core. CB chondrites, also known as bencubbites, are named for the prototype found near Bencubbin, Australia, in 1930. Only a handful of these unusual meteorites are known. All are composed of more than 50% nickel-iron, together with highly reduced silicates and chondrules similar to those found in members of the CR group. C ungrouped chondrites (C UNGRs) fall outside the other groups and probably represent other parent bodies of carbonaceous chondrites or source regions of the primordial solar nebula. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 5:48 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] 2003 EL61, IN PERSON Hi Sterling - With Chiemgau under challenge, the only evidence of heavy elements in comets that I can easily point to is the increased iridium at the KT boundary. I can't really comment on metals in carbonaceous chondrite meteorites, and right now I would be most interested in data from others on these. good hunting, Ed __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Dr. Larry A. Lebofsky Senior Research Scientist Co-editor, Meteorite If you give a man a fish, Lunar and Planetary Laboratory you feed him for a day. 1541 East University If you teach a man to fish, University of Arizonayou feed him for a lifetime. Tucson, AZ 85721-0063 ~Chinese Proverb Phone: 520-621-6947 FAX:520-621-8364 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] 2003 EL61, IN PERSON
that says: Now leaving the Solar System. No Gas Stations for 20,000 AU. In other words, there's nothing out there TO find. This, of course, is where all the bolts come loose and the wheels fall off! This is exactly where we are finding things. First called the Scattered Disc (on the assumption that Neptune tossed'em out there) and then the Extended Scattered Disk, or the Distant Detached Disc, we now have a slew of large interesting objects that Neptune could never have had anything to do with. Finding Sedna was kind of a last straw. Brown, who discovered it says, Sedna shouldn't be there. There's no way to put Sedna where it is. It never comes close enough to be affected by the sun, but it never goes far enough away from the sun to be affected by other stars... Sedna is stuck, frozen in place; there's no way to move it, basically there's no way to put it there - unless it formed there. But it's in a very elliptical orbit like that. It simply can't be there. There's no possible way - except it is. So how, then? Sedna has been explained as an Oort Cloud object, which tacitly moves the inner Oort Cloud boundary in from 20,000 AU to under 1000 AU and creates an Oort Disc in the bargain! Those Oortians are sneaky... They creep right up on you. Then some theoreticians have claimed that Sedna is the captured planet of another star. Kenyon at Harvard CfA: If we find planets with orbital inclinations of more than 40°, it is almost certain that these are extrasolar planets formed in another solar system. Then, along comes ERIS, the former 2003 UB313, which meets that qualification. Extra-solar planet? ...it would be real nice to get some good spectra of 2003 EL61 right now... Oh, for one lousy gritty gram of sample return, as there are only about 80 isotope assays any one of which could decide between material formed with Our Star or formed with Some Other Star! All these high inclination objects have also provided a big boost to the Sun's Companion Star theories we all remember so well, like Nemesis. It still has its backers, and they're all elated. Of course, what they don't tell you is that you don't need a brown dwarf star to perturb disc objects in inclination; all you need is an Earth mass object at 1200 AU. The Outer Outer System is waiting to be discovered... I think. Then, there's 2005 XR190, code name Buffy. If Sedna is impossible, then Buffy is impossibility cubed! The size of Ceres, it's in a nice normal almost CIRCULAR orbit inclined at 45 degrees to the solar system at 52 to 62 AU's out, dynamically independent of any influence from ANY solar system objects and is equally impossible as a star capture. Buffy is The Theory Slayer! Poof! Your life's work is dust... That we are finding ANY high-inclination objects is a miracle. Astronomers are STILL just looking at the Ecliptic and nowhere else. A high-inclination object is near or in the Ecliptic plane for just 2% of its orbital travel, so for every one you find there, there are 49 others you're MISSING, by not looking where they are! Duh! One of the best times ever is when Reality just flat outruns Theory and leaves it panting in the dust, don't you think? I certainly do. Of course, another effect of this situation is that the Theory Machines all get their throttles cranked up to Hyper Overdrive and a lot of Theory Juice gets splattered all over the place. What we actually need is to let the Theory Machines cool down and collect more Reality Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 9:23 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] 2003 EL61, IN PERSON Hi Sterling, list - but core-forming planetesimals all the way out in Kuiper Belt?! Yes, cometissimals - about 75 meters or so, which themselves can then accrete chaotically over time, with the heavy elements always gravitationally precipitating towards the center - the lighter volatiles always on the outside - and you have delivery to the surfaces of larger bodies - Given the problems this presents us for dealing with cometary impactors, it would be real nice to get some good spectra of 2003 EL61 right now, but as always, this kind of study recieves a low priority from the failed nuclear physicists who control the telescopes and observing budgets - by the way, the 64 fragments of SW3 should be in the Earth's vicinity in 2022, though I don't have any dead on forecasts yet - as a matter of fact, I wonder where they are, and how this is being handled, so if anyone hears anything, please pass it on - good hunting, Ed -- Dr. Larry A. Lebofsky Senior Research Scientist Co-editor, Meteorite If you give a man
Re: [meteorite-list] re: A break (was All Hail Eris ...) OT
Doug: While there is no precedent for naming dwarf planets, the Small Bodies Nomenclature Committee of the IAU http://www.ss.astro.umd.edu/IAU/csbn/ has authority over the naming of these objects (per the IAU resolution). As with ALL asteroids, the discoverer has the naming rights and can use an appropriate name. This may be in honor of someone, some place, or a character from mythology or literature, for example. There are certain rules: no political figures and no names that are the same or similar to existing asteroids/satellites (though Eris is close to Eros). Also, there may be some groups of asteroids that must meet certain naming requirements (Trojan asteroids must be characters from the Trojan war). I do not think there is any such policy for the Trans-Neptunian Objects, thus the names provided by Mike Brown. I like to give the example of my wife, Nancy, who is proud of the company she keeps. 5048 Moriarty 1981 GC Professor Moriarty, character in the Sherlock Holmes stories 5049 Sherlock 1981 VC1 Sherlock Holmes, fictional detective 5050 Doctorwatson 1983 RD2 Dr. Watson, character in the Sherlock Holmes stories 5051 Ralph 1984 SM * 5052 Nancyruth 1984 UT3 Nancy R. Lebofsky, American educator [MPC 25443] 3439 Lebofsky Quoting MexicoDoug [EMAIL PROTECTED]: All Hail Eris ?? Does the arrogance and sophomoronic Solar System smugness ever stop on our glorious stellar merry-go-round? Even I'm getting dizzy from this! Now we really do have cartoon dogs naming the new planetary discoveries in the further reaches of the Solar System without respect - like fire hydrants to mark out their territory (Lucy Lawless??, huh??) I heard some more bs gossip that Eris was approved as another crude joke. Backwards it spells Sire, a not so discrete comment on those hording the heavenly harems and immortalizing themselves as The Fathers siring The new race of bodies in The New Solar Order. What ever happened to the dearly dedicated, royally respectful, warmly wholesome, unadulterated and contagious, patiently passionate Clyde Tombaugh's of days' past; the suggestions of children -in other countries- naming planets. The kinds of role models that you just can't enjoy anymore over the morning waffles. Sharing, giving, vibrant enthusiastic attitudes of those whose love of the heavens eclipsed all else. Sterling shall I fire up the cauldrons, ready the Tar and pluck the chickens' feathers for you, to finish off decisively what you're starting with Marco, for only sharing his thoughts and opinions ... no, I'll just find a safe haven somewhere in the Solar System and crawl into it to watch the fireworks after letting off this little bottle-rocket into the anarchy... Best wishes, Doug Unsolicited Public Defender of Public Defenders __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
RE: [meteorite-list] Pluto is Now Just a Number: 134340
, 136108 and 136472, respectively. The MPC also issued a separate announcement stating that the assignment of permanent asteroid numbers to Pluto and other large objects located beyond the orbit of Neptune does not preclude their having dual designations in possible separate catalogues of such bodies. Marsden explained that the cryptic wording refers to the future possibility of creating a separate astronomical catalogue specific to dwarf planets. There might even be more than one catalogue created, he said. The recent IAU decision implies that there would be two catalogues of dwarf planets - one for just the trans-Neptunian Pluto type and the other for objects like Ceres, which has also been deemed a dwarf planet, Marsden told SPACE.com. That's why that statement was put there, to reassure people who think there would be other catalogues that this numbering of Pluto doesn't preclude that. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Dr. Larry A. Lebofsky Senior Research Scientist Co-editor, Meteorite If you give a man a fish, Lunar and Planetary Laboratory you feed him for a day. 1541 East University If you teach a man to fish, University of Arizonayou feed him for a lifetime. Tucson, AZ 85721-0063 ~Chinese Proverb Phone: 520-621-6947 FAX:520-621-8364 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto is Now Just a Number: 134340
