Re: OpenBSD xen and AWS

[All]

Antoine, I actually did use that repo for building and running openbsd on AWS.

Unfortunately, I don't have access to physical openbsd machine to create vmdk 
now.
So, I had to resort to running qemu and installing openbsd there, followed by 
the 
steps I outlined below.

There was a community AMI in us-east-1 till about last week (openbsd 7.0). 
It is now gone though.




On Friday, October 27, 2023 at 12:21:45 a.m. GMT+9, Antoine Jacoutot 
 wrote: 





On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 12:01:06PM +, All wrote:

> OK, thanks to Mike and Antoine!
> I tried with t2 instances (current generation - the only choice present), yet
> still no dice. Perhaps, the issue is with how I created the image.
> I used qemu, created qcow2, installed openbsd, converted qcow2 to raw 
> and then with vmdktool converted raw to vmdk.
> AWS recognized vmdk with out any issue and booted it. But no xnf0 interfaces 
> were detected.


Try this. Somehat ugly but it works for me (tm).
https://github.com/ajacoutot/aws-openbsd

Re: USB serial local getty terminal re-prompts for login on any input

[Theo de Raadt]

ktrace -di of the process will show what is going on



Crystal Kolipe  wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 12:20:08PM -0400, Morgan Aldridge wrote:
> > Yes, your assumption was correct, every keypress acts as if I had pressed
> > enter. Thanks for confirming!
> 
> Getty re-displays the login prompt when it sees either 0x00 or 0x80 on the
> serial line.  In fact, you can do it from the normal framebuffer console too,
> just hit control-@ at the login prompt and it should repeat.
> 
> (This is a historic behaviour which was once used for semi-automatic baud rate
>  selection where you hit 'BREAK' a few times to get the remote end to cycle
>  through all the speeds it supported until you, (hopefully), got a login
>  prompt).
> 
> So in your case, it seems that either the terminal is putting something on the
> serial data lines that the USB serial adaptor is interpreting as nulls, or
> possibly it's doing something with the handshaking lines that makes the
> USB serial adaptor generate the equivalent internally.
> 
> Any extra nulls added as padding bytes probably wouldn't show up in the
> loopback test either, because the terminal would just happily ignore them.
> 

Re: What could cause high CPU load averages (no actual CPU usage)?

[Justin Yates Fletcher]

On Wed, 2023-10-25 at 20:25 -0400, Raul Miller wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 8:16 PM Justin Yates Fletcher
>  wrote:
> > On Wed, 2023-10-25 at 21:12 +0200, Mike Fischer wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Am 25.10.2023 um 17:57 schrieb Theo de Raadt
> > > > :
> > > > Mike Fischer  wrote:
> > > > > > Am 25.10.2023 um 17:29 schrieb Theo de Raadt
> > > > We changed a lot of kernel scheduling code *without giving a
> > > > damn
> > > > about the stability of this number*
> > > 
> > > Fine, but you are not changing my running Kernel, are you?
> > 
> > I don't understand your point with this. Are you making an
> > accusation?
> > If not, then why even write this?
> 
> I think Mike Fischer's point was that the change did not correspond
> to
> a kernel upgrade.
> 

It is hyperbole or accusational... or somewhere on that spectrum.
Either way, it serves no valuable purpose, so why even write that?

Also, there was a kernel change: 7.4. Pretty sure that was mentioned.


> (And I think Theo de Raadt's point was that there's not enough rigor
> on load average to diagnose this issue.)
> 

Theo's point, as I read it, was just that the load average is
calculated in the same way as before, even though there have been
changes in other parts of the system that could affect it.   

It has nothing to do with rigor. The OS could just always report 0.0. 
If you start artifically changing a metric, for the sake of rigor, then
that metric is no longer valuable:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law

Changing how a mertic is calculated to meet a target certainly reduces
the value of the metric, right?


Justin

Re: USB serial local getty terminal re-prompts for login on any input

[Crystal Kolipe]

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 12:20:08PM -0400, Morgan Aldridge wrote:
> Yes, your assumption was correct, every keypress acts as if I had pressed
> enter. Thanks for confirming!

Getty re-displays the login prompt when it sees either 0x00 or 0x80 on the
serial line.  In fact, you can do it from the normal framebuffer console too,
just hit control-@ at the login prompt and it should repeat.

(This is a historic behaviour which was once used for semi-automatic baud rate
 selection where you hit 'BREAK' a few times to get the remote end to cycle
 through all the speeds it supported until you, (hopefully), got a login
 prompt).

So in your case, it seems that either the terminal is putting something on the
serial data lines that the USB serial adaptor is interpreting as nulls, or
possibly it's doing something with the handshaking lines that makes the
USB serial adaptor generate the equivalent internally.

Any extra nulls added as padding bytes probably wouldn't show up in the
loopback test either, because the terminal would just happily ignore them.

Re: Donations

[deich...@placebonol.com]

also, consider https://www.openbsd.org/want.html as another form of donation

73
diana

Re: Donations

[Ingo Schwarze]

Hi,

Theo de Raadt wrote on Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 12:14:43PM -0600:
> Joel Carnat  wrote:
>> Le 26 oct. 2023 à 16:38, Ingo Schwarze  a écrit :

>>> The advice is extremely simple:
>>> 
>>> If you can, donate directly to the OpenBSD project because that means
>>> 1. the donation can be used for any purpose, including all purposes
>>>that can be funded by the foundation and some that can't
>>> 2. it causes less overhead, less paperwork, less bookkeeping effort,
>>>hence fewer distractions of developers from actual development
>>> 
>>> Use the Foundation only if *you* have a specific reason why your
>>> specific donation can only be made through the Foundation and not
>>> directly.  If you don't know, then it seems to me you have no specific
>>> reason, so donating directly is better.

