Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
From: JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com I know very well that many scientists consider dowsing as a type of superstition. According to my conviction this is, however, unjustified. The dowsing rod is a simple instrument which shows the reaction of the human nervous system to certain factors which are unknown to us at this time. - Albert Einstein Phil Whitmer I'm skeptical that Einstein ever said this. I have just searched the Einstein archive at http://www.alberteinstein.info/ for the word dowsing and did not find a single hit. Maybe he said it, but without a real citation with date and page number, or a facsimile of the letter - I'm very dubious. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 16:10:51 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: The closest thing I've seen was broadcast on TV over a decade ago, which I think originally aired in Australia. It was a supposed double-blind experiment run by none other than Randy himself. I think I may have stumbled on the video you are talking about: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7461912885649996034# Found while searching Bad Astronomy for links on the Iraqi dowsing rods story (because I remembered reading a few there in the past.) http://discovermagazine.com/search?SearchableText=dowsingSubmit.x=0Submit.y=0 (Caution-- this guy believes in crazzzy pseudoscience like black holes and exoplanets!) __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
I think I have to side with Einstein Michael On 10/13/10 5:38 PM, JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com wrote: I know very well that many scientists consider dowsing as a type of superstition. According to my conviction this is, however, unjustified. The dowsing rod is a simple instrument which shows the reaction of the human nervous system to certain factors which are unknown to us at this time. - Albert Einstein Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
In my experience, divining really just doesn't work, trouble is we want it to work, because it seems like it should, but if anyone has ever seen a so called psychic using a pendulum, you can see just what's going on. Positive reinforcement is a powerful thing! Notice how a device that's supposed to find water holes now seems to be able to find lay lines, gold, meteorites, water pipes, gas pipes, lost dogs, mineral viens. Etc etc!!! - dosen't this say something about human nature? i.e We are capable to duping ourselves into believing complete rubbish! Which is why I don't [still] don't walk under ladders, despite being a total skeptic!! Mark CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us. Email i...@ssl.gb.com. You should not copy or use this email or attachment(s) for any purpose nor disclose their contents to any other person. GENERAL STATEMENT: Southern Scientific Ltd's computer systems may be monitored and communications carried on them recorded, to secure the effective operation of the system and for other lawful purposes. Registered address Rectory Farm Rd, Sompting, Lancing, W Sussex BN15 0DP. Company No 1800317 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
I'd say Randi is a FAR better person to ask than Einstein, because unlike Einstein, Randi has actually looked at the matter closely, examined evidence, constructed and conducted well designed experiments. Similar to the general unreliability of a geologist or astronomer identifying a meteorite? Cheers, Pete From: c...@alumni.caltech.edu To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 23:14:35 -0600 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron I don't think Einstein's understanding of magnetic, electrical, or electromagnetic fields was appreciably greater than that of many other physicists. Nor his knowledge of the physics of everything in the universe. Not that it matters, since he clearly isn't suggesting that divining rods work through ordinary field mechanisms, but through factors that are unknown to us at this time. In other words, he has no idea. He is simply speculating on how such a device might work (if, in fact, it actually does). Why is Einstein a credible voice for something whose nature he can't even speculate on? Today, we know with a high degree of likelihood that they don't work, because they have actually been tested scientifically. And we are in a good position to say that if they were found to work, it would not be because of fields we understand. After all, we have exquisitely sensitive instruments for measuring those fields, and they certainly are not useful for detecting underground water. Underground metal, of course, is readily detected with instruments (as many here know!) And almost any physicist would be highly skeptical about any assertion of fields we know nothing about, and which the human nervous system responds to! That definitely falls into the extraordinary claim category (i.e., the sort of claim that requires extraordinary evidence). I'd say Randi is a FAR better person to ask than Einstein, because unlike Einstein, Randi has actually looked at the matter closely, examined evidence, constructed and conducted well designed experiments. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Meteorites USA To: Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 10:29 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron Hi Phil, I think Chris was referring to Einstein's knowledge of the physiological makeup of the human nervous system. Which Einstein would probably not in fact be qualified to answer on. I would think that a theoretical physicist would know a little about the physical system of the human body however. Einstein was a scientist, and must have studied something to that effect during his long education. So yes I would agree that Joe down the street might know more about physiology but that's highly unlikely. Einstein, early on, wrote The Investigation of the State of Aether in Magnetic Fields. And we all know and have probably read about the Special Theory of Relativity which I will not pretend to understand fully. Some might argue that Dowsing is possible because of electromagnetic fields somehow. Though I do not subscribe to the beliefs of dowsers, or dowsing in general, I would say that Einstein was much more knowledgeable about electromagnetic fields, gravitational fields, and physics of everything in the universe, than almost anyone. Who better to ask about dowsing? Dowsing is arguable and there is no hard scientific evidence it is real. However if Einstein were alive today this might be an interesting question to ask. In fact I would venture to say there is no better person to ask about the physics of it than a theoretical physicist. Except maybe a theoretical physicist with an open mind. Oh wait, that's doubly redundant. ;) Regards, Eric __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
The Classical Geeks?? -- From: JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 12:44 AM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron Hi Eric, A big Duh!! on my part. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. Chris, I concede your point, Albert was no expert on the human nervous system. And you're right, everyone is a philospher. And everyone says dumb stuff, e.g. look at all the silly things that Hawking says. When it comes to philosophy, give me the Classical Greeks any day. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
On 10/13/2010 7:22 PM, JoshuaTreeMuseum wrote: If the universe is random, then why is it so orderly and predictable? Because the dice are loaded. (not a joke) Thomas M __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
No. Because the dice have no pips. Martin A -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Thomas Gesendet: Donnerstag, 14. Oktober 2010 17:56 Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron On 10/13/2010 7:22 PM, JoshuaTreeMuseum wrote: If the universe is random, then why is it so orderly and predictable? Because the dice are loaded. (not a joke) Thomas M __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
No, I'm sure he believed it. People read horoscopes all the time, as well. That doesn't mean they work. People fool themselves into believing all sorts of crazy stuff. The fact that our brain finds patterns where none exist is the source of superstition! Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 12:48 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron Years ago, an employee of the local utility company told me his foreman always kept a pair of dowsing rods in his tool truck. He said he didn't know how or why they worked, and didn't care, they were just practical to use. At the time I thought he was b'sing me. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 10:14:52 -0600, you wrote: If someone out there with a baseball size or larger iron wouldn't mind performing a little test with it I would appreciate hearing back from them on how it turned out. To test what I had in mind you will need to make a couple metal divining rods out of coat hangers or something similar. Let me save you some time-- diving rods are superstitious bullshit. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
Maybe not the best method of locating but they do cross over some things. Water lines, phone lines, power lines, etc. I know they will cross over iron. Just curious if they will over meteoric iron also. On Oct 13, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Darren Garrison wrote: On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 10:14:52 -0600, you wrote: If someone out there with a baseball size or larger iron wouldn't mind performing a little test with it I would appreciate hearing back from them on how it turned out. To test what I had in mind you will need to make a couple metal divining rods out of coat hangers or something similar. Let me save you some time-- diving rods are superstitious bullshit. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
They do not cross over water, or over phone lines, or over anything else. Superstitious nonsense. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Michael Murray mmur...@montrose.net To: cyna...@charter.net Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron Maybe not the best method of locating but they do cross over some things. Water lines, phone lines, power lines, etc. I know they will cross over iron. Just curious if they will over meteoric iron also. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