Dear Herbert: I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this. I have known Brian for years and I have a great respect for the work he and the Minor Planets Center have done and are continuing to do. However, Brian has been a proponent of demoting Pluto for nearly a decade. By making Pluto asteroid 10,000, this would have in one way made its demotion official long before the IAU vote. It was premature then and what they have done is premature now. Yes, the Center archives the obsevations, yes, they oversee the numbering and naming of asteroids and comets (and satellites). However, as Sterling has pointed out, they do not have any jurisdiction over naming of planets (other than a provisional number at the time of discovery) and with the IAU vote, it is not at all clear that they have any jurisdiction over dwarf planets. That is yet to be determined by one of the IAU commissions. If we would have followed Brian's suggestion in 1998. That would have effectively ended the debate right then. Pluto would have been a minor planet, end of story. Larry Quoting Herbert Raab [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Sterling K. Webb wrote: Marsden has been trying to get jurisdiction over Pluto for a long time. If it isn't a planet, why does he want it so badly? As a matter of fact, the MPC already collects all available astrometric observations for Pluto for many yeras now, as it does for all minor planets (and that includes those which are now called dwarf planets), all comets, and all the outer, irregular satellites of the major planets. As you can see, the work of the MPC is not strictly limited to minor planets. Marsden suggested to award numer 10'000 to Pluto in late 1998. Not because he wanted to have jurisdiction over it, but because he foresaw the many discoveries of large TNOs we have now, and that we have either the choice to classify Pluto with the minor bodies of the solar system, or the end up in a sloar system with dozens of planets. Marsden wrote: Although it is not unlikely that further Transneptunian Objects as large as Pluto will be discovered in the future, Pluto obviously holds a very special place in our appreciation of this new population, and by assigning to it the number (1), we should guarantee that Pluto will be at the head of the Transneptunian list. Now we have Pluto numbered as 130-thousand and something. Not very easy to remember, and far behind a bunch of many fainter and smaller objects in that region of the solar system. Oh, I wish that the astronomers would have followed Marsden's sueggestion in 1998 Marsden continued: It is also very important to affirm that there is absolutely no implied 'demotion' or 'reclassification' of Pluto from its positionin the list of the 'planets' (or 'major planets' or 'principal planets'). Unfortunately, many of the articles that have appeared inthe press have accidentally (or deliberately) misinterpreted this issue. As with (2060) = 95P/Chiron, (4015) = 107P/Wilson-Harrington and (7968) = 133P/Elst-Pizarro, where the choice of 'minor planet' or 'comet' designation depends on the context, we are proposing that Pluto would have dual status as a 'major' and a 'minor' body. So much about the backdoor invite to demote Pluto. Greetings, Herbert Raab __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] There Were Once 18 Planets...
All: 10 Hygiea (cvorrect spelling, though sometimes seen as Hygeia). Nice asteroid (on the list for dwarf planet), looked at it lots of times (C-class). Larry Quoting Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED]: http://www.spaceweather.com/ SpaceWeather.com September 12, 2006 18 PLANETS: Have you ever heard of the planet Hygea? It's listed in the 1850 Annual of Scientific Discovery along with 17 other planets: [Full Text Graphic] http://www.spaceweather.com/swpod2006/13sep06/Pollock1.jpg Courtesy Joe Pollock, Appalachian State University. In those days, large asteroids such as Hygea, Ceres and Vesta were widely deemed planets. They appeared so in textbooks and scientific journals. Adding asteroids to the other known planets, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune, gave a grand total of 18. Imagine the mnemonic: My Very Educated [insert ten adjectives here] Mother Just Served Us Noodles. The asteroids were eventually demoted. It was a long, drawn-out affair, marked by decades of disagreement and confusion. (Sound familiar?) By 1900, however, order was restored to the Solar System: the planet count was down to eight. And then came Pluto... __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] There Were Once 18 Planets...
Hi Again: Left out a link. Someone some time ago was also asking about symbols. http://aa.usno.navy.mil/hilton/AsteroidHistory/minorplanets.html Larry __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto Added To Official 'Minor Planet' List
Hi All: As an asteroid scientist, I have some words for the people at the Minor Planets (oh sorry, there are no minor planets) Small Solar System Bodies Center. I do not wish to be barred from this listserv by using any of them. I personally think that it is a little premature for them to be redesignating Pluto since, in fact, Pluto is NOT a minor planet (or Small Solar System Body) by any interpretation of the resolutions that passed at the IAU. It is a dwarf planet and not a minor planet (based on the definition) and there are many in the astronomical community who are interpreting dwarf planets to be a new class of planets (like terrestrial or gas giants). These are things, thanks tho the vagueness of what passed, that one hopes will get resolved over the next few years. If nothing else, they could have made Ceres and Pluto dwarf planets 1 and 2, respectively, but this would not be consistent with the (adjective deleted) viewpoint of the people involved. It will be interesting to see what the reaction of the general community of planetary scientists will be on this one. Larry Quoting Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED]: http://www.newscientistspace.com/article/dn10028-pluto-added-to-official- minor-planet-list.html Pluto added to official minor planet list David Shiga New Scientist 07 September 2006 Pluto will henceforth be known as minor planet 134340 Pluto, according to a new designation by the International Astronomical Union's Minor Planet Center. The decision to include Pluto among the many asteroids and comets in the minor planet catalog makes official the icy body's recent - and highly controversial - demotion from planethood. Pluto's status was changed from planet to dwarf planet at a meeting of the IAU in Prague on 24 August. Many astronomers are unhappy with the new planet definition that excludes Pluto and some of them are organising a conference to come up with an alternative definition (see Astronomers plot to overturn planet definition http://www.newscientistspace.com/article/dn9890-astronomers-plot-to-overturn- planet-definition.html). But the official catalog of small bodies in the solar system is under the authority of the IAU, and it recently added Pluto to its list of minor planets. Tim Spahr, the interim director of the IAU's Minor Planet Center (MPC) in Cambridge, Massachusetts, US, says this was done for the sake of consistency. That is because the IAU decided that Ceres, an asteroid already in the minor planet catalog, is also a dwarf planet. Spahr says the IAU will soon create a new catalog of dwarf planets. Ceres is already in the minor planet catalog, so the simplest thing is to put these in the minor planet catalog and the dwarf planet catalog, he told New Scientist. 'Scientific heresy' Initially, there will be three objects in the dwarf planet catalog: Pluto, Ceres, and the distant object 2003 UB313, which is unofficially named Xena. The IAU will decide on an official name for 2003 UB313 in a month or two, he says. An IAU working group is being set up to decide whether any other objects qualify for the dwarf planet list. Other Pluto-like objects, such as 2005 FY9, will be considered for membership, Spahr says. Not everyone has been quick to adopt the new planet definition, however. On the day of the IAU decision, two members of the California state assembly introduced a resolution condemning the mean-spirited IAU for its decision on Pluto, calling it a hasty, ill-considered scientific heresy. Introduced by Keith Richman and Joseph Canciamilla, the resolution says the fact that Pluto shares its name with the dog made famous in Disney cartoons gives it a special connection to California history and culture. Downgrading Pluto's status will cause psychological harm to some Californians who question their place in the universe and worry about the instability of universal constants, it adds. On a more serious note, Alan Stern, project leader for NASA's New Horizons mission to Pluto, says the project will not recognise the new IAU definition. We will continue to refer to Pluto as the ninth planet, he says on the mission's website. I think most of you will agree with that decision and cheer us on. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites from the bottom of the ocean - Part 2 of 2
Hi Frank: There was a nice article about Angra dos Reis in the May issue of Meteorite magazine! Larry Quoting Frank Cressy [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hello Bernd and all, For those interested in meteorites found from the bottom of the sea, there is, of course, Angra dos Reis ;-) A portion of the text from Brazilian Stone Meteorites states: The meteorite fell into the bay of Angra dos Reis at a water depth of 2 m, immediately in front of the church of Bom Fim in the town of Angra dos Reis. Some smoke was noticed in the sky and the body apparently traveled from north to south. The material, recovered by a local diver a day after the fall, consisted of two small pieces; from an unmatched fresh surface it was assumed that a third piece was missing. And, although not found at the bottom of the sea, but a large lake, there is Okechobee, Florida, an L4 found in 1916. From the COM, Fragments weighing about 1kg were brought up in a net some 0.75 miles from shore, G.P. Merril (1916). Cheers, Frank __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Dr. Larry A. Lebofsky Senior Research Scientist Co-editor, Meteorite If you give a man a fish, Lunar and Planetary Laboratory you feed him for a day. 1541 East University If you teach a man to fish, University of Arizonayou feed him for a lifetime. Tucson, AZ 85721-0063 ~Chinese Proverb Phone: 520-621-6947 FAX:520-621-8364 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Preliminary MOSS meteorite classification