>> Maybe it should be written this way on the donations.html page
>> of the web site. Having the reference to "PayPal recurring" for the
>> Fondation coming first made me assume this was the preferred way
>> to donate.
>> 
>> But if I understand you properly, using the other PayPal links
>> should rather be used, right?

> Sorry Ingo, that's incorrect.

Oops, sorry for sending outdated and/or misleading information.

In that case, a change to donations.html probably isn't needed.

Yours,
  Ingo

> In my view it is better to donate via the OpenBSD Foundation, and then
> use their not-for-profit procedures.
> 
> The direct donations can be considered 'fast cash'.  I'm thrilled there
> is a bit of fast cash available so I can immediately solve some problems
> with urgency -- without reaching out to the OpenBSD Foundation and
> waiting for their approval process.  But for most things (hackathons,
> hardware, other major project costs) I believe the transparency they
> supply is a good thing.

Re: Donations

[Theo de Raadt]

Joel Carnat  wrote:

> > Le 26 oct. 2023 à 16:38, Ingo Schwarze  a écrit :
> > 
> > The advice is extremely simple:
> > 
> > If you can, donate directly to the OpenBSD project because that means
> > 1. the donation can be used for any purpose, including all purposes
> >that can be funded by the foundation and some that can't
> > 2. it causes less overhead, less paperwork, less bookkeeping effort,
> >hence fewer distractions of developers from actual development
> > 
> > Use the Foundation only if *you* have a specific reason why your
> > specific donation can only be made through the Foundation and not
> > directly.  If you don't know, then it seems to me you have no specific
> > reason, so donating directly is better.
> > 
> > Yours,
> >  Ingo
> 
> Maybe it should be written this way on the donations.html page of the web 
> site. Having the reference to "PayPal recurring" for the Fondation coming 
> first made me assume this was the preferred way to donate.
> 
> But if I understand you properly, using the other PayPal links should rather 
> be used, right?

Sorry Ingo, that's incorrect.

In my view it is better to donate via the OpenBSD Foundation, and then
use their not-for-profit procedures.

The direct donations can be considered 'fast cash'.  I'm thrilled there
is a bit of fast cash available so I can immediately solve some problems
with urgency -- without reaching out to the OpenBSD Foundation and
waiting for their approval process.  But for most things (hackathons,
hardware, other major project costs) I believe the transparency they
supply is a good thing.

Re: PineView not using the whole screen

[Daniele B.]

Crystal Kolipe :

> On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 03:43:20PM +0200, Daniele B. wrote:
>> Thanks a lot, appreciated, I solved with 12$ more in my wallet now.
> 
> Then you've saved enough cash to buy three of these:
> 
> https://pckeyboard.com/page/product/PANIC


Thinking we are all missing the OpenBSD red phone in silicon, in case there is 
no misc

-- Daniele Bonini

Re: Donations

[Joel Carnat]

> Le 26 oct. 2023 à 16:38, Ingo Schwarze  a écrit :
> 
> The advice is extremely simple:
> 
> If you can, donate directly to the OpenBSD project because that means
> 1. the donation can be used for any purpose, including all purposes
>that can be funded by the foundation and some that can't
> 2. it causes less overhead, less paperwork, less bookkeeping effort,
>hence fewer distractions of developers from actual development
> 
> Use the Foundation only if *you* have a specific reason why your
> specific donation can only be made through the Foundation and not
> directly.  If you don't know, then it seems to me you have no specific
> reason, so donating directly is better.
> 
> Yours,
>  Ingo

Maybe it should be written this way on the donations.html page of the web site. 
Having the reference to "PayPal recurring" for the Fondation coming first made 
me assume this was the preferred way to donate.

But if I understand you properly, using the other PayPal links should rather be 
used, right?

Thanks,
Joel C.

Re: a2ps error; printing utf8 to a postscipt printer

[Antoine Jacoutot]

On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 09:10:05AM +0200, Antoine Jacoutot wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 05:22:37PM +0200, rsyk...@disroot.org wrote:
> > Dear list,
> > 
> > 
> > after upgrading to OpenBSD 7.4 (as far as I can tell),
> > a2ps program stopped working:
> > 
> > ;a2ps /home/ruda/mnt/tarkil/SIMUL/acceptance/accept1detE0.ijs  
> > [/home/ruda/mnt/tarkil/SIMUL/acceptance/accept1detE0.ijs (plain): 2 pages 
> > on 1 sheet]
> > Usage: a2ps-lpr-wrapper [-d printer] FILE...
> > a2ps: received SIGPIPE
> > 
> > It seems to me that a2ps-lpr-wrapper expects a FILE argument,
> > while a2ps (which invokes the wrapper?) does not supply one...
> > 
> > Has anybody else had this issue?
> > Thanks for comments.
> > 
> > Loosely related: What program do you use to print utf8
> > encoded text file to a postscipt printer? (Neither a2ps, nor
> > enscript does it. At this moment I either remove any
> > diacritics with 'recode -f utf8..flat ...', or open the
> > file in gedit and print from there. I heard there is
> > 'paps' and 'cedilla' programs, but neither is in ports
> > and I failed to compile the former as cloned from github.)
> 
> See https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?64047
> I will cook up a patch.

Fixed on stable and current; thanks.

