[uf-new] Re: Namespace anti-pattern and hAudio TITLE
Manu wrote: Does it? If 'country-name' isn't namespaced, then we could get rid of country and 'name' by itself would have an unambiguous meaning. I think you're missing the distinction between 'namespace' and 'context', like Tantek suggested. Basically, you're stating the reductio for your own position -- you're basically saying that all adjectives are namespaces, and that's clearly incorrect. However, if we were to do that in practice, 'name' wouldn't mean 'country name' anymore... it would be more ambiguous. By being more ambiguous, we're stating that the prefix that we removed, 'country', actually does have semantic meaning. *Of course* 'country' has semantic meaning. It's an adjective that provides context for 'name'. But context does not a namespace make... 'country' is a namespace that gives scope to the following 'name' by specifying that we are talking about a 'country name' and not a 'person name'. No, country does that because of its adjective-ness, not its namespace-ness. Ted -- Edward O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem. ___ microformats-new mailing list microformats-new@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new
[uf-new] Introduction to Microformats
Manu, In a thread Re: [uf-new] Namespace anti-pattern and hAudio TITLE Manu wrote: Welcome to Microformat's, Walter :) Just a small pointer - microformats-new is for the design/debate/discussion for new Microformats under development. It's a pretty harsh place to start out learning about Microformats - you can learn a great deal from this list, but it's not meant as an introductory discussion group. Is the workofart one of the ones under development? It looks a bit lost: http://www.microformats.org/wiki/workofart-formats Could that be revived here on this list? ~ http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss/ Ok, I will join microformats-discuss I need to do that to see if I am on the right track for my situation, I will go there for that. I am looking here at the moment at following the steps here: http://www.microformats.org/wiki/process That being said - if you could stomach the discussion about namespaces, you should do fine on this list :) I am a programming virgin but a Philosophy graduate so this sort of thing is quite fun, but I can see it could go off-topic. I am going to POSHify my site, I'll learn by doing, and return here later. Walter ___ microformats-new mailing list microformats-new@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new
Re: [uf-new] Namespace anti-pattern and hAudio TITLE
Manu Sporny wrote: So does every microformat, regardless of the context need to be unique? It depends on what you mean by unique. If you mean, do the class names have to be unique, then yes, they do have to be unique. I suppose you mean it depends on what I mean by Microformat? Are FN and title class names? I presume not as I understand it so far, FN is not unique and potentially title is not? I am hoping to mix hCard, xfn and hArt if it were there, I saw a start on it? I will start some new threads. Yes, you can mix hCard and xfn on the same page, and even in the same paragraph. Good. Walter ___ microformats-new mailing list microformats-new@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new
[no sig]RE: [uf-new] Dublin Core (was: hAudio FN or Title)
Thank you David, that's very interesting. It would fill a pretty important gap in describing basic phenomena - time, place, and agents have their uF but not things, in the general sense. Even the simplest container, DC questions aside, would be a very useful step. Cheers, Jeremy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Janes Sent: 04 February 2008 17:30 To: For discussion of new microformats. Subject: Re: RE: [uf-new] Dublin Core (was: hAudio FN or Title) There's been information collected about how an item microformat would work, though by no means consider this official, blessed, voted upon, or even official proposed. If anyone is really serious about going down this road, I suggest going back though the mailing list archives, especially around the time hAudio was getting to 0.1. For the record, my idea (now) of hItem would work is: - as the _intersection_ of item attributes, roughly ;-) - as a building block for use in other uFs, following the process I'm still lurking at hAudio discussions to see how this is all working out. ___ microformats-new mailing list microformats-new@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new
Re: [uf-new] Namespace anti-pattern and hAudio TITLE
I'm going to vote with Tantek on this one. I'm sympathetic to what you're saying Manu, but after 2 or 3 years on this list and seeing the same topics come up over and over that really aren't going to change. Not because they're not (necessarily) bad ideas, but that they're outside of almost the core definitions of microformats at this point. Based on this discussion, I've added a but hAtom uses namespaces, doesn't it section to the namespaces page. Regards, etc... On Feb 5, 2008 5:01 AM, Walter Logeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Manu Sporny wrote: So does every microformat, regardless of the context need to be unique? It depends on what you mean by unique. If you mean, do the class names have to be unique, then yes, they do have to be unique. I suppose you mean it depends on what I mean by Microformat? Are FN and title class names? I presume not as I understand it so far, FN is not unique and potentially title is not? I am hoping to mix hCard, xfn and hArt if it were there, I saw a start on it? I will start some new threads. Yes, you can mix hCard and xfn on the same page, and even in the same paragraph. Good. Walter ___ microformats-new mailing list microformats-new@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onaswarm.com http://www.onamine.com ___ microformats-new mailing list microformats-new@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new
Re: [uf-new] Re: Namespace anti-pattern and hAudio TITLE