Hi Ed: That is almost as hard to believe as meteor showers (debris from a comet) occurring on the same day each year! Actually, probably does not have to be every year, just every few years. If these come from the breakup of a near Earth asteroid, the debris would probably spread out from the asteroid in a manner similar to a comet tail. Larry Quoting E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi all - Dammit! The only way that you would have an annual fall would be if a debris stream intersected the Earth at the same time each year. This is highly unlikely. What these people (I can't do it myself any longer) need to be looking for is regular intervals, and multiples of those intervals, between falls. Then they could establish a debris stream's orbit. If a debris stream intersection period could be established, then one could stay up on the appropriate nights, watch for bolides, triangulate, and voila, meteorites on demand so to speak. good hunting, Ed --- Bjorn Sorheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeff Grossman wrote: Yes, I noticed that too. Could just be a coincidence, however. The dates are almost 2 weeks apart. jeff But when you look at the other CO3 falls it becomes a bit obvious: Warrenton , Fall 3rd January 1877, 07:15h Felix, Fall 15th May 1900, 11:30h Kainsaz, Fall 13th September 1937, 14:15h Apparently spread out through the year quite randomly. At 02:21 PM 8/30/2006, Bjorn Sorheim wrote: Michael Farmer wrote: Hello everyone, well here is the preliminary classification data on the MOSS Norway meteorite fall. Dr Jeff Grossman is doing the classification and he sent me the following information a little while ago. . Avg Fa PMD Kainsaz (CO3.2) 11.8 70 Felix (CO3.3) 18.4 70 Ornans (CO3.4) 19.0 68 Lance (CO3.5) 21.2 63 Warrenton (CO3.7) 33.9 21 Moss 19.9 65 This puts Moss between Ornans and Lance, Yes, you are so right Dr Grossman! Just look here: Ornans , Fall 11th July, 19:15h 1868 Moss, Fall 14th July, 10:15h 2006 Lance, Fall 23rd July, 17:20h 1872 From The Catalogue (2000). Makes you think, don't it! Seems to be a connection here. Any info on the trajectory at those falls? although I don't think that difference is significant. Regards, Bjørn Sørheim http://home.online.no/~bsoerhei/astro/meteor/060714/moss.html Fresh 'Moss' __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Dr. Larry A. Lebofsky Senior Research Scientist Co-editor, Meteorite If you give a man a fish, Lunar and Planetary Laboratory you feed him for a day. 1541 East University If you teach a man to fish, University of Arizonayou feed him for a lifetime. Tucson, AZ 85721-0063 ~Chinese Proverb Phone: 520-621-6947 FAX:520-621-8364 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
RE: [meteorite-list] Artist conception of view from Pluto (life-size d)
Steve: Pluto's thin atmosphere is nitrogen, carbon monoxide, and methane and it has a haze layer, too. This atmosphere is getting a little thicker now even though Pluto is moving away from the Sun, but it is thought that the atmosphere will eventually freeze out for the winter as Pluto get further away from the Sun and colder. Why is the atmosphere getting thicker? Good question: If you look at tempertures on the Earth, it is usually warmer in the early afternoon than it is at noon (thermal inertia). Also, Pluto, as seen from the Earth and Sun is actually getting darker (we may be seeing darker areas of the surface). Thus more solar energy is getting absorbed. Oh, dispite the picture of Pluto, it has one spherical satellite, Charon, and two very small satellites of, to the best of my knowledge, unknown shape. Nice pictur, though! Larry Quoting Steve Schoner [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Looks like a planet to me, with two spherical moons. And I read somewhere that Pluto (a planet) may actually have a thin atmosphere of hydrogen. We shall in nine years (if all goes well with the Pluto space mission) see how well this representation holds up to fact. And maybe by then the fact that Pluto is a planet will be resolved. (Leave it at 9 and anything farther out not) Steve Schoner [meteorite-list] Artist conception of view from Pluto (life-sized) Darren Garrison Sat, 26 Aug 2006 22:58:49 -0700 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e7/Plutonian_system.jpg __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Astronomers Lean Toward Eight Planets
Hi Sterling: I am so far behind in reading emails that I am now reading the most recent and going backwards. Hence my response to your email from Wednesday. First, with only about 425 scientists voting on the porposal Thursday, there is now a petition for the planetary (and astronomy?) community in support of somthing closer to the original proposal (properties of the object, not where it is located). A more general one may follow (I will let you all know). I agree with you (almost) completely. Except with the composition of Ceres. With a density of just over 2.0, there is a lot of water in Ceres. It is assumed to be all below the surface (as water ice is not stable on its surface), but it is a good match to CI and CM meteorites and so has a good deal of water in it. So, it is most likely a very wet rock. From the HST images, which show white spots, it may even have some water ice on its surface. I would be thrilled with that since I predicted ice on Ceres and then showed that it could not have any since it is too warm. More recent work has show that my observational analysis may not have been too far off (Dawn will give us the answer). Larry Quoting Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, Doug and All, 1. Since it seems only right to declare your personal biases first, I am a 12+ proponent and a firm believer (on the basis of faith and a few numerical approximations) that an object beyond Pluto and bigger than the planet Mercury exists and will be discovered. (Then, the Clasical Eight become the Big Seven and Mercury is a solar asteroid!) 2. I firmly agree with Ron Baalke (who's a Pro-Eight) that the cultural component of this dispute is a major, maybe THE major, consideration. This a great opportunity to make science look silly to the populace, something we really don't need right now. Once formed, public perception is hard to change. What we have to decide is what makes science look sillier, or less silly. 3. While I may have made snide remarks about the IAU as preferring to dally and postpone, this may well be a time when that is the best idea. Declare a cooling off period; send it to another committee. The whole vote issue popped up too quickly, and it may well be that there just hasn't been time (or calm) enough for everybody to think it through. 4. While you are undoubtedly correct, Doug, about Latinate terms being appropriate, the Latinate term for cold has unfortunate associations in American-English slang, where frig is used as a not-too-polite euphemism for an old Anglo-Saxon verb with a similar sound. It would be the source of as much (more) classroom giggling as the pronunciation of Uranus. But cryo- and cryonic have widespread usage, popularly and scientifically (for that very reason, I suspect). 5. Even the guy who declared his love of Pluto in the New York Times (Susan's post) says of Pluto: It's mostly ice. Everybody calls the Plutonians ICEBALLS when this is obviously and unequivocally WRONG. People on this List do it all the time; scientists who don't like Pluonians as planets do it (and they should know better). The density of Pluto is 2.08. Ice has a density of 0.92. Because water-ice is compressible and then converts to a number of polymorphic crystalline structures of higher density, depending on the size of the body. (IceIII is the most likely, with a density of 1.14.) But the pressures required are very great. http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/phase.html But basically, a body with a density of 2.08 (Pluto) is best explained as containing 70% to 75% rock of density 2.7 and a mantle of mixed ices that is only the outer 10% to 13% of the planetary radius deep. (A shallow ice mantle limits the density of the ice.) That's a mantle if it's differentiated, but if it's just mixed, the compositional averages are the same. The density of Ceres (2.03) is the same as Pluto. Lots of the Plutonians have similar densities. 2003EL61's shape sets a density range limited to 2.6 to 3.3 (like the Earth's Moon, a well-known rockball). It's 100% rockball -- no ice at all (except for the surface dusting). Pluto's a rockball. Ceres is a rockball. Can you say ROCKBALL, boys and girls? If a body is 70%+ rock, why keep calling it an iceball? Wassup with that? Because it's cold? Calling Pluto an iceball is like calling the Earth a dirtball. I look at Earth's surface and it's mostly dirt, so the planet Earth is mostly made of dirt, right? Please, enough with the iceball! Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Sterling_K_Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 11:47 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Astronomers Lean Toward Eight Planets Hello Sterling, why not throw Pluto a bone
Re: [meteorite-list] John Hopkins Astronomers ReacttoPluto'sPlanetary 'Demotion'
Size challenged. Pluto envy or planet envy Larry Quoting Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Too Small To be Counted Mark - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'MexicoDoug' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 3:15 PM Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] John Hopkins Astronomers ReacttoPluto'sPlanetary 'Demotion' Bah the solar system is in ruin! dwarf planet is incommensurate with the use of words in publication in countries, which obey Political Correctness. I'm not a native speaker, so help me to find the right term. orbitally challenged planet? massively challenged planet? populatedly challenged planet? bureaucratically challenged planet? Buckleboo! Martin http://www.dwarfism.org/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Dr. Larry A. Lebofsky Senior Research Scientist Co-editor, Meteorite If you give a man a fish, Lunar and Planetary Laboratory you feed him for a day. 1541 East University If you teach a man to fish, University of Arizonayou feed him for a lifetime. Tucson, AZ 85721-0063 ~Chinese Proverb Phone: 520-621-6947 FAX:520-621-8364 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Size Counts concerning Pluto?
