Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term (this poor poor horse)
How do you come up with this? I was at the New Orleans house 40 hours after t fell. While it was not seen to hit the house, the homeowner had gone to work at 7 am and returned home at 5 pm finding his house full of rocks and destruction. The neighbors reported huge crashing noise like a car accident at ~4 pm I think, and several airline pilots reported a fireball. I am pretty sure that the fact that the meteorite went through 3 floors that day That the noncom had enough evidence to know that the New Orleans meteorite fell on that date between the hours of 7 am and 5 pm. How can you guys take the simplest thing like fall and find and yap about it for days? Perhaps some people need to try knitting for a hobby, seems less controversial. Michael Farmer Sent from my iPhone On Jun 14, 2012, at 9:09 PM, Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com wrote: Hi John and List, Good question. Let me attempt to answer. If I fail, perhaps Capt. Blood will chime in or another hammerhead will jump to the rescue. All hammers are falls, because if a hammer falls and nobody is around to notice it, it will never be discoveredand is therefore not a hammer or a fall. Let me put it this way - New Orleans is a recent example of an unwitnessed hammer that is considered a fall. When the New Orleans meteorite fell, penetrated the house and left a path of minor destruction (writing desk, etc), nobody was home. The owners were out and did not come home to find the cosmic damage until later. In this particular case, nobody directly witnessed the fall or the damage being done. If I recall correctly, there were no indirect witnesses as well - no radar track, no fireball video, no other witnesses on the ground. The find was determined to be a fall based on - the freshness of the material found, the testimony of the homeowners, and the obvious damage caused by this material. Met Bull states that the New Orleans meteorite is a fall, so it is therefore a observed fall or witnessed fall in officially-approved nomenclature and accepted use amongst the majority of collectors and dealers. Additionally, some hammerheads may refer to it as a hammer fall. Also of note, New Orleans is a single stone fall, therefore the New Orleans meteorite is a hammer stone because it struck a house and manmade objects. Under different circumstances, the New Orleans meteorite may have gone unnoticed and unreported. The lower 9th Ward of New Orleans is desolate today, as a result of lingering damage from hurricane Katrina. Large stretches of homes and businesses are vacant and falling into disrepair. There are squatters, homeless persons, gang elements, and other transients that reside in the area. The same is true for other areas of New Orleans to varying degrees. If the stone had fallen in one of these houses, with no first-hand witnesses, it is likely to lay undiscovered and be carted off to the landfill when the city finally bulldozes the property. In such a case, the fall and damage were never noticed, it is never reported, no material is ever recovered, and the meteorite is never officially recognized or named. Also keep in mind, the criteria for officially approving a meteorite as a fall has changed to some degree over the years. Or could say, the criteria was more rigidly enforced in some publications than others. There are several cases of witnessed falls where the witness reports are several years or more removed from recovery of specimens on the ground. Some fall dates have uncertain dates or just a date range (summer of 18xx, etc). Some finds could be regarded as falls and there is some debate or uncertainty around the circumstances (or find location) that resulted in a fall classification being rejected. So, what I am getting at in a rambling fashion is this - if it is a hammer in the true and accepted sense, then it could be called a hammer fall or witnessed fall or observed fall or just a fall - depending on whether or not the term is being used officially or just casually. Best regards, MikeG PS - I think this horse is now officially pulverized beyond recognition. To continue this discussion line any further will require someone to acquire a new horse for consideration and possible flogging. -- --- Galactic Stone Ironworks - MikeG Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 --- On 6/14/12, John Hendry p...@pict.co.uk wrote: Any hammer finds recorded? i.e. there's a big stone in the attic and a hole in the roof, but nobody saw it fall. John __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7221 (20120614) __ The message was
Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term
- Original Message - From: cdtuc...@cox.net To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de; MikeG meteoritem...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term Regine, MikeG, I hate to beat a dead horse but, There actually could be such a thing as a Hammer Fall. Take Carancas for example; This fall was not only observed but, it hit a man made water well and killed a couple of animals while excavating a crater. This fall is generally accepted as a Hammer Fall because we believe it was one huge stone that crashed and exploded. So, then the question is; Is this a hammer stone as well? Of coarse it is. That is IF it was indeed caused by one single stone that exploded on impact. This is a fact that is in dispute amongst Scientists. There may have been a swarm of stones that hit at once. We do have evidence of this in stones that were found that were nearly fully fusion crusted. Had it been just one single stone where did the nearly fully crusted stones come from? This lends doubt that in fact all of the stones are Hammer Stones. However, from a sales standpoint. Having one of these ultra rare fully crusted stones would not be such a bad thing to have. I would think they would be far more rare and therefore far more valuable to both the collector (museum) or Scientist for the simple reason of aesthetics and that it does make for an interesting argument about how many stones did fall. As for the use of the word Michael Blood coined Hammer. He could just of easily have used any number of other words to describe this end result. Swatter, clapper, striker or anything else one does with an object in his had while hitting something. The other really funny term is the use of the word Fall at all. I mean try to explain that to a newby? I mean after all, Aren't all meteorites Falls in the true sense of the word. How else could they have gotten here? So, the use of this term necessitates an explanation. You have to explain that not all meteorites are falls. A newby would look at you like you are nuts. The word fresh fall would make more sense but, most of the time the Fresh is left out. Even when a stone is called a fresh Fall science can only determine the time it fell within years not hour or minutes so even then... If you find a stone. How do you really know when it fell. You did find a fall but was it fresh? Or does it just look fresh? Too Funny. Best, Carl meteoritemax -- Cheers Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de wrote: Well, I'm referring to an overall suspicious odour when it comes to hammer falls on sales pages. It is so imprecise - as many other things related to it. What comes to my mind right now is that I downloaded a small jpg once from a website on hammers when I started getting interested in the historic side of meteorites. I was new to the subject and took the picture as a genuine photograph of a man from the New Concord area sitting on a dead colt which seemed to be collateral damage. I researched my arse off only to find out that the photo is not related and the incident most likely never happened. The unreliability of the New Concord horse kill has been discussed several times on the list in the meantime, yet the picture is still on the website. I hear you say these things are completely unrelated, and perhaps they are. And in the end this might all be peanuts even. Actually, right now, I ask myself what the heck I'm doing here. I actually enjoy doing the detective work on which account is true and which is doubtful! But why anyone actively wants to play a part in the confusion other than to cash in is a mystery to me. Enough said, Best wishes, Regine Von: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com An: Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de CC: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Gesendet: 20:20 Dienstag, 12.Juni 2012 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term Hi Regine, I can't argue that point. I can only say that we (as meteorite buffs) should do our best to educate the newbies, or make resources available that will educate the newbies. I think many of us do that. I also think we could do better if we really tried. But I don't think everyone who uses the term hammer fall is engaging in marketing or trying to mislead people for financial gain. Maybe some dealers do that. If they do, I don't agree with that and they should stop. But the term hammer fall probably isn't going away, and if it does, it will be replaced by another term that means the same thing. And we can't excuse people for making rash purchases. The buyer does bear some responsibility to educate themselves before spending money on a meteorite (or anything). I guess this gets back to some of the most fundamental lessons of collecting things. Do one's homework. Buyer beware. Know your seller. Check references (or feedback). :) Best
Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term
