Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion crust on irons?
Ever see a good, fresh Sikhote-Aline? I am sure several list members can refer you to several very Cool photos. I am sure there are others but they don't jump to the mind Of this dude at this time ~ S-A is Classic for iron fusion crust. Michael On 5/23/11 3:02 AM, Melanie Matthews miss_meteor...@yahoo.ca wrote: Good morning list, Do freshly fallen irons and stony-irons, have any kind of crust on them? if they do, what does the crust typically look like on these meteorites? I can recall seeing charred iron before... --- -Melanie MetMel - avid meteorite collector/enthusiast from Canada! IMCA#: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 I eat, sleep and breath meteorites 24/7. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Some people are born on third base and go through life thinking they hit a triple. Bob Dylan __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion crust on irons?
Hi Melanie, I made a webpage (including macro and microscope photos) to answer this question some time ago: http://www.asteroidchippings.com/Special_topics/Sikhote_Alin_Crust.html Furthermore Svend Buhl has some great webpages about crusts in general, that are more than worth a visit: http://www.niger-meteorite-recon.de/en/Meteorite_fusion_crust_1.htm All the best, Rob Lenssen -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Namens Melanie Matthews Verzonden: maandag 23 mei 2011 12:02 Aan: Meteorite List Onderwerp: [meteorite-list] Fusion crust on irons? Good morning list, Do freshly fallen irons and stony-irons, have any kind of crust on them? if they do, what does the crust typically look like on these meteorites? I can recall seeing charred iron before... --- -Melanie MetMel - avid meteorite collector/enthusiast from Canada! IMCA#: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 I eat, sleep and breath meteorites 24/7. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion crust on irons?
Aloha Rob, Thank you for those great links, and I like your pictures of your Sikhotes. Svend's website is a great resource for information, and his article on fusion crusts are no exception. I have a couple of irons that exhibit fresh blue-gray fusion crust. Here is an NWA 854 Ziz iron of 255.1g that can be seen here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1971905062670.2120065.1394318075l=874c7854a2 The best picture where the fusion crust can be readily seen is on this picture where portions of the crust have mechanically worn off: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1971905422679set=a.1971905062670.2120065.1394318075type=1theater Here is a 203g Sikhote Alin, where you can see the fusion crust has flaked off the surface in areas: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1699104082816.2098583.1394318075l=f4318b09bb Finally here is a 264g spaceship Sikhote with pristine fusion crust over its entire surface: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1715927063380.2099696.1394318075l=c9d8f5b787 I have others, but its sometimes very difficult to capture well photographically (although easy to see in hand with your eyes). Hope this helps. gary On May 23, 2011, at 7:05 AM, Rob Lenssen wrote: Hi Melanie, I made a webpage (including macro and microscope photos) to answer this question some time ago: http://www.asteroidchippings.com/Special_topics/Sikhote_Alin_Crust.html Furthermore Svend Buhl has some great webpages about crusts in general, that are more than worth a visit: http://www.niger-meteorite-recon.de/en/Meteorite_fusion_crust_1.htm All the best, Rob Lenssen -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Namens Melanie Matthews Verzonden: maandag 23 mei 2011 12:02 Aan: Meteorite List Onderwerp: [meteorite-list] Fusion crust on irons? Good morning list, Do freshly fallen irons and stony-irons, have any kind of crust on them? if they do, what does the crust typically look like on these meteorites? I can recall seeing charred iron before... --- -Melanie MetMel - avid meteorite collector/enthusiast from Canada! IMCA#: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 I eat, sleep and breath meteorites 24/7. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Gary Fujihara Big Kahuna Meteorites (IMCA#1693) 105 Puhili Place, Hilo, Hawai'i 96720 http://bigkahuna-meteorites.com/ http://shop.ebay.com/fujmon/m.html (808) 640-9161 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not
Hi Elton, I think it is that thin coating of magnetite that most folks are calling a fusion crust on fresh irons...what else can it be called? As you say, unfortunately it is quite fragile and on most irons it flakes or comes off after very little time in our climate, so most of those wonderful looking sikhote alins at the shows have actually been cleaned and treated and have lost the magnetite 'fusion crust'. I have seen many with remnants which you can see still peeling off but rarely in their pristine matt grey original state. Also, as you say, those flow lines can be still present mostly underneath when the magnetite/crust has gone but are I think much more detailed and sharp when the magnetite coating is fresh. If you know of a different name/term to call the magnetite coating on fresh irons other than fusion crust then I am sure we would all like to know what we should call it? Regards, Graham MEM mstrema...@yahoo.com wrote: Stopping in a few minutes to state again that all this discussion about fusion crust on irons is right next to unicorns postulations. Everyone says that fusion crust on irons exists but no one can come up with the proof. Non-silicate bearing irons DO NOT/CANNOT have FUSION crust: they have a very fragile magentite micro-crystal film and they have an ablation surface but, they can't by definition have a fusion crust and no matter whom the expert quoted they still do not have a fusion crust. A fusion crust has to have a silicate source to for the glass component of the crust-- Nada, Nix, No How. Both silicate and non-silicate meteorites have an ablated/ablation surface, and they can show flight features--but not all meteorites have a fusion crust. I have some OCs which have flow lines UNDER the fusion crust remnants. If anyone still defends the presence of fusion crust on (non-silicate bearing) irons then show me the crust...can't?..ok show me the glass? right then-- no photos, no thin sections, no micro graphs???..And while there was one close up of an ablated surface showing soft wavy lines of briefly melted metal that was aligned to aerodynamic vectors--This does not fusion crust make. Unlike in politics and public opinion, in science, no matter how often an untruth is repeated it doesn't become truth by majority belief. But science, being a human endeavor, sometimes can find itself off track and when it does it accepts the error and gets back on track. Elton __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not
Unlike in politics and public opinion (and sometimes in science), in meteoritics it sometimes can be more difficult to adhere to theories/legends, if one gets samples in ones very hands, which exhibit the opposite of that, the theory postulates. If you ever had an early picked Sikhote at hand, or if you had taken from Andi Gren's Boguslavka slices (a fall, who simply hadn't enough time in field, to develop a magnetite, wuestite, limonite or whatever -ite weathering crust), you would be very surprised. Cause they don't display that ominous blue-ish flimsy luster, which is often reported as fusion crust, but a thick and fat layer of a discernibly different matter than the material beneath, of a dark colour and rough to silky surface. I never believed in iron fusion crusts neither, but when I got in these freshly picked up observed falls, I was disabused. Main problem in that question is, as it was correctly mentioned here, that we simply have so few pristine samples of fresh iron falls and that most irons we get in our collections arrive with weathered or artificially cleaned surfaces. Now you may argue about the word crust as a (pseudo-)scientific term... well for me scientific terms are best, when they keep most of their meaning they have in their common use in the language. And there crust - meanst for me a layer on the outside of an object. .and we have the problem, that there exist these freshly fallen lumps with that strange crust. Shall we hide them in the deepest corner of our drawers, cause they don't fit in the axiom, that fusion crusts are fusion crusts only, when silicates are melting? Sometimes, if the results don't fit into a theory, one has to think about modifying the theory, Else there wouldn't be no meteorites in our sense at all, Nada, Niente, Nix, Nimic, cause we all would know that they are products of our Aristotelian atmosphere, solified accumulations of terrestrial vapours and probably created by lightning strokes, wouldn't we? Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von MEM Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. November 2009 04:31 An: Meteorites USA; metlist Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not Stopping in a few minutes to state again that all this discussion about fusion crust on irons is right next to unicorns postulations. Everyone says that fusion crust on irons exists but no one can come up with the proof. Non-silicate bearing irons DO NOT/CANNOT have FUSION crust: they have a very fragile magentite micro-crystal film and they have an ablation surface but, they can't by definition have a fusion crust and no matter whom the expert quoted they still do not have a fusion crust. A fusion crust has to have a silicate source to for the glass component of the crust-- Nada, Nix, No How. Both silicate and non-silicate meteorites have an ablated/ablation surface, and they can show flight features--but not all meteorites have a fusion crust. I have some OCs which have flow lines UNDER the fusion crust remnants. If anyone still defends the presence of fusion crust on (non-silicate bearing) irons then show me the crust...can't?..ok show me the glass? right then-- no photos, no thin sections, no micro graphs???..And while there was one close up of an ablated surface showing soft wavy lines of briefly melted metal that was aligned to aerodynamic vectors--This does not fusion crust make. Unlike in politics and public opinion, in science, no matter how often an untruth is repeated it doesn't become truth by majority belief. But science, being a human endeavor, sometimes can find itself off track and when it does it accepts the error and gets back on track. Elton __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not
Elton: Take a look - the Smithsonian classifies the meteorites from Antarctica and some of the Irons are described as having a fusion crust. Greg S. http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/antmet/samples/petdes.cfm?sample=MIL07666 Sample Number MIL 07666 Pairing MIL 07666 Newsletter 31,2 Location Miller Range Field Number 18159 Dimensions 5.0 x 2.9 x 1.4 Weight 96.25 Original Classification Iron (IIAB) Macroscopic Description - Cari Corrigan and Linda Welzenbach This lozenge-shaped meteorite is flight oriented with a slight melt flange on the top side. The bottom or flight surface is finely pitted, the top side smoother but with sporadic, deeper regmaglypts. Fusion crust is 100% and exhibits mild oxidation in the form of iridescence and minor halos. Thin Section Description - Tim McCoy, Cari Corrigan and Linda Welzenbach The meteorite was examined from a cut and etched surface, which bisected one end or nose of the specimen. A thin fusion crust is preserved over most of the meteorite, and gradational heat alteration zone of approximately 1.0-2 mm thick underlies the fusion crust on the bottom or flight side, and is less than 0.3 mm thick on the top side. A prominent coarse a2 structure is found throughout. The section exhibits subequant grains ranging up to 1 mm in size which meet at 120° triple j Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:30:39 -0800 From: mstrema...@yahoo.com To: e...@meteoritesusa.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not Stopping in a few minutes to state again that all this discussion about fusion crust on irons is right next to unicorns postulations. Everyone says that fusion crust on irons exists but no one can come up with the proof. Non-silicate bearing irons DO NOT/CANNOT have FUSION crust: they have a very fragile magentite micro-crystal film and they have an ablation surface but, they can't by definition have a fusion crust and no matter whom the expert quoted they still do not have a fusion crust. A fusion crust has to have a silicate source to for the glass component of the crust-- Nada, Nix, No How. Both silicate and non-silicate meteorites have an ablated/ablation surface, and they can show flight features--but not all meteorites have a fusion crust. I have some OCs which have flow lines UNDER the fusion crust remnants. If anyone still defends the presence of fusion crust on (non-silicate bearing) irons then show me the crust...can't?..ok show me the glass? right then-- no photos, no thin sections, no micro graphs???..And while there was one close up of an ablated surface showing soft wavy lines of briefly melted metal that was aligned to aerodynamic vectors--This does not fusion crust make. Unlike in politics and public opinion, in science, no matter how often an untruth is repeated it doesn't become truth by majority belief. But science, being a human endeavor, sometimes can find itself off track and when it does it accepts the error and gets back on track. Elton __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not
