Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list
Hey Mike, Sorry to hear about the terrible problems you guys are going through. I shouldn't have gotten nasty with you as well, so sorry about that. Best wishes from Tucson (Vail). Mark Bowling - Original Message From: Galactic Stone & Ironworks To: Robert Ward Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 7:12:17 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list Hi Folks, This is my last post on this subject - I promise. This train wreck of negativity over the gun photo has gone too far. I played a role in that, and for that I apologize. There are deep divisions in this country that have been encouraged by those who will profit from keeping the populace divided. This country is the most polarized that I have ever seen, and people who would normally get along fine are at each other's throats at the drop of a dime. That is what is fueling a sizeable portion of the hostility going on right now, it's not just the guns. The gun provided a spark that lit the pool of gasoline that was already there. I posted some things that I should not have. I have strong beliefs and those burst forth in a couple of frustrated posts that were directed more at an idea than a person or a gun. Robert Ward, I apologize for calling you "son" and speaking in a condescending fashion. I don't know you and I was lashing out at something you represent (in my mind) and not you. I grew up in the deep south, surrounded by "rednecks". My father was a redneck. I know that calling another man "son" is like a challenge to one's manhood and it is condescending. I respect your contributions to meteoritics and I respect your meteorite hunting skills. You are a very underrated hunter and a fair dealer. I bought a Brenham thin slice from you a while back on eBay and it is still one of my favorite pieces. I have no beef with you personally, unless this episode created one, which would be regrettable. For those who may care, here is why I lashed out - my wife is very sick with chronic health conditions. I will not go into all of the long details, but believe me when I say it has been the most difficult period of our lives. I almost lost her and sitting in ICU watching your soulmate fight for life will make a man do some long and hard thinking. We don't have health insurance and cannot afford health insurance because her condition is pre-existing and no insurance company will touch her with a 10-foot pole, or if they will, the premiums are so astronomical that they are impossible. We have never taken a dime in public assistance and the reason we had no insurance when her condition arose, is because we both quit full-time management jobs (and good insurance) to be caregivers for her elderly father who has Alzheimers - something we did out of love to keep him from going into a nursing home. (a fate that a highly-decorated WWII veteran does not deserve) So we lost our insurance while we were doing the right thing - and then my wife got sick. Where is this going? All of the people who are erecting roadblocks to my wife getting affordable insurance (and thus access to decent healthcare that isn't an emergency room last resort) are people from the right/conservative/republican side of the political and social spectrum. So, I am developing a big chip on my shoulder towards the political right because they are, in essence, prolonging my wife's suffering by preventing meaningful healthcare reform. And all of the arguments against it center around money - which doesn't mean a darn thing to me if I lose my wife and soulmate. All of the money in the world won't bring her back if she dies for lack of medical care. There are other layers to this situation, but I think this explains the bulk of my frustration. If you are blessed with good health and your loved ones are blessed with good health - then wake up each day be thankful for it - because it is truly a blessing and it can suddenly be revoked without warning or reason. This is truly the most difficult part of my life and my wife's life and it is very frustrating to be denied medical care because we lack money and insurance - and we fall between the cracks in the system. It is a nightmare that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. So, when I see/hear/read people from the right-side of the political spectrum, a surge of hostility, resentment, and frustration wells up in me. (which is not a good thing, I know). After I shot my mouth off, I got a flood replies (some public, some private) and I latched onto your's because it was the first one I clicked on that disagreed with me. Then I shot my mouth off again, and the cycle continued. And now it has become a major distraction to the List and it has fostered division in the meteorite circles. That was not my intent, but it was clearly the result of my words and I s
Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list - the end.
Hello Mike, List, I am very sorry to here about your wife, and understand that such a burden can affect one's actions, I have been there before. I accept your apology, and hope that things start looking up for both you, and your wife. To the rest of the people on the list, sorry to burden your ears with this thread, and Jason, I am cool with you too. Robert. On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 7:12 PM, Galactic Stone & Ironworks wrote: > Hi Folks, > > This is my last post on this subject - I promise. > > This train wreck of negativity over the gun photo has gone too far. I > played a role in that, and for that I apologize. > > There are deep divisions in this country that have been encouraged by > those who will profit from keeping the populace divided. This country > is the most polarized that I have ever seen, and people who would > normally get along fine are at each other's throats at the drop of a > dime. That is what is fueling a sizeable portion of the hostility > going on right now, it's not just the guns. The gun provided a spark > that lit the pool of gasoline that was already there. I posted some > things that I should not have. I have strong beliefs and those burst > forth in a couple of frustrated posts that were directed more at an > idea than a person or a gun. > > Robert Ward, I apologize for calling you "son" and speaking in a > condescending fashion. I don't know you and I was lashing out at > something you represent (in my mind) and not you. I grew up in the > deep south, surrounded by "rednecks". My father was a redneck. I > know that calling another man "son" is like a challenge to one's > manhood and it is condescending. I respect your contributions to > meteoritics and I respect your meteorite hunting skills. You are a > very underrated hunter and a fair dealer. I bought a Brenham thin > slice from you a while back on eBay and it is still one of my favorite > pieces. I have no beef with you personally, unless this episode > created one, which would be regrettable. > > For those who may care, here is why I lashed out - my wife is very > sick with chronic health conditions. I will not go into all of the > long details, but believe me when I say it has been the most difficult > period of our lives. I almost lost her and sitting in ICU watching > your soulmate fight for life will make a man do some long and hard > thinking. We don't have health insurance and cannot afford health > insurance because her condition is pre-existing and no insurance > company will touch her with a 10-foot pole, or if they will, the > premiums are so astronomical that they are impossible. We have never > taken a dime in public assistance and the reason we had no insurance > when her condition arose, is because we both quit full-time management > jobs (and good insurance) to be caregivers for her elderly father who > has Alzheimers - something we did out of love to keep him from going > into a nursing home. (a fate that a highly-decorated WWII veteran > does not deserve) So we lost our insurance while we were doing the > right thing - and then my wife got sick. Where is this going? All of > the people who are erecting roadblocks to my wife getting affordable > insurance (and thus access to decent healthcare that isn't an > emergency room last resort) are people from the > right/conservative/republican side of the political and social > spectrum. So, I am developing a big chip on my shoulder towards the > political right because they are, in essence, prolonging my wife's > suffering by preventing meaningful healthcare reform. And all of the > arguments against it center around money - which doesn't mean a darn > thing to me if I lose my wife and soulmate. All of the money in the > world won't bring her back if she dies for lack of medical care. > There are other layers to this situation, but I think this explains > the bulk of my frustration. If you are blessed with good health and > your loved ones are blessed with good health - then wake up each day > be thankful for it - because it is truly a blessing and it can > suddenly be revoked without warning or reason. This is truly the most > difficult part of my life and my wife's life and it is very > frustrating to be denied medical care because we lack money and > insurance - and we fall between the cracks in the system. It is a > nightmare that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. > > So, when I see/hear/read people from the right-side of the political > spectrum, a surge of hostility, resentment, and frustration wells up > in me. (which is not a good thing, I know). After I shot my mouth > off, I got a flood replies (some public, some private) and I latched > onto your's because it was the first one I clicked on that disagreed > with me. Then I shot my mouth off again, and the cycle continued. > And now it has become a major distraction to the List and it has > fostered division in the meteorite circles. That was not my intent, > but it w
Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list
wow mike, yours was as candid an expression of contrition as i have ever read. in the unlikely event anyone who does not accept your mea culpa, no worries---they are not half the person you are. deeply touchingunderstanding of how frustration can morph to aggressionprofoundly wishing you and your wife the very best, darryl hoping yours is the final word in these days of crossfire. On Feb 4, 2010, at 9:12 PM, Galactic Stone & Ironworks wrote: Hi Folks, This is my last post on this subject - I promise. This train wreck of negativity over the gun photo has gone too far. I played a role in that, and for that I apologize. There are deep divisions in this country that have been encouraged by those who will profit from keeping the populace divided. This country is the most polarized that I have ever seen, and people who would normally get along fine are at each other's throats at the drop of a dime. That is what is fueling a sizeable portion of the hostility going on right now, it's not just the guns. The gun provided a spark that lit the pool of gasoline that was already there. I posted some things that I should not have. I have strong beliefs and those burst forth in a couple of frustrated posts that were directed more at an idea than a person or a gun. Robert Ward, I apologize for calling you "son" and speaking in a condescending fashion. I don't know you and I was lashing out at something you represent (in my mind) and not you. I grew up in the deep south, surrounded by "rednecks". My father was a redneck. I know that calling another man "son" is like a challenge to one's manhood and it is condescending. I respect your contributions to meteoritics and I respect your meteorite hunting skills. You are a very underrated hunter and a fair dealer. I bought a Brenham thin slice from you a while back on eBay and it is still one of my favorite pieces. I have no beef with you personally, unless this episode created one, which would be regrettable. For those who may care, here is why I lashed out - my wife is very sick with chronic health conditions. I will not go into all of the long details, but believe me when I say it has been the most difficult period of our lives. I almost lost her and sitting in ICU watching your soulmate fight for life will make a man do some long and hard thinking. We don't have health insurance and cannot afford health insurance because her condition is pre-existing and no insurance company will touch her with a 10-foot pole, or if they will, the premiums are so astronomical that they are impossible. We have never taken a dime in public assistance and the reason we had no insurance when her condition arose, is because we both quit full-time management jobs (and good insurance) to be caregivers for her elderly father who has Alzheimers - something we did out of love to keep him from going into a nursing home. (a fate that a highly-decorated WWII veteran does not deserve) So we lost our insurance while we were doing the right thing - and then my wife got sick. Where is this going? All of the people who are erecting roadblocks to my wife getting affordable insurance (and thus access to decent healthcare that isn't an emergency room last resort) are people from the right/conservative/republican side of the political and social spectrum. So, I am developing a big chip on my shoulder towards the political right because they are, in essence, prolonging my wife's suffering by preventing meaningful healthcare reform. And all of the arguments against it center around money - which doesn't mean a darn thing to me if I lose my wife and soulmate. All of the money in the world won't bring her back if she dies for lack of medical care. There are other layers to this situation, but I think this explains the bulk of my frustration. If you are blessed with good health and your loved ones are blessed with good health - then wake up each day be thankful for it - because it is truly a blessing and it can suddenly be revoked without warning or reason. This is truly the most difficult part of my life and my wife's life and it is very frustrating to be denied medical care because we lack money and insurance - and we fall between the cracks in the system. It is a nightmare that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. So, when I see/hear/read people from the right-side of the political spectrum, a surge of hostility, resentment, and frustration wells up in me. (which is not a good thing, I know). After I shot my mouth off, I got a flood replies (some public, some private) and I latched onto your's because it was the first one I clicked on that disagreed with me. Then I shot my mouth off again, and the cycle continued. And now it has become a major distraction to the List and it has fostered division in the meteorite circles. That was not my intent, but it was clearly the result of my words and I should have foresaw that. To Michael Johnson - I us
Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list
Hi Folks, This is my last post on this subject - I promise. This train wreck of negativity over the gun photo has gone too far. I played a role in that, and for that I apologize. There are deep divisions in this country that have been encouraged by those who will profit from keeping the populace divided. This country is the most polarized that I have ever seen, and people who would normally get along fine are at each other's throats at the drop of a dime. That is what is fueling a sizeable portion of the hostility going on right now, it's not just the guns. The gun provided a spark that lit the pool of gasoline that was already there. I posted some things that I should not have. I have strong beliefs and those burst forth in a couple of frustrated posts that were directed more at an idea than a person or a gun. Robert Ward, I apologize for calling you "son" and speaking in a condescending fashion. I don't know you and I was lashing out at something you represent (in my mind) and not you. I grew up in the deep south, surrounded by "rednecks". My father was a redneck. I know that calling another man "son" is like a challenge to one's manhood and it is condescending. I respect your contributions to meteoritics and I respect your meteorite hunting skills. You are a very underrated hunter and a fair dealer. I bought a Brenham thin slice from you a while back on eBay and it is still one of my favorite pieces. I have no beef with you personally, unless this episode created one, which would be regrettable. For those who may care, here is why I lashed out - my wife is very sick with chronic health conditions. I will not go into all of the long details, but believe me when I say it has been the most difficult period of our lives. I almost lost her and sitting in ICU watching your soulmate fight for life will make a man do some long and hard thinking. We don't have health insurance and cannot afford health insurance because her condition is pre-existing and no insurance company will touch her with a 10-foot pole, or if they will, the premiums are so astronomical that they are impossible. We have never taken a dime in public assistance and the reason we had no insurance when her condition arose, is because we both quit full-time management jobs (and good insurance) to be caregivers for her elderly father who has Alzheimers - something we did out of love to keep him from going into a nursing home. (a fate that a highly-decorated WWII veteran does not deserve) So we lost our insurance while we were doing the right thing - and then my wife got sick. Where is this going? All of the people who are erecting roadblocks to my wife getting affordable insurance (and thus access to decent healthcare that isn't an emergency room last resort) are people from the right/conservative/republican side of the political and social spectrum. So, I am developing a big chip on my shoulder towards the political right because they are, in essence, prolonging my wife's suffering by preventing meaningful healthcare reform. And all of the arguments against it center around money - which doesn't mean a darn thing to me if I lose my wife and soulmate. All of the money in the world won't bring her back if she dies for lack of medical care. There are other layers to this situation, but I think this explains the bulk of my frustration. If you are blessed with good health and your loved ones are blessed with good health - then wake up each day be thankful for it - because it is truly a blessing and it can suddenly be revoked without warning or reason. This is truly the most difficult part of my life and my wife's life and it is very frustrating to be denied medical care because we lack money and insurance - and we fall between the cracks in the system. It is a nightmare that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. So, when I see/hear/read people from the right-side of the political spectrum, a surge of hostility, resentment, and frustration wells up in me. (which is not a good thing, I know). After I shot my mouth off, I got a flood replies (some public, some private) and I latched onto your's because it was the first one I clicked on that disagreed with me. Then I shot my mouth off again, and the cycle continued. And now it has become a major distraction to the List and it has fostered division in the meteorite circles. That was not my intent, but it was clearly the result of my words and I should have foresaw that. To Michael Johnson - I used the same poor judgement that I accused you of - by posting my frustrations to the List. I should have known it would stir the pot and fan the flames. I honestly don't believe you "trolled" the List with your posting. It's not a photo I would have selected to post, but that doesn't mean you exercised poor judgement, just because I didn't agree with it. To the pro-gun people - I am one of you. I grew up with guns in a good ole boy family of Arkansas, Mississippi, and Mis
Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list
Hey ironfromthesky, I'm sorry if you misinterpreted what I said, Robert - there's a reason I haven't been using that terminology and put that in quotes. By "the redneck crap" I meant to refer to what people had been saying about "rednecks" on the whole, because such sweeping, generalized statements really don't add much to the discussion, and are liable to insult people. Of course, when people are looking to take offense at things that are being said, it's a little hard to get around it, but, again, I was addressing what was said. And it's true, "rednecks" are generally seen in a negative light. There are jokes about the stereotype, and it's generally not a good thing to be considered a "redneck." Hence the offensive comments on the list, though I was *not* one of the people who made them. I stand by what I said, but not how you interpreted it. > get some real world experience, perhaps then you can base > your arguments off something more substantial than than charts, > graphs, and statistics put together by some professor in a office > somewhere that you have never met. Right, because scientists are so unreliable, and studies that look at the entire population of this country are certainly less correct than my rationale regarding the matter. Surely what I perceive is more correct than hundreds of studies and millions of dollars of research Come on, man. Saying that you doubt the credibility of every scientist you've never met is just...weird. I mean, great - be critical and look into the data, but I did check the sources on the link I posted and they weren't bad. > You must live in a scary world. A scary world? Well, a little, since you're the one with the gun, but...I'm not scared enough to go out and buy one. So...maybe you should ask yourself the same question. Jason On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Robert Ward wrote: > Hey meteoritekid, may I suggest that you "unplug" for a while, go > outside, and get some real world experience, perhaps then you can base > your arguments off something more substantial than than charts, > graphs, and statistics put together by some professor in a office > somewhere that you have never met. You said "the redneck crap" "is a > culture that people tend to view negatively", glad to know how you > feel about my culture and that you view people like me as second rate > citizens, that is not very tolerant for such a leftist. You must live > in a scary world. > > On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Jason Utas wrote: >> Hello Mike, Robert, All, >> >>> Mike G. I would like to point out that Michael Johnson has has made a >>> huge impact on this community, he tries his best to represent people >>> that are from all walks of life in the meteorite world, for you to >>> target him as using "poor judgement" is insulting, that is just YOUR >>> opinion, not fact as stated by you. >> >> And he's fully entitled to that opinion. And sometimes people who are >> in positions of power and who have done good things make mistakes. It >> happens. Happened. >> >>> I am not your "son" and please >>> correct me if I am wrong, but I don't recall seeing you at any state >>> shoots, ranges, or having read your scores, or article's in any >>> firearms publications. Are you a gunsmith? Did you ever shoot >>> professionally? Do you have a piece of paper on the wall that says you >>> know what you are talking about? >> >> It doesn't take firing a gun, making a gun, or being trained to use a >> gun to know more about statistics and what they say about >> gun ownership. That's like saying a pyro should be well-versed in >> fire safety and know that starting fires is dangerous, and probably >> shouldn't be done. >> >>> You say that it is incorrect to >>> state that "it is people, not guns that kill" Show me one case of a >>> firearm autonomously 'jumping up and killing someone'. A person is >>> involved 100% percent of the time. >> >> And a gun is involved in 100% of firearm deaths. And there are a lot >> of those. >> >>> toting around grandpa's squirrel >>> gun, and telling stories at your local bar does not mean you know >>> it all, but it is a good indicator of your mindset. Robert. >> >> Sorry, I'm late for the lesbian tree-hugger benefit. Gotta get there >> before the sun goes down. >> >> Jason >> >>> On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 7:31 AM, Galactic Stone & Ironworks >>> wrote: Hi Robert and List, Ok everyone, this is getting tiresome. We are all overlooking the obvious - it was poor judgement on Michael Johnson's part to post that photo. Period. Regardless of one's views on guns, this List is global and that photo was bound to stir up trouble - it doesn't take a psychic or mind reader to know that. Posting that photo was essentially a troll - perhaps not intentional, but the effect was the same. It should be common sense not to post controversial material on a public list. You say you are a "expert in the gu
Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list
Hey meteoritekid, may I suggest that you "unplug" for a while, go outside, and get some real world experience, perhaps then you can base your arguments off something more substantial than than charts, graphs, and statistics put together by some professor in a office somewhere that you have never met. You said "the redneck crap" "is a culture that people tend to view negatively", glad to know how you feel about my culture and that you view people like me as second rate citizens, that is not very tolerant for such a leftist. You must live in a scary world. On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Jason Utas wrote: > Hello Mike, Robert, All, > >> Mike G. I would like to point out that Michael Johnson has has made a >> huge impact on this community, he tries his best to represent people >> that are from all walks of life in the meteorite world, for you to >> target him as using "poor judgement" is insulting, that is just YOUR >> opinion, not fact as stated by you. > > And he's fully entitled to that opinion. And sometimes people who are > in positions of power and who have done good things make mistakes. It > happens. Happened. > >> I am not your "son" and please >> correct me if I am wrong, but I don't recall seeing you at any state >> shoots, ranges, or having read your scores, or article's in any >> firearms publications. Are you a gunsmith? Did you ever shoot >> professionally? Do you have a piece of paper on the wall that says you >> know what you are talking about? > > It doesn't take firing a gun, making a gun, or being trained to use a > gun to know more about statistics and what they say about > gun ownership. That's like saying a pyro should be well-versed in > fire safety and know that starting fires is dangerous, and probably > shouldn't be done. > >> You say that it is incorrect to >> state that "it is people, not guns that kill" Show me one case of a >> firearm autonomously 'jumping up and killing someone'. A person is >> involved 100% percent of the time. > > And a gun is involved in 100% of firearm deaths. And there are a lot > of those. > >> toting around grandpa's squirrel >> gun, and telling stories at your local bar does not mean you know >> it all, but it is a good indicator of your mindset. Robert. > > Sorry, I'm late for the lesbian tree-hugger benefit. Gotta get there > before the sun goes down. > > Jason > >> On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 7:31 AM, Galactic Stone & Ironworks >> wrote: >>> Hi Robert and List, >>> >>> Ok everyone, this is getting tiresome. >>> >>> We are all overlooking the obvious - it was poor judgement on Michael >>> Johnson's part to post that photo. Period. Regardless of one's views >>> on guns, this List is global and that photo was bound to stir up >>> trouble - it doesn't take a psychic or mind reader to know that. >>> Posting that photo was essentially a troll - perhaps not intentional, >>> but the effect was the same. >>> >>> It should be common sense not to post controversial material on a public >>> list. >>> >>> You say you are a "expert in the gun field" - Listen son, I was toting >>> around guns before you were a twinkle in your daddy's eye. There is >>> nothing you can tell me about guns that I don't already know and I >>> have forgotten more about guns than you will ever hope to know. So go >>> take your passionate "it's people not guns that kill" defense and call >>> it in to your favorite right-wing AM-radio talk show - I'm sure you'll >>> have a eager audience of Rush Limbaugh fans to agree with you. >>> >>> This is not a matter of pushing delete when you see something you >>> don't like - it's called "ROCKS FROM SPACE PICTURE OF THE DAY" - not >>> "POINTING GUNS AT METEORITE PEOPLE PICTURE OF THE DAY". Can you not >>> see that the photo could have been completely unexpected to many and >>> they were caught off-guard by it? >>> >>> It was fine to stage to photo, it was perfectly good to have fun, it >>> was fine to share the photo with friends. It was poor judgement to >>> post that photo to the Meteorite List. >>> >>> Now excuse me, I have to go host a benefit for retired lesbian tree >>> huggers at my solar-energy-powered gay bar. >>> >>> Best regards and happy hunting, >>> >>> MikeG >>> >>> >>> On 2/3/10, Robert Ward wrote: I spent three years training at the finest firearms institution on the planet learning about every aspect of the industry, and even designing and manufacturing my own firearms models, I am an expert in the field, and I assure you they are not "killing tools" and "assault rifles" when they leave the factory. They are pieces of metal and plastic, People do the killing, guns are inanimate objects. So Mr. G, I have been involved with firearms my entire life, ask my friends if they think I am a morbid person. You say we should not offend our European friends with our rights and traditions? Growing up I spent my summers in Africa, and I saw things that offended my that are far to morb
Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list
Hello Mike, Robert, All, > Mike G. I would like to point out that Michael Johnson has has made a > huge impact on this community, he tries his best to represent people > that are from all walks of life in the meteorite world, for you to > target him as using "poor judgement" is insulting, that is just YOUR > opinion, not fact as stated by you. And he's fully entitled to that opinion. And sometimes people who are in positions of power and who have done good things make mistakes. It happens. Happened. > I am not your "son" and please > correct me if I am wrong, but I don't recall seeing you at any state > shoots, ranges, or having read your scores, or article's in any > firearms publications. Are you a gunsmith? Did you ever shoot > professionally? Do you have a piece of paper on the wall that says you > know what you are talking about? It doesn't take firing a gun, making a gun, or being trained to use a gun to know more about statistics and what they say about gun ownership. That's like saying a pyro should be well-versed in fire safety and know that starting fires is dangerous, and probably shouldn't be done. > You say that it is incorrect to > state that "it is people, not guns that kill" Show me one case of a > firearm autonomously 'jumping up and killing someone'. A person is > involved 100% percent of the time. And a gun is involved in 100% of firearm deaths. And there are a lot of those. > toting around grandpa's squirrel > gun, and telling stories at your local bar does not mean you know > it all, but it is a good indicator of your mindset. Robert. Sorry, I'm late for the lesbian tree-hugger benefit. Gotta get there before the sun goes down. Jason > On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 7:31 AM, Galactic Stone & Ironworks > wrote: >> Hi Robert and List, >> >> Ok everyone, this is getting tiresome. >> >> We are all overlooking the obvious - it was poor judgement on Michael >> Johnson's part to post that photo. Period. Regardless of one's views >> on guns, this List is global and that photo was bound to stir up >> trouble - it doesn't take a psychic or mind reader to know that. >> Posting that photo was essentially a troll - perhaps not intentional, >> but the effect was the same. >> >> It should be common sense not to post controversial material on a public >> list. >> >> You say you are a "expert in the gun field" - Listen son, I was toting >> around guns before you were a twinkle in your daddy's eye. There is >> nothing you can tell me about guns that I don't already know and I >> have forgotten more about guns than you will ever hope to know. So go >> take your passionate "it's people not guns that kill" defense and call >> it in to your favorite right-wing AM-radio talk show - I'm sure you'll >> have a eager audience of Rush Limbaugh fans to agree with you. >> >> This is not a matter of pushing delete when you see something you >> don't like - it's called "ROCKS FROM SPACE PICTURE OF THE DAY" - not >> "POINTING GUNS AT METEORITE PEOPLE PICTURE OF THE DAY". Can you not >> see that the photo could have been completely unexpected to many and >> they were caught off-guard by it? >> >> It was fine to stage to photo, it was perfectly good to have fun, it >> was fine to share the photo with friends. It was poor judgement to >> post that photo to the Meteorite List. >> >> Now excuse me, I have to go host a benefit for retired lesbian tree >> huggers at my solar-energy-powered gay bar. >> >> Best regards and happy hunting, >> >> MikeG >> >> >> On 2/3/10, Robert Ward wrote: >>> I spent three years training at the finest firearms institution on the >>> planet learning about every aspect of the industry, and even designing >>> and manufacturing my own firearms models, I am an expert in the field, >>> and I assure you they are not "killing tools" and "assault rifles" >>> when they leave the factory. They are pieces of metal and plastic, >>> People do the killing, guns are inanimate objects. So Mr. G, I have >>> been involved with firearms my entire life, ask my friends if they >>> think I am a morbid person. You say we should not offend our European >>> friends with our rights and traditions? Growing up I spent my summers >>> in Africa, and I saw things that offended my that are far to morbid to >>> mention here, I did not offend them by sharing my thoughts of these >>> customs, I looked the other way and left, if that pic offends you push >>> delete. I noticed a post that mentioned a statistic from the FBI >>> website, 9,369 firearms related murders in the U.S. in 2002, another >>> statistic to compare this to is the great genocide in Rwanda, 800,000 >>> murdered with machete's. I assure you, in the right hands some sharp >>> Chinga, or Seymchan slices that are for sale in several rooms in >>> Tucson could dispatch one's life just as fast as a firearm. Peter >>> Davidson, those who know me would probably agree that I am someone >>> that could be pigeon holed into some Hick-Redneck category, Peter,
Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list
Mike G. I would like to point out that Michael Johnson has has made a huge impact on this community, he tries his best to represent people that are from all walks of life in the meteorite world, for you to target him as using "poor judgement" is insulting, that is just YOUR opinion, not fact as stated by you. I am not your "son" and please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't recall seeing you at any state shoots, ranges, or having read your scores, or article's in any firearms publications. Are you a gunsmith? Did you ever shoot professionally? Do you have a piece of paper on the wall that says you know what you are talking about? You say that it is incorrect to state that "it is people, not guns that kill" Show me one case of a firearm autonomously 'jumping up and killing someone'. A person is involved 100% percent of the time. toting around grandpa's squirrel gun, and telling stories at your local bar does not mean you know it all, but it is a good indicator of your mindset. Robert. On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 7:31 AM, Galactic Stone & Ironworks wrote: > Hi Robert and List, > > Ok everyone, this is getting tiresome. > > We are all overlooking the obvious - it was poor judgement on Michael > Johnson's part to post that photo. Period. Regardless of one's views > on guns, this List is global and that photo was bound to stir up > trouble - it doesn't take a psychic or mind reader to know that. > Posting that photo was essentially a troll - perhaps not intentional, > but the effect was the same. > > It should be common sense not to post controversial material on a public list. > > You say you are a "expert in the gun field" - Listen son, I was toting > around guns before you were a twinkle in your daddy's eye. There is > nothing you can tell me about guns that I don't already know and I > have forgotten more about guns than you will ever hope to know. So go > take your passionate "it's people not guns that kill" defense and call > it in to your favorite right-wing AM-radio talk show - I'm sure you'll > have a eager audience of Rush Limbaugh fans to agree with you. > > This is not a matter of pushing delete when you see something you > don't like - it's called "ROCKS FROM SPACE PICTURE OF THE DAY" - not > "POINTING GUNS AT METEORITE PEOPLE PICTURE OF THE DAY". Can you not > see that the photo could have been completely unexpected to many and > they were caught off-guard by it? > > It was fine to stage to photo, it was perfectly good to have fun, it > was fine to share the photo with friends. It was poor judgement to > post that photo to the Meteorite List. > > Now excuse me, I have to go host a benefit for retired lesbian tree > huggers at my solar-energy-powered gay bar. > > Best regards and happy hunting, > > MikeG > > > On 2/3/10, Robert Ward wrote: >> I spent three years training at the finest firearms institution on the >> planet learning about every aspect of the industry, and even designing >> and manufacturing my own firearms models, I am an expert in the field, >> and I assure you they are not "killing tools" and "assault rifles" >> when they leave the factory. They are pieces of metal and plastic, >> People do the killing, guns are inanimate objects. So Mr. G, I have >> been involved with firearms my entire life, ask my friends if they >> think I am a morbid person. You say we should not offend our European >> friends with our rights and traditions? Growing up I spent my summers >> in Africa, and I saw things that offended my that are far to morbid to >> mention here, I did not offend them by sharing my thoughts of these >> customs, I looked the other way and left, if that pic offends you push >> delete. I noticed a post that mentioned a statistic from the FBI >> website, 9,369 firearms related murders in the U.S. in 2002, another >> statistic to compare this to is the great genocide in Rwanda, 800,000 >> murdered with machete's. I assure you, in the right hands some sharp >> Chinga, or Seymchan slices that are for sale in several rooms in >> Tucson could dispatch one's life just as fast as a firearm. Peter >> Davidson, those who know me would probably agree that I am someone >> that could be pigeon holed into some Hick-Redneck category, Peter, I >> am not offended by your prejudice, I am proud of my heritage growing >> up on farms and ranches, oh yeah, I am a NRA life member too. I trust >> that all of you that are so offended by this pic do not subscribe to >> cable, or satellite television services, nor do you attend movies with >> "morbid guns" in them. Grow up, just click delete, and spend this much >> time finding some useful input for the METEORITE LIST. Maybe I will >> post a pic of my cats high up on one of my collection pieces so the >> PETA people can have there turn. Robert Ward >> __ >> Visit the Archives at >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.co
Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list
Mike, Are you really trying to defuse the situation? By bringing up Rush Limbaugh, gays/lesbians and tree huggers? And Jason bringing "Jesus" last night? You're just upsetting more people on the list. And you have the gall to attack the "taste" of the photo, with an even more tasteless tirade... Nobody is going to convince anybody, and all we have is even more vitreol in our public archives. I've been giving a lot of private replies, how about trying that for once and stop dragging in more special interest groups... Mark Bowling Vail, AZ - Original Message From: Galactic Stone & Ironworks To: Robert Ward Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 7:31:00 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list Hi Robert and List, Ok everyone, this is getting tiresome. We are all overlooking the obvious - it was poor judgement on Michael Johnson's part to post that photo. Period. Regardless of one's views on guns, this List is global and that photo was bound to stir up trouble - it doesn't take a psychic or mind reader to know that. Posting that photo was essentially a troll - perhaps not intentional, but the effect was the same. It should be common sense not to post controversial material on a public list. You say you are a "expert in the gun field" - Listen son, I was toting around guns before you were a twinkle in your daddy's eye. There is nothing you can tell me about guns that I don't already know and I have forgotten more about guns than you will ever hope to know. So go take your passionate "it's people not guns that kill" defense and call it in to your favorite right-wing AM-radio talk show - I'm sure you'll have a eager audience of Rush Limbaugh fans to agree with you. This is not a matter of pushing delete when you see something you don't like - it's called "ROCKS FROM SPACE PICTURE OF THE DAY" - not "POINTING GUNS AT METEORITE PEOPLE PICTURE OF THE DAY". Can you not see that the photo could have been completely unexpected to many and they were caught off-guard by it? It was fine to stage to photo, it was perfectly good to have fun, it was fine to share the photo with friends. It was poor judgement to post that photo to the Meteorite List. Now excuse me, I have to go host a benefit for retired lesbian tree huggers at my solar-energy-powered gay bar. Best regards and happy hunting, MikeG On 2/3/10, Robert Ward wrote: > I spent three years training at the finest firearms institution on the > planet learning about every aspect of the industry, and even designing > and manufacturing my own firearms models, I am an expert in the field, > and I assure you they are not "killing tools" and "assault rifles" > when they leave the factory. They are pieces of metal and plastic, > People do the killing, guns are inanimate objects. So Mr. G, I have > been involved with firearms my entire life, ask my friends if they > think I am a morbid person. You say we should not offend our European > friends with our rights and traditions? Growing up I spent my summers > in Africa, and I saw things that offended my that are far to morbid to > mention here, I did not offend them by sharing my thoughts of these > customs, I looked the other way and left, if that pic offends you push > delete. I noticed a post that mentioned a statistic from the FBI > website, 9,369 firearms related murders in the U.S. in 2002, another > statistic to compare this to is the great genocide in Rwanda, 800,000 > murdered with machete's. I assure you, in the right hands some sharp > Chinga, or Seymchan slices that are for sale in several rooms in > Tucson could dispatch one's life just as fast as a firearm. Peter > Davidson, those who know me would probably agree that I am someone > that could be pigeon holed into some Hick-Redneck category, Peter, I > am not offended by your prejudice, I am proud of my heritage growing > up on farms and ranches, oh yeah, I am a NRA life member too. I trust > that all of you that are so offended by this pic do not subscribe to > cable, or satellite television services, nor do you attend movies with > "morbid guns" in them. Grow up, just click delete, and spend this much > time finding some useful input for the METEORITE LIST. Maybe I will > post a pic of my cats high up on one of my collection pieces so the > PETA people can have there turn. Robert Ward > __ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- -
Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list
Hi Robert and List, Ok everyone, this is getting tiresome. We are all overlooking the obvious - it was poor judgement on Michael Johnson's part to post that photo. Period. Regardless of one's views on guns, this List is global and that photo was bound to stir up trouble - it doesn't take a psychic or mind reader to know that. Posting that photo was essentially a troll - perhaps not intentional, but the effect was the same. It should be common sense not to post controversial material on a public list. You say you are a "expert in the gun field" - Listen son, I was toting around guns before you were a twinkle in your daddy's eye. There is nothing you can tell me about guns that I don't already know and I have forgotten more about guns than you will ever hope to know. So go take your passionate "it's people not guns that kill" defense and call it in to your favorite right-wing AM-radio talk show - I'm sure you'll have a eager audience of Rush Limbaugh fans to agree with you. This is not a matter of pushing delete when you see something you don't like - it's called "ROCKS FROM SPACE PICTURE OF THE DAY" - not "POINTING GUNS AT METEORITE PEOPLE PICTURE OF THE DAY". Can you not see that the photo could have been completely unexpected to many and they were caught off-guard by it? It was fine to stage to photo, it was perfectly good to have fun, it was fine to share the photo with friends. It was poor judgement to post that photo to the Meteorite List. Now excuse me, I have to go host a benefit for retired lesbian tree huggers at my solar-energy-powered gay bar. Best regards and happy hunting, MikeG On 2/3/10, Robert Ward wrote: > I spent three years training at the finest firearms institution on the > planet learning about every aspect of the industry, and even designing > and manufacturing my own firearms models, I am an expert in the field, > and I assure you they are not "killing tools" and "assault rifles" > when they leave the factory. They are pieces of metal and plastic, > People do the killing, guns are inanimate objects. So Mr. G, I have > been involved with firearms my entire life, ask my friends if they > think I am a morbid person. You say we should not offend our European > friends with our rights and traditions? Growing up I spent my summers > in Africa, and I saw things that offended my that are far to morbid to > mention here, I did not offend them by sharing my thoughts of these > customs, I looked the other way and left, if that pic offends you push > delete. I noticed a post that mentioned a statistic from the FBI > website, 9,369 firearms related murders in the U.S. in 2002, another > statistic to compare this to is the great genocide in Rwanda, 800,000 > murdered with machete's. I assure you, in the right hands some sharp > Chinga, or Seymchan slices that are for sale in several rooms in > Tucson could dispatch one's life just as fast as a firearm. Peter > Davidson, those who know me would probably agree that I am someone > that could be pigeon holed into some Hick-Redneck category, Peter, I > am not offended by your prejudice, I am proud of my heritage growing > up on farms and ranches, oh yeah, I am a NRA life member too. I trust > that all of you that are so offended by this pic do not subscribe to > cable, or satellite television services, nor do you attend movies with > "morbid guns" in them. Grow up, just click delete, and spend this much > time finding some useful input for the METEORITE LIST. Maybe I will > post a pic of my cats high up on one of my collection pieces so the > PETA people can have there turn. Robert Ward > __ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- Mike Gilmer http://www.galactic-stone.com http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list