Edward O'Connor wrote: Manu wrote: Does it? If 'country-name' isn't namespaced, then we could get rid of country and 'name' by itself would have an unambiguous meaning. I think you're missing the distinction between 'namespace' and 'context', like Tantek suggested. I assure you, I am not missing the distinction. I have quoted the definitions in the literature to back up what I'm asserting. Please read the namespace-inconsistency-issue page before making statements to that effect (I have updated it to reflect your comments): http://microformats.org/wiki/namespaces-inconsistency-issue All definitions are clearly cited - note that nobody else is citing definitions to what namespace means in this discussion. If you would like to cite some examples that support your viewpoint, that would be great. :) Basically, you're stating the reductio for your own position -- you're basically saying that all adjectives are namespaces, and that's clearly incorrect. This is what I'm saying: context/scope provide an enclosing structure that provides semantic meaning to the elements that it encloses.[1] When you name a context/scope, it is called a namespace.[2] *Of course* 'country' has semantic meaning. It's an adjective that provides context for 'name'. But context does not a namespace make... No, but a named context is a namespace. It's right there in your first semester programming languages text book (which I've cited several of them on the namespaces-inconsistency-issue page). 'country' is a namespace that gives scope to the following 'name' by specifying that we are talking about a 'country name' and not a 'person name'. No, country does that because of its adjective-ness, not its namespace-ness. In this case, they're the same thing. In general, I would go as far to say that adjectives and adverbs, by definition, are namespaces because they provide finer context for the subject that they describe AND they are named. A named context is... a namespace. -- manu [1]http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=context [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scope_%28programming%29 ___ microformats-new mailing list microformats-new@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new
[uf-new] namespaces-inconsistency-issue page updated
The namespaces inconsistency issue page has been updated with the current state of this discussion. I'm going to drop the issue (once again) since it seems to be making several people uncomfortable. http://microformats.org/wiki/namespaces-inconsistency-issue Please read the page and update the page if you see something that is factually inaccurate or needs re-wording. More importantly, if you would like to see the Microformats community address this issue (and not ignore it like we've been doing), please sign the Sympathetic to the Cause section of the page: http://microformats.org/wiki/namespaces-inconsistency-issue#Sympathetic_to_the_Cause To sign, just log into the wiki and use or /Your Name/. -- manu ___ microformats-new mailing list microformats-new@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new
Re: [uf-new] Namespace anti-pattern and hAudio TITLE
David Janes wrote: I'm going to vote with Tantek on this one. I'm sympathetic to what you're saying Manu, but after 2 or 3 years on this list and seeing the same topics come up over and over that really aren't going to change. I'm not asking the community to change it's stance on fully qualified namespaces. I'm asking the community to clarify their position based on their implementation history in hCard and hAtom: http://microformats.org/wiki/namespaces-inconsistency-issue The reason these topics keep coming up over and over again is because they are defined vaguely and inconsistently on the wiki. That leads to confusion. Confusion leads to the discussion we just had. -- manu ___ microformats-new mailing list microformats-new@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new
Re: [uf-new] Introduction to Microformats
Walter Logeman wrote: Is the workofart one of the ones under development? It currently has nobody pushing the format forward. It looks a bit lost: http://www.microformats.org/wiki/workofart-formats Could that be revived here on this list? It could be revived - but be ready to do a ton of work if you pick it up. It took around 500+ hours of work by the editor and around 250+ hours (estimated) of work by list participants to get hAudio to where it is today. Pushing a Microformat forward is not for the faint of heart... but if you're okay with doing that sort of work for the public good, by all means, push hArt forward. That being said - if you could stomach the discussion about namespaces, you should do fine on this list :) I am a programming virgin but a Philosophy graduate so this sort of thing is quite fun, but I can see it could go off-topic. Good :) - there is quite a bit of borrowed philosophy from a variety of disciplines wrapped up in Microformats. It's interesting to see the intersection of the philosophies of linguistics, computer science, working for the public domain, and what people find easy and intuitive implement. I am going to POSHify my site, I'll learn by doing, and return here later. That's the best place to start... :) -- manu ___ microformats-new mailing list microformats-new@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new
[uf-new] Resolution of issues (was: namespaces bad topic for uf mailing lists reminder)
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Manu Sporny [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Is that why you RESOLVED the issue without consulting the list first? What proportion of resolved (sic) issues are debated here first? If Andy did something like that, he'd be up for another ban... Speaking of which I note, with disappointment but no surprise, that none of the issues I raised in http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-December/011032.html and: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-December/011033.html have been responded to, by any of the admins. -- Andy Mabbett ___ microformats-new mailing list microformats-new@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new