It seems it depends on what your definition of is, is? If your definition of fusion crust is that it contains silicates then by your definition irons cannot have a fusion crust. They undeniably can have a layer of atmospherically melted then cooled material that formed from the unaltered underlying iron meteor. It forms in an identical fashion to Fusion crust on stony meteors! Call it peanut butter or blue cheese it doesn't matter to me. Irons have fusion crust in my book. Regards Fred Olsen -- Original message -- From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de Unlike in politics and public opinion (and sometimes in science), in meteoritics it sometimes can be more difficult to adhere to theories/legends, if one gets samples in ones very hands, which exhibit the opposite of that, the theory postulates. If you ever had an early picked Sikhote at hand, or if you had taken from Andi Gren's Boguslavka slices (a fall, who simply hadn't enough time in field, to develop a magnetite, wuestite, limonite or whatever -ite weathering crust), you would be very surprised. Cause they don't display that ominous blue-ish flimsy luster, which is often reported as fusion crust, but a thick and fat layer of a discernibly different matter than the material beneath, of a dark colour and rough to silky surface. I never believed in iron fusion crusts neither, but when I got in these freshly picked up observed falls, I was disabused. Main problem in that question is, as it was correctly mentioned here, that we simply have so few pristine samples of fresh iron falls and that most irons we get in our collections arrive with weathered or artificially cleaned surfaces. Now you may argue about the word crust as a (pseudo-)scientific term... well for me scientific terms are best, when they keep most of their meaning they have in their common use in the language. And there crust - meanst for me a layer on the outside of an object. .and we have the problem, that there exist these freshly fallen lumps with that strange crust. Shall we hide them in the deepest corner of our drawers, cause they don't fit in the axiom, that fusion crusts are fusion crusts only, when silicates are melting? Sometimes, if the results don't fit into a theory, one has to think about modifying the theory, Else there wouldn't be no meteorites in our sense at all, Nada, Niente, Nix, Nimic, cause we all would know that they are products of our Aristotelian atmosphere, solified accumulations of terrestrial vapours and probably created by lightning strokes, wouldn't we? Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von MEM Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. November 2009 04:31 An: Meteorites USA; metlist Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not Stopping in a few minutes to state again that all this discussion about fusion crust on irons is right next to unicorns postulations. Everyone says that fusion crust on irons exists but no one can come up with the proof. Non-silicate bearing irons DO NOT/CANNOT have FUSION crust: they have a very fragile magentite micro-crystal film and they have an ablation surface but, they can't by definition have a fusion crust and no matter whom the expert quoted they still do not have a fusion crust. A fusion crust has to have a silicate source to for the glass component of the crust-- Nada, Nix, No How. Both silicate and non-silicate meteorites have an ablated/ablation surface, and they can show flight features--but not all meteorites have a fusion crust. I have some OCs which have flow lines UNDER the fusion crust remnants. If anyone still defends the presence of fusion crust on (non-silicate bearing) irons then show me the crust...can't?..ok show me the glass? right then-- no photos, no thin sections, no micro graphs???..And while there was one close up of an ablated surface showing soft wavy lines of briefly melted metal that was aligned to aerodynamic vectors--This does not fusion crust make. Unlike in politics and public opinion, in science, no matter how often an untruth is repeated it doesn't become truth by majority belief. But science, being a human endeavor, sometimes can find itself off track and when it does it accepts the error and gets back on track. Elton __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons - Krinov quoted
Let's see what Russian Scientist, and 1947 Sikhote Alin expedition member, Dr. Krinov wrote about SA's crust: From Krinov's book Giant meteorites (English edition 1966) page 346: The collection of small specimens lying strewn on the surface of the ground, mainly in the rear part of the distribution ellipse, was carried out during the First expedition of 1947, immediately after the snow had melted. The meteorites picked up under these conditions had preserved the most varied, extremely delicate patterns on the fusion crust (Fig. 238, 239). On many small specimens picked up from the surface of the ground covered with old leaves, dry grass, etc., quite well-marked bluish violet tints were preserved in the ash-grey fusion crust. The meteorites stood out sharply against the yellowish-brown background of the forest carpet because of their colour and even the very small ones, a few centimeters across or less (Fig. 193), were easily visible from a distance of several yards. (Note: The first expedition arrived two and a half months after the fall.) From Krinov's article Neue Untersuchungen des Niedergangs und Sammlung von Teilen des Eisenmeteoritenregens von Sichote-Alin (Chemie de Erde; 1970) page 250, reporting about the 1967 and later expeditions. (Note: I translated this from German): During their twenty year stay in the soil, the collected whole individuals have been covered by a thin oxidation layer and are colored brownish. Yet many have areas that have not been covered by oxidation and have kept their original dark grey color of the fusion crust. I think this was ment here: http://home.planet.nl/~rlenssen/SA_216g/216g_Sikhote_Alin.html All the best, Rob Lenssen - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not Unlike in politics and public opinion (and sometimes in science), in meteoritics it sometimes can be more difficult to adhere to theories/legends, if one gets samples in ones very hands, which exhibit the opposite of that, the theory postulates. If you ever had an early picked Sikhote at hand, or if you had taken from Andi Gren's Boguslavka slices (a fall, who simply hadn't enough time in field, to develop a magnetite, wuestite, limonite or whatever -ite weathering crust), you would be very surprised. Cause they don't display that ominous blue-ish flimsy luster, which is often reported as fusion crust, but a thick and fat layer of a discernibly different matter than the material beneath, of a dark colour and rough to silky surface. I never believed in iron fusion crusts neither, but when I got in these freshly picked up observed falls, I was disabused. Main problem in that question is, as it was correctly mentioned here, that we simply have so few pristine samples of fresh iron falls and that most irons we get in our collections arrive with weathered or artificially cleaned surfaces. Now you may argue about the word crust as a (pseudo-)scientific term... well for me scientific terms are best, when they keep most of their meaning they have in their common use in the language. And there crust - meanst for me a layer on the outside of an object. .and we have the problem, that there exist these freshly fallen lumps with that strange crust. Shall we hide them in the deepest corner of our drawers, cause they don't fit in the axiom, that fusion crusts are fusion crusts only, when silicates are melting? Sometimes, if the results don't fit into a theory, one has to think about modifying the theory, Else there wouldn't be no meteorites in our sense at all, Nada, Niente, Nix, Nimic, cause we all would know that they are products of our Aristotelian atmosphere, solified accumulations of terrestrial vapours and probably created by lightning strokes, wouldn't we? Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von MEM Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. November 2009 04:31 An: Meteorites USA; metlist Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not Stopping in a few minutes to state again that all this discussion about fusion crust on irons is right next to unicorns postulations. Everyone says that fusion crust on irons exists but no one can come up with the proof. Non-silicate bearing irons DO NOT/CANNOT have FUSION crust: they have a very fragile magentite micro-crystal film and they have an ablation surface but, they can't by definition have a fusion crust and no matter whom the expert quoted they still do not have a fusion crust. A fusion crust has to have a silicate source to for the glass component of the crust-- Nada, Nix, No How. Both silicate and non-silicate meteorites have an ablated/ablation surface, and they can show flight features--but not all meteorites have a fusion
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not
If I'm not mistaken. The crust shown on Sikhotes may well be a true fusion
crust because sikhote does contain some silicate minerals within it.
It is the irons without silicates that cannot produce a true fusion crust. And
as Elton said, Nobody has ever shown one of these non-silicate irons with
fusion crust. In fact the two examples shown are the only examples I have ever
seen of any type of iron meteorite with fusion crust, not counting true
silicated irons of course.
Does anyone have other pictures of any irons with fusion crusts to share?
Thanks Carl
--
Carl or Debbie Esparza
Meteoritemax
ensorama...@ntlworld.com wrote:
Hi Elton,
I think it is that thin coating of magnetite that most folks are calling a
fusion crust on fresh irons...what else can it be called?
As you say, unfortunately it is quite fragile and on most irons it flakes or
comes off after very little time in our climate, so most of those wonderful
looking sikhote alins at the shows have actually been cleaned and treated and
have lost the magnetite 'fusion crust'. I have seen many with remnants which
you can see still peeling off but rarely in their pristine matt grey original
state. Also, as you say, those flow lines can be still present mostly
underneath when the magnetite/crust has gone but are I think much more
detailed and sharp when the magnetite coating is fresh.
If you know of a different name/term to call the magnetite coating on fresh
irons other than fusion crust then I am sure we would all like to know what
we should call it?
Regards,
Graham
MEM mstrema...@yahoo.com wrote:
Stopping in a few minutes to state again that all this discussion about
fusion crust on irons is right next to unicorns postulations. Everyone
says that fusion crust on irons exists but no one can come up with the
proof. Non-silicate bearing irons DO NOT/CANNOT have FUSION crust: they
have a very fragile magentite micro-crystal film and they have an
ablation surface but, they can't by definition have a fusion crust and no
matter whom the expert quoted they still do not have a fusion crust. A
fusion crust has to have a silicate source to for the glass component of
the crust-- Nada, Nix, No How.
Both silicate and non-silicate meteorites have an ablated/ablation surface,
and they can show flight features--but not all meteorites have a fusion
crust. I have some OCs which have flow lines UNDER the fusion crust
remnants.
If anyone still defends the presence of fusion crust on (non-silicate
bearing) irons then show me the crust...can't?..ok show me the glass?
right then-- no photos, no thin sections, no micro graphs???..And
while there was one close up of an ablated surface showing soft wavy lines
of briefly melted metal that was aligned to aerodynamic vectors--This does
not fusion crust make.
Unlike in politics and public opinion, in science, no matter how often an
untruth is repeated it doesn't become truth by majority belief. But
science, being a human endeavor, sometimes can find itself off track and
when it does it accepts the error and gets back on track.