Carl, I agree, Fall and Find are ridiculous terms. I'm get tired of explaining the difference to non-meteorite people. The confusion could be cleared up by adding the modifying adjective Observed to the word Fall. Since all meteorites are both Falls and Finds (to the uninitiated), why not just call them Observed Falls and Falls? Makes sense to me! Phil Whitmer Joshua Tree Earth Space Museum (Sorry for the double post, I accidentally hit send) - Original Message - From: cdtuc...@cox.net To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de; MikeG meteoritem...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term Regine, MikeG, I hate to beat a dead horse but, There actually could be such a thing as a Hammer Fall. Take Carancas for example; This fall was not only observed but, it hit a man made water well and killed a couple of animals while excavating a crater. This fall is generally accepted as a Hammer Fall because we believe it was one huge stone that crashed and exploded. So, then the question is; Is this a hammer stone as well? Of coarse it is. That is IF it was indeed caused by one single stone that exploded on impact. This is a fact that is in dispute amongst Scientists. There may have been a swarm of stones that hit at once. We do have evidence of this in stones that were found that were nearly fully fusion crusted. Had it been just one single stone where did the nearly fully crusted stones come from? This lends doubt that in fact all of the stones are Hammer Stones. However, from a sales standpoint. Having one of these ultra rare fully crusted stones would not be such a bad thing to have. I would think they would be far more rare and therefore far more valuable to both the collector (museum) or Scientist for the simple reason of aesthetics and that it does make for an interesting argument about how many stones did fall. As for the use of the word Michael Blood coined Hammer. He could just of easily have used any number of other words to describe this end result. Swatter, clapper, striker or anything else one does with an object in his had while hitting something. The other really funny term is the use of the word Fall at all. I mean try to explain that to a newby? I mean after all, Aren't all meteorites Falls in the true sense of the word. How else could they have gotten here? So, the use of this term necessitates an explanation. You have to explain that not all meteorites are falls. A newby would look at you like you are nuts. The word fresh fall would make more sense but, most of the time the Fresh is left out. Even when a stone is called a fresh Fall science can only determine the time it fell within years not hour or minutes so even then... If you find a stone. How do you really know when it fell. You did find a fall but was it fresh? Or does it just look fresh? Too Funny. Best, Carl meteoritemax -- Cheers Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de wrote: Well, I'm referring to an overall suspicious odour when it comes to hammer falls on sales pages. It is so imprecise - as many other things related to it. What comes to my mind right now is that I downloaded a small jpg once from a website on hammers when I started getting interested in the historic side of meteorites. I was new to the subject and took the picture as a genuine photograph of a man from the New Concord area sitting on a dead colt which seemed to be collateral damage. I researched my arse off only to find out that the photo is not related and the incident most likely never happened. The unreliability of the New Concord horse kill has been discussed several times on the list in the meantime, yet the picture is still on the website. I hear you say these things are completely unrelated, and perhaps they are. And in the end this might all be peanuts even. Actually, right now, I ask myself what the heck I'm doing here. I actually enjoy doing the detective work on which account is true and which is doubtful! But why anyone actively wants to play a part in the confusion other than to cash in is a mystery to me. Enough said, Best wishes, Regine Von: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com An: Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de CC: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Gesendet: 20:20 Dienstag, 12.Juni 2012 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term Hi Regine, I can't argue that point. I can only say that we (as meteorite buffs) should do our best to educate the newbies, or make resources available that will educate the newbies. I think many of us do that. I also think we could do better if we really tried. But I don't think everyone who uses the term hammer fall is engaging in marketing or trying to mislead people for financial gain. Maybe some dealers do that. If they do, I don't agree with that and they should stop. But the term hammer
Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term
Any hammer finds recorded? i.e. there's a big stone in the attic and a hole in the roof, but nobody saw it fall. John __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7221 (20120614) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term (this poor poor horse)
Hi John and List, Good question. Let me attempt to answer. If I fail, perhaps Capt. Blood will chime in or another hammerhead will jump to the rescue. All hammers are falls, because if a hammer falls and nobody is around to notice it, it will never be discoveredand is therefore not a hammer or a fall. Let me put it this way - New Orleans is a recent example of an unwitnessed hammer that is considered a fall. When the New Orleans meteorite fell, penetrated the house and left a path of minor destruction (writing desk, etc), nobody was home. The owners were out and did not come home to find the cosmic damage until later. In this particular case, nobody directly witnessed the fall or the damage being done. If I recall correctly, there were no indirect witnesses as well - no radar track, no fireball video, no other witnesses on the ground. The find was determined to be a fall based on - the freshness of the material found, the testimony of the homeowners, and the obvious damage caused by this material. Met Bull states that the New Orleans meteorite is a fall, so it is therefore a observed fall or witnessed fall in officially-approved nomenclature and accepted use amongst the majority of collectors and dealers. Additionally, some hammerheads may refer to it as a hammer fall. Also of note, New Orleans is a single stone fall, therefore the New Orleans meteorite is a hammer stone because it struck a house and manmade objects. Under different circumstances, the New Orleans meteorite may have gone unnoticed and unreported. The lower 9th Ward of New Orleans is desolate today, as a result of lingering damage from hurricane Katrina. Large stretches of homes and businesses are vacant and falling into disrepair. There are squatters, homeless persons, gang elements, and other transients that reside in the area. The same is true for other areas of New Orleans to varying degrees. If the stone had fallen in one of these houses, with no first-hand witnesses, it is likely to lay undiscovered and be carted off to the landfill when the city finally bulldozes the property. In such a case, the fall and damage were never noticed, it is never reported, no material is ever recovered, and the meteorite is never officially recognized or named. Also keep in mind, the criteria for officially approving a meteorite as a fall has changed to some degree over the years. Or could say, the criteria was more rigidly enforced in some publications than others. There are several cases of witnessed falls where the witness reports are several years or more removed from recovery of specimens on the ground. Some fall dates have uncertain dates or just a date range (summer of 18xx, etc). Some finds could be regarded as falls and there is some debate or uncertainty around the circumstances (or find location) that resulted in a fall classification being rejected. So, what I am getting at in a rambling fashion is this - if it is a hammer in the true and accepted sense, then it could be called a hammer fall or witnessed fall or observed fall or just a fall - depending on whether or not the term is being used officially or just casually. Best regards, MikeG PS - I think this horse is now officially pulverized beyond recognition. To continue this discussion line any further will require someone to acquire a new horse for consideration and possible flogging. -- --- Galactic Stone Ironworks - MikeG Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 --- On 6/14/12, John Hendry p...@pict.co.uk wrote: Any hammer finds recorded? i.e. there's a big stone in the attic and a hole in the roof, but nobody saw it fall. John __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7221 (20120614) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term (this poor poor horse)
Michael, great expositon, and a good example of what I was thinking about. However I am still failing to parse the language used to square with what would be the normally understood meaning in the english language. If I may quote your analysis here and there. Let me put it this way - New Orleans is a recent example of an unwitnessed hammer that is considered a fall. Got it. In this particular case, nobody directly witnessed the fall or the damage being done. Understood. if it is a hammer in the true and accepted sense, then it could be called a hammer fall or witnessed fall or observed fall or just a fall Having cognitive issues at this juncture. If it isn't witnessed, but it is considered a 'hammer fall', then how can 'hammer falls', in their entirity, be a subset of witnessed or observed falls. Surely the definition of fall must therefore include unobserved meteorite arrivals (i.e. unobserved hammer falls).You cannot have a witnessed unwitnessed event. Well not in my book anyway. Then again I am not Orwell. Personally, I think it's bad nomenclature, but I can easily imagine how this sort of stuff arises. A few weeks ago after reading some of the many Sutters Mill accounts from the field I went for an idle stroll along a deserted track in rural Ukraine. I noticed in the distance some semilustrous subspherical objects, and for a while on my approach my imagination was giving rise to mild tachycardia. On intimate inspection I found some nicely dimpled droppings from a deer or something. After recovery from this crushing disappointment, I thought it would be appropriate to propose a new subclass of Leaverite called 'Meteorshite'. However thinking on this now, all meteorshites would not necessarily be leaverites. A bedouin coming across the wrong sort of Camel Donga (ok mixing continents here but give me some latitude please), might not be thinking leaverite, he might be thinking campfire for barbeque. Regards, John - Original Message - From: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com To: John Hendry p...