-- 
Antoine

Re: USB serial local getty terminal re-prompts for login on any input

[Morgan Aldridge]

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 6:26 AM Crystal Kolipe 
wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 01:35:39PM -0400, Morgan Aldridge wrote:
> > On the terminal, keeping the same 9600 8N1 settings, but enabling local
> > echo, and shorting the TX/RX pins gets me duplicated input with no odd
> > characters or breaks (AFAICT).
> >
> > On the OpenBSD side (with getty disabled on the tty, of course), I ran
> `cu
> > dr -l ttyU1 -s 9600` and jumped the TX/RX pins, and confirmed that the
> > characters entered were received back without any breaks or odd
> characters
> > (though there's no local echo.) I confirmed that cu(1) is just not
> echoing
> > locally by un-jumping the TX/RX pins and seeing that I did _not_ receive
> > the characters entered.
>
> OK, so the hardware is essentially working, that's good.
>
> Could you confirm exactly what you meant when you said:
>
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 11:37:10PM -0400, Morgan Aldridge wrote:
> > Unfortunately, regardless of what input is provided on the
> > terminal, getty(8) just sends a new login prompt.
>
> Do you mean that:
>
> 1. Any single keypress triggers a new login prompt, (as if you were
> pressing
>enter each time).
>
> or
>
> 2. You can successfully enter a username, which is echoed back but then
>pressing enter the system just presents you with another login prompt
>instead of accepting the username and asking for a password.
>
> I assumed it was '1', but just want to check before going any further.
>

Yes, your assumption was correct, every keypress acts as if I had pressed
enter. Thanks for confirming!

Morgan

Re: Donations

[Maria Morisot]

Ingo, you have been very kind and thoughtful in all of your replies; for this I 
thank you.

I guess I'm used to projects I like actually wanting help from the community. 
The OpenBSD model baffles me.

For a long time I have had a great love for the project. I think I started 
during 2.6 and bought several CD sets and posters. I switched to Linux at some 
point, but I always highly respected the OpenBSD project. I even sent some 
books via snail mail to Canada as a donation.

I started using it again exclusively about a month ago, and have enjoyed it 
immensely.

I can give a little cash, if that's all they want. I'll stop trying to offer my 
unwanted talents and find somewhere else to spend those.

Re: OpenBSD xen and AWS

[Antoine Jacoutot]

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 12:01:06PM +, All wrote:
> OK, thanks to Mike and Antoine!
> I tried with t2 instances (current generation - the only choice present), yet
> still no dice. Perhaps, the issue is with how I created the image.
> I used qemu, created qcow2, installed openbsd, converted qcow2 to raw 
> and then with vmdktool converted raw to vmdk.
> AWS recognized vmdk with out any issue and booted it. But no xnf0 interfaces 
> were detected.

Try this. Somehat ugly but it works for me (tm).
https://github.com/ajacoutot/aws-openbsd

Re: xenodm: Are usernames logged?

[Johannes Thyssen Tishman]

Ampie Niemand  wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 03:27:52PM +0200, Johannes Thyssen Tishman wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I was just logging into my system through xenodm and for some reason
> > I typed my password into the username field... whoops :/ Luckily I
> > was at home and no one was around. However I'd like to know if these
> > login attempts are logged somewhere such that someone who knew what
> > I just did, could look for my "username" somewhere in a log file.
> > 
> 
> Yes,
> 
> The attempt is logged in /var/log/secure:
> 
> Oct 25 21:25:39  xenodm[25333]: LOGIN FAILURE ON :0,  username>

Oh yes, found it...

> Controlled by this entry in /etc/syslog.conf:
> authpriv.debug  /var/log/secure

Good to know, thanks!

> Regards
> -Ampie
> 
> > For example xlock attempts seem to be logged in /var/log/auth with
> > the username. Is there something like this for xenodm? I couldn't
> > find anything in /var/log/{xendom,Xorg.0.log}.
> > 
> > Thanks.
> > 
> > Kind regards,
> > Johannes
> > 

Re: Donations

[Ingo Schwarze]

Hi Maria,

Maria Morisot wrote on Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 03:10:46PM +0600:

> I see there are two types of donation receivers, the project and the
> foundation.  What is the difference between how the money is spent
> between the two.

How the money is *spent* is not not the main difference between
the two.  Well, strictly speaking, since the Foundation needs to
have Bylaws and yada yada yada, there are a few formal restriction
on how Foundation money can be spent, but as for any foundation,
this Foundation is designed in such a way that such minor formal
restrictions do not cause any significant trouble in practice.

So people who want to donate need not worry about the differences
in *spending*.  From a practical point of view, the difference between
the two is entirely about needs of the *donator*.

> The foundation from what it looks like goes to paying the bills
> for the infrastructure, how about donations to the project.
> 
> I've already many times over stated my willingness to donate time;

You cannot really donate time to OpenBSD, in the way you would sell
your working time to an employer, giving the time to the employer
and the employer then telling you what to do.  Managing employees
requires the *employer* to do some work of their own, for example
directing the employees what to do and making sure they don't
suffer harm while working.  The OpenBSD project is not prepared
to do any such employer's work.

What you can do is donate *products* of your work, like you would sell
products while working in a self-employed manner, except that you have
neither customers nor revenue.  The most common and most welcome way of
doing that is by submitting patches.  There is a fine legal distinction
related to that: with OpenBSD, in contrast to some other free software
projects, you do not actually donate your submitted patches to OpenBSD
like you would, for example, have to donate them to the FSF when
contributing code to the GNU project, by transfering your (economic
part of your) Copyright to the FSF.  Instead, you merely publish your
patches under a free license, retaining all your Copyright yourself,
and OpenBSD is then free to include and redistribute your work.
There is also a merely terminological distinction: we do not call
submissions of patches "donations."

> I am also an artist and a poet.  Perhaps I could work on an OpenBSD
> related poetry chapbook.  I remember you used to have songs for
> every release.

Commission of art and poetry for the OpenBSD project works by
invitation only, and i don't know how or on which grounds such
invitations are decided.  The process certainly isn't public.
It never mattered to me because i'm neither an artist nor a poet.  :)

> I want to donate money but I just want to see where it goes
> so I can tailor my choice of which.