Hi all: I have been trying to stay out of the recent discussion until something really happens at the IAU. For me, I am concerned with it becoming too personal. However, two things. When we (DPS) spoke to Rick Binzel last week, the IAU committee (Rick was on it) was concerned that world opinion would be that the US (ie Lowell Obs) would want to keep Pluto as a plane because is was discovered by an American. Also, if you look at the original counterproposal (being the dominant object) which will get rid of Pluto as a planet, it was proposed by a group that included 2 from Uruguay, 5 from France, 2 Brazil, 3 Italy, 1 Chech., 1 Argentina, 1 Mexico, 1 Russia, and 2 US. Not quite American dominated unless you mean (North and SOuth America). Larry PS OPINION: No matter what ends up being the science behind defining a planet (original definition gives us 5 since Earth was not a planet), Pluto, for historical reasons, should remain a planet. OPINION: dwarf planet is a stupid term and raises all sorts of misconceptions for kids, etc. Why not go with size-challenged to be politically correct? Quoting drtanuki [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hello List, It appears that the only reason for dropping poor Pluto from the list of planets is an American cultural bias in that SIZE COUNTS. Pluto, as do the rest of the planets, orbits the Sun in a somewhat regular manner as a planet; therefore leave its classification alone. Science may change the status of Pluto; but Pluto will still exist as it has without any concern of Man`s (new-school-biased? Astronomer`s) scheme of things. Sincerely, Pluto fan for 9.Dirk Ross...Tokyo __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Dr. Larry A. Lebofsky Senior Research Scientist Co-editor, Meteorite If you give a man a fish, Lunar and Planetary Laboratory you feed him for a day. 1541 East University If you teach a man to fish, University of Arizonayou feed him for a lifetime. Tucson, AZ 85721-0063 ~Chinese Proverb Phone: 520-621-6947 FAX:520-621-8364 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Astronomers Lean Toward Eight Planets
Hi Anne: Please remember that many scientists [not me :0)] have something to make up for their common sense ... their big EGOS. If you have any doubt about this, ask Nancy. It is the old my theory is better (bigger) than your theory. There are lots of ways to define a planet (we have seen many of them over the past few days) and some are better than others and none of them is perfect. But, you must remember, from the perspective of many scientists, there is no question that their theory is better than anyone elses. Larry __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Comet shower
Hi all: I seem to get into trouble no matter what I say. Yes, I keep promising myself to buy the book. My response to Darren responded to the article he referred to which talked about comet showers lasting thousands of years or more. I assumed that they were referring to the long-held theory of a planet X or a passing star as the cause of showers of comets, hence, comet shower (and periodic mass distructions). I do not think that they were referring to the pieces of a single comet that had broken up and hit the Earth. I think that this is a fairly recent idea and which at least from an observational point of view is supported by SW3 (the breaking up part). I was unaware of any papers or books that discuss anything like Cheimgau. I will take your word for this and will get a copy of your book. I do not think John Lewis mentions it in his book, but I could be wrong. It is some time since I have read it. Quoting E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi Larry, list - Ahem. Hourse manure, as Bess Truman taught Harry to say. Under the strains of traversing the plane of our solar system, a comet can fragment into fragemnts, as they are technically known, or cometissimals, to put it more properly. Comet Schwassmann Wachmann 3 did this quite recently, only a few months back, and Comet Encke did it not so long ago, a few millenia back. These cometissimals have ranged in size up from around 50 m or so up to the size of full comets, for cometissimals from well condensed old large comets. These cometissimals have impacted the Earth in mass, and in historic times, as at Cheimgau, for one example. They usually accompany meteor streams. While this fragmentation process is not discussed in depth in my book, Man and Impact in the Americas, available through amazon.com., you should buy yourself a copy of it anyway. good hunting, EP --- Larry Lebofsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Darren: This one I think I can answer and not get into trouble with anyone in the astronomy field. Meteor shower: Usually related to a comet (or sometimes asteroid; extinct comet??) or sometimes not (comet long gone). Comets have tails. This material is small (look at Stardust) and spreads out along the orbit of the comet. Since this is long (all the way around the orbit) and fairly broad, we pass through it each year (sometimes we go through thicker regions and get meteor storms). This is a meteor shower and these are named after the region of the sky where we see the majority come form. There is no documented fall from a meteor shower (stuff too small, so fragile?). Comet shower: Humans probably have never witnessed one. This is one of the theories for mass extinctions on Earth. A thing (passing star or planet X) plows through (or comes close) to the Oort cloud. Lots of objects are perturbed out of their orbits and some now have new orbits that bring them in close to the Sun (and the Earth). Since there are lots of them and have different orbits, they come through the inner Solar System over long periods of time. If the thing that does the perturbing is also in orbit around the Sun, the perturbing can happen periodically (periodicity of extinctions). While we see showers regularly and can associate them with certain comets and at soom level predict when there will be more or less (a little better than reading tea leaves), this is a real thing. Not so for comet showers. No evidence for Planet X, far different than the on-going discussion. No evidence for extinctions being periodic or over a period of time (many people still claim there is a periodicity, but them more people will disclaim it). Still not solid proof and no bit object ever seen (though who know for sure). I hope this answers your question, Darren. The only controversy is whether or not comet showers have ever happened and if so, what caused them. So far there is little evidence for there ever having been one (after the Late Heavy Bombardment 4 billion years ago). LArry Quoting Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Okay, this explanation of meteor shower vs. comet shower surpasses the new definition of planet to win Weird Science Defintion of the Week. Is it just me, or would a better answer have been to explain how meteor showers ARE produced by the debris of comets (which is where the question seemed to be leading) and not to interpret the question as being do lots of comets hit the Earth at once? http://www.earthsky.org/shows/listenerquestions.php?date=20040417 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite
Re: Re-2: [meteorite-list] Moss Meteorite From A Comet?
