Re: [meteorite-list] what is the most primitve meteorite? or do we even know?
.. approx .. 4,566,500,000 years old .. and it still amazes me that number ! It's always fun to blow peoples mind who are handling meteorites for the first time with : These rocks are [old]... 4,566,500,000 years Or 60,886,666 Human Lifetimes or 237,458,000,000 weeks or 1,662,206,000,000 Days or 39,892,944,000,000 Hours or 2,393,576,640,000,000 Minutes or 143,614,598,400,000,000 Seconds! Best Mark F. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 April 2008 11:33 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] what is the most primitve meteorite? or do we even know? Hi L.A., Listees, Just the white powdery CAI material which represents a small fraction of Allende is the old snuff ... There are probably other carbonaceous chondrites of types similar to the age of Allende from the recent vast harvest of the deserts ... but I think scientists have a hard time splitting the hairs of the first couple of million years when they are just dealing with excess concretes that never were cleaned during the construction of this whole cool neighborhood of the Sun we live in. Bjurbole is a standard and older than the hills of the Solar Sytem, as well ... at least a standard to judge others: the oldies must all be aroound 4,566,500,000 years old. or maybe a million more. Telling the age of a meteorite is kind of challenging since they are heterogenious. For example, a person is born and grows based on an initial splitting of some strands of DNA. But if someone analyzed the ends of your hair, the might find you older than all the men on the list except Bob Haag and Ken (?), and Michael C. So how many inclusions floating out there in places no one expects, I couldn't guess ... that are older than old. Then, several listmembers may be older and know better, Best wishes and nice to see you posting, Doug -Original Message- From: Leigh Anne DelRay [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 2:22 am Subject: [meteorite-list] what is the most primitve meteorite? or do we even know? Dear Listees~ I was wondering if anyone knows what the oldest (as in most primitive) meteorite is? I was thinking it was Allende, b/c it is believed to be of extra-solar origin, but is there another one that is more primitive than that? Is there one that is older than our own solar system? Thanks for letting me pick your brains. ~L.A. DelRay _ ___ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us. Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] You should not copy or use this email or attachment(s) for any purpose nor disclose their contents to any other person. GENERAL STATEMENT: Southern Scientific Ltd's computer systems may be monitored and communications carried on them recorded, to secure the effective operation of the system and for other lawful purposes. Registered address Rectory Farm Rd, Sompting, Lancing, W Sussex BN15 0DP. Company No 1800317 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] what is the most primitve meteorite? or do we even know?
Dear Listees~ I was wondering if anyone knows what the oldest (as in most primitive) meteorite is? I was thinking it was Allende, b/c it is believed to be of extra-solar origin, but is there another one that is more primitive than that? Is there one that is older than our own solar system? Thanks for letting me pick your brains. ~L.A. DelRay Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] what is the most primitve meteorite? or do we even know?
Hi L.A., Listees, Just the white powdery CAI material which represents a small fraction of Allende is the old snuff ... There are probably other carbonaceous chondrites of types similar to the age of Allende from the recent vast harvest of the deserts ... but I think scientists have a hard time splitting the hairs of the first couple of million years when they are just dealing with excess concretes that never were cleaned during the construction of this whole cool neighborhood of the Sun we live in. Bjurbole is a standard and older than the hills of the Solar Sytem, as well ... at least a standard to judge others: the oldies must all be aroound 4,566,500,000 years old. or maybe a million more. Telling the age of a meteorite is kind of challenging since they are heterogenious. For example, a person is born and grows based on an initial splitting of some strands of DNA. But if someone analyzed the ends of your hair, the might find you older than all the men on the list except Bob Haag and Ken (?), and Michael C. So how many inclusions floating out there in places no one expects, I couldn't guess ... that are older than old. Then, several listmembers may be older and know better, Best wishes and nice to see you posting, Doug -Original Message- From: Leigh Anne DelRay [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 2:22 am Subject: [meteorite-list] what is the most primitve meteorite? or do we even know? Dear Listees~ I was wondering if anyone knows what the oldest (as in most primitive) meteorite is? I was thinking it was Allende, b/c it is believed to be of extra-solar origin, but is there another one that is more primitive than that? Is there one that is older than our own solar system? Thanks for letting me pick your brains. ~L.A. DelRay _ ___ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] what is the most primitve meteorite? or do we even know?