I've kept quiet on this subject up to now, but since several members won't let it die a decent death, here's my perspective. Kudos to Robert Ward!!! Take a different look at these pieces of metal, wood and plastic. I am sensitive to the overall gun issue but believe they are simply another tool that can be used for good and bad purposes. Guns in the right hands can do marvelous things. In the hands of Allied forces in the 1940's, these "tools" liberated Europe from a fate that I shudder to think what might have been. Over 300,000 American boys picked up these "tools" and made the sacrifice to free many nations, who couldn't do it themselves, from the horror of dictatorship and genocide. Back to lurking, John Gwilliam At 09:03 PM 2/3/2010, Robert Ward wrote: I spent three years training at the finest firearms institution on the planet learning about every aspect of the industry, and even designing and manufacturing my own firearms models, I am an expert in the field, and I assure you they are not "killing tools" and "assault rifles" when they leave the factory. They are pieces of metal and plastic, People do the killing, guns are inanimate objects. So Mr. G, I have been involved with firearms my entire life, ask my friends if they think I am a morbid person. You say we should not offend our European friends with our rights and traditions? Growing up I spent my summers in Africa, and I saw things that offended my that are far to morbid to mention here, I did not offend them by sharing my thoughts of these customs, I looked the other way and left, if that pic offends you push delete. I noticed a post that mentioned a statistic from the FBI website, 9,369 firearms related murders in the U.S. in 2002, another statistic to compare this to is the great genocide in Rwanda, 800,000 murdered with machete's. I assure you, in the right hands some sharp Chinga, or Seymchan slices that are for sale in several rooms in Tucson could dispatch one's life just as fast as a firearm. Peter Davidson, those who know me would probably agree that I am someone that could be pigeon holed into some Hick-Redneck category, Peter, I am not offended by your prejudice, I am proud of my heritage growing up on farms and ranches, oh yeah, I am a NRA life member too. I trust that all of you that are so offended by this pic do not subscribe to cable, or satellite television services, nor do you attend movies with "morbid guns" in them. Grow up, just click delete, and spend this much time finding some useful input for the METEORITE LIST. Maybe I will post a pic of my cats high up on one of my collection pieces so the PETA people can have there turn. Robert Ward __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Regards, John Gwilliam Some people are born on third base and go through life thinking they hit a triple. [Bob Dylan] __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list
its 17 years I use firearms and never kill a person or shot me for mistake, to the opposite one of some Vigilantes work in public they are real dangers when they have a gun in the hand, I seen when they come in the shooting camp for training...all depend from the brain matteo - Original Message - Da : Steve Dunklee A : Erik Fisler , Meteorite-list , Jason Utas Oggetto : Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list Data : Thu, 4 Feb 2010 01:06:24 -0800 (PST) > If you check the CDC records. HIV aids is the single > leading cause of death for people 18 to 45. Second on the > list is Automobile accidents. the third leading cause is > suicide. deaths from firearms including suicides doesn't > even make the top 20. the most common object for murder is > blunt objects like hammers, pipes,rocks etc. if you do a > deep search in the CDC you will find death by asteroid as > being in the top 5 of possible near extinction events. The > information keeps changing each time things are updated. > I know a lot of people find firearms disturbing but > they are only a tool. Guns don't kill people, its the > person pulling the trigger. I hunt using rifles and > pistols. I support the NRA, I have been in both the > military and Law enforcement and have been a small arms > trainer for SRT MOUT operations as well as an SRT team > leader. >Firearms can be fun and exciting, punching holes in > targets over 1000 meters is a challenge. Try hitting the > bottom of a loaded shotgun shell at distances over 500 > meters. > I find getting into my truck every day a lot more > dangerous than any gun I own. Most suicides are done with > a piece of rope. should we control rope? >Enough said, I think it is time to just agree that we > disagree. and move on to other topics. > Have a great day > Steve > M come Meteorite Meteoriti i...@mcomemeteorite.it http://www.mcomemeteorite.it http://www.mcomemeteorite.org Mindat Gallery http://www.mindat.org/gallery-5018.html ChinellatoPhoto Servizi Fotografici http://www.chinellatophoto.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list
If you check the CDC records. HIV aids is the single leading cause of death for people 18 to 45. Second on the list is Automobile accidents. the third leading cause is suicide. deaths from firearms including suicides doesn't even make the top 20. the most common object for murder is blunt objects like hammers, pipes,rocks etc. if you do a deep search in the CDC you will find death by asteroid as being in the top 5 of possible near extinction events. The information keeps changing each time things are updated. I know a lot of people find firearms disturbing but they are only a tool. Guns don't kill people, its the person pulling the trigger. I hunt using rifles and pistols. I support the NRA, I have been in both the military and Law enforcement and have been a small arms trainer for SRT MOUT operations as well as an SRT team leader. Firearms can be fun and exciting, punching holes in targets over 1000 meters is a challenge. Try hitting the bottom of a loaded shotgun shell at distances over 500 meters. I find getting into my truck every day a lot more dangerous than any gun I own. Most suicides are done with a piece of rope. should we control rope? Enough said, I think it is time to just agree that we disagree. and move on to other topics. Have a great day Steve --- On Thu, 2/4/10, Jason Utas wrote: > From: Jason Utas > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list > To: "Erik Fisler" , "Meteorite-list" > > Date: Thursday, February 4, 2010, 8:08 AM > Erik, All, > > > Jason if you want to twist and distort things than buy > silly putty. > > If I said anything untrue, by all means call me out on > it. But using > blanket statements like "you twist things" is a > substanceless and > ultimately meaningless thing to do; I can call you an > idiot, but if I > say only that, well, someone who values my opinion might > think you an > idiot, but in the end, I haven't really said anything > relevant or > meaningful. > > I merely pointed out that many of the arguments that Robert > used were > flawed. If disagreeing with someone, pointing out the > flaws in their > arguments, and then making a few of my own is "twisting > and > distorting" things, then...well, you're going to have a > hell of a time > getting along with people with whom you disagree, because > even if they > like discussing such things, you'll just piss them off with > your trite > comments. > > >Works great for holding meteorites for photographs or > display. I recommend clay more but then you wouldn't be > able to twist >and distort it as easily. Your choice > will have to depend on how much of a challenge you want. > Just make sure it doesn't slip >into the cracks in the > meteorite as it will be hard to clean out! > > Again, you're not even addressing what I said, but merely > using > blanket statements aimed at insulting me. > This isn't a good way to go about a counter-argument, > because you're > merely attacking my credibility, presumably because you > have no good > rebuttal. In any sort of a formal debate, you'd lose > a lot of points > for this. > > > Gun crimes will decrease if fire arms are made illegal > but also if the psycho gunman is out gunned that he won't > initiate a massacre. > > Hardly. If you look at all of the more infamous > "rampages" in the > past, practically none were stopped by civilian > gunmen. It was always > police action that took care of the issue in the end - or > the shooter, > who turned the gun on his or herself. > > >Iv'e never heard of a massacre at a gun show, or in a > police head quarters where there were groups of armed > persons... Why is that Jason? > > Well, there are a few problems with this train of thought > - > 1) most massacres occur in places and claim the lives of > people who > were close to the killer - namely because they felt wronged > by certain > people close to them, etc. > 2) thus there are a high number of school shootings, > university > shootings, office shootings, etc. > 3) unless someone had a problem with gun shows, a police > station, or a > number of people at either venue, and was willing to lay > their life on > the line to kill the folks there, the person's not going to > do it > 4) along those lines I think it would be unlikely for > someone to stage > a shooting at a gun show because, while it's a political > issue, gun > control is precisely that - it ties less into morals and > more into > politics - unlike abortion, gay marriage, etc. > 5) similarly, while many people have a pro
Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list