I couldn't resist on this one. With all due respect,some of the members of the list need to visit www.randi.org Thanks Darren for telling it like it is. You could win a million bucks from the James Randi Educational Foundation if you can show that divining rods, or any other Hooey can be proven in a double blind test. Good luck. So far thousands have attempted and none have made it past the initial screening. Respectfully Orrin LaRue Skeptic Surprise, Arizona On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 9:23 AM, Darren Garrison cyna...@charter.net wrote: On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 10:14:52 -0600, you wrote: If someone out there with a baseball size or larger iron wouldn't mind performing a little test with it I would appreciate hearing back from them on how it turned out. To test what I had in mind you will need to make a couple metal divining rods out of coat hangers or something similar. Let me save you some time-- diving rods are superstitious bullshit. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
I respect everyone's opinion on this. I expected there would b quite a few that think the method is BS. I really wasn't looking into this as a way of hunting meteorites. Actually was wanting to know whether or not it works over meteoric iron as another possible method of culling man-made iron on the unknowns. Still hope some open-mined person will give it a try over their iron meteorite. All the best, Mike On Oct 13, 2010, at 10:54 AM, Or wrote: I couldn't resist on this one. With all due respect,some of the members of the list need to visit www.randi.org Thanks Darren for telling it like it is. You could win a million bucks from the James Randi Educational Foundation if you can show that divining rods, or any other Hooey can be proven in a double blind test. Good luck. So far thousands have attempted and none have made it past the initial screening. Respectfully Orrin LaRue Skeptic Surprise, Arizona On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 9:23 AM, Darren Garrison cyna...@charter.net wrote: On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 10:14:52 -0600, you wrote: If someone out there with a baseball size or larger iron wouldn't mind performing a little test with it I would appreciate hearing back from them on how it turned out. To test what I had in mind you will need to make a couple metal divining rods out of coat hangers or something similar. Let me save you some time-- diving rods are superstitious bullshit. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 09:54:10 -0700, you wrote: I couldn't resist on this one. With all due respect,some of the members of the list need to visit www.randi.org Randi himself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMtuWymUzz4 The ideomotor effect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideomotor_effect http://www.skepdic.com/dowsing.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
Hi All, I was in two minds about sharing this with the list as I am usually with Darren on this sort of stuff...but I just had to tell this storyand I am a complete non believer in these sorts of things! When visiting my friend on his farm many years ago we were watching some builders doing work on the estate and to my surprise they were using wire divining rods to find the drains running from and around the property so that they knew where to dig to do repairs on them. We were both disbelievers in such things. Now my friend knew exactly where the drains ran under his lawn and tennis court and he had seen the men using them the day before and talked to them about itthey had shown him what to do and he had had a go but although they did cross over drains he could not come to terms with it as he knew where they were anyway, so thought that must influence them crossing in some way. He gave them to me and left me walking around the lawn and tennis court whilst he went and fed the cattle. I wandered around putting small pegs in the ground where I felt them crossI ended up with two lines across the lawn. When he returned he was very bemused as I was right on top of the two drainshe even showed me where they came out in the ditch on the edge. I had no idea where they would be. I still to this day cannot explain it apart from it just being chance or something else connected with the drains had influenced mebut we did look around to see what that might belike a dip in the ground or darker grass or similarbut we never figured anything out. I am still not convincedbut then again why did the builders/workmen use them if they do not work or helpthey would be digging lots of pointless holes and that would not be good for business??? One of those experiences that has always made me wonder. Graham UK On 13 October 2010 18:46, Darren Garrison cyna...@charter.net wrote: On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 09:54:10 -0700, you wrote: I couldn't resist on this one. With all due respect,some of the members of the list need to visit www.randi.org Randi himself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMtuWymUzz4 The ideomotor effect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideomotor_effect http://www.skepdic.com/dowsing.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