Hi Doug, What about Tagish Lake? -Walter Branch - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 6:33 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] what is the most primitve meteorite? or do we even know? Hi L.A., Listees, Just the white powdery CAI material which represents a small fraction of Allende is the old snuff ... There are probably other carbonaceous chondrites of types similar to the age of Allende from the recent vast harvest of the deserts ... but I think scientists have a hard time splitting the hairs of the first couple of million years when they are just dealing with excess concretes that never were cleaned during the construction of this whole cool neighborhood of the Sun we live in. Bjurbole is a standard and older than the hills of the Solar Sytem, as well ... at least a standard to judge others: the oldies must all be aroound 4,566,500,000 years old. or maybe a million more. Telling the age of a meteorite is kind of challenging since they are heterogenious. For example, a person is born and grows based on an initial splitting of some strands of DNA. But if someone analyzed the ends of your hair, the might find you older than all the men on the list except Bob Haag and Ken (?), and Michael C. So how many inclusions floating out there in places no one expects, I couldn't guess ... that are older than old. Then, several listmembers may be older and know better, Best wishes and nice to see you posting, Doug -Original Message- From: Leigh Anne DelRay [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 2:22 am Subject: [meteorite-list] what is the most primitve meteorite? or do we even know? Dear Listees~ I was wondering if anyone knows what the oldest (as in most primitive) meteorite is? I was thinking it was Allende, b/c it is believed to be of extra-solar origin, but is there another one that is more primitive than that? Is there one that is older than our own solar system? Thanks for letting me pick your brains. ~L.A. DelRay _ ___ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] what is the most primitve meteorite? or do we even know?
You're right Walter! I don't know what can be measured as ages for pre-solar grains,other than their being classified by types, and rough ages of incorporation of the concretions (forming meteoroids which is of interest for the Solar System dymanics). Who's measured the date of last supernova that left residue in our pre-Solar nebula? Best wishes, great health, Doug -Original Message- From: Walter Branch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 6:42 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] what is the most primitve meteorite? or do we even know? Hi Doug, What about Tagish Lake? -Walter Branch - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 6:33 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] what is the most primitve meteorite? or do we even know? Hi L.A., Listees, Just the white powdery CAI material which represents a small fraction of Allende is the old snuff ... There are probably other carbonaceous chondrites of types similar to the age of Allende from the recent vast harvest of the deserts ... but I think scientists have a hard time splitting the hairs of the first couple of million years when they are just dealing with excess concretes that never were cleaned during the construction of this whole cool neighborhood of the Sun we live in. Bjurbole is a standard and older than the hills of the Solar Sytem, as well ... at least a standard to judge others: the oldies must all be aroound 4,566,500,000 years old. or maybe a million more. Telling the age of a meteorite is kind of challenging since they are heterogenious. For example, a person is born and grows based on an initial splitting of some strands of DNA. But if someone analyzed the ends of your hair, the might find you older than all the men on the list except Bob Haag and Ken (?), and Michael C. So how many inclusions floating out there in places no one expects, I couldn't guess ... that are older than old. Then, several listmembers may be older and know better, Best wishes and nice to see you posting, Doug -Original Message- From: Leigh Anne DelRay [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 2:22 am Subject: [meteorite-list] what is the most primitve meteorite? or do we even know? Dear Listees~ I was wondering if anyone knows what the oldest (as in most primitive) meteorite is? I was thinking it was Allende, b/c it is believed to be of extra-solar origin, but is there another one that is more primitive than that? Is there one that is older than our own solar system? Thanks for letting me pick your brains. ~L.A. DelRay _ ___ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] what is the most primitve meteorite? or do we even know?