Elton
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Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not
Carl, I need some help here. Which one of these elements or minerals is in the silicate group? Sikhote-Alin is a coarse iron octahedrite. Its composition is as follows: 5.9% nickel, 0.42 % cobalt, 0.46% phosphorus, 0.28% sulfur, smaller amounts of germanium and iridium, and the remainder (approximately 93%) is iron. The following minerals are present: taenite, plessite, rhabites, troilite, chromite, kamacite, and schreibersite crystals. ... Regards, Fred -- Original message -- From: cdtuc...@cox.net If I'm not mistaken. The crust shown on Sikhotes may well be a true fusion crust because sikhote does contain some silicate minerals within it. It is the irons without silicates that cannot produce a true fusion crust. And as Elton said, Nobody has ever shown one of these non-silicate irons with fusion crust. In fact the two examples shown are the only examples I have ever seen of any type of iron meteorite with fusion crust, not counting true silicated irons of course. Does anyone have other pictures of any irons with fusion crusts to share? Thanks Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax ensorama...@ntlworld.com wrote: Hi Elton, I think it is that thin coating of magnetite that most folks are calling a fusion crust on fresh irons...what else can it be called? As you say, unfortunately it is quite fragile and on most irons it flakes or comes off after very little time in our climate, so most of those wonderful looking sikhote alins at the shows have actually been cleaned and treated and have lost the magnetite 'fusion crust'. I have seen many with remnants which you can see still peeling off but rarely in their pristine matt grey original state. Also, as you say, those flow lines can be still present mostly underneath when the magnetite/crust has gone but are I think much more detailed and sharp when the magnetite coating is fresh. If you know of a different name/term to call the magnetite coating on fresh irons other than fusion crust then I am sure we would all like to know what we should call it? Regards, Graham MEM mstrema...@yahoo.com wrote: Stopping in a few minutes to state again that all this discussion about fusion crust on irons is right next to unicorns postulations. Everyone says that fusion crust on irons exists but no one can come up with the proof. Non-silicate bearing irons DO NOT/CANNOT have FUSION crust: they have a very fragile magentite micro-crystal film and they have an ablation surface but, they can't by definition have a fusion crust and no matter whom the expert quoted they still do not have a fusion crust. A fusion crust has to have a silicate source to for the glass component of the crust-- Nada, Nix, No How. Both silicate and non-silicate meteorites have an ablated/ablation surface, and they can show flight features--but not all meteorites have a fusion crust. I have some OCs which have flow lines UNDER the fusion crust remnants. If anyone still defends the presence of fusion crust on (non-silicate bearing) irons then show me the crust...can't?..ok show me the glass? right then-- no photos, no thin sections, no micro graphs???..And while there was one close up of an ablated surface showing soft wavy lines of briefly melted metal that was aligned to aerodynamic vectors--This does not fusion crust make. Unlike in politics and public opinion, in science, no matter how often an untruth is repeated it doesn't become truth by majority belief. But science, being a human endeavor, sometimes can find itself off track and when it does it accepts the error and gets back on track. Elton __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not
Because there has been a vacuum in accurate description and cataloging of flight/ablation features not withstanding Nininger's Surface Features of Meteorites-- the term fusion crust has been adapted to irons but it still isn't correct. As I mentioned even experts misuse terms and concepts occasionally. If I've time later tonight to respond to Martin's post, I'll list a few possible terms that we need to make operational by defining them so we can discuss the components of the zone affected by reentry forces. Elton --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Greg Stanley stanleygr...@hotmail.com wrote: From: Greg Stanley stanleygr...@hotmail.com Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not To: mstrema...@yahoo.com, e...@meteoritesusa.com, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 9:04 AM Elton: Take a look - the Smithsonian classifies the meteorites from Antarctica and some of the Irons are described as having a fusion crust. Greg S. http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/antmet/samples/petdes.cfm?sample=MIL07666 Sample Number MIL 07666 Pairing MIL 07666 Newsletter 31,2 Location Miller Range Field Number 18159 Dimensions 5.0 x 2.9 x 1.4 Weight 96.25 Original Classification Iron (IIAB) Macroscopic Description - Cari Corrigan and Linda Welzenbach This lozenge-shaped meteorite is flight oriented with a slight melt flange on the top side. The bottom or flight surface is finely pitted, the top side smoother but with sporadic, deeper regmaglypts. Fusion crust is 100% and exhibits mild oxidation in the form of iridescence and minor halos. Thin Section Description - Tim McCoy, Cari Corrigan and Linda Welzenbach The meteorite was examined from a cut and etched surface, which bisected one end or nose of the specimen. A thin fusion crust is preserved over most of the meteorite, and gradational heat alteration zone of approximately 1.0-2 mm thick underlies the fusion crust on the bottom or flight side, and is less than 0.3 mm thick on the top side. A prominent coarse a2 structure is found throughout. The section exhibits subequant grains ranging up to 1 mm in size which meet at 120° triple j Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:30:39 -0800 From: mstrema...@yahoo.com To: e...@meteoritesusa.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not Stopping in a few minutes to state again that all this discussion about fusion crust on irons is right next to unicorns postulations. Everyone says that fusion crust on irons exists but no one can come up with the proof. Non-silicate bearing irons DO NOT/CANNOT have FUSION crust: they have a very fragile magentite micro-crystal film and they have an ablation surface but, they can't by definition have a fusion crust and no matter whom the expert quoted they still do not have a fusion crust. A fusion crust has to have a silicate source to for the glass component of the crust-- Nada, Nix, No How. Both silicate and non-silicate meteorites have an ablated/ablation surface, and they can show flight features--but not all meteorites have a fusion crust. I have some OCs which have flow lines UNDER the fusion crust remnants. If anyone still defends the presence of fusion crust on (non-silicate bearing) irons then show me the crust...can't?..ok show me the glass? right then-- no photos, no thin sections, no micro graphs???..And while there was one close up of an ablated surface showing soft wavy lines of briefly melted metal that was aligned to aerodynamic vectors--This does not fusion crust make. Unlike in politics and public opinion, in science, no matter how often an untruth is repeated it doesn't become truth by majority belief. But science, being a human endeavor, sometimes can find itself off track and when it does it accepts the error and gets back on track. Elton __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not
Hi there, don't get me wrong, I don't have the intension to convince anybody... infact it took me 2 decades or so, until I had had some examples of iron fusion crust in my hands, which I couldn't ignore any longer :-) Hmm - let's be patient, I think it's high time for a new iron fall, isn't it? Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von MEM Gesendet: Freitag, 20. November 2009 02:04 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Greg Stanley Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not Because there has been a vacuum in accurate description and cataloging of flight/ablation features not withstanding Nininger's Surface Features of Meteorites-- the term fusion crust has been adapted to irons but it still isn't correct. As I mentioned even experts misuse terms and concepts occasionally. If I've time later tonight to respond to Martin's post, I'll list a few possible terms that we need to make operational by defining them so we can discuss the components of the zone affected by reentry forces. Elton --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Greg Stanley stanleygr...@hotmail.com wrote: From: Greg Stanley stanleygr...@hotmail.com Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not To: mstrema...@yahoo.com, e...@meteoritesusa.com, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 9:04 AM Elton: Take a look - the Smithsonian classifies the meteorites from Antarctica and some of the Irons are described as having a fusion crust. Greg S. http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/antmet/samples/petdes.cfm?sample=MIL07666 Sample Number MIL 07666 Pairing MIL 07666 Newsletter 31,2 Location Miller Range Field Number 18159 Dimensions 5.0 x 2.9 x 1.4 Weight 96.25 Original Classification Iron (IIAB) Macroscopic Description - Cari Corrigan and Linda Welzenbach This lozenge-shaped meteorite is flight oriented with a slight melt flange on the top side. The bottom or flight surface is finely pitted, the top side smoother but with sporadic, deeper regmaglypts. Fusion crust is 100% and exhibits mild oxidation in the form of iridescence and minor halos. Thin Section Description - Tim McCoy, Cari Corrigan and Linda Welzenbach The meteorite was examined from a cut and etched surface, which bisected one end or nose of the specimen. A thin fusion crust is preserved over most of the meteorite, and gradational heat alteration zone of approximately 1.0-2 mm thick underlies the fusion crust on the bottom or flight side, and is less than 0.3 mm thick on the top side. A prominent coarse a2 structure is found throughout. The section exhibits subequant grains ranging up to 1 mm in size which meet at 120° triple j Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:30:39 -0800 From: mstrema...@yahoo.com To: e...@meteoritesusa.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not Stopping in a few minutes to state again that all this discussion about fusion crust on irons is right next to unicorns postulations. Everyone says that fusion crust on irons exists but no one can come up with the proof. Non-silicate bearing irons DO NOT/CANNOT have FUSION crust: they have a very fragile magentite micro-crystal film and they have an ablation surface but, they can't by definition have a fusion crust and no matter whom the expert quoted they still do not have a fusion crust. A fusion crust has to have a silicate source to for the glass component of the crust-- Nada, Nix, No How. Both silicate and non-silicate meteorites have an ablated/ablation surface, and they can show flight features--but not all meteorites have a fusion crust. I have some OCs which have flow lines UNDER the fusion crust remnants. If anyone still defends the presence of fusion crust on (non-silicate bearing) irons then show me the crust...can't?..ok show me the glass? right then-- no photos, no thin sections, no micro graphs???..And while there was one close up of an ablated surface showing soft wavy lines of briefly melted metal that was aligned to aerodynamic vectors--This does not fusion crust make. Unlike in politics and public opinion, in science, no matter how often an untruth is repeated it doesn't become truth by majority belief. But science, being a human endeavor, sometimes can find itself off track and when it does it accepts the error and gets back on track. Elton __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not
Stopping in a few minutes to state again that all this discussion about fusion crust on irons is right next to unicorns postulations. Everyone says that fusion crust on irons exists but no one can come up with the proof. Non-silicate bearing irons DO NOT/CANNOT have FUSION crust: they have a very fragile magentite micro-crystal film and they have an ablation surface but, they can't by definition have a fusion crust and no matter whom the expert quoted they still do not have a fusion crust. A fusion crust has to have a silicate source to for the glass component of the crust-- Nada, Nix, No How. Both silicate and non-silicate meteorites have an ablated/ablation surface, and they can show flight features--but not all meteorites have a fusion crust. I have some OCs which have flow lines UNDER the fusion crust remnants. If anyone still defends the presence of fusion crust on (non-silicate bearing) irons then show me the crust...can't?..ok show me the glass? right then-- no photos, no thin sections, no micro graphs???..And while there was one close up of an ablated surface showing soft wavy lines of briefly melted metal that was aligned to aerodynamic vectors--This does not fusion crust make. Unlike in politics and public opinion, in science, no matter how often an untruth is repeated it doesn't become truth by majority belief. But science, being a human endeavor, sometimes can find itself off track and when it does it accepts the error and gets back on track. Elton __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Fat, dull, rough, dark-grey to dark-brown. Boguslavka: http://www.fmm.ru/metpictures/bogus.jpg Cabin Creek http://www.austromet.com/Museum_24082005_07.jpg Treysa http://www.gi-po.de/meteorit_treysa_1g.jpg Sikhote-Alin http://www.spacerocksinc.com/Dec1.html and so on. Cheers, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Meteorites USA Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 18:18 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi all, With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote Alin meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks like on an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not like the Sikhote. Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an ordinary chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen iron meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin meteorite? Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Hi Martin, Thank you for sharing... Those photos are a little too distant to see any detail... I can see it has a satin like, or velvety like surface, but a closeup of the surface detail is what I was looking for. Anyone? Those are gorgeous irons by the way! Regards, Eric Martin Altmann wrote: Fat, dull, rough, dark-grey to dark-brown. Boguslavka: http://www.fmm.ru/metpictures/bogus.jpg Cabin Creek http://www.austromet.com/Museum_24082005_07.jpg Treysa http://www.gi-po.de/meteorit_treysa_1g.jpg Sikhote-Alin http://www.spacerocksinc.com/Dec1.html and so on. Cheers, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Meteorites USA Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 18:18 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi all, With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote Alin meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks like on an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not like the Sikhote. Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an ordinary chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen iron meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin meteorite? Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Well for close-ups you have to come to Vienna, the most beautiful display hall for meteorites on Earth - with a lot of iron falls. Best is, you're planning your visit to Ensiheim with a stop-over in Vienna before. :-) Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Meteorites USA Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 18:48 An: Martin Altmann Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi Martin, Thank you for sharing... Those photos are a little too distant to see any detail... I can see it has a satin like, or velvety like surface, but a closeup of the surface detail is what I was looking for. Anyone? Those are gorgeous irons by the way! Regards, Eric Martin Altmann wrote: Fat, dull, rough, dark-grey to dark-brown. Boguslavka: http://www.fmm.ru/metpictures/bogus.jpg Cabin Creek http://www.austromet.com/Museum_24082005_07.jpg Treysa http://www.gi-po.de/meteorit_treysa_1g.jpg Sikhote-Alin http://www.spacerocksinc.com/Dec1.html and so on. Cheers, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Meteorites USA Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 18:18 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi all, With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote Alin meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks like on an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not like the Sikhote. Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an ordinary chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen iron meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin meteorite? Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Good example of S-A: http://www.flickr.com/photos/30591...@n04/2983976145/sizes/o/ Michael Johnson http://www.rocksfromspace.org - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:34:47 PM (GMT-0500) America/New_York Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Fat, dull, rough, dark-grey to dark-brown. Boguslavka: http://www.fmm.ru/metpictures/bogus.jpg Cabin Creek http://www.austromet.com/Museum_24082005_07.jpg Treysa http://www.gi-po.de/meteorit_treysa_1g.jpg Sikhote-Alin http://www.spacerocksinc.com/Dec1.html and so on. Cheers, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Meteorites USA Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 18:18 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi all, With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote Alin meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks like on an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not like the Sikhote. Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an ordinary chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen iron meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin meteorite? Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Hi Eric, Here are a few closeup pics of fusion crust on the iron named Bogou: http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2009/august/Accretion_Desk.htm Best, Martin H. On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com wrote: Hi all, With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote Alin meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks like on an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not like the Sikhote. Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an ordinary chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen iron meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin meteorite? Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Aloha Tomek and Martin, what marvelous examples of fusion crust with flowlines on iron meteorites. Thank you for sharing those images with the list. *now if only I could get them to share their specimens with me* ;^) gary On Nov 17, 2009, at 8:19 AM, Tomasz Jakubowski wrote: Hello, also good example of Sikhote : http://picasaweb.google.pl/illaenus/SikhoteAlin230grams# Kind Regards Tomek Jakubowski IMCA #2321 Dnia 17-11-2009 o godz. 18:59 Michael Johnson napisał(a): Good example of S-A: http://www.flickr.com/photos/30591...@n04/2983976145/sizes/o/ Michael Johnson http://www.rocksfromspace.org - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:34:47 PM (GMT-0500) America/New_York Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Fat, dull, rough, dark-grey to dark-brown. Boguslavka: http://www.fmm.ru/metpictures/bogus.jpg Cabin Creek http://www.austromet.com/Museum_24082005_07.jpg Treysa http://www.gi-po.de/meteorit_treysa_1g.jpg Sikhote-Alin http://www.spacerocksinc.com/Dec1.html and so on. Cheers, Martin -UrsprĂźngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Meteorites USA Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 18:18 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi all, With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote Alin meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks like on an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not like the Sikhote. Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an ordinary chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen iron meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin meteorite? Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Zainwestuj pieniądze w nieruchomości w górach. Sprawdź najnowsze oferty w Zakopanem i okolicach - Kliknij: http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=www.bachledanieruchomosci.plsid=913 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Gary Fujihara AstroDay Institute 105 Puhili Place, Hilo, HI 96720 (808) 640-9161, fuj...@mac.com http://astroday.net __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Best examples I've yet to see. Thanks for the tutorial -- From: Dark Matter freequa...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 1:05 PM To: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi Eric, Here are a few closeup pics of fusion crust on the iron named Bogou: http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2009/august/Accretion_Desk.htm Best, Martin H. On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com wrote: Hi all, With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote Alin meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks like on an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not like the Sikhote. Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an ordinary chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen iron meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin meteorite? Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Thank you ALL! Martin, Tomasz, Michael, List, Fabulous! Exactly what I was looking for... Thank you for sharing! Those are perfect examples of fusion crusted irons, and some of the most beautiful meteorites I've seen. I'm sure everyone agrees, those are gorgeous! It really gives you a good idea of what they look like. It looks completely different than a freshly fallen chondrite. Regards, Eric Tomasz Jakubowski wrote: Hello, also good example of Sikhote : http://picasaweb.google.pl/illaenus/SikhoteAlin230grams# Kind Regards Tomek Jakubowski IMCA #2321 Dnia 17-11-2009 o godz. 18:59 Michael Johnson napisa³(a): Good example of S-A: http://www.flickr.com/photos/30591...@n04/2983976145/sizes/o/ Michael Johnson http://www.rocksfromspace.org - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:34:47 PM (GMT-0500) America/New_York Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Fat, dull, rough, dark-grey to dark-brown. Boguslavka: http://www.fmm.ru/metpictures/bogus.jpg Cabin Creek http://www.austromet.com/Museum_24082005_07.jpg Treysa http://www.gi-po.de/meteorit_treysa_1g.jpg Sikhote-Alin http://www.spacerocksinc.com/Dec1.html and so on. Cheers, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Meteorites USA Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 18:18 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi all, With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote Alin meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks like on an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not like the Sikhote. Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an ordinary chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen iron meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin meteorite? Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Zainwestuj pieni±dze w nieruchomo¶ci w górach. Sprawd¼ najnowsze oferty w Zakopanem i okolicach - Kliknij: http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=www.bachledanieruchomosci.plsid=913 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
yes indeedy -- From: Michael Johnson mich...@rocksfromspace.org Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:59 PM To: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Good example of S-A: http://www.flickr.com/photos/30591...@n04/2983976145/sizes/o/ Michael Johnson http://www.rocksfromspace.org - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:34:47 PM (GMT-0500) America/New_York Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Fat, dull, rough, dark-grey to dark-brown. Boguslavka: http://www.fmm.ru/metpictures/bogus.jpg Cabin Creek http://www.austromet.com/Museum_24082005_07.jpg Treysa http://www.gi-po.de/meteorit_treysa_1g.jpg Sikhote-Alin http://www.spacerocksinc.com/Dec1.html and so on. Cheers, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Meteorites USA Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 18:18 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi all, With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote Alin meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks like on an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not like the Sikhote. Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an ordinary chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen iron meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin meteorite? Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Hey, Here's another Sikhote to compare - http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/2335664239/sizes/l/ Regards, Jason On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Jerry Flaherty g...@comcast.net wrote: yes indeedy -- From: Michael Johnson mich...@rocksfromspace.org Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:59 PM To: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Good example of S-A: http://www.flickr.com/photos/30591...@n04/2983976145/sizes/o/ Michael Johnson http://www.rocksfromspace.org - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:34:47 PM (GMT-0500) America/New_York Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Fat, dull, rough, dark-grey to dark-brown. Boguslavka: http://www.fmm.ru/metpictures/bogus.jpg Cabin Creek http://www.austromet.com/Museum_24082005_07.jpg Treysa http://www.gi-po.de/meteorit_treysa_1g.jpg Sikhote-Alin http://www.spacerocksinc.com/Dec1.html and so on. Cheers, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Meteorites USA Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 18:18 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi all, With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote Alin meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks like on an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not like the Sikhote. Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an ordinary chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen iron meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin meteorite? Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Ooh...very nice detail, Jason! Linton - Original Message - From: Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hey, Here's another Sikhote to compare - http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/2335664239/sizes/l/ Regards, Jason On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Jerry Flaherty g...@comcast.net wrote: yes indeedy -- From: Michael Johnson mich...@rocksfromspace.org Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:59 PM To: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Good example of S-A: http://www.flickr.com/photos/30591...@n04/2983976145/sizes/o/ Michael Johnson http://www.rocksfromspace.org - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:34:47 PM (GMT-0500) America/New_York Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Fat, dull, rough, dark-grey to dark-brown. Boguslavka: http://www.fmm.ru/metpictures/bogus.jpg Cabin Creek http://www.austromet.com/Museum_24082005_07.jpg Treysa http://www.gi-po.de/meteorit_treysa_1g.jpg Sikhote-Alin http://www.spacerocksinc.com/Dec1.html and so on. Cheers, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Meteorites USA Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 18:18 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi all, With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote Alin meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks like on an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not like the Sikhote. Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an ordinary chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen iron meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin meteorite? Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Hello Mike, All, Ground conditions can vary so greatly that I'd have to say that I have no real idea. Given the little research I've put in, I'd say that the ground in the vicinity of the Campo fall might have better drainage, receive less annual rainfall (cumulatively anyways), or simply be less acidic or basic in some way. I do know for certain that the find locale of Nantan is a very wet environment, but I know little about the region in which Campo del Cielo fell. Regarding the irons themselves, I've yet to see an as-found Nantan with less than 2-3 inches of oxide coating it, whereas Campos do vary a bit, but it's usually less than a cm of external oxide. I'll see what I can do about some pics of the main mass. Jason On 12/7/06, Mike Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Jason, Thanks for your thorough and I might say persuasive commentary on fusion crusted irons. I did note one possible discordant data. Campo del Cielo is an approximately 5000 year old fall and Nantan is 500 years old. Is the Nantan region so much worse (wetter?) that no fusion crust can be found? Also, how about the main mass of Taza? Does that have crust? If you want to share more pictures, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Mike Fowler Chicago ebay--starsandrocks Hello All, Might be a little on the tail end of this thread, but I think it still merits posting... Although there may be exceptions where an iron lacks fusion crust do to a late atmospheric breakup or weathering, as might any stony meteorite, they do, in general, possess just such a skin after having fallen to the earth. However, many peoples' opinions of what exactly this crust consists of differs greatly with regard to irons. I've seen many a Canyon Diablo or Campo regarded as possessing fusion crust, when there is truly none of the remaining original surface left, and mm if not cm of material have corroded off of the surface since the fall. That being said, the same argument applies to stony meteorites. Are any Canyon Diablo's truly crusted? I can very safely assume that no, none of them was picked up after the fall and stored away in some humidity controlled pueblo, to be rediscovered some 50,000 years later. In just about every case, they've lost several mm if not a few cm (some large specimens have rusted clear though) off of every surface, so though they could, and should, be deemed complete individuals, they are in no way, shape, or form, crusted. Campo Del Cielo Firstly, what an amazing fall. Large beautiful irons in such an abundance as to flood the market in every sense of the term. That being said, many do have a tendency to rust. And many have corroded to the point of looking like rather abstract iron potatoes or larger lumps, possessing little semblance of their original flight-marked forms, all of these traces having been removed by weathering eons ago. However, on many of the 'new Campos' of several years ago, one can find patches of fusion crust with ripples and flow lines (and even a few impact pits). Could this really be deemed fusion crust? I think so. When cut, many of the irons show a heat rim that clearly display the fact that at least some of them have not lost much, if any of their original surface. These patches are oftentimes small, but we do have one in our collection that we purchased a number of years ago that is a spectacularly oriented specimen which is visually comparable to many Sikhote-Alins, with a full side of blue-black ripples and spatters. The back is glypted, and displays much crust as well. Here's an image of the leading edge of the specimen: http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f306/JUtas/meteorites/P1010040.jpg (It's concave - hence the lack of flowlines and rippled appearance.) And the trailing edge with it's fusion crusted glypts: http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f306/JUtas/meteorites/P1010043.jpg For another example of this, I believe Matteo could provide us with a picture or two of one of his newer Campos...he posted some a while back, and they showed a very fresh-looking iron. Onto Morasko... Well, firstly, who ever said that it fell ~5,000 years ago? Firstly, I can quote Buchwald as saying in his catalogue of iron meteorites, that Fusion crusts may be detected in numerous places. The assumption that it is a glacially transported meteorite is also completely false, seeing as there are craters nearby in which specimens have actually been found that have been dated to roughly the same age as the fall itself. For photos, I'd simply go to Marcin, as he's already put some up for the more suspicious parties. It's fusion crust in those pics, you can be sure. I've seen another ~70kg individual recently myself, and am certain that it has large areas of crust. Regarding Sikhote Alin, one must tread carefully. Many individuals being found today are cleaned using ball bearings (tumbling), which, although they give the
