[meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info
According to O. Richard Norton, and the Meteoritical Society, all meteorites found in India are the property of the Geological Survey of India. In his Field Guide to Meteors and Meteorites, Norton also states Gibeon meteorites are illegal to export from Namibia. http://books.google.com/books?id=OMgDhc8d7v4Cpg=PA196lpg=PA196dq=india+meteorite+lawsource=blots=YtKnvn3YvNsig=DH4joiHMJGB77MQMz3ZRMuQh6GEhl=ensa=Xei=iyEJUM22F-qY2wXG9MmvBwved=0CF4Q6AEwBg#v=onepageq=india%20meteorite%20lawf=false http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/metsoc2001/pdf/5150.pdf They are referring to: The Resolution of the Government of India, Revenue Agriculture Department, No. 45G-22-13, dated 1885 April 28, at Simla, provides that all falls of aerolites together with the papers relating to them should in the first instance be forwarded to the Government Geological Museum of Calcutta. By circular letters (No. 14870-14883-119 dated 1914 December 19, and No. M-1184 dated 1925 June 9) to all local governments the national government has required compliance with the resolution. The Museum is under the control of the Director of the Geological Survey of India. No compensation is paid to finders, and the possession of a new find is usually taken by a representative of the Geological Survey of India, or the local police. http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=2002M%26PSB..375Sdb_key=ASTpage_ind=2data_type=GIFtype=SCREEN_VIEWclassic=YES Phil Whitmer Joshua Tree Earth Space Museum __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info
Hi Gang, Some thoughts from the peanut gallery : UNESCO does not apply to meteorites. The British mandate/order in regards to Indian meteorites is over 120 years old and India is not longer a territory of the British crown. The late great O. Richard Norton was not a legal expert. Laws (and more importantly, their enforcement) vary from nation to nation, and from state to state within those nations. Without input from a legal expert fluent in international law, we are engaging in speculation and conjecture for the purpose of ethical posturing and mud-slinging. When one has a question about a law in a given state or nation, a good place to start inquiring is with a resident of that nation or state. Are there any members of this List or the IMCA who are residents of India? If so, let us ask them what the laws are and go from there. Are copies of the relevant laws or regulations available online? If so, can someone provide a link to these online resources? Meteorites involve a lot of grey areas - legally and ethically. Solid authoritative information on these laws is sorely lacking. Example - most of the Canyon Diablo specimens for sale are illegal. We know this because the laws here in the USA are easily found online, in local libraries, or by asking a local resident or official. The entire CD strewnfield is on private property or state of Arizona land that is leased to private owners. The owners or caretakers of these properties have made it known that prospecting for CD meteorites is an exercise in trespassing and theft. This is easily established. If people on this List want to start pointing fingers and making allegations, please start in an area where the laws (and their interpretation and enforcement) can be clearly referenced in an objective manner. Canadian and Australian laws in regards to meteorites are clearly known. There is no debate there. Ask a Canadian or Australian citizen. On the issue of Indian, Argentine, Algerian, or Omani meteorites, let us follow the same example - ask a citizen of the nation in question and go from there. The IMCA (or anyone else) cannot determine if a given meteorite specimen is legal, unless the history of that specific specimen is documented and the laws pertaining to that specimen are clearly known. An electron microprobe cannot determine *when* a meteorite was recovered. Was a Canyon Diablo meteorite recovered before it was illegal to do so? Who knows? This is a textbook definition of a grey area, and many other meteorites from other nations fall into the same category - Campo del Cielo, NWA 869, and a host of others. Until such a time when the date of recovery (and circumstances) can be objectively determined, we can only rely on the word and reputation of the seller or owner. What we are seeing in this public debate on legality is a lot of speculation and posturing, without any substance or authoritative knowledge. This mud-slinging contest is not doing the meteorite community any good - it makes us all look like a bunch of petty blowhards. One last comment - meteorites are a product of the cosmos. They have existed for billions of years before man crawled out of the primordial ooze and they will exist for billions of years after we people turn to dust. We are their temporary caretakers for an eye-blink of the galactic time scale. It is the height of arrogance for any man or nation to think they have exclusive legal rights over a product of the cosmos. What is a law? It was once legal in the USA to own another human being as a slave. Just because it was legal does not mean it was right. Laws can be wrong. Human beings can be wrong. As a collector or dealer of meteorites, the best thing one can do is to follow one's conscience. When holding a meteorite in hand, ask yourself - is science being harmed by this action? If not, then enjoy that meteorite. Best regards, MikeG -- --- Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 --- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info