ly >people who buy illegal guns will have guns and >people will be defenseless. Most people are "defenseless" right now anyways. And guess what -- those people are less likely to be shat than you, a gun owner, are: http://www.guninformation.org/ "Self defense is not a good argument against gun control since those who own firearms are actually more likely to be victims of homicide. Two studies published in The New England Journal of Medicine revealed that keeping a gun in the home increases the risk of both suicide and homicide. Keeping a gun in the home makes it 2.7 times more likely that someone will be a victim of homicide in your home (in almost all cases the victim is either related to or intimately acquainted with the murderer) (source) and 4.8 times more likely that someone will commit suicide (source). Guns make it more likely that a suicide attempt will be successful than if other means were used such as sleeping pills." And the fact remains that your chances of dying in an armed robbery are higher if you own a gun. Your logic is simply off on this one. > If we urge citizens to carry fire arms, >accidents involving guns will > increase. > I think it's best to keep it the way it is: if you want to own one, do, if > you don't, don't. > Govern your safety or depend on someone else too. The freedom of choice. By all means; I'm not trying to take your right away. It just pisses me off when people on the list go and make childish statements like the photos that have been posted - not to mention the fact that they keep posting their points of view and then saying "but this shouldn't be on the list, so don't reply on here." I agree; this shouldn't be on the list. I stopped replying to this a while ago, but recent posts have just annoyed me to the point of actually speaking out again. If you want to stop the posts, stop posting. Jesus. > Gun owner are violent and those who don't own guns are neurotic. Right? > Wrong... No one said that. To quote someone who messaged me privately, - "You make some good points. What people don't understand is that the 2nd Amendment was not written with the intention of granting us the right to run around, acting like complete idiots with a total lack of maturity and responsibility. What amazes me is that, at least here X, anyone can go to a gun store and purchase a firearm WITHOUT being certified in gun safety and handling. If I would see an "Average Joe" (..and I never have) walking down the street here in X, dressed in novelty camo pants with a gun on his belt... that would tend to make me a little nervous. Why? Because I wouldn't know what kind of formal training he has, what his intentions are, or whether or not he is mentally fit to do so. All of these people, particularly in "the country", who strut around with a gun on their waist just "because I can" really do tend to piss me off. I'd like to see them try that in the inner city - they wouldn't last 10 minutes before getting shot from behind and robbed of their gun and valuables. There was actually a "gun rights" demonstration here not too long ago - all of these "cool" hicks and rednecks (stereotype? maybe, maybe not) gathered, some dressed in fake camo or dark "SWAT" style pants, wishing they were an actual figure of authority, someone important - someone who I actually have deep respect for; Police officers. Soldiers. Anyone whose profession and dedication is to protect and serve with their extensive training and valor. I am comfortable around them. If some of these people could witness (first hand), at least once, the destruction that even a single gunshot can have on the human body... perhaps they would have more respect for the power to which they behold." - Pretty much sums up my point of view. Guns have a purpose. *You* don't need them for that purpose, and they're for all intensive purposes actually making the odds higher that you'll die from a gun, whether it's yours or someone else's. That's where everything you say falls apart; you keep insisting they're good tools for self defense when studies show that you're actually at a greater risk for having one. Go figure. >The topic is elegant, simple and complex at the same time. Much like the >structure of each chondrule. No view is right or >wrong, only the delivery of >the view. Just...wow. All I've seen so far is a bunch of folks who are in denial about the fact that the toys they like to play with are used for murder, and that having them around makes its happening all the more likely. Hardly elegant or simple. Jason > [Erik] > > >> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 21:13:44 -0800 >> From: meteorite...@gmail.com >> To:
Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list
Jason, Splendid examples of naivety and bombasity (yeah, I know it's not a word). I sincerely hope you never find yourself in a position that reminds you how foolish what you said here, is. > Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 21:13:44 -0800 > From: meteorite...@gmail.com > To: ironfromthesky@gmail.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list > > Robert, All, > > >> I spent three years training at the finest firearms institution on the >> planet learning about every aspect of the industry, and even designing >> and manufacturing my own firearms models, I am an expert in the field, >> and I assure you they are not "killing tools" and "assault rifles" >> when they leave the factory. > > > Well, they're not toys and they're not meant to defend against > anything - at least, anything other than someone else with a gun. And > they're not used for anything else, really...though I suppose you > could use one as a hammer if the situation called for it. > So, killing tools. Yeah. You don't eat off them, you don't really do > anything constructive with themthey kill. > That's about it. > > Hell, by your logic, a hammer isn't a building tool. It'swell, if > I look at what you write below, it's just a piece of metal and > wood/plastic. And a car isn't a transportation vehicle - > it'smetal, plastic, glass, and rubber. > > Kind of a crappy semantics argument. > > >> They are pieces of metal and plastic, > > > Piece of metal and plastic that, with the push of a button, can end > someone's life. Granted, as you say, a machete would also suffice, > but I don't think we had too many machete deaths here in the US last > year, though there are a great many machetes. You're simply ignoring > the fact that guns make it easier to kill someone, and that's a fact > that's clearly reflected in crime statistics. > > >> People do the killing, guns are inanimate objects. > > > Right, but standing in front of someone, squeezing your finger, and > shouting "bang!" is hardly going to get the job done. Of course, > knives/machetes would also suffice, but, I'll say it again: it's > easier to pull a trigger at someone from ten feet away than it is to > slide a knife between their ribs while they try to fight you off. > Of course, if you're just using the "inanimate object" line, we can > throw all sorts of things into the mix - nuclear bombs, grenades, > ballistic missiles, etc. All inanimate. You seem to be saying that > the fact that they're inanimate means that people should be allowed to > have them because they cause no innate harm. Following that logic, > you should have no problem with everyone having their own backyard > nuke. But for some reason that seems ridiculous...I don't understand > it. Somehow a great many people have decided that owning devices > whose sole purpose is to kill is actually an innocent endeavor -- to a > point. When the objects' ability to kill more than ~10-20 people with > the push of a button, we stop and say that it's too dangerous. > Apparently guns aren't *quite* dangerous enough. > It doesn't make any sense. > And while the suggestion that everyone have their own nuke may seem > preposterous on the surface, it has some merit - they, too, are > inanimate objects whose sole purpose is to kill. For some reason we > as a population have decided that there's some arbitrary limit to the > amount of killing power we want to leave in the hands of the average > citizen; assault rifles, yes, and maybe even the odd grenade, but > beyond that...it's prohibited. >>From an absolute standpoint, this makes no sense. If you're not going > to need to shoot someone or something, you shouldn't have a gun. We > give them to soldiers for a reason. And there's a reason we don't > give the average soldier a nuke. > But soldiers are trained, generally don't carry their guns in public > (at least in the US), and are, for the most part, psychologically > screened. > Though the odd nut does get through. > Of course, what you're really saying is that guns are merely innocent > bystanders to crimes in which they're used. > > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572305,00.html > > So this is where I'll post a link - and I know it happens more often > in schools than in army bases, but, it still illustrates a point. > This one man, with the aid of a gun, was able to kill 12 people and > injure 31 others. While he
Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list
Jason if you want to twist and distort things than buy silly putty. Works great for holding meteorites for photographs or display. I recommend clay more but then you wouldn't be able to twist and distort it as easily. Your choice will have to depend on how much of a challenge you want. Just make sure it doesn't slip into the cracks in the meteorite as it will be hard to clean out! Gun crimes will decrease if fire arms are made illegal but also if the psycho gunman is out gunned that he won't initiate a massacre. Iv'e never heard of a massacre at a gun show, or in a police head quarters where there were groups of armed persons... Why is that Jason? Your debate can be reversed as well. If we take away weapons, gun crimes will decrease. Also, If we urge and train citizens to carry fire arms, gun crimes will decrease. We can find exceptions to either case. If we take away guns, then only people who buy illegal guns will have guns and people will be defenseless. If we urge citizens to carry fire arms, accidents involving guns will increase. I think it's best to keep it the way it is: if you want to own one, do, if you don't, don't. Govern your safety or depend on someone else too. The freedom of choice. Gun owner are violent and those who don't own guns are neurotic. Right? Wrong... The topic is elegant, simple and complex at the same time. Much like the structure of each chondrule. No view is right or wrong, only the delivery of the view. [Erik] > Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 21:13:44 -0800 > From: meteorite...@gmail.com > To: ironfromthesky@gmail.