Interesting story Graham. I'm also not convinced by these claims and have never seen a truly uncorrupted experiment of these claims. The closest thing I've seen was broadcast on TV over a decade ago, which I think originally aired in Australia. It was a supposed double-blind experiment run by none other than Randy himself. I may not remember all of the particulars exactly but I do remember that the experiment involved a number of dowsers, 5 covered or buried plastic pipes and several different types of fluids, all involving multiple runs. I know water and gasoline were two of the fluids and various runs had the fluids both static and flowing. Not unexpectedly, all of the results were random... All results with the exception of one. The dowsers were very obviously picking the correct pipe that contained flowing water. And I don't mean a slight increase in the statistics. It was strong positive result and an obvious anomaly in the data. Ever since then I've been intrigued by this result. Not convinced, but intrigued. Unfortunately at the end of the program, the not-so-amazing Randy manipulated his results to show no statistically significant positive in the results, even though they had shown just the opposite and the chart of the results behind him also showed that there was. It was at that moment that the not-so-amazing Randy lost all credibility as a debunker and all of his results must be just as suspect as those results he claims to be disproving. He proved to me he and his results are untrustworthy. I've certainly ignored him ever since then. I'm still waiting to see a real, double blind, uncorrupted experiment on this, several in fact, before I'm convinced that there is a real effect at work here. -- Richard Kowalski Full Moon Photography IMCA #1081 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
Hi Richard, Yes I am of a similar mind...not convinced but intrigued. The unexplained in this world is always intriguing and I suppose its what inspires the inquisitive mind, scientist, artist or just plain weirdo to look for their own answer. Keep up the good work, Cheers, Graham On 14 October 2010 00:10, Richard Kowalski damoc...@yahoo.com wrote: Interesting story Graham. I'm also not convinced by these claims and have never seen a truly uncorrupted experiment of these claims. The closest thing I've seen was broadcast on TV over a decade ago, which I think originally aired in Australia. It was a supposed double-blind experiment run by none other than Randy himself. I may not remember all of the particulars exactly but I do remember that the experiment involved a number of dowsers, 5 covered or buried plastic pipes and several different types of fluids, all involving multiple runs. I know water and gasoline were two of the fluids and various runs had the fluids both static and flowing. Not unexpectedly, all of the results were random... All results with the exception of one. The dowsers were very obviously picking the correct pipe that contained flowing water. And I don't mean a slight increase in the statistics. It was strong positive result and an obvious anomaly in the data. Ever since then I've been intrigued by this result. Not convinced, but intrigued. Unfortunately at the end of the program, the not-so-amazing Randy manipulated his results to show no statistically significant positive in the results, even though they had shown just the opposite and the chart of the results behind him also showed that there was. It was at that moment that the not-so-amazing Randy lost all credibility as a debunker and all of his results must be just as suspect as those results he claims to be disproving. He proved to me he and his results are untrustworthy. I've certainly ignored him ever since then. I'm still waiting to see a real, double blind, uncorrupted experiment on this, several in fact, before I'm convinced that there is a real effect at work here. -- Richard Kowalski Full Moon Photography IMCA #1081 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 16:10:51 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: The closest thing I've seen was broadcast on TV over a decade ago, which I think originally aired in Australia. It was a supposed double-blind experiment run by none other than Randy himself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VAasVXtCOI I'm still waiting to see a real, double blind, uncorrupted experiment on this, several in fact, before I'm convinced that there is a real effect at work here. It is actually caused by an infinite amount of magnetite in our wrists. http://www.mail-archive.com/meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com/msg72163.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
Good one! Sent from my iPod On Oct 13, 2010, at 17:38, JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com wrote: I know very well that many scientists consider dowsing as a type of superstition. According to my conviction this is, however, unjustified. The dowsing rod is a simple instrument which shows the reaction of the human nervous system to certain factors which are unknown to us at this time. - Albert Einstein Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 20:38:52 -0400, you wrote: I know very well that many scientists consider dowsing as a type of superstition. According to my conviction this is, however, unjustified. The dowsing rod is a simple instrument which shows the reaction of the human nervous system to certain factors which are unknown to us at this time. - Albert Einstein Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the old one. I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice. -Albert Einstein (Just in case the jab wasn't obvious, Einstein was wrong.) __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