Hi, maybe the gang can ask here, for the actual legislation in place and its very wording, to end the speculations? http://www.portal.gsi.gov.in/gsiDoc/pub/dgco-contact-details.pdf Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von MikeG Gesendet: Freitag, 20. Juli 2012 17:59 An: JoshuaTreeMuseum Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info Hi Gang, Some thoughts from the peanut gallery : UNESCO does not apply to meteorites. The British mandate/order in regards to Indian meteorites is over 120 years old and India is not longer a territory of the British crown. The late great O. Richard Norton was not a legal expert. Laws (and more importantly, their enforcement) vary from nation to nation, and from state to state within those nations. Without input from a legal expert fluent in international law, we are engaging in speculation and conjecture for the purpose of ethical posturing and mud-slinging. When one has a question about a law in a given state or nation, a good place to start inquiring is with a resident of that nation or state. Are there any members of this List or the IMCA who are residents of India? If so, let us ask them what the laws are and go from there. Are copies of the relevant laws or regulations available online? If so, can someone provide a link to these online resources? Meteorites involve a lot of grey areas - legally and ethically. Solid authoritative information on these laws is sorely lacking. Example - most of the Canyon Diablo specimens for sale are illegal. We know this because the laws here in the USA are easily found online, in local libraries, or by asking a local resident or official. The entire CD strewnfield is on private property or state of Arizona land that is leased to private owners. The owners or caretakers of these properties have made it known that prospecting for CD meteorites is an exercise in trespassing and theft. This is easily established. If people on this List want to start pointing fingers and making allegations, please start in an area where the laws (and their interpretation and enforcement) can be clearly referenced in an objective manner. Canadian and Australian laws in regards to meteorites are clearly known. There is no debate there. Ask a Canadian or Australian citizen. On the issue of Indian, Argentine, Algerian, or Omani meteorites, let us follow the same example - ask a citizen of the nation in question and go from there. The IMCA (or anyone else) cannot determine if a given meteorite specimen is legal, unless the history of that specific specimen is documented and the laws pertaining to that specimen are clearly known. An electron microprobe cannot determine *when* a meteorite was recovered. Was a Canyon Diablo meteorite recovered before it was illegal to do so? Who knows? This is a textbook definition of a grey area, and many other meteorites from other nations fall into the same category - Campo del Cielo, NWA 869, and a host of others. Until such a time when the date of recovery (and circumstances) can be objectively determined, we can only rely on the word and reputation of the seller or owner. What we are seeing in this public debate on legality is a lot of speculation and posturing, without any substance or authoritative knowledge. This mud-slinging contest is not doing the meteorite community any good - it makes us all look like a bunch of petty blowhards. One last comment - meteorites are a product of the cosmos. They have existed for billions of years before man crawled out of the primordial ooze and they will exist for billions of years after we people turn to dust. We are their temporary caretakers for an eye-blink of the galactic time scale. It is the height of arrogance for any man or nation to think they have exclusive legal rights over a product of the cosmos. What is a law? It was once legal in the USA to own another human being as a slave. Just because it was legal does not mean it was right. Laws can be wrong. Human beings can be wrong. As a collector or dealer of meteorites, the best thing one can do is to follow one's conscience. When holding a meteorite in hand, ask yourself - is science being harmed by this action? If not, then enjoy that meteorite. Best regards, MikeG -- --- Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 --- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo
[meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info
Here is a link to some really good info concerning international laws related to meteorites and exportation of them. It specifically makes note of meteorites from India also. http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2002M%26PSB..375S Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites - Original Message - From: Richard Montgomery rickm...@earthlink.net To: bill kies parkforest...@hotmail.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 9:07 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Katol India meteorite - Forbidden Fruit Time for me to excuse myself from any further comments on this thread, the neophyte that I am, with this last one on this topic: when I mentioned I echoed Mike's comments, I see it all from afar as a non-IMCA member, and have held onto my perspective that the meteorite world is as pristine as the falls and finds we enjoy. Sad to see the drama. -Richard Montgomery - Original Message - From: bill kies parkforest...