The advice is extremely simple:

If you can, donate directly to the OpenBSD project because that means
 1. the donation can be used for any purpose, including all purposes
that can be funded by the foundation and some that can't
 2. it causes less overhead, less paperwork, less bookkeeping effort,
hence fewer distractions of developers from actual development

Use the Foundation only if *you* have a specific reason why your
specific donation can only be made through the Foundation and not
directly.  If you don't know, then it seems to me you have no specific
reason, so donating directly is better.

Yours,
  Ingo

Re: PineView not using the whole screen

[Crystal Kolipe]

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 03:43:20PM +0200, Daniele B. wrote:
> Thanks a lot, appreciated, I solved with 12$ more in my wallet now.

Then you've saved enough cash to buy three of these:

https://pckeyboard.com/page/product/PANIC

Re: PineView not using the whole screen

[Daniele B.]

Thanks a lot, appreciated, I solved with 12$ more in my wallet now.

I'm sure with these chapgpt guys among us they will start to appear
keyboards by one "Pyhton" key .. Do not misunderstand, this is why 
I also "disable ucc" ..

Barely, I'm absolutely a fan of that rare object named business
keyboard. Extinction is approaching but still far, hopefully.


-- Daniele Bonini


Zé Loff  wrote:

> > Crystal Kolipe :
> >   
> > >> Then, if you are asking tips on how to attack my working station
> > >> by injection of keystrocks on a pseudo keyboard device I have no
> > >> clue but is it important indeed?  
> > > 
> > > If you are concerned about that possibility then you can disable
> > > the ucc driver.  
> > 
> > How to do that, please?
> > Is it something easy that doesn't impact my OpenBSD 7.3 stable
> > buddy ?
> > 
> > -- Daniele Bonini
> >   
> 
> man config
> man boot_config
> man bsd.re-config

Re: OpenBSD xen and AWS

[All]

OK, thanks to Mike and Antoine!
I tried with t2 instances (current generation - the only choice present), yet
still no dice. Perhaps, the issue is with how I created the image.
I used qemu, created qcow2, installed openbsd, converted qcow2 to raw 
and then with vmdktool converted raw to vmdk.
AWS recognized vmdk with out any issue and booted it. But no xnf0 interfaces 
were detected.




On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 04:47:18 p.m. GMT+9, Antoine Jacoutot 
 wrote: 





On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 10:40:34PM +, All wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> There was a time when we could run OpenBSD on AWS.
> Antoine Jacoutot did a great work to make that possible.
> These days, xnf0 interface is not being initialized. Xen is being
> identified as Xen 4.11 (12?) but no xnf interfaces are sowing up
> after boot. NetBSD has xennet0 being initiated and FreeBSD (I guess) xnb.
> 
> Did anyone else faced similar problem? 

Actually Mike Belopuhov (mikeb@) did all the work, I just assembled things.
For me me it still works with old generation of ec2 instances (e.g. t2).
New generations are using KVM but we are missing the ENA driver for network 
(and maybe other things).

Cheers!


-- 
Antoine

Re: PineView not using the whole screen

[Zé Loff]

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 01:18:13PM +0200, Daniele B. wrote:
> Crystal Kolipe :
> 
> >> Then, if you are asking tips on how to attack my working station by 
> >> injection of keystrocks on a
> >> pseudo keyboard device I have no clue but is it important indeed?
> > 
> > If you are concerned about that possibility then you can disable the ucc 
> > driver.
> 
> How to do that, please?
> Is it something easy that doesn't impact my OpenBSD 7.3 stable buddy ?
> 
> -- Daniele Bonini
> 

man config
man boot_config
man bsd.re-config

-- 
 

Re: PineView not using the whole screen

[Daniele B.]

Crystal Kolipe :

>> Then, if you are asking tips on how to attack my working station by 
>> injection of keystrocks on a
>> pseudo keyboard device I have no clue but is it important indeed?
> 
> If you are concerned about that possibility then you can disable the ucc 
> driver.

How to do that, please?
Is it something easy that doesn't impact my OpenBSD 7.3 stable buddy ?

-- Daniele Bonini

Re: PineView not using the whole screen

[Crystal Kolipe]

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 12:15:47PM +0200, Daniele B. wrote:
> Well, here for a secure OpenBSD I'm expecting a minimal usage of resources.
> But I see..if inserting my physical keyboard I get two keyboard devices 
> attached to run a sleep
> button properly on a *consumer multimedia product* well..I missed mayb the 
> point and
> everything is questionable.

On your keyboard there is just one extra button.

On other multimedia keyboards there might be a lot of extra buttons which are
implemented separately to the regular keyboard keys.

> Then, if you are asking tips on how to attack my working station by injection 
> of keystrocks on a
> pseudo keyboard device I have no clue but is it important indeed?

If you are concerned about that possibility then you can disable the ucc driver.

But if a malicious USB device was going to inject keystrokes then it could do
that just as easily using the normal keyboard device driver, so are you going
to disable that as well?

It could also inject mouse movements and clicks as a mouse device and copy and
paste characters in to your terminal, so maybe you want to disable the mouse
driver too.

And even if you go out and buy a PS/2 keyboard and mouse so that you can
disable the USB drivers, a malicious USB device could still attach as a
network card so make sure you take steps to avoid that causing any problems.

> ( I also asked you in my previous posts to stress test better this ucc driver 
> and parents because my bad
> experiences with usb keyboards passing by an Aten KVM "Secure" switch, is it 
> anything enlightning? )

Well you didn't provide any debugging info about the problem with the KVM
switch, and nothing to suggest that it was even related to the ucc driver.

Common sense suggests that the injected keystroke are more likely to be some
kind of 'reset' sequence that the switch sends when switching between the
attached devices, or otherwise it's just buggy.  Or both.

Donations

[Maria Morisot]

I see there are two types of donation receivers, the project and the 
foundation. What is the difference between how the money is spent between the 
two.

The foundation from what it looks like goes to paying the bills for the 
infrastructure, how about donations to the project.