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Martin, You're right about that of course. No need to beat the dealer drum. I was thinking more about the 1000's of small Sikhote's that were sold on ebay. Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 08:56:19 +0100 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Only one of them, they aren't relatives. And honestly - if you bother, when you get a pallasite, which costed before 10-15$/g at 300$/kg; a CO3 fall, which costed before 50-150$/g at 2.5$/g; a MES; which was unavailable before at 5$/g; a cumulate Euc, where you paid 25$/g at 1.5$/g; irons, which costed 2-5$/g at 250$/kg, another PAL, which was available only every 10 years in minute amounts, at 300$/kg; a low tkw-fall, good for 25$/g at 1.5$/g; the most beautiful iron, which was priced at 5-9$/g at 300$/kg; good ol classic stones with names, all good for 2-4$/g at 0.4-0.6$/g; lunaites, where people paid 3500-5500/g before at 200-700$/g; a Mars, which is paid today with 500$/g at 100-150$/g; OCs with all find data cheaper than unclassified NWAs... ...stones and irons, where you earned good money in reselling them, if you bother there, whether you paid 10 bucks to much for shipment, then I guess, you missed the right field of collecting and you'd rather should collect beer bottle labels, but not meteorites. Or you'd rather should not buy meteorites, but to try to hunt them. You'll be astonished, how extreme expensive it will be, to find such amounts, like the Russians did, call us, when you've found your first 10 lunaites :-), I'll pay you 10$ excess for shipping them in small polished slices at 200$/g to me. Chirp, Martin Now at the Hamburg show. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Bill Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. Dezember 2006 08:19 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Didn't those heroes charge a pretty steep shipping charge for even the smallest particle? I suppose the smart buyer bought according to the combined offer but what about the hundreds maybe thousands of uninitiated buyers that paid the charge for a few grams. I'll pass on the medal ceremony. Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 11:01:24 +0100 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi John, no, I'd doubt that. At those prices having paid during the last 5 years, any additional work on the smaller Sikhote-Alins had to be avoided, else it would be economically nonsensical. I think to hunt them, to carry them down from the mountains, to derust them, to transport them to Western-Europe and USA, but then getting out not more than 150$/kg even for the nicest individuals on ebay, (additional paypal-fees, ebay provision, currency exchange losses) as it was the case until 1 year ago, simply wouldn't justfy to burn each piece blue or to use expensive gun oils. And if I look back - most Russian suppliers always sold extremely cleaned Sikhotes, brushed, tmbled, etched and grinded down until the iron was a shiny silver. I never liked that style, but I observed, as Sikhote-Alin was always the first choice of non-meteoriticistical buyers, that they got higher prices than nicer, not so radically cleaned Sikhotes, because the laymen thought, that it would be a spot of bother, if there would be dark spots or even spots of rust left. I remember, that I had always to place an extra order, to get some not so down-cleaned, where beside some rust, here and there some blue, or some remainders of crust could be found, simply because most suppliers had only silverware. Now, where Sikhote stongly is raising again in price, it might be a temptation to refurbish some of them, but unfortunately the strewnfield is exhausted and almost only shrapnels are still found. Thus a toast from the collectors for our Russian heroes, who supplied and are supplying the market with the nicest and most interesting meteorites, always bringing the price down to a small fraction of that, what it cost before - which never should be a cause for a collector, to disesteem those locales! The older will remember, when Sikhote cost 5$-9$/g, a Kainsaz 50$ and how many of us would be horny for Brahin, never complaining about its stability, if it would be so difficult available as 10, 15 years ago, when it cost as much as an Imilac, a Fukang, and sometimes even as Finmarken. Buckleboo! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von JKGwilliam Gesendet: Dienstag, 5. Dezember 2006 05:19 An: Mike Bandli; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Does
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Hello All, Might be a little on the tail end of this thread, but I think it still merits posting... Although there may be exceptions where an iron lacks fusion crust do to a late atmospheric breakup or weathering, as might any stony meteorite, they do, in general, possess just such a skin after having fallen to the earth. However, many peoples' opinions of what exactly this crust consists of differs greatly with regard to irons. I've seen many a Canyon Diablo or Campo regarded as possessing fusion crust, when there is truly none of the remaining original surface left, and mm if not cm of material have corroded off of the surface since the fall. That being said, the same argument applies to stony meteorites. Are any Canyon Diablo's truly crusted? I can very safely assume that no, none of them was picked up after the fall and stored away in some humidity controlled pueblo, to be rediscovered some 50,000 years later. In just about every case, they've lost several mm if not a few cm (some large specimens have rusted clear though) off of every surface, so though they could, and should, be deemed complete individuals, they are in no way, shape, or form, crusted. Campo Del Cielo Firstly, what an amazing fall. Large beautiful irons in such an abundance as to flood the market in every sense of the term. That being said, many do have a tendency to rust. And many have corroded to the point of looking like rather abstract iron potatoes or larger lumps, possessing little semblance of their original flight-marked forms, all of these traces having been removed by weathering eons ago. However, on many of the 'new Campos' of several years ago, one can find patches of fusion crust with ripples and flow lines (and even a few impact pits). Could this really be deemed fusion crust? I think so. When cut, many of the irons show a heat rim that clearly display the fact that at least some of them have not lost much, if any of their original surface. These patches are oftentimes small, but we do have one in our collection that we purchased a number of years ago that is a spectacularly oriented specimen which is visually comparable to many Sikhote-Alins, with a full side of blue-black ripples and spatters. The back is glypted, and displays much crust as well. Here's an image of the leading edge of the specimen: http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f306/JUtas/meteorites/P1010040.jpg (It's concave - hence the lack of flowlines and rippled appearance.) And the trailing edge with it's fusion crusted glypts: http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f306/JUtas/meteorites/P1010043.jpg For another example of this, I believe Matteo could provide us with a picture or two of one of his newer Campos...he posted some a while back, and they showed a very fresh-looking iron. Onto Morasko... Well, firstly, who ever said that it fell ~5,000 years ago? Firstly, I can quote Buchwald as saying in his catalogue of iron meteorites, that Fusion crusts may be detected in numerous places. The assumption that it is a glacially transported meteorite is also completely false, seeing as there are craters nearby in which specimens have actually been found that have been dated to roughly the same age as the fall itself. For photos, I'd simply go to Marcin, as he's already put some up for the more suspicious parties. It's fusion crust in those pics, you can be sure. I've seen another ~70kg individual recently myself, and am certain that it has large areas of crust. Regarding Sikhote Alin, one must tread carefully. Many individuals being found today are cleaned using ball bearings (tumbling), which, although they give the irons a pretty shine, removes much of the fusion crust. In fact, if your Sikhote's have a shiny, rather than matte look to them, they may still have some crust, but you've lost at least the majority of its thickness. Here are a few pics to show the basic differences between the two. Tumbled, with assiciated sheen: http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f306/JUtas/meteorites/DSCN1077.jpg Cleaned using some other method: http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f306/JUtas/meteorites/DSCN1091.jpg There's a clear difference between the two; on one, the flowlines have nearly disappeared altogether whereas the other even possesses some of its original compression waves formed by varying degrees of heat and compression on the leading edge of the iron. Is this fusion crust? Well, it's melted and was at some point flowing. It may not be the topmost layer of crust, but it's certainly fusion crust, of that there can be no doubt. In general...old falls like Odessa, CD, and Nantan will, I can promise you, never show any trace of crust ever (well, oxide, but that's another issue). As for others such as Henbury or Campo Del Cielowell, I've seen some nice Campo's and some really nicely oriented Henburys Sikhote's are, of course, fusion crusted, at least if they're individuals and aren't too weathered. And if they're not individuals, hell,
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Martin, PS: I do collect beer labels. I have a very nice collection of prototypes from advertising agency art departments. I need a Meteorite Beer label though. Bill, Now at the Humbug Show. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 08:56:19 +0100 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Only one of them, they aren't relatives. And honestly - if you bother, when you get a pallasite, which costed before 10-15$/g at 300$/kg; a CO3 fall, which costed before 50-150$/g at 2.5$/g; a MES; which was unavailable before at 5$/g; a cumulate Euc, where you paid 25$/g at 1.5$/g; irons, which costed 2-5$/g at 250$/kg, another PAL, which was available only every 10 years in minute amounts, at 300$/kg; a low tkw-fall, good for 25$/g at 1.5$/g; the most beautiful iron, which was priced at 5-9$/g at 300$/kg; good ol classic stones with names, all good for 2-4$/g at 0.4-0.6$/g; lunaites, where people paid 3500-5500/g before at 200-700$/g; a Mars, which is paid today with 500$/g at 100-150$/g; OCs with all find data cheaper than unclassified NWAs... ...stones and irons, where you earned good money in reselling them, if you bother there, whether you paid 10 bucks to much for shipment, then I guess, you missed the right field of collecting and you'd rather should collect beer bottle labels, but not meteorites. Or you'd rather should not buy meteorites, but to try to hunt them. You'll be astonished, how extreme expensive it will be, to find such amounts, like the Russians did, call us, when you've found your first 10 lunaites :-), I'll pay you 10$ excess for shipping them in small polished slices at 200$/g to me. Chirp, Martin Now at the Hamburg show. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Bill Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. Dezember 2006 08:19 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Didn't those heroes charge a pretty steep shipping charge for even the smallest particle? I suppose the smart buyer bought according to the combined offer but what about the hundreds maybe thousands of uninitiated buyers that paid the charge for a few grams. I'll pass on the medal ceremony. Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 11:01:24 +0100 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi John, no, I'd doubt that. At those prices having paid during the last 5 years, any additional work on the smaller Sikhote-Alins had to be avoided, else it would be economically nonsensical. I think to hunt them, to carry them down from the mountains, to derust them, to transport them to Western-Europe and USA, but then getting out not more than 150$/kg even for the nicest individuals on ebay, (additional paypal-fees, ebay provision, currency exchange losses) as it was the case until 1 year ago, simply wouldn't justfy to burn each piece blue or to use expensive gun oils. And if I look back - most Russian suppliers always sold extremely cleaned Sikhotes, brushed, tmbled, etched and grinded down until the iron was a shiny silver. I never liked that style, but I observed, as Sikhote-Alin was always the first choice of non-meteoriticistical buyers, that they got higher prices than nicer, not so radically cleaned Sikhotes, because the laymen thought, that it would be a spot of bother, if there would be dark spots or even spots of rust left. I remember, that I had always to place an extra order, to get some not so down-cleaned, where beside some rust, here and there some blue, or some remainders of crust could be found, simply because most suppliers had only silverware. Now, where Sikhote stongly is raising again in price, it might be a temptation to refurbish some of them, but unfortunately the strewnfield is exhausted and almost only shrapnels are still found. Thus a toast from the collectors for our Russian heroes, who supplied and are supplying the market with the nicest and most interesting meteorites, always bringing the price down to a small fraction of that, what it cost before - which never should be a cause for a collector, to disesteem those locales! The older will remember, when Sikhote cost 5$-9$/g, a Kainsaz 50$ and how many of us would be horny for Brahin, never complaining about its stability, if it would be so difficult available as 10, 15 years ago, when it cost as much as an Imilac, a Fukang, and sometimes even as Finmarken. Buckleboo! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von JKGwilliam Gesendet: Dienstag, 5. Dezember 2006 05:19 An: Mike Bandli; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