@hotmail.com To: rickm...@earthlink.net Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 9:07 PM Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Katol India meteorite - Forbidden Fruit Sorry Richard but this an endemic issue that will always be viewed with a turned head. What bothers me the most is the fact that it get's ignored in relation to who is involved. I don't really care who sells an illegal rock unless it's an imca member who is sworn to the uphold the truth.. like anyone really cares about the imca. The perpetrator rolls the dice. I do get disgusted when the people who preach about it all backslide into their own bs. Many have preached and done the contrary. Check the archives. I can accept opportunists and leaches as long as they're up front about it, as long as they don't get in my way From: rickm...@earthlink.net To: m...@meteoriteguy.com; star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 20:32:35 -0700 CC: jasonu...@gmail.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Katol India meteorite - Forbidden Fruit A follow-up to clarify...I echo MF's perspective. -RM - Original Message - From: Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com To: Greg Catterton star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com Cc: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com; Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 3:54 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Katol India meteorite - Forbidden Fruit Perhaps the job of the IMCA is not to police the world's laws, but to ensure authenticity, which is what it was set up to do. Michael Farmer Sent from my iPad On Jul 14, 2012, at 3:46 PM, Greg Catterton star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com wrote: 1. You know more then well I was told it was Mifflin. I FULLY REFUNDED EVERYONE. Case closed. YOU can shove off I had several still not return material to me even though they were refunded..., including Mike Cottingham, and John Helm. 2. I spent several thousand of my money to try to open the museum. It failed. What can I say? I tried... Again, you can shove off 3. I have returned EVERYTHING donated minus one person who I have talked to about it. YOU did nothing yet run your mouth... again, shove off... 4. WHAT I DID/DO DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT THAT YOU SELLING ILLEGALLY EXPORTED MATERIAL AND KNOW AS MUCH!!! I didnt know about the mifflin, you know the laws about this, and choose to ignore it! your comments are pathetic. YOU are breaking international laws, and are an IMCA member to boot... Where is the IMCA right now when you are selling ILLEGALLY EXPORTED METEORITES? What are they going to do with you breaking numerous IMCA rules? ANYONE from the IMCA care to comment or will they remain quite as that usually do when one of the good ol boys break the rules? Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 6:34 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Katol India meteorite - Forbidden Fruit Hello Greg, The gall you must have to pass on thousands of dollars of fake material, take donations for a good cause, flake on the cause (but keep many of the donations) and then rag on me for selling *accurately described material*...just shove off. You've done more harm to this community on your own than most others have been able to manage in the past fifteen years. Jason I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time. On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 9:23 AM, wanderings...@wanderingstarmeteorites.com wrote: Its Commonly known
Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info
I would call this bad info! This old paper has come up several times and is garbage as far as I am concerned. The late Richard Norton was alarmed about how the UNESCO (laws?) were being twisted to include meteorites and rallied against it as soon as this infamous paper was published. As far as I know, the word meteorite is not mentioned in the original UNESCO works. I think self-appointed experts modified it after the fact without the advice of lawmakers. The only way I view a meteorite could be called cultural property is if it was either worshiped or converted to an artifact over 100 years ago. Meteorites that have had no interaction with human beings until they are found should be treated the same as rocks. If one of the purposes of UNESCO is to protect meteorites, then they should have been specifically mentioned in the documents. This being said, some countries specifically mention meteorites being off limits but then again, you have to be careful since the laws can and do vary for each province or state in foreign countries. Perhaps an unbiased international attorney or panel should investigate the laws since they affect all of us. Until then, use your best judgment. Best Regards, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info
UNESCO-1970 is not a law, but it is a convention to harmonize national laws of the signing states. Meteorites can be protected only by national laws. (Like e.g Namibia, Canada, Australia, South-Africa did). That is given in the convention's text. Schmitt's information on Argentina is outdated. The information on New Zealand is wrong. The information on India doubtful. Also Switzerland has a different procedure. (And also from hearsay - under certain circumstances it seems possible for a finder to keep his Danekrae). Hence, that paper is not a reliable source. Martin __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info