Hi all: Defending Tim Swindle and Humberto Campins. I have known them for years and they are very conservative scientists. Their work is good and they are well- respected scientists. They do not go off (too often) to make wild, unsubstantiated, claims., hence, the conclusions in their article. They based their Meteorite paper (and their original scientific paper) on what we know. We have observations of many comets (Campins has done a lot of this), but we have samples from only one comet (Halley), are just now studying Stardust material (so too early to say much), and IDPs which are thought to be, at least in part, cometary in origin. Clearly, we need multiple samples from multiple comets --- good luck in our lifetime. Therefore you base your theories on the existing information, not onwhat you hope to have in the future. That is why people propose new missions to comets and asteroids! We know that not all comets are the same based on our observations and where we think they came from. Some of this may be because of how many times they have been close to the Sun, some may have to be related to where they came from (Kuiper Belt or Oort cloud), and some may have to do with where they were formed (which may not have been where we see them coming from). Clearly, a chunk of a fresh comet would look very different from a dead comet. Or, as been on this listserv recently, could we tell the difference between a chunk of a comet or a piece of Ceres? I am not sure I would be willing to say anything in print even though I have studied Ceres for years. What, from either, would we expect to make it through the atmosphere? Even if we were to bring back samples from two or three comets, I doubt if anyone I know would be willing to say (with respect to the composition of comets) that that was their final answer. That is the nature of science. I really have to stop writing these a 5:00 in the morning, no breakfast and no soffee, but this is the quiet time of the day. Larry Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Comets ... being 'primitive material' ... we would need to have known multiple samples of multiple comets before we could say for sure. Hi Mark and List, I couldn't agree more and that's why I felt a bit uneasy when I read Campins' and Swindle's article in this issue of our METEORITE magazine: CAMPINS H. and SWINDLE T.D.(2006) Where are the cometary meteorites? (Meteorite, May 2006, Vol. 12, No.2, pp. 17-19). They solely refer repeatedly to Comet Halley and to Halley dust (plus to cometary IDPs). Many more comets need to be sampled before we can draw definite conclusions! Best, Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Planet Meteorite Mailing List
Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Dr. Larry A. Lebofsky Senior Research Scientist Co-editor, Meteorite If you give a man a fish, Lunar and Planetary Laboratory you feed him for a day. 1541 East University If you teach a man to fish, University of Arizonayou feed him for a lifetime. Tucson, AZ 85721-0063 ~Chinese Proverb Phone: 520-621-6947 FAX:520-621-8364 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Moss Meteorite From A Comet?
Hi Jeff: Read the May issue of Mereorite magazine. An article by Swindle and Campins. Larry Quoting Jeff Kuyken [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Howdy Bernd, Rick all, Just curious because I recently read somewhere (maybe this list actually but can't remember) that the CH (or CB?) chondrites may now be the best match to a cometary origin. I think this was after Deep Impact. Anyone remember or know more? Cheers, Jeff - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 6:46 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Moss Meteorite From A Comet? Hello Rick and List, As you are new on this List, I don't really know who I am talking to, how old or how young you are, how much you know about meteorites and comets, if you already have any meteorites, whether you have already read any books about meteorites, etc., etc. Maybe you would like to introduce yourself to us and tell us a little bit about you. Thank you in advance! Your question is interesting and intriguing. Theoretically, some meteorites may have a cometary origin but so far they have not been found or recognized yet. If there are cometary meteorites in our collections, scientists expect them to have come from the so-called Kuiper belt beyond 30 AU. Their silicates should be anhydrous, highly unequilibrated, their chemistry would resemble that of chondrites but there would be a high amount of C and N. But if these cometary meteorites were altered through the influence of flowing water so far out in our Solar System, the most likely candidates here on Earth would be the CI carbonaceous chondrites. Some xenolithic inclusions in ordinary chondrite regolith breccias are also suspects for a cometary origin. You will probably have seen a Perseid fireball but no matter what you saw, some scientists say that many shower meteors can be as dense as carbonaceous chondrites or even as dense as ordinary chondrites. Especially interesting is the fall of the CI chondrite Revelstoke because it could be an example of a weak cometary meteorite. A fireball was observed for hundreds of kilometers and atmospheric effects were measured nearly 1500 km away. The fireball must have been as energetic as the Sikhote-Alin meteorite. The SA fireball produced several craters and tons of meteoritic irons but all that was found of the Revelstoke fireball was less than a gram of friable black rock. If there are cometary meteorites in our collections, here are some of the criteria they should meet: a) as rare as CI carbonaceous chondrites b) dark + weak c) highly porous + low density (ca. 2 g/cm3) d) nearly solar abundances e) high abundance of C, N, and organic compounds f) anhydrous silicates g) highly unequilibrated silicates h) very large abundance of interstellar grains i) chondrules and CAIs should be rare or absent It is so difficult to identify cometary meteorites in case they already exist in our collections because they could easily be misclassified as achondrites. There are indeed achondrites like the acapulcoites, lodranites, brachinites, winonaites that have chondritic chemical abundances, and there are C-rich achondrites, for example the ureilites. And now back to your question: Is the Moss meteorite from a comet? Let's *suppose* some cometary meteorites do contain chondrules, then C-rich, highly unequilibrated CO, CV, or ordinary chondrites might be good candidates according to: CAMPINS H. and SWINDLE T. (1998) Expected characteristics of cometary meteorites (MAPS 33-6, 1998, pp. 1201-1211). In other words, in that case even the Moss meteorite - if it should really be classified as a CO.x (preferentially x should be 1, 2, or 3) - could be of cometary parentage. Hope this helps ;-) Best regards, Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Comet shower
Hi Darren: This one I think I can answer and not get into trouble with anyone in the astronomy field. Meteor shower: Usually related to a comet (or sometimes asteroid; extinct comet??) or sometimes not (comet long gone). Comets have tails. This material is small (look at Stardust) and spreads out along the orbit of the comet. Since this is long (all the way around the orbit) and fairly broad, we pass through it each year (sometimes we go through thicker regions and get meteor storms). This is a meteor shower and these are named after the region of the sky where we see the majority come form. There is no documented fall from a meteor shower (stuff too small, so fragile?). Comet shower: Humans probably have never witnessed one. This is one of the theories for mass extinctions on Earth. A thing (passing star or planet X) plows through (or comes close) to the Oort cloud. Lots of objects are perturbed out of their orbits and some now have new orbits that bring them in close to the Sun (and the Earth). Since there are lots of them and have different orbits, they come through the inner Solar System over long periods of time. If the thing that does the perturbing is also in orbit around the Sun, the perturbing can happen periodically (periodicity of extinctions). While we see showers regularly and can associate them with certain comets and at soom level predict when there will be more or less (a little better than reading tea leaves), this is a real thing. Not so for comet showers. No evidence for Planet X, far different than the on-going discussion. No evidence for extinctions being periodic or over a period of time (many people still claim there is a periodicity, but them more people will disclaim it). Still not solid proof and no bit object ever seen (though who know for sure). I hope this answers your question, Darren. The only controversy is whether or not comet showers have ever happened and if so, what caused them. So far there is little evidence for there ever having been one (after the Late Heavy Bombardment 4 billion years ago). LArry Quoting Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Okay, this explanation of meteor shower vs. comet shower surpasses the new definition of planet to win Weird Science Defintion of the Week. Is it just me, or would a better answer have been to explain how meteor showers ARE produced by the debris of comets (which is where the question seemed to be leading) and not to interpret the question as being do lots of comets hit the Earth at once? http://www.earthsky.org/shows/listenerquestions.php?date=20040417 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] EVEN THE N. Y. TIMES HAS AN OPINION ON PLANETS