I've already many times over stated my willingness to donate time; but it took 
a while to find a niche. I am also an artist and a poet. Perhaps I could work 
on an OpenBSD related poetry chapbook. I remember you used to have songs for 
every release.

I want to donate money but I just want to see where it goes so I can tailor my 
choice of which.
--
Google doesn't need to
know every time I fart.

Re: USB serial local getty terminal re-prompts for login on any input

[Crystal Kolipe]

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 01:35:39PM -0400, Morgan Aldridge wrote:
> On the terminal, keeping the same 9600 8N1 settings, but enabling local
> echo, and shorting the TX/RX pins gets me duplicated input with no odd
> characters or breaks (AFAICT).
> 
> On the OpenBSD side (with getty disabled on the tty, of course), I ran `cu
> dr -l ttyU1 -s 9600` and jumped the TX/RX pins, and confirmed that the
> characters entered were received back without any breaks or odd characters
> (though there's no local echo.) I confirmed that cu(1) is just not echoing
> locally by un-jumping the TX/RX pins and seeing that I did _not_ receive
> the characters entered.

OK, so the hardware is essentially working, that's good.

Could you confirm exactly what you meant when you said:

On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 11:37:10PM -0400, Morgan Aldridge wrote:
> Unfortunately, regardless of what input is provided on the
> terminal, getty(8) just sends a new login prompt.

Do you mean that:

1. Any single keypress triggers a new login prompt, (as if you were pressing
   enter each time).

or

2. You can successfully enter a username, which is echoed back but then
   pressing enter the system just presents you with another login prompt
   instead of accepting the username and asking for a password.

I assumed it was '1', but just want to check before going any further.

Re: PineView not using the whole screen

[Daniele B.]

Well, here for a secure OpenBSD I'm expecting a minimal usage of resources.
But I see..if inserting my physical keyboard I get two keyboard devices 
attached to run a sleep
button properly on a *consumer multimedia product* well..I missed mayb the 
point and
everything is questionable.

Then, if you are asking tips on how to attack my working station by injection 
of keystrocks on a
pseudo keyboard device I have no clue but is it important indeed?

( I also asked you in my previous posts to stress test better this ucc driver 
and parents because my bad
experiences with usb keyboards passing by an Aten KVM "Secure" switch, is it 
anything enlightning? )

A little surprised, sincerelly.

-- Daniele Bonini

Oct 26, 2023 11:33:25 Crystal Kolipe :

> On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 10:07:41AM +0200, Daniele B. wrote:
>> Just to specify I'm hoping you are going to solve this software issue in
>> the next releases (a properly running device driver is maybe better that
>> properly running sleep button at my side)
> 
> What software issue are you talking about?
> 
> Do you actually have any keyboards that don't work correctly with OpenBSD?
> 
> What is the problem with the ucc driver attaching as well?  Does it break
> anything?

Re: apu4 real com0 boot - not working to install 7.4

[Stuart Henderson]

On 2023/10/26 11:08, Stuart Henderson wrote:
> On 2023/10/26 10:37, Anders Andersson wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 10:06 AM Stuart Henderson
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > On 2023-10-26, harold felton  wrote:
> > > > i have a pcengines apu4 which has been running 7.1-stable with all 
> > > > updates
> > > > just fine...  i had been avoiding doing an upgrade - so was thinking to
> > > > reinstall based on 7.4-release this week...  i was unable to do an 
> > > > install
> > > > from the bsd.rd (for 7.4) - and have bisected the issue to somewhere 
> > > > around
> > > > the 9th or 10th of september...
> > >
> > > Can you try updating to 7.3 first? (or at least updating the boot loader
> > > to the version that was included in 7.3).
> > >
> > 
> > I'm not really sue what you mean by a "reinstall", but I did a clean
> > install of 7.4 on my apu4 just a few days ago, and everything just
> > worked out of the box - including the serial console which was
> > correctly autodetected.
> > 
> > At a glance it appears we have the same bios version.
> 
> A fresh install (for example, from PXE or img file on USB) will have
> a recent boot loader. Updating by booting new bsd.rd from a 7.1
> installation (skipping two version updates) uses an old boot loader,
> which may possibly not boot a new kernel.
> 

I'll change that "may possibly not" to "will not .. with serial console";
kn@ removed backwards compatibility for this

https://github.com/openbsd/src/commit/745c2f60e98fd1f418c104960a567e120624d705

Re: apu4 real com0 boot - not working to install 7.4

[Stuart Henderson]

On 2023/10/26 10:37, Anders Andersson wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 10:06 AM Stuart Henderson
>  wrote:
> >
> > On 2023-10-26, harold felton  wrote:
> > > i have a pcengines apu4 which has been running 7.1-stable with all updates
> > > just fine...  i had been avoiding doing an upgrade - so was thinking to
> > > reinstall based on 7.4-release this week...  i was unable to do an install
> > > from the bsd.rd (for 7.4) - and have bisected the issue to somewhere 
> > > around
> > > the 9th or 10th of september...
> >
> > Can you try updating to 7.3 first? (or at least updating the boot loader
> > to the version that was included in 7.3).
> >
> 
> I'm not really sue what you mean by a "reinstall", but I did a clean
> install of 7.4 on my apu4 just a few days ago, and everything just
> worked out of the box - including the serial console which was
> correctly autodetected.
> 
> At a glance it appears we have the same bios version.

A fresh install (for example, from PXE or img file on USB) will have
a recent boot loader. Updating by booting new bsd.rd from a 7.1
installation (skipping two version updates) uses an old boot loader,
which may possibly not boot a new kernel.

Re: PineView not using the whole screen

[Crystal Kolipe]

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 10:07:41AM +0200, Daniele B. wrote:
> Just to specify I'm hoping you are going to solve this software issue in
> the next releases (a properly running device driver is maybe better that
> properly running sleep button at my side)

What software issue are you talking about?