John Said: Does anyone besides me believe that many of the Sikhote-Alin irons have been doctored to look better than they really are? No, really, do ya think?? :) (just in case it comes a major revelation - how long in the ground do you think the original crust/oxide survives on an Iron? A few tens of years! These xxx hundred year old Irons (like Campo etc) that are dug out of the ground with brown rusty goo dripping off them, don't mysteriously just get a quick wipe with a cloth and end up jet black you know!) 'Doctoring' is a relative term, I'd call it 'preparation', personally I don't have a problem with an Iron 'ending up' with a black coating, hell it's a lot better than a wire brushed shiny polished chunk, and at least the black oxide coating protects the piece to a large extent! Best, Mark -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JKGwilliam Sent: 05 December 2006 04:19 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mike Bandli; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Does anyone besides me believe that many of the Sikhote-Alin irons have been doctored to look better than they really are? Over the past several years I've heard several stories (rumors) that a lot of creative work has been used to make some of the SAs look as good as they do. One of the stories actually involved the application of liquid gun blueing. I've seen pictures of some of these beautiful specimens right out of the ground and they are pretty rusty. Best, John At 04:03 PM 12/4/2006, Gary K. Foote wrote: Beautiful sikhote. I love the blue sheen most of them have. Gary http://www.meteorite-dealres.com On 4 Dec 2006 at 14:54, Mike Bandli wrote: Crust on irons...most definitely! This Sikhote has THICK crust in some of the regmaglypts. Thick enough that you can chip it off. It's like Blued Gun Metal. http://www.astro-artifacts.com/Astroartifacts/Collection/SIKHOTE-296,14g .jpg Kind regards, Mike Bandli __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Hi John, no, I'd doubt that. At those prices having paid during the last 5 years, any additional work on the smaller Sikhote-Alins had to be avoided, else it would be economically nonsensical. I think to hunt them, to carry them down from the mountains, to derust them, to transport them to Western-Europe and USA, but then getting out not more than 150$/kg even for the nicest individuals on ebay, (additional paypal-fees, ebay provision, currency exchange losses) as it was the case until 1 year ago, simply wouldn't justfy to burn each piece blue or to use expensive gun oils. And if I look back - most Russian suppliers always sold extremely cleaned Sikhotes, brushed, tmbled, etched and grinded down until the iron was a shiny silver. I never liked that style, but I observed, as Sikhote-Alin was always the first choice of non-meteoriticistical buyers, that they got higher prices than nicer, not so radically cleaned Sikhotes, because the laymen thought, that it would be a spot of bother, if there would be dark spots or even spots of rust left. I remember, that I had always to place an extra order, to get some not so down-cleaned, where beside some rust, here and there some blue, or some remainders of crust could be found, simply because most suppliers had only silverware. Now, where Sikhote stongly is raising again in price, it might be a temptation to refurbish some of them, but unfortunately the strewnfield is exhausted and almost only shrapnels are still found. Thus a toast from the collectors for our Russian heroes, who supplied and are supplying the market with the nicest and most interesting meteorites, always bringing the price down to a small fraction of that, what it cost before - which never should be a cause for a collector, to disesteem those locales! The older will remember, when Sikhote cost 5$-9$/g, a Kainsaz 50$ and how many of us would be horny for Brahin, never complaining about its stability, if it would be so difficult available as 10, 15 years ago, when it cost as much as an Imilac, a Fukang, and sometimes even as Finmarken. Buckleboo! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von JKGwilliam Gesendet: Dienstag, 5. Dezember 2006 05:19 An: Mike Bandli; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Does anyone besides me believe that many of the Sikhote-Alin irons have been doctored to look better than they really are? Over the past several years I've heard several stories (rumors) that a lot of creative work has been used to make some of the SAs look as good as they do. One of the stories actually involved the application of liquid gun blueing. I've seen pictures of some of these beautiful specimens right out of the ground and they are pretty rusty. Best, John __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
I'll bet the owner is happy with it. I am VERY envious. Gary On 5 Dec 2006 at 0:44, Martin Altmann wrote: It's sold, but the owner is happy with it. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Gary K. Foote [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Dienstag, 5. Dezember 2006 00:37 An: Martin Altmann; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons I WANT it! Gary the Drooler On 5 Dec 2006 at 0:06, Martin Altmann wrote: Crusty the Clown crows: www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/BoguslavkaCrust1.jpg http://www.spacerocksinc.com/Dec1.html Buckleboo! __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
John asked Does anyone besides me believe that many of the Sikhote-Alin irons have been doctored to look better than they really are? Yes, I would say most experienced collectors understand they have been doctored. Also, it appears to me the doctoring about five years ago, when Sikhotes were still $3-4 a gram, was much better then the doctoring I have seen the last three years. The newer prepared pieces will often start having their crust chip off before you bright them home. I've seen pictures of some of these beautiful specimens right out of the ground and they are pretty rusty. A piece of iron left on the ground in region that commonly snows becomes covered in rust within a few years. Sikhote-Alin fell over 50 years. Collectors should not let this frustrate them. Just think, how many irons do you have in your collection. Now how many of them are falls? It took 50 years before Sikhote's started appearing on the market in mass, and from what I have seen, the days of mass Sikhote's are pretty much over. Russia has really cracked down on the export of meteorites. We are lucky to have had the chance to pick up a pieces at prices they have been available I like the button shaped ones... http://www.meteoritearticles.com/colsikhoteheats1.html Clear Skies, Mark Bostick www.meteoritearticles.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
And if I look back - most Russian suppliers always sold extremely cleaned Sikhotes, brushed, tmbled, etched and grinded down until the iron was a shiny silver. I never liked that style, but I observed, as Sikhote-Alin was always the first choice of non-meteoriticistical buyers, that they got higher prices than nicer, not so radically cleaned Sikhotes, because the laymen thought, that it would be a spot of bother, if there would be dark spots or even spots of rust left. I have bought a lot of sikhote-alin shrapnel over the last couple years. My main supplier had shrapnel that ran the gamut from silver through dirty brown to black. I asked for an explanation of what the difference was in the preparation they did with the items. All of them were tumbled, the dirty brown were tumbled the least mostly to get the dirt and other crud off them. If tumbled for a longer period the brown wears away to a black under coating and tumbled even longer the black wears away to a silver color. The only other thing he does to them is soak them in mineral oil. I doubt that the cost of shrapnel justifies more. If it works for shrapnel maybe it works for individuals just as well without the need for fancy coloring schemes. -- Eric Olson 7682 Firethorn Dr Fayetteville, NC 28311 http://www.star-bits.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
And if I look back - most Russian suppliers always sold extremely cleaned Sikhotes, brushed, tmbled, etched and grinded down until the iron was a shiny silver. I never liked that style, but I observed, as Sikhote-Alin was always the first choice of non-meteoriticistical buyers, that they got higher prices than nicer, not so radically cleaned Sikhotes, because the laymen thought, that it would be a spot of bother, if there would be dark spots or even spots of rust left. I have bought a lot of sikhote-alin shrapnel over the last couple years. My main supplier had shrapnel that ran the gamut from silver through dirty brown to black. I asked for an explanation of what the difference was in the preparation they did with the items. All of them were tumbled, the dirty brown were tumbled the least mostly to get the dirt and other crud off them. If tumbled for a longer period the brown wears away to a black under coating and tumbled even longer the black wears away to a silver color. The only other thing he does to them is soak them in mineral oil. I doubt that the cost of shrapnel justifies more. If it works for shrapnel maybe it works for individuals just as well without the need for fancy coloring schemes. -- Eric Olson 7682 Firethorn Dr Fayetteville, NC 28311 http://www.star-bits.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Didn't those heroes charge a pretty steep shipping charge for even the smallest particle? I suppose the smart buyer bought according to the combined offer but what about the hundreds maybe thousands of uninitiated buyers that paid the charge for a few grams. I'll pass on the medal ceremony. Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 11:01:24 +0100 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi John, no, I'd doubt that. At those prices having paid during the last 5 years, any additional work on the smaller Sikhote-Alins had to be avoided, else it would be economically nonsensical. I think to hunt them, to carry them down from the mountains, to derust them, to transport them to Western-Europe and USA, but then getting out not more than 150$/kg even for the nicest individuals on ebay, (additional paypal-fees, ebay provision, currency exchange losses) as it was the case until 1 year ago, simply wouldn't justfy to burn each piece blue or to use expensive gun oils. And if I look back - most Russian suppliers always sold extremely cleaned Sikhotes, brushed, tmbled, etched and grinded down until the iron was a shiny silver. I never liked that style, but I observed, as Sikhote-Alin was always the first choice of non-meteoriticistical buyers, that they got higher prices than nicer, not so radically cleaned Sikhotes, because the laymen thought, that it would be a spot of bother, if there would be dark spots or even spots of rust left. I remember, that I had always to place an extra order, to get some not so down-cleaned, where beside some rust, here and there some blue, or some remainders of crust could be found, simply because most suppliers had only silverware. Now, where Sikhote stongly is raising again in price, it might be a temptation to refurbish some of them, but unfortunately the strewnfield is exhausted and almost only shrapnels are still found. Thus a toast from the collectors for our Russian heroes, who supplied and are supplying the market with the nicest and most interesting meteorites, always bringing the price down to a small fraction of that, what it cost before - which never should be a cause for a collector, to disesteem those locales! The older will remember, when Sikhote cost 5$-9$/g, a Kainsaz 50$ and how many of us would be horny for Brahin, never complaining about its stability, if it would be so difficult available as 10, 15 years ago, when it cost as much as an Imilac, a Fukang, and sometimes even as Finmarken. Buckleboo! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von JKGwilliam Gesendet: Dienstag, 5. Dezember 2006 05:19 An: Mike Bandli; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Does anyone besides me believe that many of the Sikhote-Alin irons have been doctored to look better than they really are? Over the past several years I've heard several stories (rumors) that a lot of creative work has been used to make some of the SAs look as good as they do. One of the stories actually involved the application of liquid gun blueing. I've seen pictures of some of these beautiful specimens right out of the ground and they are pretty rusty. Best, John __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Only one of them, they aren't relatives. And honestly - if you bother, when you get a pallasite, which costed before 10-15$/g at 300$/kg; a CO3 fall, which costed before 50-150$/g at 2.5$/g; a MES; which was unavailable before at 5$/g; a cumulate Euc, where you paid 25$/g at 1.5$/g; irons, which costed 2-5$/g at 250$/kg, another PAL, which was available only every 10 years in minute amounts, at 300$/kg; a low tkw-fall, good for 25$/g at 1.5$/g; the most beautiful iron, which was priced at 5-9$/g at 300$/kg; good ol classic stones with names, all good for 2-4$/g at 0.4-0.6$/g; lunaites, where people paid 3500-5500/g before at 200-700$/g; a Mars, which is paid today with 500$/g at 100-150$/g; OCs with all find data cheaper than unclassified NWAs... ...stones and irons, where you earned good money in reselling them, if you bother there, whether you paid 10 bucks to much for shipment, then I guess, you missed the right field of collecting and you'd rather should collect beer bottle labels, but not meteorites. Or you'd rather should not buy meteorites, but to try to hunt them. You'll be astonished, how extreme expensive it will be, to find such amounts, like the Russians did, call us, when you've found your first 10 lunaites :-), I'll pay you 10$ excess for shipping them in small polished slices at 200$/g to me. Chirp, Martin Now at the Hamburg show. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Bill Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. Dezember 2006 08:19 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Didn't those heroes charge a pretty steep shipping charge for even the smallest particle? I suppose the smart buyer bought according to the combined offer but what about the hundreds maybe thousands of uninitiated buyers that paid the charge for a few grams. I'll pass on the medal ceremony. Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 11:01:24 +0100 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi John, no, I'd doubt that. At those prices having paid during the last 5 years, any additional work on the smaller Sikhote-Alins had to be avoided, else it would be economically nonsensical. I think to hunt them, to carry them down from the mountains, to derust them, to transport them to Western-Europe and USA, but then getting out not more than 150$/kg even for the nicest individuals on ebay, (additional paypal-fees, ebay provision, currency exchange losses) as it was the case until 1 year ago, simply wouldn't justfy to burn each piece blue or to use expensive gun oils. And if I look back - most Russian suppliers always sold extremely cleaned Sikhotes, brushed, tmbled, etched and grinded down until the iron was a shiny silver. I never liked that style, but I observed, as Sikhote-Alin was always the first choice of non-meteoriticistical buyers, that they got higher prices than nicer, not so radically cleaned Sikhotes, because the laymen thought, that it would be a spot of bother, if there would be dark spots or even spots of rust left. I remember, that I had always to place an extra order, to get some not so down-cleaned, where beside some rust, here and there some blue, or some remainders of crust could be found, simply because most suppliers had only silverware. Now, where Sikhote stongly is raising again in price, it might be a temptation to refurbish some of them, but unfortunately the strewnfield is exhausted and almost only shrapnels are still found. Thus a toast from the collectors for our Russian heroes, who supplied and are supplying the market with the nicest and most interesting meteorites, always bringing the price down to a small fraction of that, what it cost before - which never should be a cause for a collector, to disesteem those locales! The older will remember, when Sikhote cost 5$-9$/g, a Kainsaz 50$ and how many of us would be horny for Brahin, never complaining about its stability, if it would be so difficult available as 10, 15 years ago, when it cost as much as an Imilac, a Fukang, and sometimes even as Finmarken. Buckleboo! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von JKGwilliam Gesendet: Dienstag, 5. Dezember 2006 05:19 An: Mike Bandli; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Does anyone besides me believe that many of the Sikhote-Alin irons have been doctored to look better than they really are? Over the past several years I've heard several stories (rumors) that a lot of creative work has been used to make some of the SAs look as good as they do. One of the stories actually involved the application of liquid gun blueing. I've seen pictures of some of these beautiful specimens right out