Hi, I always think, that debates about laws are vain, as long as one has not the very wordings of the law at hand. I don't have the Indian law at hand, neither I found anyone, who could show it to me, even those, who echo the date from the paper 1885 seem not to have it. I by my own found only the same words here: Circular No.22-1777, dated 10th of July, 1869, by T.H.Thornton, Secretary to Government Punjab, in continuation of circular No.13-975, dated 28th of April 1863, wich is, full quote of the text: “directing, that all Indian Meteorites shall be in future transmitted to the Trustees of the Indian Museum.” I have no idea, whether that had a status of a law or whether it was only a service regulations to the administrative officers. Both, that one and the quote by Schmitt say nothing about ownership, export, compensations ect. Then - India became independent in 1947 and in 1950 a republic. I'm not sure, whether the old laws from the British dominion are still in place. If they are btw. what does that mean for meteorites from Pakistan? Furthermore: Hey reported in 1967 to the UNESCO Working Group on Meteorites, that meteorites in India would be treated as bona vacantia as given in article 296 of the Indian constitution. Find the article here: http://www.indiankanoon.org/doc/290059/ It says that those ownerless objects found on the territory of India, of that kind, which before would be accrued to the King, will be property of the state or federal state. Well, I'm not sure, who is meant be the King from former time. Was it the English King George, Emperor of India? And if so, was then British Law in place in the colony? Because if so, then like still today in U.K. (compare the hilarious debate in the House of Lords about the meteorite bill), finds of gold and silver belong to the crown, all other you can keep. Questions and questions... Answer can give only the law, which is in place today. But nobody ever saw it :-( Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: cdtuc...@cox.net [mailto:cdtuc...@cox.net] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. Juli 2012 19:55 An: Martin Altmann Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info Martin, Welcome back to posting. You have been missed. You said; The information on India doubtful This law is spelled out very specifically and includes the words aerolites. How much more specific could you ask? . . In what way do you doubt it? As it stands right now. Anybody with India's meteorites in their collection has a tainted collection. If this info is incorrect there are hundreds of people that would like this clarified. Please provide proof that this law is doubtful. Site references or something. Carl -- Cheers __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info
Hello Martin, All, I spent some time looking into the issue as well, after last week's...debacle. I was unable to find a record of any actual laws pertaining to the subject, but did find the article that Greg posted and put some additional work into the matter. As best I can tell, the existing arrangement is a domestic protocol for local officials to follow if they obtain a meteorite. However, recent meteorite falls in India have been commandeered by the government by local officials (and, it seems, GSI employees) with those officials threatening imprisonment if locals sell their finds. I wasn't able to find any legal justification for this, but heard similar stories surrounding both Katol and Sulagiri. The circulars/letters in question appear to have come from the ruling British Government as instructions for India's Government. http://books.google.com/books?id=jRUTYAAJpg=PA120lpg=PA120dq=Circular+No.+22-1777+1869+Thorntonsource=blots=xNJjVEoCO4sig=BLjQnyh5DiIn3kY-lwunvpx5Bvohl=ensa=Xei=RZEIUISCJKfe2AWZm7DkBwved=0CEwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepageq=Circular%20No.%2022-1777%201869%20Thorntonf=false http://books.google.com/books?id=jRUTYAAJpg=RA2-PA95lpg=RA2-PA95dq=Letter+2447+1869+may+indiasource=blots=xNJjVEpvP0sig=wxRxybUsdq_cKITHbT4HfkYFXskhl=ensa=Xei=d5IIUKiVDsKg2gW72ZnGBwved=0CEgQ6AEwAA#v=onepageq=Letter%202447%201869%20may%20indiaf=false As one can see above, I am directed to request that all Indian Meteorites may, in future, be transmitted to the Trustees of the Indian Museum in preference to sending them direct to England. It would seem that the above letter directly refers to the exportation of meteorites from India as legal, or at least as legal as it might be to export a meteorite from England (legal), since the law (if it can be called that) was a British mandate. The only person who offered any information along with their claim -- that the export of Indian meteorites was prohibited -- suggested that the law had been in place since 1885. I, too, was not able to find any such record. I was also unable to obtain a copy of Circular No. 13--975, dated 28th of April, 1863. I would like to see a copy of it if anyone can find it. Until then, and barring additional evidence, I would appreciate an apology from Greg Catterton. Regards, Jason On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de wrote: Hi, I always think, that debates about laws are vain, as long as one has not the very wordings of the law at hand. I don't have the Indian law at hand, neither I found anyone, who could show it to me, even