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list > > Robert, All, > > >> I spent three years training at the finest firearms institution on the >> planet learning about every aspect of the industry, and even designing >> and manufacturing my own firearms models, I am an expert in the field, >> and I assure you they are not "killing tools" and "assault rifles" >> when they leave the factory. > > > Well, they're not toys and they're not meant to defend against > anything - at least, anything other than someone else with a gun. And > they're not used for anything else, really...though I suppose you > could use one as a hammer if the situation called for it. > So, killing tools. Yeah. You don't eat off them, you don't really do > anything constructive with themthey kill. > That's about it. > > Hell, by your logic, a hammer isn't a building tool. It'swell, if > I look at what you write below, it's just a piece of metal and > wood/plastic. And a car isn't a transportation vehicle - > it'smetal, plastic, glass, and rubber. > > Kind of a crappy semantics argument. > > >> They are pieces of metal and plastic, > > > Piece of metal and plastic that, with the push of a button, can end > someone's life. Granted, as you say, a machete would also suffice, > but I don't think we had too many machete deaths here in the US last > year, though there are a great many machetes. You're simply ignoring > the fact that guns make it easier to kill someone, and that's a fact > that's clearly reflected in crime statistics. > > >> People do the killing, guns are inanimate objects. > > > Right, but standing in front of someone, squeezing your finger, and > shouting "bang!" is hardly going to get the job done. Of course, > knives/machetes would also suffice, but, I'll say it again: it's > easier to pull a trigger at someone from ten feet away than it is to > slide a knife between their ribs while they try to fight you off. > Of course, if you're just using the "inanimate object" line, we can > throw all sorts of things into the mix - nuclear bombs, grenades, > ballistic missiles, etc. All inanimate. You seem to be saying that > the fact that they're inanimate means that people should be allowed to > have them because they cause no innate harm. Following that logic, > you should have no problem with everyone having their own backyard > nuke. But for some reason that seems ridiculous...I don't understand > it. Somehow a great many people have decided that owning devices > whose sole purpose is to kill is actually an innocent endeavor -- to a > point. When the objects' ability to kill more than ~10-20 people with > the push of a button, we stop and say that it's too dangerous. > Apparently guns aren't *quite* dangerous enough. > It doesn't make any sense. > And while the suggestion that everyone have their own nuke may seem > preposterou
Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list
Robert, All, > I spent three years training at the finest firearms institution on the > planet learning about every aspect of the industry, and even designing > and manufacturing my own firearms models, I am an expert in the field, > and I assure you they are not "killing tools" and "assault rifles" > when they leave the factory. Well, they're not toys and they're not meant to defend against anything - at least, anything other than someone else with a gun. And they're not used for anything else, really...though I suppose you could use one as a hammer if the situation called for it. So, killing tools. Yeah. You don't eat off them, you don't really do anything constructive with themthey kill. That's about it. Hell, by your logic, a hammer isn't a building tool. It'swell, if I look at what you write below, it's just a piece of metal and wood/plastic. And a car isn't a transportation vehicle - it'smetal, plastic, glass, and rubber. Kind of a crappy semantics argument. > They are pieces of metal and plastic, Piece of metal and plastic that, with the push of a button, can end someone's life. Granted, as you say, a machete would also suffice, but I don't think we had too many machete deaths here in the US last year, though there are a great many machetes. You're simply ignoring the fact that guns make it easier to kill someone, and that's a fact that's clearly reflected in crime statistics. > People do the killing, guns are inanimate objects. Right, but standing in front of someone, squeezing your finger, and shouting "bang!" is hardly going to get the job done. Of course, knives/machetes would also suffice, but, I'll say it again: it's easier to pull a trigger at someone from ten feet away than it is to slide a knife between their ribs while they try to fight you off. Of course, if you're just using the "inanimate object" line, we can throw all sorts of things into the mix - nuclear bombs, grenades, ballistic missiles, etc. All inanimate. You seem to be saying that the fact that they're inanimate means that people should be allowed to have them because they cause no innate harm. Following that logic, you should have no problem with everyone having their own backyard nuke. But for some reason that seems ridiculous...I don't understand it. Somehow a great many people have decided that owning devices whose sole purpose is to kill is actually an innocent endeavor -- to a point. When the objects' ability to kill more than ~10-20 people with the push of a button, we stop and say that it's too dangerous. Apparently guns aren't *quite* dangerous enough. It doesn't make any sense. And while the suggestion that everyone have their own nuke may seem preposterous on the surface, it has some merit - they, too, are inanimate objects whose sole purpose is to kill. For some reason we as a population have decided that there's some arbitrary limit to the amount of killing power we want to leave in the hands of the average citizen; assault rifles, yes, and maybe even the odd grenade, but beyond that...it's prohibited. >From an absolute standpoint, this makes no sense. If you're not going to need to shoot someone or something, you shouldn't have a gun. We give them to soldiers for a reason. And there's a reason we don't give the average soldier a nuke. But soldiers are trained, generally don't carry their guns in public (at least in the US), and are, for the most part, psychologically screened. Though the odd nut does get through. Of course, what you're really saying is that guns are merely innocent bystanders to crimes in which they're used. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572305,00.html So this is where I'll post a link - and I know it happens more often in schools than in army bases, but, it still illustrates a point. This one man, with the aid of a gun, was able to kill 12 people and injure 31 others. While he may have been able to do as much with a machete or a knife...I doubt it. At the very least, you can run away from a man with a knife. It's hard to outrun a bullet. > So Mr. G, I have > been involved with firearms my entire life, ask my friends if they > think I am a morbid person. Anything but - but I'd have to say that you value the thrill of owning a weapon more than you value the increased risk of your being murdered in this country because of them. And that's fine, but you're going to have to understand that some people here disagree with you. > You say we should not offend our European > friends with our rights and traditions? Well, using the word "right" here introduces a great deal of ambiguity. You could be referring to a legal or moral right, which are very different from each other. One suggests that we're all entitled to own guns, and the other suggests that American law dictates that we can own guns, regardless of whether it is "right" or "wrong." One is indisputable, and the other is highly questionable. Of course, justifying something by saying
[meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list
I spent three years training at the finest firearms institution on the planet learning about every aspect of the industry, and even designing and manufacturing my own firearms models, I am an expert in the field, and I assure you they are not "killing tools" and "assault rifles" when they leave the factory. They are pieces of metal and plastic, People do the killing, guns are inanimate objects. So Mr. G, I have been involved with firearms my entire life, ask my friends if they think I am a morbid person. You say we should not offend our European friends with our rights and traditions? Growing up I spent my summers in Africa, and I saw things that offended my that are far to morbid to mention here, I did not offend them by sharing my thoughts of these customs, I looked the other way and left, if that pic offends you push delete. I noticed a post that mentioned a statistic from the FBI website, 9,369 firearms related murders in the U.S. in 2002, another statistic to compare this to is the great genocide in Rwanda, 800,000 murdered with machete's. I assure you, in the right hands some sharp Chinga, or Seymchan slices that are for sale in several rooms in Tucson could dispatch one's life just as fast as a firearm. Peter Davidson, those who know me would probably agree that I am someone that could be pigeon holed into some Hick-Redneck category, Peter, I am not offended by your prejudice, I am proud of my heritage growing up on farms and ranches, oh yeah, I am a NRA life member too. I trust that all of you that are so offended by this pic do not subscribe to cable, or satellite television services, nor do you attend movies with "morbid guns" in them. Grow up, just click delete, and spend this much time finding some useful input for the METEORITE LIST. Maybe I will post a pic of my cats high up on one of my collection pieces so the PETA people can have there turn. Robert Ward __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