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Hi Gary, Fusion crust can be in the eyes of the beholder, so the difficulty with this question is we are making a one-size fits all definition. For the irons, you could get a vey thin local destruction of any crystalline patterns or figures (no longer etch), some chemical change from 'burning' up including colors. In the case of stones, it is a different and typically a glazed-silicate ceramic crust forms. It can get a rainbowish tint from burnishing, though it usually looks somewhat bluish. It's so thin that it quickly is lost to other mineralization in the oxidizing humid environment that is earth's. So there is a difference. But loosely thay can all be attributed to 'fusion' though in the case of iron it has a different characteristic. In either case, when the fusion crust is black, this is generally caused by oxidized iron during the entry, not terrestrialization. That is a main difference between what we see on many older irons in dry and stable environments. So, yes, irons can have a fusion crust, it is just not predominantly a ceramic kiln glaze best seen from some achondrites, which is the classic... Best wishes, Doug - Original Message - From: Gary K. Foote [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 1:26 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi All, Recently I have read a few posts to this list that definitively claim that irons do not form a fusion crust. Yet, in Norton's Rocks From Space, [pg 167 in my softbound edition] it clearly states the following; Iron meteorites have the thinnest crust of all, usually only a small fraction of a millimeter thick. A fresh crust is blue-black to black and looks like freshly welded steel. This crust is fragile and easily destroyed if the meteorite weathers for even a short time. So, which is true? Crust or no crust for irons? Gary Foote http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Thanks for clearing that up Doug. I've always felt a bit dumb talking about fusion crust and irons. Gary On 4 Dec 2006 at 13:59, MexicoDoug wrote: Hi Gary, Fusion crust can be in the eyes of the beholder, so the difficulty with this question is we are making a one-size fits all definition. For the irons, you could get a vey thin local destruction of any crystalline patterns or figures (no longer etch), some chemical change from 'burning' up including colors. In the case of stones, it is a different and typically a glazed-silicate ceramic crust forms. It can get a rainbowish tint from burnishing, though it usually looks somewhat bluish. It's so thin that it quickly is lost to other mineralization in the oxidizing humid environment that is earth's. So there is a difference. But loosely thay can all be attributed to 'fusion' though in the case of iron it has a different characteristic. In either case, when the fusion crust is black, this is generally caused by oxidized iron during the entry, not terrestrialization. That is a main difference between what we see on many older irons in dry and stable environments. So, yes, irons can have a fusion crust, it is just not predominantly a ceramic kiln glaze best seen from some achondrites, which is the classic... Best wishes, Doug - Original Message - From: Gary K. Foote [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 1:26 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi All, Recently I have read a few posts to this list that definitively claim that irons do not form a fusion crust. Yet, in Norton's Rocks From Space, [pg 167 in my softbound edition] it clearly states the following; Iron meteorites have the thinnest crust of all, usually only a small fraction of a millimeter thick. A fresh crust is blue-black to black and looks like freshly welded steel. This crust is fragile and easily destroyed if the meteorite weathers for even a short time. So, which is true? Crust or no crust for irons? Gary Foote http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Hey Gary. No problem, that's my best answer but I'm sure others with other points of view could add a lot of complementary information. I should have mentioned, too, that the nice black magnetite that developes on the surfaces of irons in meteorite-friendly desert environments is often called 'fusion crust'. That is not exactly the same as the fresh stuff - that is more like the desert varnish for an iron loosely said. The good thing about it is that it serves to seal naturally in the rest of the meteorite by forming an alread oxidized and thus inert protective skin. That's great to have anyway and whether someone is over zealous to call it fusion crust or not. Too bad it has to be cut to appreciate on small pieces. In Marcin's case, though, he argues that you can see flow lines. This is where it gets semantic. I'd just agree with him since he's absolutely right that they were caused in the fusion even. But, I would temper (!) that with the knowledge that they may be mineralized and compositionally just a reminder of what they once were. Still, sounds superbe to have that on a 5000 year old iron meteorite, by any name! Martin at Chladni Hairs have a beautiful Boguslavka Iron (a witnessed fall) which has a thick melted skin, so it would be nice to hear from them about how that fits into my limited try at this (maybe it was exposed to something hot in space, ie got close to the Sun, and as Larry Lebovsky will be quick to point out, radiative heating can be brutal and cause asteroid skins. I just don't know how that could survive in tact throughout entry... Best wishes, Doug - Original Message - From: Gary K. Foote [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MexicoDoug [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 2:03 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Thanks for clearing that up Doug. I've always felt a bit dumb talking about fusion crust and irons. Gary On 4 Dec 2006 at 13:59, MexicoDoug wrote: Hi Gary, Fusion crust can be in the eyes of the beholder, so the difficulty with this question is we are making a one-size fits all definition. For the irons, you could get a vey thin local destruction of any crystalline patterns or figures (no longer etch), some chemical change from 'burning' up including colors. In the case of stones, it is a different and typically a glazed-silicate ceramic crust forms. It can get a rainbowish tint from burnishing, though it usually looks somewhat bluish. It's so thin that it quickly is lost to other mineralization in the oxidizing humid environment that is earth's. So there is a difference. But loosely thay can all be attributed to 'fusion' though in the case of iron it has a different characteristic. In either case, when the fusion crust is black, this is generally caused by oxidized iron during the entry, not terrestrialization. That is a main difference between what we see on many older irons in dry and stable environments. So, yes, irons can have a fusion crust, it is just not predominantly a ceramic kiln glaze best seen from some achondrites, which is the classic... Best wishes, Doug - Original Message - From: Gary K. Foote [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 1:26 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi All, Recently I have read a few posts to this list that definitively claim that irons do not form a fusion crust. Yet, in Norton's Rocks From Space, [pg 167 in my softbound edition] it clearly states the following; Iron meteorites have the thinnest crust of all, usually only a small fraction of a millimeter thick. A fresh crust is blue-black to black and looks like freshly welded steel. This crust is fragile and easily destroyed if the meteorite weathers for even a short time. So, which is true? Crust or no crust for irons? Gary Foote http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
I have a number of sikhotes that have that nice blue sheen. Beautiful for sure. Gary On 4 Dec 2006 at 12:10, Dave Freeman mjwy wrote: Get a fresh looking blue tinted shikote alin, now that is a fushion crust, about .0008 thick but still a fine crust of blue steel. Dave F Gary K. Foote wrote: Thanks for clearing that up Doug. I've always felt a bit dumb talking about fusion crust and irons. Gary On 4 Dec 2006 at 13:59, MexicoDoug wrote: Hi Gary, Fusion crust can be in the eyes of the beholder, so the difficulty with this question is we are making a one-size fits all definition. For the irons, you could get a vey thin local destruction of any crystalline patterns or figures (no longer etch), some chemical change from 'burning' up including colors. In the case of stones, it is a different and typically a glazed-silicate ceramic crust forms. It can get a rainbowish tint from burnishing, though it usually looks somewhat bluish. It's so thin that it quickly is lost to other mineralization in the oxidizing humid environment that is earth's. So there is a difference. But loosely thay can all be attributed to 'fusion' though in the case of iron it has a different characteristic. In either case, when the fusion crust is black, this is generally caused by oxidized iron during the entry, not terrestrialization. That is a main difference between what we see on many older irons in dry and stable environments. So, yes, irons can have a fusion crust, it is just not predominantly a ceramic kiln glaze best seen from some achondrites, which is the classic... Best wishes, Doug - Original Message - From: Gary K. Foote [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 1:26 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi All, Recently I have read a few posts to this list that definitively claim that irons do not form a fusion crust. Yet, in Norton's Rocks From Space, [pg 167 in my softbound edition] it clearly states the following; Iron meteorites have the thinnest crust of all, usually only a small fraction of a millimeter thick. A fresh crust is blue-black to black and looks like freshly welded steel. This crust is fragile and easily destroyed if the meteorite weathers for even a short time. So, which is true? Crust or no crust for irons? Gary Foote http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Crust on irons...most definitely! This Sikhote has THICK crust in some of the regmaglypts. Thick enough that you can chip it off. It's like Blued Gun Metal. http://www.astro-artifacts.com/Astroartifacts/Collection/SIKHOTE-296,14g.jpg Kind regards, Mike Bandli __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Beautiful sikhote. I love the blue sheen most of them have. Gary http://www.meteorite-dealres.com On 4 Dec 2006 at 14:54, Mike Bandli wrote: Crust on irons...most definitely! This Sikhote has THICK crust in some of the regmaglypts. Thick enough that you can chip it off. It's like Blued Gun Metal. http://www.astro-artifacts.com/Astroartifacts/Collection/SIKHOTE-296,14g.jpg Kind regards, Mike Bandli __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Crusty the Clown crows: www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/BoguslavkaCrust1.jpg http://www.spacerocksinc.com/Dec1.html Buckleboo! __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Crusty the Clown crows: www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/BoguslavkaCrust1.jpg Boguslavka!!! Great iron, great Neumann lines (IIAB Hex)! Hey, I´m most critical regarding irons potentially rusting. But this has been a very stable one ever since it resides in my collection. In case Chladni´s heirs have more of this for sale, I recommend -- go get it! I have a Hoba slice in my collection, no, not the usual shale stuff, but a solid genuine slice - with a very good handover history from at least two of its (well-known) pre-owners. This one shows what one would superficially call a good crust, and when I bought it many many many years ago as a newbie from a well-known collector, I admit I still had to do a little research on it afterwards for myself why it looks how it looks. Crust on irons, but not only there, may be quite a tricky thing to have it interpreted correctly. (No, the Hoba is not for sale). Alex Berlin/Germany __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
I WANT it! Gary the Drooler On 5 Dec 2006 at 0:06, Martin Altmann wrote: Crusty the Clown crows: www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/BoguslavkaCrust1.jpg http://www.spacerocksinc.com/Dec1.html Buckleboo! __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Hi Mike, Interesting you should say that. I remember a discussion on the list a few years ago as to whether or not some Sikhote-Alins had been blued to improve their appearance. -Walter Branch - Original Message - From: Mike Bandli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Meteorite Mailing List' meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 5:54 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Crust on irons...most definitely! This Sikhote has THICK crust in some of the regmaglypts. Thick enough that you can chip it off. It's like Blued Gun Metal. http://www.astro-artifacts.com/Astroartifacts/Collection/SIKHOTE-296,14g.jpg Kind regards, Mike Bandli __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
WOW Martin, somehow I missed Dec 1. What a beauty! Jerry Flaherty - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'MexicoDoug' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Crusty the Clown crows: www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/BoguslavkaCrust1.jpg http://www.spacerocksinc.com/Dec1.html Buckleboo! __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons was AD- Coins etc.