Do you actually have any keyboards that don't work correctly with OpenBSD?

What is the problem with the ucc driver attaching as well?  Does it break
anything?

Re: apu4 real com0 boot - not working to install 7.4

[Anders Andersson]

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 10:06 AM Stuart Henderson
 wrote:
>
> On 2023-10-26, harold felton  wrote:
> > i have a pcengines apu4 which has been running 7.1-stable with all updates
> > just fine...  i had been avoiding doing an upgrade - so was thinking to
> > reinstall based on 7.4-release this week...  i was unable to do an install
> > from the bsd.rd (for 7.4) - and have bisected the issue to somewhere around
> > the 9th or 10th of september...
>
> Can you try updating to 7.3 first? (or at least updating the boot loader
> to the version that was included in 7.3).
>

I'm not really sue what you mean by a "reinstall", but I did a clean
install of 7.4 on my apu4 just a few days ago, and everything just
worked out of the box - including the serial console which was
correctly autodetected.

At a glance it appears we have the same bios version.

Re: Connecting a wireless keyboard via Bluetooth

[David Coppa]

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 3:49 PM Zé Loff  wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 03:24:27PM +0200, Karel Lucas wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I have a computer with openBSD V7.4 without X11, to which I want to connect
> > a wireless keyboard via Bluetooth. The keyboard is connected via a separate
> > USB Bluetooth receiver. What software do I need for this, and how do I
> > configure it? I hope someone responds to this.
>
> I've read tales of some legendary (literally, not in the "awesome" sense
> of the word) bluetooth adapters that could be switched in to "HID proxy
> mode", and present themselves as uhid(4) devices, which would then be
> picked up by the OS as HIDs.  Supposedly those devices would remember
> the pairings with keyboards/mice, and that would stick across boots.
> Apparently, they're very hard to find, and even harder to get to work
> properly.

I have one of these:

https://www.ebay.nl/itm/155745705345

And it's working with my Anne Pro 2 keyboard on OpenBSD (and Linux).

Cheers,
David

Re: PineView not using the whole screen

[Daniele B.]

Just to specify I'm hoping you are going to solve this software issue in
the next releases (a properly running device driver is maybe better that
properly running sleep button at my side) or I see a group of *users*
moving to procure for themselves the right, standard, one device new
keyboard..

I'm just here with a bunch of keyboards in my shopping carts, indeed.



"Daniele B."  wrote:

> Crystal Kolipe  wrote:
> 
> > https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech=162922414816784  
> 
> 
> Thanks for this one, Crystal: I just solved changing keyboard.
> Indeed I had two usb keyboards with me and I passed from a 
> 
> Dell KB113T 
> 
> to a
> 
> Dell KB212B 
> 
> this latter is running correctly using only one keyboard device.
>
> The difference between the two keyboards is just the sleep button
> of the first one. 

Re: apu4 real com0 boot - not working to install 7.4

[Stuart Henderson]

On 2023-10-26, harold felton  wrote:
> i have a pcengines apu4 which has been running 7.1-stable with all updates
> just fine...  i had been avoiding doing an upgrade - so was thinking to
> reinstall based on 7.4-release this week...  i was unable to do an install
> from the bsd.rd (for 7.4) - and have bisected the issue to somewhere around
> the 9th or 10th of september...

Can you try updating to 7.3 first? (or at least updating the boot loader
to the version that was included in 7.3).

Re: Connecting a wireless keyboard via Bluetooth

[Stuart Henderson]

On 2023-10-25, Marcus MERIGHI  wrote:
> I suppose you need something equivalent to the above solution for audio,
> but for keyboards. 
>
> Keyboard <-> Bluetooth <-> Dongle <-> USB-HID <-> OpenBSD

In theory they might exist, but I was never able to track one down, the
best I came up with was pihidproxy (which is quite bulky, needing to
plug in a pi zero). In theory it might be possible with a
microcontroller with USB and bluetooth support but I'm not aware of any
already-existing firmware.

> BTW, keyboards with a proprietary (non-bluetooth) dongle for the radio
> interface have always worked for me with OpenBSD.

Yes - most wireless keyboards that don't soecifically say "bluetooth"
have a good chsnce of working via their own USB dongle.


-- 
Please keep replies on the mailing list.

Re: How to break and smash things

[Maria Morisot]

Thanks, I read through but didn't follow on a computer but I'm making a Post-It now to read more about afl. It seems I'll need to learn a bit about gdb, which I know very little about. I think I read a chapter about it maybe five or ten years ago. I appreciate the link, this seems like a good landing place for me.If you want you can private mail me your Paypal and I'll buy you a beer or a coffee.--Google doesn't need toknow every time I fart.On Oct 26, 2023, at 12:22, Janne Johansson  wrote:Den tors 26 okt. 2023 kl 07:51 skrev Maria Morisot :But I really want to help the project. I like the idea of trying to break things and get them to malfunction in order to expose bugs that have been overlooked.
I have a pretty good understanding of randomness and know about the concept of fuzzing. I've done testing in my software courses and know a little about writing code for explicit bad cases. But my schooling was very lax and was easy to get A's so I didn't put much effort in.
https://undeadly.org/cgi?action="">-- May the most significant bit of your life be positive.

Re: OpenBSD xen and AWS

[Antoine Jacoutot]

On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 10:40:34PM +, All wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> There was a time when we could run OpenBSD on AWS.
> Antoine Jacoutot did a great work to make that possible.
> These days, xnf0 interface is not being initialized. Xen is being
> identified as Xen 4.11 (12?) but no xnf interfaces are sowing up
> after boot. NetBSD has xennet0 being initiated and FreeBSD (I guess) xnb.
> 
> Did anyone else faced similar problem? 