Sterling: Well, much of the controversy started when that planetarium in New York found that it could not fit Pluto into its display because it was too far from the Sun to fit in the exhibit hall. There were a number of articles about this at the time. Beign a scientist I did a scientific poll (sort of, but at least the question was not biased one way or the other): I polled the Saturday group of people in my cardiac rehab class, so the only thing in common is have had heart problems at one time, nearer to God (mostly retired, educations from not finishing high school to people with multiple degrees (no astronomers) out of 14 people (not including myself) all 14 thought it would be stupid to demote Pluto even if it did not fit into the definition. Also, most of them were aware that the planet was not named after the dog. Several of them were around at the time. And Sterling, before you start on me, no, I do not know the statistical error on the vote! Quoting Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, The New York published an editorial on the planet question. Does that settle it? Hardly. But it does demonstrate that the driving force of the Eight Planet Gang is largely emotional and prejudicial. Sterling K. Webb -- http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/17/opinion/17thur4.html Text: Dissing Pluto and the Other Plutons Published: August 17, 2006 A panel appointed by the International Astronomical Union thinks it has come up with a dandy compromise to the years-long struggle over whether we should continue to count Pluto as a planet. The trouble is, the new definition of a planet will include an awful mélange of icy rocks found on the outer fringes of the solar system. It would be far better to expel Pluto from the planetary ranks altogether, leaving us to bask in the comfortable presence of the eight classical planets that were discovered before 1900 and have excited wonder ever since. Pluto, discovered in 1930, never deserved to be called a planet. It is far smaller than first thought, smaller in fact than our own moon. Its orbit is more elliptical and tilted in a different plane than those of the other planets, and its icy, rocky body is more like a comet's core. If Pluto were discovered today, it seems highly unlikely that anyone would consider it a planet. But Pluto has emotional partisans who resent anyone picking on the puniest planet, so efforts to demote it invariably meet resistance. Now a panel of astronomers and historians has come up with a new definition of the word planet that will keep Pluto in the club. Under the new definition, a planet would be any celestial body that orbits around a star and is large enough for its own gravity to pull it into a spherical shape. That definition would produce an ugly porridge of 12 old and new planets, with dozens more on the way. Ceres, heretofore considered the largest of the asteroids, would qualify. The panel suggests that people might want to call it a dwarf planet, raising the question of why bother to call it a planet at all. Pluto would still count as a planet but would be shunted into a new category called Plutons, which would include any object that meets the definition and has an orbit beyond Neptune's. Two other bodies already qualify as plutons, namely Charon, which had been considered a moon of Pluto, and a recently discovered ice ball somewhat bigger than Pluto. Many dozens of distant ice balls may ultimately qualify for planethood. All this just to keep Pluto as a planet. Whatever merit the new definition may have scientifically, it is an abomination culturally. When the astronomical union votes on the matter next week, it ought to reject the new definition and summon the courage to scratch Pluto from the list of planets. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: Re: [meteorite-list] NEW PLANETARY NAMES
Hi all: This is why there is an IAU nomenclature committee. It prevents chaos when naming asteroids, comets, satellites, and now planets, I guess. Larry, asteroid 3439 Lebofsky Quoting Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 22:59:55 -0400, you wrote: Oh... Why name the planets after a god/godess? What's wrong with Bernhard, Mary, Ann, Richard, Mike, etc. etc. Tradition, I suppose. But if they name too many objects, they may have to start looking for other sources. Like maybe naming them from characters in popular Science Fiction franchises. So how about planets Aunt Beru, Captain Janeway, and Hot Blonde Cylon Chick? __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto May Get Demoted After All
Hi Doug: I am not an expert on dynamics, but the center of mass is the center of mass. If you have two objects in orbit (revolve, not rotate) around the center of mass, if one were larger, its orbit would have to be elliptical in order for the center of mass to go outside to inside of it. We are not talking about multiple systems with liquid planets, that is going a little too far. One body cannot go into and out of another. I do not understand your first P.D. That is a slap in the face of the people on the committee as well as the organizations that recommended and picked them. Are you more qualified to have chosen the committee? To answer your P.D.D., it would help to actually check your facts. The name of the planet predates the dog by nearly a year. The kid is still alive and was interviewed earlier this year, why not ask her? Larry Quoting MexicoDoug [EMAIL PROTECTED]: and the Charon aspect specifically for going too far in essentially recasting too many small round objects as full-fledged planets. Eventually, with new discoveries, there would likely be hundreds. Hello Again, The Charon and the rotating around center of mass outside the larger body (Pluto in this case) criterion aspect is very unwieldy for me. If a soccer ball, or other object which could have melted and rounded itself (or even rubble-pile modeled asteroids) gets into a meta stable orbit around the center of mass of the multi-body system in the appropriate conditions, it will become a planet for the moments it rotates outside the other members crust. And more interestingly, if the orbit is of high enough eccentricity, the center of mass will vary inside and outside the major body. I guess the simple solution would be to refine the definition for convenience to say that all bodies are compared as if they orbited the major body of the system at X distance, etc. But this innocent corollary is a needless complication and goes against the grain of the intention: to make it a fairly independent set of criteria based on a priori physics. There is based on physics and making reference to physics. Anyone can make reference to physics - the IAU committees still hasn't understood that though they've come a good way along. Ganymede and our Luna moons are excluded based on what boils down to an arbitrary criterion. Time to cut to the Gordian chase and toss out this criterion. Anything else will smack of arbitrariness. How scientific can an issue be when you have near 50%-50% acceptance/rejection after so many years of debate? I won't get going on dwarf status. With stars it has real meaning. However, it is arbitrary in its proposed use with the planets and again a cheap shot to put pseudoscience masquerading as real science (unethically) by experts in something who seems to feel that their diplomas make them experts in applying well defined astronomical terms to an amorphous limbo. If you want to call it a dwarf planet - a double planet - any icy planet - a terrestrial planet - that's fine and highly context dependent. Thus the adjective of choice is in the domain of the speaker, not in the quaint streets of Prague in meetings as astronomers eat up the travel and entertainment bill. Best wishes, Doug P.D. The IAU Committee has utterly failed by not including a committee member of the class and stature of Saul Kripke. Historians and Astronomers...but how about including someone with real experience and credentials in aprioricity who has danced with the likes of Kant (and usually held his own). I trust they will remedy this, as good scientists not concerned about who shares their turf... P.P.D. Pluto was actually named after the Disney Dog character by a British child, but was endorsed by astronomers under the auspices we generally consider when explaining the logic of planetary nomenclature. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Dr. Larry A. Lebofsky Senior Research Scientist Co-editor, Meteorite If you give a man a fish, Lunar and Planetary Laboratory you feed him for a day. 1541 East University If you teach a man to fish, University of Arizonayou feed him for a lifetime. Tucson, AZ 85721-0063 ~Chinese Proverb Phone: 520-621-6947 FAX:520-621-8364 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Solar System in Perspective
I think EL 61 rotates fairly rapidly and it is thought that this shape was frozen in when it was formed. This is where the actual defining of a planet gets a little fuzzy and where I start having problems with, if not the definition, how do you determine what is and what is not a planet. The definition is not perfect, but this and how it is implemented are things that can be worked out. Larry Quoting Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:36:14 -0400, you wrote: Apologies, if this link was posted previously. Some nice, high resolution graphics and a video fly-by, relative to the on-going debate/discussion... http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/iau0601_release.html Thanks for supplying these. I've seen thumbnail sized copies of them included in news stories before and did a little digging looking for the full images, but wasn't successful. This image kind of confuses me, though: http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/screen/iau0601c.jpg It shows 2003 EL61 as highly distorted in shape, but shows it as a planet candidate, but by their own proposal it wouldn't be concidered a planet if it had that non-hydrostatic equilibrium shape. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Dr. Larry A. Lebofsky Senior Research Scientist Co-editor, Meteorite If you give a man a fish, Lunar and Planetary Laboratory you feed him for a day. 1541 East University If you teach a man to fish, University of Arizonayou feed him for a lifetime. Tucson, AZ 85721-0063 ~Chinese Proverb Phone: 520-621-6947 FAX:520-621-8364 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto May Get Demoted After All
As long as Rob Britt quotes me correctly and not out of context, I am happy to be worked by him. By the way, there are a good number of real astronomers who are making very strong comments about this resolution. I am not sure that I have ever seen so many egos coming out (I trust me and thee and I am not sure about thee). Almost everything that is being proposed has been said before, but now that there is a vote in the works, it is all coming to a head (my idea is better than yours). Larry __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto May Get Demoted After All