I am in agreement with Martin. This is a myth that we shouldn't allow to perpetuate on the list. An Iron/siderite my have an original ablation surface, as well as flow characteristics but won't have a fusion crust. There are many reasons I won't go into about why iron doesn't have the composition to glass up. It can and does develop a film of carbon and magnetite owing to combination with atmospheric oxygen. I think the phrase fusion crust has been repeated so often people have no idea what it really is. A freshly fallen iron may have a film or veneer that you can wipe off--but not a crust! So on this Norton and I disagree on semantics. As a side to all the claims of fusion crust on these sand blasted NWA's on Ebay --t'ain't so neither. The glass froth we know as fusion crust is gone. Fusion crust is easily worn away on exposed surfaces and easily etched when in contact with the soil. What remains is unmelted scorched matrix devoid of fusion crust. In the midst of this writing I see there is a healthy debate raging on the list. I'll post now and read later. Elton __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons / Blued metal
I suppose it would be possible to artificially blue an iron meteorite. Being a gun collector, I do know a bit about it. This Sikhote is definitely not artificially blued. The black oxide that blues metal is only ~2.5 micrometres thick. This crust is MUCH thicker and only resides in the regmaglypts where less wear would naturally occur. I believe an artificial blue would be easy to recognize for some people, but you never know! As people say, buy from reputable dealers! Now I'm curious what an artificially blued Sikhote looks like. It is a wonderful preservation technique for gun barrels, but if misrepresented on a meteorite, could be a bad deal! Anyone have an artificially blued meteorite to post? Cheers, Mike -Original Message- From: Walter Branch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 3:38 PM To: Mike Bandli; 'Meteorite Mailing List' Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi Mike, Interesting you should say that. I remember a discussion on the list a few years ago as to whether or not some Sikhote-Alins had been blued to improve their appearance. -Walter Branch - Original Message - From: Mike Bandli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Meteorite Mailing List' meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 5:54 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Crust on irons...most definitely! This Sikhote has THICK crust in some of the regmaglypts. Thick enough that you can chip it off. It's like Blued Gun Metal. http://www.astro-artifacts.com/Astroartifacts/Collection/SIKHOTE-296,14g.jpg Kind regards, Mike Bandli __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Yeah, Alex! OK, David, so then, that rim on Boguslavka is the alpha-2 zone of the ablated surface. Here's photo I just took of the piece I contracted from Cladni Heirs, terrible photo, but it shows beautifully that fusion heated rim (could be called part of the fusion crust I guess - but probably that's not scientifically ok, as it is not crusty but just heat-affected). The heat affected area that lost the structure is about 0.9mm in thickness (and so it is actually from ablative heating). Compare this photo with Martin's edge on slice where you can see that sliver thin burnished flakey fusion crust on top of this bright rim... http://www.diogenite.com/Bogy.jpg Thanks Metalmen Best wishes, Doug - Original Message - From: Alexander Seidel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 6:26 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Crusty the Clown crows: www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/BoguslavkaCrust1.jpg Boguslavka!!! Great iron, great Neumann lines (IIAB Hex)! Hey, I´m most critical regarding irons potentially rusting. But this has been a very stable one ever since it resides in my collection. In case Chladni´s heirs have more of this for sale, I recommend -- go get it! I have a Hoba slice in my collection, no, not the usual shale stuff, but a solid genuine slice - with a very good handover history from at least two of its (well-known) pre-owners. This one shows what one would superficially call a good crust, and when I bought it many many many years ago as a newbie from a well-known collector, I admit I still had to do a little research on it afterwards for myself why it looks how it looks. Crust on irons, but not only there, may be quite a tricky thing to have it interpreted correctly. (No, the Hoba is not for sale). Alex Berlin/Germany __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons / Blued metal
Anyone have an artificially blued meteorite to post? Here is an image of two specimens from my collection: http://www.astrometrica.at/Images/SikhoteCrust.jpg (Sorry, the image is not perefect. But hey, it's 1:30 AM here...!) The top specimen looks like most of the pieces available in the past years. Honetsly, I don't think that it's fresh fusion crust. At the left (and more so on the back), this specimen seems to be scarred by rust. But the rust is gone - hardly any trace of it now. I bet that anything that would remove the rust also would remove the fragile fusion crust. So I suppose that this (and most specimens available today, and thus most others I have) was blued, after the rust has been removed somehow. The bottom specimen still has it's original crust. Like the wonderful specimen shown by Martin, it has a thin rust film in the thumbprints. I suppose that minor rust (though not yet enough to scarr over the surface) formed quickly after the meteorites have impacted the humid siberian soil. So anything that has it's original fusion crust must have been recovered very soon after the fall. Note that the fusion crust of the lower specimen is less shiny, but more bluish, than on the upper piece. The differenc is more visible in the original specimens than on the image. If you have seen both types, it's not difficult to tell them apart. By the way: And I have another, soewhat larger inidviual with original crust. Any yes, the crust *is* thick enough to chip in some places, as seen here: http://www.astrometrica.at/Images/SikhoteChip.jpg Cheers, Herbert --- Versendet durch aonWebmail (webmail.aon.at) __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons was AD- Coins etc.
Oh, I don't think, that no fusion crust is possible on iron meteorites at all, but I wanted to exclude, that on such an stone-old iron like Morasko, could be fusion crust found. Boguslavka - one piece was found directly on the day of the fall, the other piece was recovered very soon later. So I think these dark layer with the little flow lines is true fusion crust, as the iron had no chance to be modified by weathering. Helpful in this respect was also the pictured Sikhote-Alin, where I send a link too. It was from a museum, absolutely pristine and uncleaned most probably from the first expditions from uncle Krinov. And it has a fusion crust! Not any blue haze of a few dozen micrometer as Norton writes, but rather a fusion crust a little less thick than a fingernail. Btw. missing in prominent edges. The crust hadn't it's original colour, a little bit oxidized to ochre. Small patches from such a kind of crust I found sparsly on a dozens or so modern Sikhotes out of thousands, which weren't so over-cleaned like most of the material, which nowadays is around. Most suppliers are selling tumbled, brushed ect. Sikhotes - I mean nowadays in as-found-condition they wouldn't be quite pretty - perhaps Ican can supply us with some pics. Those patches survived in regmaglyptes, sometimes showing concenting flow marks. With the famous blueish tint I'm a little bit at a loss. I found it from time to time on more carefully cleaned Sikhotes. (That they would artificially heated I exclude, if you remember, the Russians liked to oil their little specimens with a black and tough grease - so why the should have made them blue before?). That blueish tint must be indeed a very thin layer, easily to destroy while cleaning. Btw. I never saw a blue Sikhote-shrapnel. There I remember that fresh iron Hmani had 3 years ago in Munich, it was such a blue iridescent blue one. And sometimes one can see it at the rust free parts of Taza. Back to fat crust - on Udei Station I found some parts of a fat black crust, Lowicz, the mesosiderite, has a good black fusion crust... Well - a reheated rim is no indicator for a fusion crust, but where no reheated rim, there no fusion crust left, I'd say. Guanaco has a fine recrystallized rim and I guess on one side also a little crust, perhaps a fusion crust. Sooo - I'm no chemo-physicist, that's why I asked here on the list, so I have no idea, which mechanism could replace a fusion crust of younger iron falls and how to discern oxidation by fusion from erosion by weathering, But I refuse to believe, that such a thin and delicate fusion crust, thinner than 1mm, on a chunk of solid iron, could survive hundreds and thousands of years of terrestrial oxidation. For me don't exist fusion crusted Gibeons, Nantans, Brahins, Campos, Henburies, Mundrabillas and so on. And especially not with a Morasko, sitting in the moisture in a wet climate for thousands of years, especially not if it was thrown in acid to derust it. Well, I haven't munched the wisdom by spoon - (I don't make a great show of learning). Perhaps some one will enlight me? Yep - to sell desert varnish on stones as fusion crust is very popular on ebay. Buckleboo! Martin PS: http://cgi.ebay.com/19-8-kgs-NEW-CAMPO-DEL-CIELO-METEORITE-HUGE-46-pounds_W0 QQitemZ120057887354QQihZ002QQcategoryZ3239QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem That's also such a hero! Where the heck on his hundreds of Campos should be there fusion crust? They are freshly cleaned..ouch! -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Mr EMan Gesendet: Dienstag, 5. Dezember 2006 01:06 An: Martin Altmann; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons was AD- Coins etc. I am in agreement with Martin. This is a myth that we shouldn't allow to perpetuate on the list. An Iron/siderite my have an original ablation surface, as well as flow characteristics but won't have a fusion crust. There are many reasons I won't go into about why iron doesn't have the composition to glass up. It can and does develop a film of carbon and magnetite owing to combination with atmospheric oxygen. I think the phrase fusion crust has been repeated so often people have no idea what it really is. A freshly fallen iron may have a film or veneer that you can wipe off--but not a crust! So on this Norton and I disagree on semantics. As a side to all the claims of fusion crust on these sand blasted NWA's on Ebay --t'ain't so neither. The glass froth we know as fusion crust is gone. Fusion crust is easily worn away on exposed surfaces and easily etched when in contact with the soil. What remains is unmelted scorched matrix devoid of fusion crust. In the midst of this writing I see there is a healthy debate raging on the list. I'll post now and read later. Elton __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Would shikote Alin-like crust work? Blue steel, burn baby burn! Dave F. MexicoDoug wrote: Hi Gary, Fusion crust can be in the eyes of the beholder, so the difficulty with this question is we are making a one-size fits all definition. For the irons, you could get a vey thin local destruction of any crystalline patterns or figures (no longer etch), some chemical change from 'burning' up including colors. In the case of stones, it is a different and typically a glazed-silicate ceramic crust forms. It can get a rainbowish tint from burnishing, though it usually looks somewhat bluish. It's so thin that it quickly is lost to other mineralization in the oxidizing humid environment that is earth's. So there is a difference. But loosely thay can all be attributed to 'fusion' though in the case of iron it has a different characteristic. In either case, when the fusion crust is black, this is generally caused by oxidized iron during the entry, not terrestrialization. That is a main difference between what we see on many older irons in dry and stable environments. So, yes, irons can have a fusion crust, it is just not predominantly a ceramic kiln glaze best seen from some achondrites, which is the classic... Best wishes, Doug - Original Message - From: Gary K. Foote [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 1:26 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi All, Recently I have read a few posts to this list that definitively claim that irons do not form a fusion crust. Yet, in Norton's Rocks From Space, [pg 167 in my softbound edition] it clearly states the following; Iron meteorites have the thinnest crust of all, usually only a small fraction of a millimeter thick. A fresh crust is blue-black to black and looks like freshly welded steel. This crust is fragile and easily destroyed if the meteorite weathers for even a short time. So, which is true? Crust or no crust for irons? Gary Foote http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Hi all - Might non-iron inclusions explain some of the crusting? Might iron meteorites with inclusions actually fragment along inclusions during entry? Or might heating the inclusions cause fragmentation? I don't remember (hell, now a days I don't remember much of anything) any inclusions in Sikote Ailins, but from the notes here the crusts seem to pool in the remaglyphs (or is that vugs?) in these. Just some thoughts in the night. good hunting, Ed --- Dave Freeman mjwy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would shikote Alin-like crust work? Blue steel, burn baby burn! Dave F. MexicoDoug wrote: Hi Gary, Fusion crust can be in the eyes of the beholder, so the difficulty with this question is we are making a one-size fits all definition. For the irons, you could get a vey thin local destruction of any crystalline patterns or figures (no longer etch), some chemical change from 'burning' up including colors. In the case of stones, it is a different and typically a glazed-silicate ceramic crust forms. It can get a rainbowish tint from burnishing, though it usually looks somewhat bluish. It's so thin that it quickly is lost to other mineralization in the oxidizing humid environment that is earth's. So there is a difference. But loosely thay can all be attributed to 'fusion' though in the case of iron it has a different characteristic. In either case, when the fusion crust is black, this is generally caused by oxidized iron during the entry, not terrestrialization. That is a main difference between what we see on many older irons in dry and stable environments. So, yes, irons can have a fusion crust, it is just not predominantly a ceramic kiln glaze best seen from some achondrites, which is the classic... Best wishes, Doug - Original Message - From: Gary K. Foote [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 1:26 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi All, Recently I have read a few posts to this list that definitively claim that irons do not form a fusion crust. Yet, in Norton's Rocks From Space, [pg 167 in my softbound edition] it clearly states the following; Iron meteorites have the thinnest crust of all, usually only a small fraction of a millimeter thick. A fresh crust is blue-black to black and looks like freshly welded steel. This crust is fragile and easily destroyed if the meteorite weathers for even a short time. So, which is true? Crust or no crust for irons? Gary Foote http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Does anyone besides me believe that many of the Sikhote-Alin irons have been doctored to look better than they really are? Over the past several years I've heard several stories (rumors) that a lot of creative work has been used to make some of the SAs look as good as they do. One of the stories actually involved the application of liquid gun blueing. I've seen pictures of some of these beautiful specimens right out of the ground and they are pretty rusty. Best, John At 04:03 PM 12/4/2006, Gary K. Foote wrote: Beautiful sikhote. I love the blue sheen most of them have. Gary http://www.meteorite-dealres.com On 4 Dec 2006 at 14:54, Mike Bandli wrote: Crust on irons...most definitely! This Sikhote has THICK crust in some of the regmaglypts. Thick enough that you can chip it off. It's like Blued Gun Metal. http://www.astro-artifacts.com/Astroartifacts/Collection/SIKHOTE-296,14g.jpg Kind regards, Mike Bandli __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