Thanks Darren. Interesting video. As I said, the anomalous result that Randy got was for flowing water, not static. Of course that wasn't the point of my post but that he had apparently manipulated his data to support his conclusion, or his experiment was flawed yielding false positives. Either way, I can't and don't rely on him as a credible debunker. Dawkins is much more rigorous, reliable and believable, but again while this was a well done experiment, it is still an incomplete one. No matter, as I said the not-so-amazing Randy's experiment had a strange result, the cause of which I would like to understand. Either way that doesn't sway me to believe dowsing is real, only that Randy's results are not reliable. That's the last I'll say on both subjects. Cheers -- Richard Kowalski Full Moon Photography IMCA #1081 --- On Wed, 10/13/10, Darren Garrison cyna...@charter.net wrote: From: Darren Garrison cyna...@charter.net Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Wednesday, October 13, 2010, 4:48 PM On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 16:10:51 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: The closest thing I've seen was broadcast on TV over a decade ago, which I think originally aired in Australia. It was a supposed double-blind experiment run by none other than Randy himself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VAasVXtCOI I'm still waiting to see a real, double blind, uncorrupted experiment on this, several in fact, before I'm convinced that there is a real effect at work here. It is actually caused by an infinite amount of magnetite in our wrists. http://www.mail-archive.com/meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com/msg72163.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
This is a lovely example of the logical fallacy called Appeal to Authority. Einstein is no more qualified to offer an expert opinion on this matter than your average Joe. His opinion should not impress anybody. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 6:38 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron I know very well that many scientists consider dowsing as a type of superstition. According to my conviction this is, however, unjustified. The dowsing rod is a simple instrument which shows the reaction of the human nervous system to certain factors which are unknown to us at this time. - Albert Einstein Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
Phil, good one, as we embark upon the unkown in the philisophicList, allow me to share my simplistic view: as a human, I can't possibly explain what I'm not capable of explaining, (and will take the bold step here to include the brightest among us: thanks you guys and gals with the knowledge and credentials to keep probing, publishing, questioning and postulating, discovering and debating, concluding and questioning)... Isn't this why we explore and explain within scientific context? Until we become the inventer of the Universe, we remain students of discovery. Humble pie! - Original Message - From: JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 7:22 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron Either that, or as Albert thought, the central tenet, the core belief in randomness that lays the foundation of quantum mechanics is wrong. When Al says that He doesn't throw dice, he's expressing a disbelief in the randomness of the universe. He's echoing the teleological beliefs of Aristotle and Plato, who thought there may be a purpose to the universe. Modern science is in the grip of Democritus and Epicurus who believed in a strictly materialist, reductionist view of the meaninglessness and random nature of the universe. Science can explain the what and the how, but is at a loss to explain the why. The new quantum theory of randomness did not explain the secrets of the orderly Newtonian world to Albert. If the universe is random, then why is it so orderly and predictable? I think Einstein is right in this case. I know he goofed on the cosmological constant kerfuffle, but really, who are we to judge one of the greatest scientific minds of our time? --- Phil Whitmer --- On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 20:38:52 -0400, you wrote: I know very well that many scientists consider dowsing as a type of superstition. According to my conviction this is, however, unjustified. The dowsing rod is a simple instrument which shows the reaction of the human nervous system to certain factors which are unknown to us at this time. - Albert Einstein Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the old one. I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice. -Albert Einstein (Just in case the jab wasn't obvious, Einstein was wrong.) __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
He isn't offering an opinion on theoretical physics. He's talking about a phenomenon which there's no evidence he has studied, and he's talking about physiology, about which he was not an expert. Einstein is stating a philosophical viewpoint, not a scientific one. He wrote a good deal about philosophical matters- much of it rather amateurish. So I'll stick by my original assessment: in this matter, Einstein's opinion carries no special weight. This is an absolutely classic example of the fallacy of appeal to authority. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 9:57 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron Chris, Let me get this straight, the author of Special Relativity is unqualified to offer an expert opinion on theoretical physics. I would be better off conferring with Joe Blow from Kokomo, the guy that picks through the trash in the alley. Joe claims to have invented string theory, but lost his mathematical abilities in a motorcycle accident. Let me see now, when it comes to matters of physics, I should appeal not the authority of the inventor of E=mc2, but to Crazy Joe. Now that's what I would call fallacious reasoning at its best! Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