Hi Doug: I never thought that I would admit to agreeing completely with Sterling (just kidding), but I am. I have googled Kripke's credentials and I do not see how he would add anything to the committee. As I said before and I will say again, a lot of thought went into the formation of this committee from both the astronomical and astronomy history community. These are people who know the issues, who know the science (the words and concepts are far from arbitrary), and who, in general, did not come in with an agenda which was a problem with the first committee. This is not a linguistic issue, it is a science issue as to how one draws the line between planets and (whatever you want to call something smaller than a planet). It has implications with respect to the origin and evolution of our Solar System and other stellar systems. Larry Quoting MexicoDoug [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi Sterling, you really don't have to disagree with me because you have edited an old message of mine to the point of completely changing its meaning - with a new meaning I disagree with as well.. Here's what I said: The IAU Committee has utterly failed by not including a committee member of the class and stature of Saul Kripke. Historians and Astronomers...but how about including someone with real experience and credentials in aprioricity who has danced with the likes of Kant (and usually held his own). I trust they will remedy this, as good scientists not concerned about who shares their turf... Here's what you say I said: Mexico Doug said: The IAU Committee has utterly failed by not including... Historians... but how about including someone with real experience and credentials I have no doubt that Owen Gingerich isn't the great historian you researched him to be and don't wish you to cut and paste my words erroneously to think I would have a different conclusion. However, you have edited my post to appear that I don't recognize the quality of the historians on the Committee. Read it. I am recognizing the committee has good astronomers and historians!!! A more valid question is why is this committee needed, not taking for granted that it is a needed committee. And if you Google Saul Kripke you will find his forte isn't really history at all, but rather he is the closest living example we have today of a Nobel laureate Philosopher-linguist whose specialty is this tyope of issue, and when words and concepts are arbitrary and when they are a priori - and when change is in order and when not, I would hastily suppose as well. Best wishes, Doug __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Dr. Larry A. Lebofsky Senior Research Scientist Co-editor, Meteorite If you give a man a fish, Lunar and Planetary Laboratory you feed him for a day. 1541 East University If you teach a man to fish, University of Arizonayou feed him for a lifetime. Tucson, AZ 85721-0063 ~Chinese Proverb Phone: 520-621-6947 FAX:520-621-8364 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] 'Plutons' Push Planet Total Up To 12-- Mike Brown's view
Hi again Darren: Mike Brown makes some interesting and valid points. Others have too. No system is going to be perfect. We are dealing with Mother Nature and she has her own rules. However, I am confused by some of what he says. He says that he had nothing to do with the writing of the resolution and disagrees with the committee's report. Yet, his name is on the list of committee members. Did he not vote on this (I was told the decision was unanimous)? Did he just get voted down and is now going off to give his own personal view (happens all the time and is acceptable)? Brown has always been a rebel. He is the only asteroid/comet discoverer (and there are hundreds) who has named his own asteroids without going through official channels. And before you say good for him, think what this would do if even two or three major meteorite hunters were to come up with their own naming/classification system without going through METSOC. My biggest concern, personally (my favorite asteroid and the one that I studied for decades is now a planet!) is how one is going to determine whether of not something is or is not a planet based on the information available. One needs to know its diameter, its mass (and density), and its shape. That will not be easy for the KBOs. Will large KBOs remain in limbo (namewise) until we get images and more information on them? Unless it is buried in the resolution, what about rubble piles? It is easier to make a rubble pile round than a solid body. I feel very uncomfortable with rubble pile planets. One therefore needs good mass estimates in order to get good density estimates: good luck. As many of you have said, this, in part, is a science vs. public (education) issue. People do not like change. Students have enough trouble with 9 planets, let along 12 or 24 (the official added list) vs 53 (Mike Brown's list). With stars, there are so many and most people do not worry about how they are classified. With planets there are only 9 (at the moment) and we all (most or at least some) can name all of them. Add a few more and it will get confusing even for me (good at ten but then have to take my shoes off to get up to 20). From a scientific perspective, there HAS to be a scientific definition of planet (no you cannot create a new word) so that, in the future, one can deal with bigger KBOs, Oort cloud objects and planets around other stars. Unfortunately, this is not something that the public can ignor (like a new class of stars) and, again, as many of you say, the committee cannot ignor when it comes to a final vote. Speaking to one member of the commmittee for some time the other day and knowing some of the others on the committee, I would think that they were well aware of this problem and that when the details are worked out, things will become clearer. I personally commend this committee in its ability to come up with something that all could agree on. This is fra better than what happened in the previous committee or what has happened when people just ignor the system and do their own thing (name a new object or demote a planet). Larry __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Re: THE PLANETARY VOTE
around other stars than anyone, called the definition arbitrary. Pluto, its moon, and large asteroids cannot suddenly be deemed planets, Marcy said in an email interview. How would we explain to students that one large asteroid is a planet but the next biggest one isn't? Astronomers made a mistake when they deemed Pluto a planet in the 1930's, Marcy and many other astronomers say. Scientists should show that they can admit mistakes and rectify them, he said. 'Just might work' However, one mild endorsement came today from Brian Marsden, who heads the Minor Planet Center where asteroids, comets and other newfound solar system objects are catalogued. Marsden was on an IAU committee of planetary scientists that tried for a year but failed to come up with a definition for the word planet, which was never needed until recent discoveries of Pluto-sized worlds out beyond Neptune. The newly proposed definition was crafted by a second IAU committee of seven astronomers and historians. Marsden is a firm believer that there are eight planets, but the new proposal has him sounding more flexible than in the past. In an email message from Prague, Marsden said the new definition is intended to satisfy the eight-planet traditionalists (such as myself) and the 'plutocrats.' He added that he's not against the idea of using roundness as a determining factor. The IAU proposal will be voted on by IAU members Aug. 24. It all just might work, Marsden said. -- Dr. Larry A. Lebofsky Senior Research Scientist Co-editor, Meteorite If you give a man a fish, Lunar and Planetary Laboratory you feed him for a day. 1541 East University If you teach a man to fish, University of Arizonayou feed him for a lifetime. Tucson, AZ 85721-0063 ~Chinese Proverb Phone: 520-621-6947 FAX:520-621-8364 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NOT PLANETS, PLANEMOS
I continue to break my promises. The original committee that could not come up with a definition for planet did state (I assume from some ohter IAU group working on the other end with large planets) that there are no free-floating planets. Below deuterium burning (brown dwarf) you are a sub-brown dwarf (not making this up). Larry Quoting Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, Extra-solar astronomers have planet problems of their own: is a star that's not a star a planet? Or is a planet that's not a star a star? Or, nobody loves a fat jupiterian... http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/060605_planemos.html You couldn't find a better word than Plan E Moes? Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Dr. Larry A. Lebofsky Senior Research Scientist Co-editor, Meteorite If you give a man a fish, Lunar and Planetary Laboratory you feed him for a day. 1541 East University If you teach a man to fish, University of Arizonayou feed him for a lifetime. Tucson, AZ 85721-0063 ~Chinese Proverb Phone: 520-621-6947 FAX:520-621-8364 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] 'Plutons' Push Planet Total Up To 12
) next Thursday, 24 August. If passed, the days of simply learning the names of the nine planets will be over for the world's schoolchildren. In future, many more planets could join the Sun's family as other plutons are discovered. A dozen candidate planets are already on the IAUs watchlist. They include Varuna, Quaor and Sedna, all Pluto-like objects residing within a region on the fringe of the Solar System known as the Kuiper Belt. Plutons differ from classical planets in that they have orbits round the Sun that take longer than 200 years to complete, and their orbits are highly-tilted and non-circular. All these characteristics suggest that they have an origin different from that of classical planets. The IAU has taken two years working out the differences between planets and smaller Solar System bodies such as comets and asteroids. IAU president Professor Ron Ekers said: Modern science provides much more knowledge than the simple fact that objects orbiting the Sun appear to move with respect to the background of fixed stars. For example, recent new discoveries have been made of objects in the outer regions of our Solar System that have sizes comparable to and larger than Pluto. These discoveries have rightfully called into question whether or not they should be considered as new 'planets'. According to the new draft definition, two conditions must be satisfied for an object to be called a planet. First, the object must be in orbit around a star, while not itself being a star. Second, and most importantly, it must be massive enough for its own gravity to pull it into a nearly spherical shape. The IAU, responsible for the naming of planets and moons since 1919, set up a Planet Definition Committee (PDC) to consider the problem. Committee member Professor Richard Binzel said: Our goal was to find a scientific basis for a new definition of planet, and we chose gravity as the determining factor. Nature decides whether or not an object is a planet. Mnemonic needed IF ASTRONOMERS decide to change the number of planets in our solar system then piles of science textbooks will have to be rewritten. Generations of children have learned the names of the planets using mnemonics, listing the celestial bodies in their order from the Sun. My Very Eager Mother Just Sent Us Nine Pies is one popular aide memoir, helping students to remember Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. Other useful phrases include Make Very Easy Mash - Just Squash Up New Potatoes and My Very Easy Method Just Showed Us Nine Planets. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Dr. Larry A. Lebofsky Senior Research Scientist Co-editor, Meteorite If you give a man a fish, Lunar and Planetary Laboratory you feed him for a day. 1541 East University If you teach a man to fish, University of Arizonayou feed him for a lifetime. Tucson, AZ 85721-0063 ~Chinese Proverb Phone: 520-621-6947 FAX:520-621-8364 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] 'Plutons' Push Planet Total Up To 12