those, who echo the date from the paper 1885 seem not to have it. I by my own found only the same words here: Circular No.22-1777, dated 10th of July, 1869, by T.H.Thornton, Secretary to Government Punjab, in continuation of circular No.13-975, dated 28th of April 1863, wich is, full quote of the text: “directing, that all Indian Meteorites shall be in future transmitted to the Trustees of the Indian Museum.” I have no idea, whether that had a status of a law or whether it was only a service regulations to the administrative officers. Both, that one and the quote by Schmitt say nothing about ownership, export, compensations ect. Then - India became independent in 1947 and in 1950 a republic. I'm not sure, whether the old laws from the British dominion are still in place. If they are btw. what does that mean for meteorites from Pakistan? Furthermore: Hey reported in 1967 to the UNESCO Working Group on Meteorites, that meteorites in India would be treated as bona vacantia as given in article 296 of the Indian constitution. Find the article here: http://www.indiankanoon.org/doc/290059/ It says that those ownerless objects found on the territory of India, of that kind, which before would be accrued to the King, will be property of the state or federal state. Well, I'm not sure, who is meant be the King from former time. Was it the English King George, Emperor of India? And if so, was then British Law in place in the colony? Because if so, then like still today in U.K. (compare the hilarious debate in the House of Lords about the meteorite bill), finds of gold and silver belong to the crown, all other you can keep. Questions and questions... Answer can give only the law, which is in place today. But nobody ever saw it :-( Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: cdtuc...@cox.net [mailto:cdtuc...@cox.net] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. Juli 2012 19:55 An: Martin Altmann Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info Martin, Welcome back to posting. You have been missed. You said; The information on India doubtful This law is spelled out very specifically and includes the words aerolites. How much more specific could you ask? . . In what way do you doubt it? As it stands right now. Anybody with India's meteorites in their collection has a tainted
Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info
Jason said: As best I can tell, the existing arrangement is a domestic protocol for local officials to follow if they obtain a meteorite. However, recent meteorite falls in India have been commandeered by the government by local officials (and, it seems, GSI employees) with those officials threatening imprisonment if locals sell their finds. I wasn't able to find any legal justification for this, but heard similar stories surrounding both Katol and Sulagiri. Then said: As one can see above, I am directed to request that all Indian Meteorites may, in future, be transmitted to the Trustees of the Indian Museum in preference to sending them direct to England. Followed by HIS OPINION It would seem that the above letter directly refers to the exportation of meteorites from India as legal, or at least as legal as it might be to export a meteorite from England (legal), since the law (if it can be called that) was a British mandate. How can you say that after your first two comments? Anne Black has repeatedly stated Sulagiri and meteorites from India are ILLEGAL, same as Berduc and others. Dont side step this and confuse the followers with your opinions Jason... Thats almost as silly as trying to redirect this subject to me. ITS NOT ABOUT ME. Its not about you... its about the export laws that in your first comment above, CLEARLY shows that its not acceptable to the local law/governing bodies. Your second comment goes on to say that they are to be sent to England. NOT to be sent out of the country to the USA (YOU) or anyone else. The meteorites are illegal. Anne knows this, so does the IMCA board. They are just looking the other way when one of the clique does it. I would have liked the IMCA board to weigh in on this since it does go directly against the code of ethics, but as usual, they will likely remain silent rather then take action against over half the dealers who are members who are breaking the code of ethics. They board should not speak out against the black market meteorites when they allow members to conduct activities of the very nature they stand against. If I wanted, I could send the person who wrote the story the 7 IMCA members info who are selling illegal meteorites (such as berduc and others mentioned recently) with screen captures and everything from the websites they have it listed on... wonder how that would look to the readers who see the replies from Anne and other IMCA members - even though they already know of the activity! Shame on the IMCA for being so shameful in regards to the equal enforcement of its own rules. Jason has his blacklist, but as with the IMCA, he picks and chooses who to include. Farmer is not on there, Ward is not, Haag is not. Mike Miller is not (convicted in GA) and so are many others who have been arrested in conjunction with meteorite hunting or sales/export... If your going to toss dirt, make sure you spread it around where it belongs Jason dont just pick and choose. Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 7:14 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info Hello Martin, All, I spent some time looking into the issue as well, after last week's...debacle. I was unable to find a record of any actual laws pertaining to the subject, but did find the article that Greg posted and put some additional work into the matter. As best I can tell, the existing arrangement is a domestic protocol for local officials to follow if they obtain a meteorite. However, recent meteorite falls in India have been commandeered by the government by local officials (and, it seems, GSI employees) with those officials threatening imprisonment if locals sell their finds. I wasn't able to find any legal justification for this, but heard similar stories surrounding both Katol and Sulagiri. The circulars/letters in question appear to have come from the ruling British Government as instructions for India's Government. http://books.google.com/books?id=jRUTYAAJpg=PA120lpg=PA120dq=Circular+No.+22-1777+1869+Thorntonsource=blots=xNJjVEoCO4sig=BLjQnyh5DiIn3kY-lwunvpx5Bvohl=ensa=Xei=RZEIUISCJKfe2AWZm7DkBwved=0CEwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepageq=Circular%20No.%2022-1777%201869%20Thorntonf=false http://books.google.com/books?id=jRUTYAAJpg=RA2-PA95lpg=RA2-PA95dq=Letter+2447+1869+may+indiasource=blots=xNJjVEpvP0sig=wxRxybUsdq_cKITHbT4HfkYFXskhl=ensa=Xei=d5IIUKiVDsKg2gW72ZnGBwved=0CEgQ6AEwAA#v=onepageq=Letter%202447%201869%20may%20indiaf=false As one can see above, I am directed to request that all Indian Meteorites may, in future, be transmitted to the Trustees of the Indian Museum in preference to sending them direct to England. It would
Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info
Hello All, Greg Catterton said: How can you say that after your first two comments? Anne Black has repeatedly stated Sulagiri and meteorites from India are ILLEGAL, same as Berduc and others. It seems that Anne's word alone is not sufficient to create new laws in India. She quoted the 1865 reference to me, and it does not seem to exist. Berduc, on the other hand, does appear to be illegally exported based on what I've heard about Argentina's laws, but I haven't looked into that and feel unqualified to comment. ITS NOT ABOUT ME. Its not about you... its about the export laws that in your first comment above, CLEARLY shows that its not acceptable to the local law/governing bodies. At the time, India was the property of the crown, and Britain has never had any export laws pertaining to British meteorites. Thus, your interpretation of the circulars/letters as some form of a prohibitive export law makes no sense whatsoever. It would be like the US restricting the export of meteorites from Puerto Rico while ignoring/allowing exports from the mainland. Again, it simply does not make sense. You have no evidence to suggest that the export of meteorites from India is illegal, yet you continue to insist upon that notion. This really does seem to be about YOU versus the IMCA. And ME. Lol. Jason On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 6:21 PM, Greg Catterton star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com wrote: Jason said: As best I can tell, the existing arrangement is a domestic protocol for local officials to follow if they obtain a meteorite. However, recent meteorite falls in India have been commandeered by the government by local officials (and, it seems, GSI employees) with those officials threatening imprisonment if locals sell their finds. I wasn't able to find any legal justification for this, but heard similar stories surrounding both Katol and Sulagiri. Then said: As one can see above, I am directed to request that all Indian Meteorites may, in future, be transmitted to the Trustees of the Indian Museum in preference to sending them direct to England. Followed by HIS OPINION It would seem that the above letter directly refers to the exportation of meteorites from India as legal, or at least as legal as it might be to export a meteorite from England (legal), since the law (if it can be called that) was a British mandate. How can you say that after your first two comments? Anne Black has repeatedly stated Sulagiri and meteorites from India are ILLEGAL, same as Berduc and others. Dont side step this and confuse the followers with your opinions Jason... Thats almost as silly as trying to redirect this subject to me. ITS NOT ABOUT ME. Its not about you... its about the export laws that in your first comment above, CLEARLY shows that its not acceptable to the local law/governing bodies. Your second comment goes on to say that they are to be sent to England. NOT to be sent out of the country to the USA (YOU) or anyone else. The meteorites are illegal. Anne knows this, so does the IMCA board. They are just looking the other way when one of the clique does it. I would have liked the IMCA board to weigh in on this since it does go directly against the code of ethics, but as usual, they will likely remain silent rather then take action against over half the dealers who are members who are breaking the code of ethics. They board should not speak out against the black market meteorites when they allow members to conduct activities of the very nature they stand against. If I wanted, I could send the person who wrote the story the 7 IMCA members info who are selling illegal meteorites (such as berduc and others mentioned recently) with screen captures and everything from the websites they have it listed on... wonder how that would look to the readers who see the replies from Anne and other IMCA members - even though they already know of the activity! Shame on the IMCA for being so shameful in regards to the equal enforcement of its own rules. Jason has his blacklist, but as with the IMCA, he picks and chooses who to include. Farmer is not on there, Ward is not, Haag is not. Mike Miller is not (convicted in GA) and so are many others who have been arrested in conjunction with meteorite hunting or sales/export... If your going to toss dirt, make sure you spread it around where it belongs Jason dont just pick and choose. Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 7:14 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info Hello Martin, All, I spent some time looking into the issue as well, after last week's...debacle
Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info
Jason, I was going after the IMCA while I was still a member and was running for a spot on the board two elections ago. This is all in the archives unless the purged it to cover up the activities they are doing. They still wont account for where all the money they get in member dues has went, why the non profit status was revoked in 2008, who Daniel K. Cathcart is (the one time owner) Anyone know him? Who the current owner is (Adam Hupe?) how and why he came to own it... As a member of the IMCA, I lost a lot of faith in the group for the lack of answers to questions many had. Not just me. I was just the most outspoken about it. I even went to say that if I was not elected, I would be kicked out of the group within months for what I was pressing them to answer and the fact they would not. I and MANY other members asked for budget info for years. They would NOT release it. They wont say who and how many members are free (Bribed?) to be members... They are silent just like on this. Legal status of meteorites and import export goees to the heart of the IMCA code of ethics yet they do nothing about it to help the community. This is not me being mad about not being a member or even your stupid blacklist site you have. Its about honesty of the group who is supposed to (or should be) the go to for real meteorite info and authenticity. The IMCA is useless unless you want the logo to sell meteorites under some false and half hearted rules and ethics. When Mike Blood offered to buy the entire board Robert rules, they said no! Why? That is a great resource they choose not to accept his kind offer. Please dont get me wrong, there are some great people in the IMCA and even the board has a few good ones, but not many who are in actual control. Its a marketing gimmick. Thats it. The IMCA could be great, but they are not currently effective in pretty much anything. The official reason I am not a member is because I tried to export a buzzard coulee prior to me getting the permit. (which I did get) and the reason I wanted it was to have a very fresh sample to provide to a friend for study and thin sectioning... I did not want to wait several months for it and who knows what contamination to occur... NO OTHER REASON. I have the emails from the IMCA board showing this and will provide them to ANYONE who wants to see. Anyone who says different, please speak up now. I could go on, but I will wait to see if anything I said here is addressed... likely will be silent as usual and try to sweep these things under the rug. So again, please IMCA board, owner, president, vice president? Any want to answer the questions above? Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 9:51 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info Hello All, Greg Catterton said: How can you say that after your first two comments? Anne Black has repeatedly stated Sulagiri and meteorites from India are ILLEGAL, same as Berduc and others. It seems that Anne's word alone is not sufficient to create new laws in India. She quoted the 1865 reference to me, and it does not seem to exist. Berduc, on the other hand, does appear to be illegally exported based on what I've heard about Argentina's laws, but I haven't looked into that and feel unqualified to comment. ITS NOT ABOUT ME. Its not about you... its about the export laws that in your first comment above, CLEARLY shows that its not acceptable to the local law/governing bodies. At the time, India was the property of the crown, and Britain has never had any export laws pertaining to British meteorites. Thus, your interpretation of the circulars/letters as some form of a prohibitive export law makes no sense whatsoever. It would be like the US restricting the export of meteorites from Puerto Rico while ignoring/allowing exports from the mainland. Again, it simply does not make sense. You have no evidence to suggest that the export of meteorites from India is illegal, yet you continue to insist upon that notion. This really does seem to be about YOU versus the IMCA. And ME. Lol. Jason On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 6:21 PM, Greg Catterton star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com wrote: Jason said: As best I can tell, the existing arrangement is a domestic protocol for local officials to follow if they obtain a meteorite. However, recent meteorite falls in India have been commandeered by the government by local officials (and, it seems, GSI employees) with those officials threatening imprisonment if locals sell their finds. I wasn't able to find any legal justification for this, but heard similar stories surrounding both Katol