Hi All, Here's a link to Eric's site stating Vigarano as the (consistently) oldest meteorite. Maybe Eric can shed more light on his statement. http://www.star-bits.com/VIGARANO.htm If interested, here is a Meteorite Times article addressing my 61g Vigarano slice and its acquisition. http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/August/Accretion_Desk.htm Cheers, Martin On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 5:43 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You're right Walter! I don't know what can be measured as ages for pre-solar grains,other than their being classified by types, and rough ages of incorporation of the concretions (forming meteoroids which is of interest for the Solar System dymanics). Who's measured the date of last supernova that left residue in our pre-Solar nebula? Best wishes, great health, Doug -Original Message- From: Walter Branch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 6:42 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] what is the most primitve meteorite? or do we even know? Hi Doug, What about Tagish Lake? -Walter Branch - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 6:33 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] what is the most primitve meteorite? or do we even know? Hi L.A., Listees, Just the white powdery CAI material which represents a small fraction of Allende is the old snuff ... There are probably other carbonaceous chondrites of types similar to the age of Allende from the recent vast harvest of the deserts ... but I think scientists have a hard time splitting the hairs of the first couple of million years when they are just dealing with excess concretes that never were cleaned during the construction of this whole cool neighborhood of the Sun we live in. Bjurbole is a standard and older than the hills of the Solar Sytem, as well ... at least a standard to judge others: the oldies must all be aroound 4,566,500,000 years old. or maybe a million more. Telling the age of a meteorite is kind of challenging since they are heterogenious. For example, a person is born and grows based on an initial splitting of some strands of DNA. But if someone analyzed the ends of your hair, the might find you older than all the men on the list except Bob Haag and Ken (?), and Michael C. So how many inclusions floating out there in places no one expects, I couldn't guess ... that are older than old. Then, several listmembers may be older and know better, Best wishes and nice to see you posting, Doug -Original Message- From: Leigh Anne DelRay [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 2:22 am Subject: [meteorite-list] what is the most primitve meteorite? or do we even know? Dear Listees~ I was wondering if anyone knows what the oldest (as in most primitive) meteorite is? I was thinking it was Allende, b/c it is believed to be of extra-solar origin, but is there another one that is more primitive than that? Is there one that is older than our own solar system? Thanks for letting me pick your brains. ~L.A. DelRay _ ___ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] what is the most primitve meteorite?
Yep - I reckon either Tagish or Orgueil. My 2mg worth Dave IMCA #0092 Sec.BIMS www.bimsociety.org __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] what is the most primitve meteorite?
There are two meanings to the word primitive that are in common use among researchers: 1) It means that the meteorite was relatively unaffected by secondary processes that occurred on asteroids, including thermal metamorphism, melting, shock effects, and aqueous alteration. These meteorites are the chondrites whose chondrules, CAIs, matrix, and presolar grains are in the most pristine condition. In this sense, the most primitive ordinary chondrite is Semarkona. There are several very primitive carbonaceous chondrites, including Acfer 094, Adelaide, ALHA 77307, and a few CR chondrites. Most of the meteorites people have mentioned in this thread are not particularly primitive by this definition. 2) It also can mean that the chemical composition of the meteorite is little different from that of the bulk solar system, as represented by the solar photosphere, minus the H and He. In this sense, the CI chondrites are the most primitive meteorites, with meteorites like Tagish Lake and CM chondrites in second place. Generally, age is not used to determine how primitive a meteorite may be. Indeed, recent data suggest that some primitive chondrites may actually be younger than some meteorites which formed by melting on asteroids. Jeff At 05:39 PM 4/15/2008, Dave Harris wrote: Yep - I reckon either Tagish or Orgueil. My 2mg worth Dave IMCA #0092 Sec.BIMS www.bimsociety.org __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184 US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383 954 National Center Reston, VA 20192, USA __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] what is the most primitve meteorite?