@pict.co.uk Cc: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 10:09 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term (this poor poor horse) Hi John and List, Good question. Let me attempt to answer. If I fail, perhaps Capt. Blood will chime in or another hammerhead will jump to the rescue. All hammers are falls, because if a hammer falls and nobody is around to notice it, it will never be discoveredand is therefore not a hammer or a fall. Let me put it this way - New Orleans is a recent example of an unwitnessed hammer that is considered a fall. When the New Orleans meteorite fell, penetrated the house and left a path of minor destruction (writing desk, etc), nobody was home. The owners were out and did not come home to find the cosmic damage until later. In this particular case, nobody directly witnessed the fall or the damage being done. If I recall correctly, there were no indirect witnesses as well - no radar track, no fireball video, no other witnesses on the ground. The find was determined to be a fall based on - the freshness of the material found, the testimony of the homeowners, and the obvious damage caused by this material. Met Bull states that the New Orleans meteorite is a fall, so it is therefore a observed fall or witnessed fall in officially-approved nomenclature and accepted use amongst the majority of collectors and dealers. Additionally, some hammerheads may refer to it as a hammer fall. Also of note, New Orleans is a single stone fall, therefore the New Orleans meteorite is a hammer stone because it struck a house and manmade objects. Under different circumstances, the New Orleans meteorite may have gone unnoticed and unreported. The lower 9th Ward of New Orleans is desolate today, as a result of lingering damage from hurricane Katrina. Large stretches of homes and businesses are vacant and falling into disrepair. There are squatters, homeless persons, gang elements, and other transients that reside in the area. The same is true for other areas of New Orleans to varying degrees. If the stone had fallen in one of these houses, with no first-hand witnesses, it is likely to lay undiscovered and be carted off to the landfill when the city finally bulldozes the property. In such a case, the fall and damage were never noticed, it is never reported, no material is ever recovered, and the meteorite is never officially recognized or named. Also keep in mind, the criteria for officially approving a meteorite as a fall has changed to some degree over the years. Or could say, the criteria was more rigidly enforced in some publications than others. There are several cases of witnessed falls where the witness reports are several years or more removed from recovery of specimens on the ground. Some fall dates have uncertain dates or just a date range (summer of 18xx, etc). Some finds could be regarded as falls
Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term (this poor poor horse)
Mercy! We can't even shoot this poor horse to put it out of its misery 'cause it wouldn't do any good - dead is dead!. 'Bout all that'd do is scare off some of the flies covering its carcass for a few moments. Ed ;-) - Original Message - From: John Hendry p...@pict.co.uk To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term (this poor poor horse) Michael, great expositon, and a good example of what I was thinking about. However I am still failing to parse the language used to square with what would be the normally understood meaning in the english language. If I may quote your analysis here and there. Let me put it this way - New Orleans is a recent example of an unwitnessed hammer that is considered a fall. Got it. In this particular case, nobody directly witnessed the fall or the damage being done. Understood. if it is a hammer in the true and accepted sense, then it could be called a hammer fall or witnessed fall or observed fall or just a fall Having cognitive issues at this juncture. If it isn't witnessed, but it is considered a 'hammer fall', then how can 'hammer falls', in their entirity, be a subset of witnessed or observed falls. Surely the definition of fall must therefore include unobserved meteorite arrivals (i.e. unobserved hammer falls).You cannot have a witnessed unwitnessed event. Well not in my book anyway. Then again I am not Orwell. Personally, I think it's bad nomenclature, but I can easily imagine how this sort of stuff arises. A few weeks ago after reading some of the many Sutters Mill accounts from the field I went for an idle stroll along a deserted track in rural Ukraine. I noticed in the distance some semilustrous subspherical objects, and for a while on my approach my imagination was giving rise to mild tachycardia. On intimate inspection I found some nicely dimpled droppings from a deer or something. After recovery from this crushing disappointment, I thought it would be appropriate to propose a new subclass of Leaverite called 'Meteorshite'. However thinking on this now, all meteorshites would not necessarily be leaverites. A bedouin coming across the wrong sort of Camel Donga (ok mixing continents here but give me some latitude please), might not be thinking leaverite, he might be thinking campfire for barbeque. Regards, John - Original Message - From: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com To: John Hendry p...@pict.co.uk Cc: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 10:09 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term (this poor poor horse) Hi John and List, Good question. Let me attempt to answer. If I fail, perhaps Capt. Blood will chime in or another hammerhead will jump to the rescue. All hammers are falls, because if a hammer falls and nobody is around to notice it, it will never be discoveredand is therefore not a hammer or a fall. Let me put it this way - New Orleans is a recent example of an unwitnessed hammer that is considered a fall. When the New Orleans meteorite fell, penetrated the house and left a path of minor destruction (writing desk, etc), nobody was home. The owners were out and did not come home to find the cosmic damage until later. In this particular case, nobody directly witnessed the fall or the damage being done. If I recall correctly, there were no indirect witnesses as well - no radar track, no fireball video, no other witnesses on the ground. The find was determined to be a fall based on - the freshness of the material found, the testimony of the homeowners, and the obvious damage caused by this material. Met Bull states that the New Orleans meteorite is a fall, so it is therefore a observed fall or witnessed fall in officially-approved nomenclature and accepted use amongst the majority of collectors and dealers. Additionally, some hammerheads may refer to it as a hammer fall. Also of note, New Orleans is a single stone fall, therefore the New Orleans meteorite is a hammer stone because it struck a house and manmade objects. Under different circumstances, the New Orleans meteorite may have gone unnoticed and unreported. The lower 9th Ward of New Orleans is desolate today, as a result of lingering damage from hurricane Katrina. Large stretches of homes and businesses are vacant and falling into disrepair. There are squatters, homeless persons, gang elements, and other transients that reside in the area. The same is true for other areas of New Orleans to varying degrees. If the stone had fallen in one of these houses, with no first-hand witnesses, it is likely to lay undiscovered and be carted off to the landfill when the city finally bulldozes the property. In such a case, the fall and damage were never noticed, it is never reported, no material is ever recovered, and the meteorite is never officially recognized or named. Also
Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term (this poor poor horse)
Hi John, Ed, and List, We are close to agreement. I always defer to the Met Bulletin when calling any meteorite a fall or hammer fall. Despite everything I said about New Orleans, it is listed in the official Met Bulletin as a fall. So I feel comfortable adding hammer fall to it. I guess a hammer find would be more rare in some ways. ;) Best regards, MikeG -- --- Galactic Stone Ironworks - MikeG Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 --- On 6/14/12, John Hendry p...@pict.co.uk wrote: Michael, great expositon, and a good example of what I was thinking about. However I am still failing to parse the language used to square with what would be the normally understood meaning in the english language. If I may quote your analysis here and there. Let me put it this way - New Orleans is a recent example of an unwitnessed hammer that is considered a fall. Got it. In this particular case, nobody directly witnessed the fall or the damage being done. Understood. if it is a hammer in the true and accepted sense, then it could be called a hammer fall or witnessed fall or observed fall or just a fall Having cognitive issues at this juncture. If it isn't witnessed, but it is considered a 'hammer fall', then how can 'hammer falls', in their entirity, be a subset of witnessed or observed falls. Surely the definition of fall must therefore include unobserved meteorite arrivals (i.e. unobserved hammer falls).You cannot have a witnessed unwitnessed event. Well not in my book anyway. Then again I am not Orwell. Personally, I think it's bad nomenclature, but I can easily imagine how this sort of stuff arises. A few weeks ago after reading some of the many Sutters Mill accounts from the field I went for an idle stroll along a deserted track in rural Ukraine. I noticed in the distance some semilustrous subspherical objects, and for a while on my approach my imagination was giving rise to mild tachycardia. On intimate inspection I found some nicely dimpled droppings from a deer or something. After recovery from this crushing disappointment, I thought it would be appropriate to propose a new subclass of Leaverite called 'Meteorshite'. However thinking on this now, all meteorshites would not necessarily be leaverites. A bedouin coming across the wrong sort of Camel Donga (ok mixing continents here but give me some latitude please), might not be thinking leaverite, he might be thinking campfire for barbeque. Regards, John - Original Message - From: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com To: John Hendry p...@pict.co.uk Cc: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 10:09 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term (this poor poor horse) Hi John and List, Good question. Let me attempt to answer. If I fail, perhaps Capt. Blood will chime in or another hammerhead will jump to the rescue. All hammers are falls, because if a hammer falls and nobody is around to notice it, it will never be discoveredand is therefore not a hammer or a fall. Let me put it this way - New Orleans is a recent example of an unwitnessed hammer that is considered a fall. When the New Orleans meteorite fell, penetrated the house and left a path of minor destruction (writing desk, etc), nobody was home. The owners were out and did not come home to find the cosmic damage until later. In this particular case, nobody directly witnessed the fall or the damage being done. If I recall correctly, there were no indirect witnesses as well - no radar track, no fireball video, no other witnesses on the ground. The find was determined to be a fall based on - the freshness of the material found, the testimony of the homeowners, and the obvious damage caused by this material. Met Bull states that the New Orleans meteorite is a fall, so it is therefore a observed fall or witnessed fall in officially-approved nomenclature and accepted use amongst the majority of collectors and dealers. Additionally, some hammerheads may refer to it as a hammer fall. Also of note, New Orleans is a single stone fall, therefore the New Orleans meteorite is a hammer stone because it struck a house and manmade objects. Under different circumstances, the New Orleans meteorite may have gone unnoticed and unreported. The lower 9th Ward of New Orleans is desolate today, as a result of lingering damage from hurricane Katrina. Large stretches of homes and businesses are vacant and falling into disrepair. There are squatters, homeless persons, gang elements, and other transients that reside in the area. The same is true for other areas of New Orleans to varying degrees. If the stone had
Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term (this poor poor horse)
Mike and all, Just thought I'd muddy the waters ;-) Walnut Hill, Maine is listed as a find but is also a hammer stone as it was found during the repair of a chicken brooding house. Don't you just love those exceptions to the rule! Cheers, Frank From: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com To: John Hendry p...@pict.co.uk Cc: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thu, June 14, 2012 12:10:05 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term (this poor poor horse) Hi John and List, Good question. Let me attempt to answer. If I fail, perhaps Capt. Blood will chime in or another hammerhead will jump to the rescue. All hammers are falls, because if a hammer falls and nobody is around to notice it, it will never be discoveredand is therefore not a hammer or a fall. Let me put it this way - New Orleans is a recent example of an unwitnessed hammer that is considered a fall. When the New Orleans meteorite fell, penetrated the house and left a path of minor destruction (writing desk, etc), nobody was home. The owners were out and did not come home to find the cosmic damage until later. In this particular case, nobody directly witnessed the fall or the damage being done. If I recall correctly, there were no indirect witnesses as well - no radar track, no fireball video, no other witnesses on the ground. The find was determined to be a fall based on - the freshness of the material found, the testimony of the homeowners, and the obvious damage caused by this material. Met Bull states that the New Orleans meteorite is a fall, so it is therefore a observed fall or witnessed fall in officially-approved nomenclature and accepted use amongst the majority of collectors and dealers. Additionally, some hammerheads may refer to it as a hammer fall. Also of note, New Orleans is a single stone fall, therefore the New Orleans meteorite is a hammer stone because it struck a house and manmade objects. Under different circumstances, the New Orleans meteorite may have gone unnoticed and unreported. The lower 9th Ward of New Orleans is desolate today, as a result of lingering damage from hurricane Katrina. Large stretches of homes and businesses are vacant and falling into disrepair. There are squatters, homeless persons, gang elements, and other transients that reside in the area. The same is true for other areas of New Orleans to varying degrees. If the stone had fallen in one of these houses, with no first-hand witnesses, it is likely to lay undiscovered and be carted off to the landfill when the city finally bulldozes the property. In such a case, the fall and damage were never noticed, it is never reported, no material is ever recovered, and the meteorite is never officially recognized or named. Also keep in mind, the criteria for officially approving a meteorite as a fall has changed to some degree over the years. Or could say, the criteria was more rigidly enforced in some publications than others. There are several cases of witnessed falls where the witness reports are several years or more removed from recovery of specimens on the ground. Some fall dates have uncertain dates or just a date range (summer of 18xx, etc). Some finds could be regarded as falls and there is some debate or uncertainty around the circumstances (or find location) that resulted in a fall classification being rejected. So, what I am getting at in a rambling fashion is this - if it is a hammer in the true and accepted sense, then it could be called a hammer fall or witnessed fall or observed fall or just a fall - depending on whether or not the term is being used officially or just casually. Best regards, MikeG PS - I think this horse is now officially pulverized beyond recognition. To continue this discussion line any further will require someone to acquire a new horse for consideration and possible flogging. -- --- Galactic Stone Ironworks - MikeG Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 --- On 6/14/12, John Hendry p...@pict.co.uk wrote: Any hammer finds recorded? i.e. there's a big stone in the attic and a hole in the roof, but nobody saw it fall. John __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7221 (20120614) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term (this poor poor horse)
Hi Mike, Welcome back from the new fall. Grab a cudgel and get a few licks in on this pile of sad horse flesh... Mike said - How do you come up with this? I was at the New Orleans house 40 hours after t fell. While it was not seen to hit the house, the homeowner had gone to work at 7 am and returned home at 5 pm finding his house full of rocks and destruction. Isn't that what I said? . Other Mike said - When the New Orleans meteorite fell, penetrated the house and left a path of minor destruction (writing desk, etc), nobody was home. The owners were out and did not come home to find the cosmic damage until later. Mike said - The neighbors reported huge crashing noise like a car accident at ~4 pm I think, and several airline pilots reported a fireball. I did not recall this information. Thanks for clarifying that. Mike said - I am pretty sure that the fact that the meteorite went through 3 floors that day That the noncom had enough evidence to know that the New Orleans meteorite fell on that date between the hours of 7 am and 5 pm. Isn't that what I said? Other Mike said - The find was determined to be a fall based on - the freshness of the material found, the testimony of the homeowners, and the obvious damage caused by this material. Thanks for paraphrasing what I said and correcting me on the independent witness info. How can you guys take the simplest thing like fall and find and yap about it for days? It's called beating a dead horse. It starts out as swatting the flies, but escalates from there. Best regards, MikeG -- --- Galactic Stone Ironworks - MikeG Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 --- On 6/14/12, Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com wrote: How do you come up with this? I was at the New Orleans house 40 hours after t fell. While it was not seen to hit the house, the homeowner had gone to work at 7 am and returned home at 5 pm finding his house full of rocks and destruction. The neighbors reported huge crashing noise like a car accident at ~4 pm I think, and several airline pilots reported a fireball. I am pretty sure that the fact that the meteorite went through 3 floors that day That the noncom had enough evidence to know that the New Orleans meteorite fell on that date between the hours of 7 am and 5 pm. How can you guys take the simplest thing like fall and find and yap about it for days? Perhaps some people need to try knitting for a hobby, seems less controversial. Michael Farmer Sent from my iPhone On Jun 14, 2012, at 9:09 PM, Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com wrote: Hi John and List, Good question. Let me attempt to answer. If I fail, perhaps Capt. Blood will chime in or another hammerhead will jump to the rescue. All hammers are falls, because if a hammer falls and nobody is around to notice it, it will never be discoveredand is therefore not a hammer or a fall. Let me put it this way - New Orleans is a recent example of an unwitnessed hammer that is considered a fall. When the New Orleans meteorite fell, penetrated the house and left a path of minor destruction (writing desk, etc), nobody was home. The owners were out and did not come home to find the cosmic damage until later. In this particular case, nobody directly witnessed the fall or the damage being done. If I recall correctly, there were no indirect witnesses as well - no radar track, no fireball video, no other witnesses on the ground. The find was determined to be a fall based on - the freshness of the material found, the testimony of the homeowners, and the obvious damage caused by this material. Met Bull states that the New Orleans meteorite is a fall, so it is therefore a observed fall or witnessed fall in officially-approved nomenclature and accepted use amongst the majority of collectors and dealers. Additionally, some hammerheads may refer to it as a hammer fall. Also of note, New Orleans is a single stone fall, therefore the New Orleans meteorite is a hammer stone because it struck a house and manmade objects. Under different circumstances, the New Orleans meteorite may have gone unnoticed and unreported. The lower 9th Ward of New Orleans is desolate today, as a result of lingering damage from hurricane Katrina. Large stretches of homes and businesses are vacant and falling into disrepair. There are squatters, homeless persons, gang elements, and other transients that reside in the area. The same is true for other areas of New Orleans to varying degrees. If the stone had fallen in one of these houses, with no first-hand witnesses, it is likely to lay undiscovered and be carted off to the landfill when the city finally bulldozes the property.
Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term
Regine, I completely agree with you, My two cents: hammer stone is of interest to me and to many collectors I know. I have several house hitting meteorites in my collection from Cali, Thika, Guadalajara, etc with the rooftops they hit. But that goes with a particular stone. One Thika which landed in a coffee field does not in my opinion equal the Thika which went through a house rooftop and has the roof with it. To many collectors the roof piece well documented, has special value. To others perhaps not, but to each his own. However someone trying to add extra value to all Thika stones because one went through a house is his marketing and borders on a scam in my opinion.Of course in the case of Park Forest, so many stones hitting houses and buildings, cars Err made the headlines, but again, the specialness should be assigned to each stone not the hundred others that just landed on the ground To suggest every stone from Sutter's Mill is special because one hit a garage door is ludicrous. However that stone stands out among 60+ and many people are willing to pay to have a piece, or we would not have sold out in a couple of days. Michael Farmer Sent from my iPhone On Jun 12, 2012, at 10:08 AM, Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de wrote: Sorry to come up with the subject matter again, but I keep thinking about this every now and then and would like to add my two cents on it this time. I agree with the hammer fall term being misleading, and so far haven't met anyone who is very fond of it except those who actually see it as a market opportunity. On the flip side I have met a few who were seriously confused by the term: The Sylacauga police chief for example, who sent me a link to an Ebay auction, thinking the speck pictured was a piece of the rock which hit Mrs. Hodges (it was instead part of the one found by Julius McKinney, which has an interesting story by itself and, as far as I'm concerned, deserves more attention than a footnote). I'm quite keen on the stories behind hammer stones and the idea that something ancient from out there is hitting something random and creates a connection between the sublime and the mundane. Hammer fall on the other hand is simply a sales term which does the opposite of creating historical awareness: It completely overshadows all the other aspects (historical or other) of a meteorite shower. I'd find it fairly irritating if anyone used the term L'Aigle hammer fall, because one of the pieces (presumably) hit a man on the arm. A more recent example is Sutter's Mill - is it an important fall because one of the rocks struck a garage door? I feel these falls deserve different attributes in their headline, something which is perhaps attributable to all or most of the specimens of the fall, such as the historic significance, the classification, characteristics or man hours included in searching for the pieces in the strewn field. As mentioned before, I'm not referring to the actual stone which hit something, as the designation is significant in identifying the rock as being the single piece falling on something man made. Cheers, Regine __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term
Regine, MikeG, I hate to beat a dead horse but, There actually could be such a thing as a Hammer Fall. Take Carancas for example; This fall was not only observed but, it hit a man made water well and killed a couple of animals while excavating a crater. This fall is generally accepted as a Hammer Fall because we believe it was one huge stone that crashed and exploded. So, then the question is; Is this a hammer stone as well? Of coarse it is. That is IF it was indeed caused by one single stone that exploded on impact. This is a fact that is in dispute amongst Scientists. There may have been a swarm of stones that hit at once. We do have evidence of this in stones that were found that were nearly fully fusion crusted. Had it been just one single stone where did the nearly fully crusted stones come from? This lends doubt that in fact all of the stones are Hammer Stones. However, from a sales standpoint. Having one of these ultra rare fully crusted stones would not be such a bad thing to have. I would think they would be far more rare and therefore far more valuable to both the collector (museum) or Scientist for the simple reason of aesthetics and that it does make for an interesting argument about how many stones did fall. As for the use of the word Michael Blood coined Hammer. He could just of easily have used any number of other words to describe this end result. Swatter, clapper, striker or anything else one does with an object in his had while hitting something. The other really funny term is the use of the word Fall at all. I mean try to explain that to a newby? I mean after all, Aren't all meteorites Falls in the true sense of the word. How else could they have gotten here? So, the use of this term necessitates an explanation. You have to explain that not all meteorites are falls. A newby would look at you like you are nuts. The word fresh fall would make more sense but, most of the time the Fresh is left out. Even when a stone is called a fresh Fall science can only determine the time it fell within years not hour or minutes so even then... If you find a stone. How do you really know when it fell. You did find a fall but was it fresh? Or does it just look fresh? Too Funny. Best, Carl meteoritemax -- Cheers Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de wrote: Well, I'm referring to an overall suspicious odour when it comes to hammer falls on sales pages. It is so imprecise - as many other things related to it. What comes to my mind right now is that I downloaded a small jpg once from a website on hammers when I started getting interested in the historic side of meteorites. I was new to the subject and took the picture as a genuine photograph of a man from the New Concord area sitting on a dead colt which seemed to be collateral damage. I researched my arse off only to find out that the photo is not related and the incident most likely never happened. The unreliability of the New Concord horse kill has been discussed several times on the list in the meantime, yet the picture is still on the website. I hear you say these things are completely unrelated, and perhaps they are. And in the end this might all be peanuts even. Actually, right now, I ask myself what the heck I'm doing here. I actually enjoy doing the detective work on which account is true and which is doubtful! But why anyone actively wants to play a part in the confusion other than to cash in is a mystery to me. Enough said, Best wishes, Regine Von: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com An: Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de CC: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Gesendet: 20:20 Dienstag, 12.Juni 2012 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term Hi Regine, I can't argue that point. I can only say that we (as meteorite buffs) should do our best to educate the newbies, or make resources available that will educate the newbies. I think many of us do that. I also think we could do better if we really tried. But I don't think everyone who uses the term hammer fall is engaging in marketing or trying to mislead people for financial gain. Maybe some dealers do that. If they do, I don't agree with that and they should stop. But the term hammer fall probably isn't going away, and if it does, it will be replaced by another term that means the same thing. And we can't excuse people for making rash purchases. The buyer does bear some responsibility to educate themselves before spending money on a meteorite (or anything). I guess this gets back to some of the most fundamental lessons of collecting things. Do one's homework. Buyer beware. Know your seller. Check references (or feedback). :) Best regards, MikeG -- --- Galactic Stone Ironworks - MikeG Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com
Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term
Sales of hour carbonaceous chondrite encrusted dead horse floggers are hereby held until we can modify our hoc-stock with hammer stone harvested, hand-wrapped hammer handles hurriedly hacked from houses hammered by hammer fall hunks. Hammer fall stones, country mail boxes, Malibus, sun shades or drywall crumbs may have had substitutions at our sole discretion. Caution: hammer stones may help cause horrendous headaches, heartburn and hotflashes and should be havoided. hAd Hauseum er ad nauseum. hI hapologize. hElton On 6/12/12, cdtuc...@cox.net cdtuc...@cox.net wrote: Regine, MikeG, I hate to beat a dead horse but, There actually could be such a thing as a Hammer Fall. Take Carancas for example; This fall was not only observed but, it hit a man made water well and killed a couple of animals while excavating a crater. This fall is generally accepted as a Hammer Fall because we believe it was one huge stone that crashed and exploded. So, then the question is; Is this a hammer stone as well? Of coarse it is. That is IF it was indeed caused by one single stone that exploded on impact. This is a fact that is in dispute amongst Scientists. There may have been a swarm of stones that hit at once. We do have evidence of this in stones that were found that were nearly fully fusion crusted. Had it been just one single stone where did the nearly fully crusted stones come from? This lends doubt that in fact all of the stones are Hammer Stones. However, from a sales standpoint. Having one of these ultra rare fully crusted stones would not be such a bad thing to have. I would think they would be far more rare and therefore far more valuable to both the collector (museum) or Scientist for the simple reason of aesthetics and that it does make for an interesting argument about how many stones did fall. As for the use of the word Michael Blood coined Hammer. He could just of easily have used any number of other words to describe this end result. Swatter, clapper, striker or anything else one does with an object in his had while hitting something. The other really funny term is the use of the word Fall at all. I mean try to explain that to a newby? I mean after all, Aren't all meteorites Falls in the true sense of the word. How else could they have gotten here? So, the use of this term necessitates an explanation. You have to explain that not all meteorites are falls. A newby would look at you like you are nuts. The word fresh fall would make more sense but, most of the time the Fresh is left out. Even when a stone is called a fresh Fall science can only determine the time it fell within years not hour or minutes so even then... If you find a stone. How do you really know when it fell. You did find a fall but was it fresh? Or does it just look fresh? Too