Actually Mike Belopuhov (mikeb@) did all the work, I just assembled things.
For me me it still works with old generation of ec2 instances (e.g. t2).
New generations are using KVM but we are missing the ENA driver for network 
(and maybe other things).

Cheers!

-- 
Antoine

apu4 real com0 boot - not working to install 7.4

[harold felton]

apologies for crossposting - feel free to direct me to the correct place
and/or ignore other versions...  i started a reddit-thread HERE

which
didnt specify which list specifically - but provided a very-useful
help/ftp-site to bisect when the problem occurred...

i have a pcengines apu4 which has been running 7.1-stable with all updates
just fine...  i had been avoiding doing an upgrade - so was thinking to
reinstall based on 7.4-release this week...  i was unable to do an install
from the bsd.rd (for 7.4) - and have bisected the issue to somewhere around
the 9th or 10th of september...

i will enclose the bug-report-info i just now collected from the
running-machine...  the symptom is: the bsd.rd seems to time-out/fail at
the very-beginning from com0 and then forces a reboot to the system...

onscreen - the com0 output for two) successful bsd.rd looks as follows:

  [00:15:43 - Thu Oct 26] {-ksh:729}
--hfeltonad...@apu4.hfelton.net:~/snaps/s20230908/usr[729]
$ doas reboot
doas (hfeltonad...@apu4.hfelton.net) password:
stopping package daemons: fossild.
syncing disks... done
rebooting...
▒PC Engines apu4
coreboot build 20230131
BIOS version v4.19.0.1
4080 MB ECC DRAM
SeaBIOS (version rel-1.16.0.1-0-g77603a32)

Press F10 key now for boot menu

Booting from Hard Disk...
Using drive 0, partition 3.
Loading..
probing: pc0 com0 com1 com2 com3 mem[639K 3325M 752M a20=on]
disk: hd0+
>> OpenBSD/amd64 BOOT 3.53
switching console to com>> OpenBSD/amd64 BOOT 3.53
boot> 0
b bsd.rd
booting hd0a:bsd.rd: 3891908+1614848+3895112+0+708608
[109+435984+290736]=0xa57ab0
entry point at 0x81001000
Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
Copyright (c) 1995-2022 OpenBSD. All rights reserved.
https://www.OpenBSD.org

OpenBSD 7.1 (RAMDISK_CD) #440: Mon Apr 11 18:09:13 MDT 2022
dera...@amd64.openbsd.org:/usr/src/sys/arch/amd64/compile/RAMDISK_CD
real mem = 4259930112 (4062MB)
avail mem = 4126810112 (3935MB)
random: good seed from bootblocks
mainbus0 at root
bios0 at mainbus0: SMBIOS rev. 3.0 @ 0xcfe97040 (13 entries)
bios0: vendor coreboot version "v4.19.0.1" date 01/31/2023
bios0: PC Engines apu4
acpi0 at bios0: ACPI 6.0
acpi0: tables DSDT FACP SSDT MCFG TPM2 APIC HEST SSDT SSDT DRTM HPET
acpimadt0 at acpi0 addr 0xfee0: PC-AT compat
cpu0 at mainbus0: apid 0 (boot processor)
cpu0: AMD GX-412TC SOC, 998.27 MHz, 16-30-01
cpu0:
FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CFLUSH,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2,HTT,SSE3,PCLMUL,MWAIT,SSSE3,T
cpu0: 32KB 64b/line 2-way I-cache, 32KB 64b/line 8-way D-cache, 2MB
64b/line 16-way L2 cache
cpu0: ITLB 32 4KB entries fully associative, 8 4MB entries fully associative
cpu0: DTLB 40 4KB entries fully associative, 8 4MB entries fully associative
cpu0: apic clock running at 99MHz
cpu0: mwait min=64, max=64, IBE
cpu at mainbus0: not configured
cpu at mainbus0: not configured
cpu at mainbus0: not configured
ioapic0 at mainbus0: apid 4 pa 0xfec0, version 21, 24 pins
ioapic1 at mainbus0: apid 5 pa 0xfec2, version 21, 32 pins
acpihpet0 at acpi0: 14318180 Hz
acpiprt0 at acpi0: bus 0 (PCI0)
acpiprt1 at acpi0: bus 1 (PBR4)
acpiprt2 at acpi0: bus 2 (PBR5)
acpiprt3 at acpi0: bus 3 (PBR6)
acpiprt4 at acpi0: bus 4 (PBR7)
acpiprt5 at acpi0: bus -1 (PBR8)
"ACPI0007" at acpi0 not configured
"ACPI0007" at acpi0 not configured
"ACPI0007" at acpi0 not configured
"ACPI0007" at acpi0 not configured
"ACPI0007" at acpi0 not configured
"ACPI0007" at acpi0 not configured
"ACPI0007" at acpi0 not configured
"ACPI0007" at acpi0 not configured
acpipci0 at acpi0 PCI0: 0x 0x0011 0x0001
acpicmos0 at acpi0
com0 at acpi0 COM1 addr 0x3f8/0x8 irq 4: ns16550a, 16 byte fifo
com0: console
com1 at acpi0 COM2 addr 0x2f8/0x8 irq 3: ns16550a, 16 byte fifo
amdgpio0 at acpi0 GPIO uid 0 addr 0xfed81500/0x300 irq 7, 184 pins
"PRP0001" at acpi0 not configured
"PRP0001" at acpi0 not configured
"PRP0001" at acpi0 not configured
"PRP0001" at acpi0 not configured
"PRP0001" at acpi0 not configured
"PRP0001" at acpi0 not configured
"BOOT" at acpi0 not configured
acpitz at acpi0 not configured
pci0 at mainbus0 bus 0
pchb0 at pci0 dev 0 function 0 "AMD 16h Root Complex" rev 0x00
vendor "AMD", unknown product 0x1567 (class system subclass IOMMU, rev
0x00) at pci0 dev 0 function 2 not configured
pchb1 at pci0 dev 2 function 0 "AMD 16h Host" rev 0x00
ppb0 at pci0 dev 2 function 1 "AMD 16h PCIE" rev 0x00: msi
pci1 at ppb0 bus 1
em0 at pci1 dev 0 function 0 "Intel I211" rev 0x03: msi, address
00:0d:b9:55:bb:64
ppb1 at pci0 dev 2 function 2 "AMD 16h PCIE" rev 0x00: msi
pci2 at ppb1 bus 2
em1 at pci2 dev 0 function 0 "Intel I211" rev 0x03: msi, address
00:0d:b9:55:bb:65
ppb2 at pci0 dev 2 function 3 "AMD 16h PCIE" rev 0x00: msi
pci3 at ppb2 bus 3
em2 at pci3 dev 0 function 0 "Intel I211" rev 