Hi Phil, I think Chris was referring to Einstein's knowledge of the physiological makeup of the human nervous system. Which Einstein would probably not in fact be qualified to answer on. I would think that a theoretical physicist would know a little about the physical system of the human body however. Einstein was a scientist, and must have studied something to that effect during his long education. So yes I would agree that Joe down the street might know more about physiology but that's highly unlikely. Einstein, early on, wrote The Investigation of the State of Aether in Magnetic Fields. And we all know and have probably read about the Special Theory of Relativity which I will not pretend to understand fully. Some might argue that Dowsing is possible because of electromagnetic fields somehow. Though I do not subscribe to the beliefs of dowsers, or dowsing in general, I would say that Einstein was much more knowledgeable about electromagnetic fields, gravitational fields, and physics of everything in the universe, than almost anyone. Who better to ask about dowsing? Dowsing is arguable and there is no hard scientific evidence it is real. However if Einstein were alive today this might be an interesting question to ask. In fact I would venture to say there is no better person to ask about the physics of it than a theoretical physicist. Except maybe a theoretical physicist with an open mind. Oh wait, that's doubly redundant. ;) Regards, Eric On 10/13/2010 8:57 PM, JoshuaTreeMuseum wrote: Chris, Let me get this straight, the author of Special Relativity is unqualified to offer an expert opinion on theoretical physics. I would be better off conferring with Joe Blow from Kokomo, the guy that picks through the trash in the alley. Joe claims to have invented string theory, but lost his mathematical abilities in a motorcycle accident. Let me see now, when it comes to matters of physics, I should appeal not the authority of the inventor of E=mc2, but to Crazy Joe. Now that's what I would call fallacious reasoning at its best! Phil Whitmer --- This is a lovely example of the logical fallacy called Appeal to Authority. Einstein is no more qualified to offer an expert opinion on this matter than your average Joe. His opinion should not impress anybody. Chris __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron
I don't think Einstein's understanding of magnetic, electrical, or electromagnetic fields was appreciably greater than that of many other physicists. Nor his knowledge of the physics of everything in the universe. Not that it matters, since he clearly isn't suggesting that divining rods work through ordinary field mechanisms, but through factors that are unknown to us at this time. In other words, he has no idea. He is simply speculating on how such a device might work (if, in fact, it actually does). Why is Einstein a credible voice for something whose nature he can't even speculate on? Today, we know with a high degree of likelihood that they don't work, because they have actually been tested scientifically. And we are in a good position to say that if they were found to work, it would not be because of fields we understand. After all, we have exquisitely sensitive instruments for measuring those fields, and they certainly are not useful for detecting underground water. Underground metal, of course, is readily detected with instruments (as many here know!) And almost any physicist would be highly skeptical about any assertion of fields we know nothing about, and which the human nervous system responds to! That definitely falls into the extraordinary claim category (i.e., the sort of claim that requires extraordinary evidence). I'd say Randi is a FAR better person to ask than Einstein, because unlike Einstein, Randi has actually looked at the matter closely, examined evidence, constructed and conducted well designed experiments. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 10:29 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron Hi Phil, I think Chris was referring to Einstein's knowledge of the physiological makeup of the human nervous system. Which Einstein would probably not in fact be qualified to answer on. I would think that a theoretical physicist would know a little about the physical system of the human body however. Einstein was a scientist, and must have studied something to that effect during his long education. So yes I would agree that Joe down the street might know more about physiology but that's highly unlikely. Einstein, early on, wrote The Investigation of the State of Aether in Magnetic Fields. And we all know and have probably read about the Special Theory of Relativity which I will not pretend to understand fully. Some might argue that Dowsing is possible because of electromagnetic fields somehow. Though I do not subscribe to the beliefs of dowsers, or dowsing in general, I would say that Einstein was much more knowledgeable about electromagnetic fields, gravitational fields, and physics of everything in the universe, than almost anyone. Who better to ask about dowsing? Dowsing is arguable and there is no hard scientific evidence it is real. However if Einstein were alive today this might be an interesting question to ask. In fact I would venture to say there is no better person to ask about the physics of it than a theoretical physicist. Except maybe a theoretical physicist with an open mind. Oh wait, that's doubly redundant. ;) Regards, Eric __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