Planet Total Up To 12 On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 23:04:18 -0500, you wrote: Spoze he meant CHIRON? Naming a drug company as a planet would be even more of a problem. What would be next, planet Eily Lilly? On a more serious note, the article mentions Ceres. I'm not clear on this, were they saying that Ceres would be given planet status? Surely it wouldn't be lumped in as a cruton... I mean Pluton? __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Dr. Larry A. Lebofsky Senior Research Scientist Co-editor, Meteorite If you give a man a fish, Lunar and Planetary Laboratory you feed him for a day. 1541 East University If you teach a man to fish, University of Arizonayou feed him for a lifetime. Tucson, AZ 85721-0063 ~Chinese Proverb Phone: 520-621-6947 FAX:520-621-8364 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] 'Plutons' Push Planet Total Up To 12
Hi Daren: I am reading these backwards, so have waded through Sterling's comments. Again, I was not on the committee, but have been (because of the Division for Planetary Sciences Committee) briefed by Rick Binzel who was on the committee and who we questioned. Plutons: a class of planets. The committee used a star analogue like T-Tauri stars or Cepheid variables. So Plutons are PLANETS with orbital periods greater than 200 years. So, Pluto is a planet, it is a pluton, it is a KBO, and it is a TNO! Ceres, as far as I can tell (do not know this for sure) will just be a planet. Since terrestrial and jovian (or gas giant) are not recognized by the IAU (see their QA), it is not a terrestrial planet (at least officially). So, there are the classical planets (not an offical term) and the plutons (an official term). Poor Ceres is in neither. IAU does use the term dwarf planet, but that will not be an official term. Also minor planet goes away. Asteroids and comets are now small Solar System bodies. This just removes the word planet from anything that is not a planet. Sounds good to me. Larry __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] 'Plutons' Push Planet Total Up To 12
Darren: We were getting ready to redo a kids video we did years ago and now we have to add three new planets (one without a name yet). Larry __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] 'Plutons' Push Planet Total Up To 12
Hi Chris: Since your two posts on this subjsetc, I think some of the responders have gotten a little out of hand and think that they know more than everyone else. 1. This is the second committee to have dealt with the issue of determining a definition of a planet. 2. A lot of the discussion of the second committee was based heavily on what the first committee did. 3. A lot of effort was put into the formation of this committee to get a crosssection of the community from a variety of countries and included a premier science writer and an astronomy historian. To some of you listening, do you think that in the two or three milliseconds that you thought about what was proposed by this IAU committee that you are better qualified to come up with a solution? 4. Now that I have vented my splean, I will respond to your emails, Chris. 5. Yes, the IAU does have the authority to make such decisions! They are the organization recognized by ALL astronomers as the organization who can do such things. They OK the names of asteroids and comets and are the organization who came up with the 88 constellations that we have today. 6. Which brings me back to your second (I think) email. First a side note to Ed, I think (am losing track of the emails, I dumped enough on Sterling). Granted there are only 7 continents and 7 seas, should we limit ourselves to 9 US states because that is all you can remember or 9 countries (I will not go there)? 7. I have spent nearly two decades doing science education (3.5 doing science) and one of the most important things that we can teach are kids is that science is dynamic and that numbers change. When I grew up there were 32 moons in the Solar System and no extra solar planets (and no Kuiper Belt Objects). However, I have changes what I teach as we learn more. That is the true nature of science. If you were teaching in 1930 would you have left the Solar System with 8 planets? or in the early 1700s, kept the Solar System at 6 planets? Traditionally, the Earth is the center of the universe, why not let well enough alone? Get a little off track, sorry. 8. A lot of effort and a lot of thought went into this decision both from a SCIENTIFIC (not technical) perspective and from an historical perspective. I know all of the people on the first committee and many of the people on the second one and I have respect for them and for their decision. While this is only a proposal to the IAU General Assembly and may change before next week (doubt there will be much of a change), I think that you are doing a disservice to your students by telling them that there are only nine planets (it is all over the news, how can they miss it). Chris, if you want to continue this discussion offline, please feel free to contact me. Larry -- Dr. Larry A. Lebofsky Senior Research Scientist Co-editor, Meteorite If you give a man a fish, Lunar and Planetary Laboratory you feed him for a day. 1541 East University If you teach a man to fish, University of Arizonayou feed him for a lifetime. Tucson, AZ 85721-0063 ~Chinese Proverb Phone: 520-621-6947 FAX:520-621-8364 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] 'Plutons' Push Planet Total Up To 12
Hi Darren: I promised myself to not be the one to send out a dozen emails on a subject, but I seem to be breaking my own promise. I do not have the information in front of me, but will attempt to contact the person who knows the answer. (how big of an object can still be out there and not detected) What happens when you find something that is say the size of the Moon or just a little smaller than Mercury at the outer edges of the Kuiper Belt. This is not out of the question. What do you call it then? Just say too bad we have 9 (or 8 planets) and that is life? Science is not done that way it is dynamic and things do change. Granted my example with the Earth-centered system was going too far (I admit when I am wrong). When Archaea were first discovered, did biologists ignor them because they did not fit into the existing Eukaryota and Bacteria scheme? You need to be able to classify things and be willing to quantify classifications so that new discoveries can fit into these (or you create a new class). Saying that this is just the opinion of a group of astronomers shows a disrespect for astronomy as a science. Yes, you can have your own opinion. However, a lot of time and thought and research went into this proposal. It is more than just an opinion. It is solidly based on observation and the physical nature of the objects in our Solar System and other objects that are likely to be found in the future. Is is perfect? Probably not. But it is necessary. Larry Quoting Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 09:26:39 -0700, you wrote: science. If you were teaching in 1930 would you have left the Solar System with 8 planets? or in the early 1700s, kept the Solar System at 6 planets? Traditionally, the Earth is the center of the universe, why not let well enough alone? The difference is, the idea that the Earth is the center of the solar system was proven incorrect, so that theory was replaced with one with the sun at the center. Wherther or not Pluto is a planet is a semantic opinion, though-- little different than debating on how many angels can dance on the head of a needle. People have the right to disagree with opinions, even if it is with the opinions of the top astronomers in the field. Myself, I think the opinion of calling KBOs and Ceres planets seems to be just a way to keep calling Pluto a planet and makes a royal mess that will just get worse as more KBOs are discovered. So, not only in 1930, in 2006 if I were teaching I'd want to teach that there are 8 planets, plus KBOs, asteroids, and comets. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] 'Plutons' Push Planet Total Up To 12
Hi Sterling: It is a little more complicated than that! Remember that Pluto is tilted on its side (about) and so while in recent years half the time Charon is closer or further away, in a mere 50 years or so (1/4 of the orbit) they will be side by side. In response to Rob's last email, yes, the center of mass is outside Pluto (the same criterion used for binary stars), so binary planet. Larry Quoting Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, Pluto and Charon are Planets Ten and Eleven; Which is which? Nobody knows, outside of Heaven. The orbital period of Charon is 6.38723 days. Half that time, it's Eleven; half that time it's Ten. But don't ask when! Just think of them as Planet 10-11, like 7-11 or 9-11, as a set, or maybe as Planet EleventyTen. Their surfaces are only 16,040 km apart! Just jump real hard! I just mean, they're cozy. I can't see the problem of the redefinition being very large for us, or people generally, or astronomers, or even school children, but one thought occurs to me. What about the Astrologers? Are they going to ignore this? Or re-write everything? Customers will come in and then complain because the aspects of Ceres are not included in their Charts. What about the influence of Charon on their Love Life? You're a Scorpio with Xena rising... What a mess! Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: David Weir [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:41 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] 'Plutons' Push Planet Total Up To 12 Sterling, In what order would you place the 12 planets? Would the order for Pluto and Charon be based on which is usually closest to the Sun? If so, which would be most often closest to the Sun? I'm having trouble picturing this orbital dance in my head. David __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Dr. Larry A. Lebofsky Senior Research Scientist Co-editor, Meteorite If you give a man a fish, Lunar and Planetary Laboratory you feed him for a day. 1541 East University If you teach a man to fish, University of Arizonayou feed him for a lifetime. Tucson, AZ 85721-0063 ~Chinese Proverb Phone: 520-621-6947 FAX:520-621-8364 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