Funny. Best, Carl meteoritemax -- Cheers Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de wrote: Well, I'm referring to an overall suspicious odour when it comes to hammer falls on sales pages. It is so imprecise - as many other things related to it. What comes to my mind right now is that I downloaded a small jpg once from a website on hammers when I started getting interested in the historic side of meteorites. I was new to the subject and took the picture as a genuine photograph of a man from the New Concord area sitting on a dead colt which seemed to be collateral damage. I researched my arse off only to find out that the photo is not related and the incident most likely never happened. The unreliability of the New Concord horse kill has been discussed several times on the list in the meantime, yet the picture is still on the website. I hear you say these things are completely unrelated, and perhaps they are. And in the end this might all be peanuts even. Actually, right now, I ask myself what the heck I'm doing here. I actually enjoy doing the detective work on which account is true and which is doubtful! But why anyone actively wants to play a part in the confusion other than to cash in is a mystery to me. Enough said, Best wishes, Regine Von: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com An: Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de CC: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Gesendet: 20:20 Dienstag, 12.Juni 2012 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term Hi Regine, I can't argue that point. I can only say that we (as meteorite buffs) should do our best to educate the newbies, or make resources available that will educate the newbies. I think many of us do that. I also think we could do better if we really tried. But I don't think everyone who uses the term hammer fall is engaging in marketing or trying to mislead people for financial gain. Maybe some dealers do that. If they do, I don't agree with that and they should stop. But the term hammer fall probably isn't going away, and if it does, it will be replaced by another term that means
[meteorite-list] Hammer fall term
Sorry to come up with the subject matter again, but I keep thinking about this every now and then and would like to add my two cents on it this time. I agree with the hammer fall term being misleading, and so far haven't met anyone who is very fond of it except those who actually see it as a market opportunity. On the flip side I have met a few who were seriously confused by the term: The Sylacauga police chief for example, who sent me a link to an Ebay auction, thinking the speck pictured was a piece of the rock which hit Mrs. Hodges (it was instead part of the one found by Julius McKinney, which has an interesting story by itself and, as far as I'm concerned, deserves more attention than a footnote). I'm quite keen on the stories behind hammer stones and the idea that something ancient from out there is hitting something random and creates a connection between the sublime and the mundane. Hammer fall on the other hand is simply a sales term which does the opposite of creating historical awareness: It completely overshadows all the other aspects (historical or other) of a meteorite shower. I'd find it fairly irritating if anyone used the term L'Aigle hammer fall, because one of the pieces (presumably) hit a man on the arm. A more recent example is Sutter's Mill - is it an important fall because one of the rocks struck a garage door? I feel these falls deserve different attributes in their headline, something which is perhaps attributable to all or most of the specimens of the fall, such as the historic significance, the classification, characteristics or man hours included in searching for the pieces in the strewn field. As mentioned before, I'm not referring to the actual stone which hit something, as the designation is significant in identifying the rock as being the single piece falling on something man made. Cheers, Regine __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term
Hi Regine, I agree in principle with what you are saying here, I really do. No meteorite fall should ever be pigeon-holed or categorized solely because a stone struck something, and therefore that stone has a higher financial value. That completely defeats the purpose of collecting meteorites. Let me clarify a few of the points you raised : agree with the hammer fall term being misleading, and so far haven't met anyone who is very fond of it except those who actually see it as a market opportunity. I know of several collectors who use it, and they are not dealers and have no financial interest in using the term hammer fall. Before I became a dealer, I was using it to describe my personal specimens. I still use it because of what it means to me, and some other collectors, not because it is marketing. Maybe others use it for marketing purposes - I would not argue against that. On the flip side I have met a few who were seriously confused by the term: The Sylacauga police chief for example, who sent me a link to an Ebay auction, thinking the speck pictured was a piece of the rock which hit Mrs. Hodges I would expect our dear police chief to be confused - he is not a meteorite collector, he is a policeman. Police officers use lots of terminology that is confusing to people who are not a part of the law-enforcement community. Criminals are often referred to as actors - that is confusing to me. Is a man a bank robber, or is he pretending to be one? Hammer fall on the other hand is simply a sales term which does the opposite of creating historical awareness: It completely overshadows all the other aspects (historical or other) of a meteorite shower. I suppose it could, for some people. I don't see it that way. I'd find it fairly irritating if anyone used the term L'Aigle hammer fall, because one of the pieces (presumably) hit a man on the arm. I agree 100%. In my mind, L'Aigle is a historical fall if one must label it. L'Aigle will always have supreme importance that goes far beyond anything (or person) that may have been struck by a stone. Of course, it's still a hammer fall to some collectors, but I think most hammer-heads would agree that L'Aigle is a fall of great historical importance first, and a hammer fall in the least. A more recent example is Sutter's Mill - is it an important fall because one of the rocks struck a garage door? Indeed not. Sutter's Mill is not defined as a hammer, and never should be. But, to some collectors, the stone that struck Officer Matin's garage has additional value because it did strike a mandmade construct. Of course, this additional value is entirely secondary to the real value of the fall, which is scientific first, cultural second, and hammer a distant third (if at all). I agree completely with your sentiment here. But to say that a segment of the collector community is engaging solely in shameless and misleading marketing because we choose to use a certain term to describe a fall is not true. We can strike the term hammer fall from human memory forever, and that does not change the fact that a Sutter's Mill stone struck a garage, or a Park Forest stone penetrated a house. Somebody will come along and create another term to delineate such falls from a fall like Tamdakt that fell in a remote area. That new term may or may not sound like hammer fall, but the meaning will be the same. And people would then argue over the semantics of it. Best regards, MikeG -- --- Galactic Stone Ironworks - MikeG Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 --- On 6/12/12, Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de wrote: Sorry to come up with the subject matter again, but I keep thinking about this every now and then and would like to add my two cents on it this time. I agree with the hammer fall term being misleading, and so far haven't met anyone who is very fond of it except those who actually see it as a market opportunity. On the flip side I have met a few who were seriously confused by the term: The Sylacauga police chief for example, who sent me a link to an Ebay auction, thinking the speck pictured was a piece of the rock which hit Mrs. Hodges (it was instead part of the one found by Julius McKinney, which has an interesting story by itself and, as far as I'm concerned, deserves more attention than a footnote). I'm quite keen on the stories behind hammer stones and the idea that something ancient from out there is hitting something random and creates a connection between the sublime and the mundane. Hammer fall on the other hand is simply a sales term which does the opposite of creating historical awareness: It completely overshadows all the other aspects (historical or other) of a
Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term
But what if said police chief won the lottery and would like to purchase the crumbs because the thing fell in his town? Of course the term is not that confusing to meteorite buffs, but to new collectors or people who just want to own the one rock from space. Cheers, Regine - Ursprüngliche Message - Von: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com An: Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de CC: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Gesendet: 19:27 Dienstag, 12.Juni 2012 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term Hi Regine, I agree in principle with what you are saying here, I really do. No meteorite fall should ever be pigeon-holed or categorized solely because a stone struck something, and therefore that stone has a higher financial value. That completely defeats the purpose of collecting meteorites. Let me clarify a few of the points you raised : agree with the hammer fall term being misleading, and so far haven't met anyone who is very fond of it except those who actually see it as a market opportunity. I know of several collectors who use it, and they are not dealers and have no financial interest in using the term hammer fall. Before I became a dealer, I was using it to describe my personal specimens. I still use it because of what it means to me, and some other collectors, not because it is marketing. Maybe others use it for marketing purposes - I would not argue against that. On the flip side I have met a few who were seriously confused by the term: The Sylacauga police chief for example, who sent me a link to an Ebay auction, thinking the speck pictured was a piece of the rock which hit Mrs. Hodges I would expect our dear police chief to be confused - he is not a meteorite collector, he is a policeman. Police officers use lots of terminology that is confusing to people who are not a part of the law-enforcement community. Criminals are often referred to as actors - that is confusing to me. Is a man a bank robber, or is he pretending to be