Has any SEMARKONA [Indian fall of 1940, type LL3.0 (S2)] ever been distributed to private collectors??? I very much doubt so. One of the next best primitive meteorites from Jeff´s first category, which has surely arrived at the collector´s scene, is the KRYMKA meteorite [Ukrainian fall of 1946, LL3.1 (S3)]. Yep, got my piece of this wonderful, pristine meteorite. :-) Alex Berlin/Germany 1) It means that the meteorite was relatively unaffected by secondary processes that occurred on asteroids, including thermal metamorphism, melting, shock effects, and aqueous alteration. These meteorites are the chondrites whose chondrules, CAIs, matrix, and presolar grains are in the most pristine condition. In this sense, the most primitive ordinary chondrite is Semarkona. There are several very primitive carbonaceous chondrites, including Acfer 094, Adelaide, ALHA 77307, and a few CR chondrites. Most of the meteorites people have mentioned in this thread are not particularly primitive by this definition. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] what is the most primitve meteorite?
Hi Alex, Ahhh Krymka. One of my favorites. Here's a pair of pics of my slice: http://www.meteorite.com/MT_links/2003/March/1krymka.jpg http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2002/December/2specimen01.jpg I got to visit Semarkona at the Smithsonian. It is a spiritual experience. I sent my pics to Joel in NZ for a Meteorite! article back in 1998 and have yet to make new ones. Those were back in the film days. Cheers, Martin On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 6:00 PM, Alexander Seidel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has any SEMARKONA [Indian fall of 1940, type LL3.0 (S2)] ever been distributed to private collectors??? I very much doubt so. One of the next best primitive meteorites from Jeff´s first category, which has surely arrived at the collector´s scene, is the KRYMKA meteorite [Ukrainian fall of 1946, LL3.1 (S3)]. Yep, got my piece of this wonderful, pristine meteorite. :-) Alex Berlin/Germany 1) It means that the meteorite was relatively unaffected by secondary processes that occurred on asteroids, including thermal metamorphism, melting, shock effects, and aqueous alteration. These meteorites are the chondrites whose chondrules, CAIs, matrix, and presolar grains are in the most pristine condition. In this sense, the most primitive ordinary chondrite is Semarkona. There are several very primitive carbonaceous chondrites, including Acfer 094, Adelaide, ALHA 77307, and a few CR chondrites. Most of the meteorites people have mentioned in this thread are not particularly primitive by this definition. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] what is the most primitve meteorite? or do we even know?
Dark Matter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's a link to Eric's site stating Vigarano as the (consistently) oldest meteorite. Maybe Eric can shed more light on his statement. Here is what I wrote on my web page. A case can be made for Vigarano being the oldest meteorite. Although older ages have been recorded for other meteorites they are isolated measurements and do not give as consistently an old age as does Vigarano. First let me say that my comments were about relative age and not how primitive vigarano is. As Jeff mentioned that is another matter entirely. Second there are different methods for determining age. Absolute age is how long ago something happened and is given by isotopes with long decay ages like Uranium-Lead. Relative ages at the beginning of the solar system are determined by extinct isotopes with short decay ages. The basic premise is that the solar system was salted with a dose of these isotopes and as time passes there is less and less of the isotope that is decaying. So the earlier a solid forms the more of this isotope it has and as a result there is more of the decay product locked into the structure of the solid. So for relative ages one meteorite was picked as the zero point and the rest are either younger or older in relation to it. For the life of me I can't remember what was used as the zero point The third point is that there are different sampling methods. A sample can be either whole rock ie representative of the meteorite as a whole or samples of specific parts, clasts, CAIs etc. So if you are aging samples taken from different points on a meteorite they can give different ages if you are sampling a CAI or a part that accreated slightly earlier or later than the rest of the meteorite. At the time my statement was written (6 or 7 years ago) I was told that there were samples that were older than vigarano however those early dates were not representative or consistent for those meteorites as a whole. Vigarano however gave consistently old relative dates even if they were not the the oldest ever recorded. That is the basis of my statement. However 6 or 7 years is a long time in the science of meteorites, does anybody know of any research that makes my statement invalid today? -- Eric Olson 7682 Firethorn Dr Fayetteville, NC 28311 http://www.star-bits.com __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