one? Hammer fall on the other hand is simply a sales term which does the opposite of creating historical awareness: It completely overshadows all the other aspects (historical or other) of a meteorite shower. I suppose it could, for some people. I don't see it that way. I'd find it fairly irritating if anyone used the term L'Aigle hammer fall, because one of the pieces (presumably) hit a man on the arm. I agree 100%. In my mind, L'Aigle is a historical fall if one must label it. L'Aigle will always have supreme importance that goes far beyond anything (or person) that may have been struck by a stone. Of course, it's still a hammer fall to some collectors, but I think most hammer-heads would agree that L'Aigle is a fall of great historical importance first, and a hammer fall in the least. A more recent example is Sutter's Mill - is it an important fall because one of the rocks struck a garage door? Indeed not. Sutter's Mill is not defined as a hammer, and never should be. But, to some collectors, the stone that struck Officer Matin's garage has additional value because it did strike a mandmade construct. Of course, this additional value is entirely secondary to the real value of the fall, which is scientific first, cultural second, and hammer a distant third (if at all). I agree completely with your sentiment here. But to say that a segment of the collector community is engaging solely in shameless and misleading marketing because we choose to use a certain term to describe a fall is not true. We can strike the term hammer fall from human memory forever, and that does not change the fact that a Sutter's Mill stone struck a garage, or a Park Forest stone penetrated a house. Somebody will come along and create another term to delineate such falls from a fall like Tamdakt that fell in a remote area. That new term may or may not sound like hammer fall, but the meaning will be the same. And people would then argue over the semantics of it. Best regards, MikeG -- --- Galactic Stone Ironworks - MikeG Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 --- On 6/12/12, Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de wrote: Sorry to come up with the subject matter again, but I keep thinking about this every now and then and would like to add my two cents on it this time. I agree with the hammer fall term being misleading, and so far haven't met anyone who is very fond of it except those who actually see it as a market opportunity. On the flip side I have met a few who were seriously confused by the term: The Sylacauga police chief for example, who sent me a link
Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term
Hi Regine, I can't argue that point. I can only say that we (as meteorite buffs) should do our best to educate the newbies, or make resources available that will educate the newbies. I think many of us do that. I also think we could do better if we really tried. But I don't think everyone who uses the term hammer fall is engaging in marketing or trying to mislead people for financial gain. Maybe some dealers do that. If they do, I don't agree with that and they should stop. But the term hammer fall probably isn't going away, and if it does, it will be replaced by another term that means the same thing. And we can't excuse people for making rash purchases. The buyer does bear some responsibility to educate themselves before spending money on a meteorite (or anything). I guess this gets back to some of the most fundamental lessons of collecting things. Do one's homework. Buyer beware. Know your seller. Check references (or feedback). :) Best regards, MikeG -- --- Galactic Stone Ironworks - MikeG Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 --- On 6/12/12, Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de wrote: But what if said police chief won the lottery and would like to purchase the crumbs because the thing fell in his town? Of course the term is not that confusing to meteorite buffs, but to new collectors or people who just want to own the one rock from space. Cheers, Regine - Ursprüngliche Message - Von: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com An: Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de CC: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Gesendet: 19:27 Dienstag, 12.Juni 2012 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term Hi Regine, I agree in principle with what you are saying here, I really do. No meteorite fall should ever be pigeon-holed or categorized solely because a stone struck something, and therefore that stone has a higher financial value. That completely defeats the purpose of collecting meteorites. Let me clarify a few of the points you raised : agree with the hammer fall term being misleading, and so far haven't met anyone who is very fond of it except those who actually see it as a market opportunity. I know of several collectors who use it, and they are not dealers and have no financial interest in using the term hammer fall. Before I became a dealer, I was using it to describe my personal specimens. I still use it because of what it means to me, and some other collectors, not because it is marketing. Maybe others use it for marketing purposes - I would not argue against that. On the flip side I have met a few who were seriously confused by the term: The Sylacauga police chief for example, who sent me a link to an Ebay auction, thinking the speck pictured was a piece of the rock which hit Mrs. Hodges I would expect our dear police chief to be confused - he is not a meteorite collector, he is a policeman. Police officers use lots of terminology that is confusing to people who are not a part of the law-enforcement community. Criminals are often referred to as actors - that is confusing to me. Is a man a bank robber, or is he pretending to be one? Hammer fall on the other hand is simply a sales term which does the opposite of creating historical awareness: It completely overshadows all the other aspects (historical or other) of a meteorite shower. I suppose it could, for some people. I don't see it that way. I'd find it fairly irritating if anyone used the term L'Aigle hammer fall, because one of the pieces (presumably) hit a man on the arm. I agree 100%. In my mind, L'Aigle is a historical fall if one must label it. L'Aigle will always have supreme importance that goes far beyond anything (or person) that may have been struck by a stone. Of course, it's still a hammer fall to some collectors, but I think most hammer-heads would agree that L'Aigle is a fall of great historical importance first, and a hammer fall in the least. A more recent example is Sutter's Mill - is it an important fall because one of the rocks struck a garage door? Indeed not. Sutter's Mill is not defined as a hammer, and never should be. But, to some collectors, the stone that struck Officer Matin's garage has additional value because it did strike a mandmade construct. Of course, this additional value is entirely secondary to the real value of the fall, which is scientific first, cultural second, and hammer a distant third (if at all). I agree completely with your sentiment here. But to say that a segment of the collector community is engaging solely in shameless and misleading marketing because we choose to use a certain term to describe a fall is not true
Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term
Well, I'm referring to an overall suspicious odour when it comes to hammer falls on sales pages. It is so imprecise - as many other things related to it. What comes to my mind right now is that I downloaded a small jpg once from a website on hammers when I started getting interested in the historic side of meteorites. I was new to the subject and took the picture as a genuine photograph of a man from the New Concord area sitting on a dead colt which seemed to be collateral damage. I researched my arse off only to find out that the photo is not related and the incident most likely never happened. The unreliability of the New Concord horse kill has been discussed several times on the list in the meantime, yet the picture is still on the website. I hear you say these things are completely unrelated, and perhaps they are. And in the end this might all be peanuts even. Actually, right now, I ask myself what the heck I'm doing here. I actually enjoy doing the detective work on which account is true and which is doubtful! But why anyone actively wants to play a part in the confusion other than to cash in is a mystery to me. Enough said, Best wishes, Regine Von: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com An: Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de CC: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Gesendet: 20:20 Dienstag, 12.Juni 2012 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term Hi Regine, I can't argue that point. I can only say that we (as meteorite buffs) should do our best to educate the newbies, or make resources available that will educate the newbies. I think many of us do that. I also think we could do better if we really tried. But I don't think everyone who uses the term hammer fall is engaging in marketing or trying to mislead people for financial gain. Maybe some dealers do that. If they do, I don't agree with that and they should stop. But the term hammer fall probably isn't going away, and if it does, it will be replaced by another term that means the same thing. And we can't excuse people for making rash purchases. The buyer does bear some responsibility to educate themselves before spending money on a meteorite (or anything). I guess this gets back to some of the most fundamental lessons of collecting things. Do one's homework. Buyer beware. Know your seller. Check references (or feedback). :) Best regards, MikeG -- --- Galactic Stone Ironworks - MikeG Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 --- On 6/12/12, Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de wrote: But what if said police chief won the lottery and would like to purchase the crumbs because the thing fell in his town? Of course the term is not that confusing to meteorite buffs, but to new collectors or people who just want to own the one rock from space. Cheers, Regine - Ursprüngliche Message - Von: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com An: Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de CC: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Gesendet: 19:27 Dienstag, 12.Juni 2012 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term Hi Regine, I agree in principle with what you are saying here, I really do. No meteorite fall should ever be pigeon-holed or categorized solely because a stone struck something, and therefore that stone has a higher financial value. That completely defeats the purpose of collecting meteorites. Let me clarify a few of the points you raised : agree with the hammer fall term being misleading, and so far haven't met anyone who is very fond of it except those who actually see it as a market opportunity. I know of several collectors who use it, and they are not dealers and have no financial interest in using the term hammer fall. Before I became a dealer, I was using it to describe my personal specimens. I still use it because of what it means to me, and some other collectors, not because it is marketing. Maybe others use it for marketing purposes - I would not argue against that. On the flip side I have met a few who were seriously confused by the term: The Sylacauga police chief for example, who sent me a link to an Ebay auction, thinking the speck pictured was a piece of the rock which hit Mrs. Hodges I would expect our dear police chief to be confused - he is not a meteorite collector, he is a policeman. Police officers use lots of terminology that is confusing to people who are not a part of the law-enforcement community. Criminals are often referred to as actors - that is confusing to me. Is a man a bank robber, or is he pretending to be one? Hammer fall on the other hand is simply a sales term which does the opposite of creating historical awareness
Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term (flogging the dead horse with wild abandon)
Concord horse kill has been discussed several times on the list in the meantime, yet the picture is still on the website. I hear you say these things are completely unrelated, and perhaps they are. And in the end this might all be peanuts even. Actually, right now, I ask myself what the heck I'm doing here. I actually enjoy doing the detective work on which account is true and which is doubtful! But why anyone actively wants to play a part in the confusion other than to cash in is a mystery to me. Enough said, Best wishes, Regine Von: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com An: Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de CC: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Gesendet: 20:20 Dienstag, 12.Juni 2012 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term Hi Regine, I can't argue that point. I can only say that we (as meteorite buffs) should do our best to educate the newbies, or make resources available that will educate the newbies. I think many of us do that. I also think we could do better if we really tried. But I don't think everyone who uses the term hammer fall is engaging in marketing or trying to mislead people for financial gain. Maybe some dealers do that. If they do, I don't agree with that and they should stop. But the term hammer fall probably isn't going away, and if it does, it will be replaced by another term that means the same thing. And we can't excuse people for making rash purchases. The buyer does bear some responsibility to educate themselves before spending money on a meteorite (or anything). I guess this gets back to some of the most fundamental lessons of collecting things. Do one's homework. Buyer beware. Know your seller. Check references (or feedback). :) Best regards, MikeG -- --- Galactic Stone Ironworks - MikeG Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 --- On 6/12/12, Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de wrote: But what if said police chief won the lottery and would like to purchase the crumbs because the thing fell in his town? Of course the term is not that confusing to meteorite buffs, but to new collectors or people who just want to own the one rock from space. Cheers, Regine - Ursprüngliche Message - Von: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com An: Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de CC: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Gesendet: 19:27 Dienstag, 12.Juni 2012 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term Hi Regine, I agree in principle with what you are saying here, I really do. No meteorite fall should ever be pigeon-holed or categorized solely because a stone struck something, and therefore that stone has a higher financial value. That completely defeats the purpose of collecting meteorites. Let me clarify a few of the points you raised : agree with the hammer fall term being misleading, and so far haven't met anyone who is very fond of it except those who actually see it as a market opportunity. I know of several collectors who use it, and they are not dealers and have no financial interest in using the term hammer fall. Before I became a dealer, I was using it to describe my personal specimens. I still use it because of what it means to me, and some other collectors, not because it is marketing. Maybe others use it for marketing purposes - I would not argue against that. On the flip side I have met a few who were seriously confused by the term: The Sylacauga police chief for example, who sent me a link to an Ebay auction, thinking the speck pictured was a piece of the rock which hit Mrs. Hodges I would expect our dear police chief to be confused - he is not a meteorite collector, he is a policeman. Police officers use lots of terminology that is confusing to people who are not a part of the law-enforcement community. Criminals are often referred to as actors - that is confusing to me. Is a man a bank robber, or is he pretending to be one? Hammer fall on the other hand is simply a sales term which does the opposite of creating historical awareness: It completely overshadows all the other aspects (historical or other) of a meteorite shower. I suppose it could, for some people. I don't see it that way. I'd find it fairly irritating if anyone used the term L'Aigle hammer fall, because one of the pieces (presumably) hit a man on the arm. I agree 100%. In my mind, L'Aigle is a historical fall if one must label it. L'Aigle will always have supreme importance that goes far beyond anything (or person) that may have been struck by a stone. Of course, it's
[meteorite-list] Hammer fall term (flogging the dead horse with wild abandon)
Mike G, Regina and Listers Mike G I have to commend you on the explanation on the term Hammer stone and Hammer Fall and Micheal Blood puts it best at this link http://www.michaelbloodmeteorites.com/MMT.html Since I been collecting those terms have been in use. I fell the both come in hand in hand. You can not have one with out the other in those terms and I agree by adding that term to a meteorite can add value. Historic history adds value to a meteorite. Rarity adds value. Even nick names have added value to meteorites. At the end of the day, people collect Hammer Stones and people collect meteorites from Hammer Falls and just because some people on the List do not collect Hammer Stones or Hammer Fall's, does not mean they have the right to say it is non since, silly, or useless word cause scientists do not use that term. But again, people are entitled to their own opinion and people are aloud to collect meteorites as they see fit for their collection. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBay Store http://www.ebay.com/sch/ph0t0phl0w/m.html? [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term (flogging the dead horse with wild abandon) Michael Gilmer meteoritemike at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 22:04:45 EDT 2012 * Previous message: [meteorite-list] Ensisheim 2012, latest news * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Hi Gang, Flogging dead equines is my specialty, along with waking sleeping canines. ;) This is long. Those who are tired of this discussion, please hit your delete button now. I'm not saying that every person who uses the term hammer fall is 100% innocent of marketing gimmicks. I cannot speak for every dealer, just myself. I use the term. I have used it for years. One of the first things that really interested me about collecting was - different types and hammers. When I was new, I tried to amass a complete type collection. That is a common error many newbies make, because we don't realize what an expensive and difficult process it is to complete a type collection that includes all rare types. So, I eventually abandoned the type collecting and moved over to hammers. I love hammers. I won't pretend to love them as much as Captain Blood, but his website and enthusiasm did influence me. And thanks to the internet, a wealth of information is available about all meteorite falls, including hammers. I couldn't get enough hammers, and I still can't completely slake my thirst for meteorites that hit things. I won't rest until I have a piece of Lorton.and Grimsby.and so on. Both of those are unattainable at the moment. But given patience, some portion of those specimens (especially Lorton) may be traded out into the private market - Just like the core section of the Hodges stone from Sylacauga. But I digress. My point is, some of us use the term hammer fall to express the following information : 1) the meteorite in question is a fall, and not a find. 2) the fall is an event where one or more stones struck a manmade construct or a living thing. Having said that, if the fall is not a single-stone event, then other stones from that same fall may have hit nothing of consequence. They might have fallen in a field, in a forest, in a desert, on a mountainside, etc. Those stones are *not* hammer stones and should never be referred to as such. The stone(s) that actually did strike something manmade (or living) are hammer stones. If *any* stone from a fall strikes something manmade (or living), then that fall is a hammer fall and all stones from that fall can be referred to as originating from a hammer fall. However, as stated before, only the actual stones that hit something manmade or living are hammer stones. This is a simple concept and I don't see where all the confusion arises from. Maybe as a collector and dealer I am too close to the forest to see the trees on this one. I cannot go back in time and look at this as a newbie would. Let's use one of the most famous hammer falls as an example here - Sylacauga. Sylacauga is a hammer fall. It is also a witnessed fall. Given the fact that it set legal precedents and is the best documented case of a human being struck, it may one day be referred to as a historical fall. But I think the term historical is premature for Sylacauga. Let's wait another 50 years or so and then revisit the historical debate for this one. The Hodges stone is a hammer stone. The stone found by Julius McKinney is *not* a hammer stone. Both stones originate from a hammer fall. The usage of the hammer fall phrase does not bestow hammer stone status upon the McKinney stone. The McKinney stone will never be a hammer stone, regardless of what term is used to describe the Sylacauga meteorite fall. We can call it a fall, a witnessed fall, a hammer fall, or late for dinner - but the Hodges stone will always be the sole hammer