Re: How to break and smash things

[Maria Morisot]

I can't use Amazon services and products. I got in trouble a while back for using my credit card from a Kyrgyzstan IP, and didn't have the motivation to go through customer service and explain that I was an American citizen living here. But I have access to O'Reilly. I used to make my own audiobooks of C code taken from Robert Sedgewick's Algorithms in C; try that, it's fun having to read semicolons and curly braces out loud.I have family. I lost four kids, have one who survived. Been divorced. Have problems with my sister's family who hate me for my Catholic beliefs and even had me thrown into a mental ward for teaching my son that angels and demons are not friends.I've been a professional painter with exhibitions in Europe and America and seen a taste of fame and splendors.I may be young at heart but I carry a lot of experience and wisdom.Anyways, I have my life in order, and I'm quite happy and content with the majority of my personal activities. I have perhaps 6 hours unaccounted for most days that I would like to devote to OpenBSD. Is that a bad dream and aspiration to have?I love the project immensely ever since I read about Theo speaking out against the war in Iraq publicly. That took guts in a time when America was warmongering with their mantra of WMD. I have a huge respect now for Theo and his project, which I had already liked to begin with in the days of Sushi and Ramblo.You work on DNS.I write poetry.Your motives I don't know. I don't know what drives you to take care of your project. I hope it is love. Love for not only the code and the system, but deep love for your users and the community of people you work with.I love the OpenBSD community, and spend an hour praying for you each afternoon; even though I don't really know any of you.When you put love into a project, it becomes something more than just bytes and arrays. It is like planting seeds in a field to grow a lush forest of trees, where life can flourish.I lost four children.I just bought my remaining one a 7.3 OpenBSD shirt to wear; which he is very happy with.Have you ever lost a child? It makes you really contemplate purpose and meaning in life.DNS is great. Networked systems are great. But AI can one day handle all of that perhaps. What AI cannot do is pray for The de Raadt.--Google doesn't need toknow every time I fart.On Oct 26, 2023, at 12:22, Janne Johansson  wrote:Den tors 26 okt. 2023 kl 07:51 skrev Maria Morisot :But I really want to help the project. I like the idea of trying to break things and get them to malfunction in order to expose bugs that have been overlooked.
I have a pretty good understanding of randomness and know about the concept of fuzzing. I've done testing in my software courses and know a little about writing code for explicit bad cases. But my schooling was very lax and was easy to get A's so I didn't put much effort in.
https://undeadly.org/cgi?action="">-- May the most significant bit of your life be positive.

Re: How to break and smash things

[Maja Reberc]

Hey Maria,

this is a long shot, and most people will put it in the scam basket,
but I've heard of developers significantly improving their skills by
applying PhotoReading to code. One might even instruct the
other-than-conscious mind to help them look for bugs (or typos in
general text).

Do note that, when involving the subconscious, you *always* need a clear
purpose of what you want to achieve. It won't work otherwise. Forget
going into the book just because "you want to read it."

Also, if you want to be effective at reading, both this technique and
work by Tony Buzan strongly discourage simply reading books from cover
to cover. If your goal is to read more books more effectively (that's
how to get most out of it, I reckon), you might wanna familiarise
yourself with their opinions and test them out.

If such things interest you, feel free to give it a shot. Photoreading
does take time to master, though, especially without someone to guide
you. You alone decide how your time is best invested.

In any case, you'd learn a lot by reading other peoples' code, be it
regular- or photoreading.

Regards,
-- Maja

On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:48:43 +0600
Maria Morisot  wrote:

> Hi,
> I've been frustrated in trying to find a way to help the project and
> thanks to several people's replies I've been considering what I like
> to do with the operating system.
> 
> My needs are simple, as far as personal usage goes; give me an
> offline system with vi and hard drive access and I'll happily write
> poetry to my heart's content in my favorite café.
> 
> But I really want to help the project. I like the idea of trying to
> break things and get them to malfunction in order to expose bugs that
> have been overlooked.
> 
> I like to smash things.
> 
> Does anyone know of any good resources for this, or recommended
> software in ports that I should study and learn? I have an O'Reilly
> subscription, so and book recommendations from on there I should have
> access to. Blogs are great too.
> 
> I have a pretty good understanding of randomness and know about the
> concept of fuzzing. I've done testing in my software courses and know
> a little about writing code for explicit bad cases. But my schooling
> was very lax and was easy to get A's so I didn't put much effort in.
> 
> Thanks again to everyone who has tried to help me find my path here
> in the community, I know that I am a tough pill to swallow, that is
> why I generally play alone. -- Google doesn't need to
> know every time I fart.

Re: How to break and smash things

[Janne Johansson]

Den tors 26 okt. 2023 kl 07:51 skrev Maria Morisot :

> But I really want to help the project. I like the idea of trying to break
> things and get them to malfunction in order to expose bugs that have been
> overlooked.
>
> I have a pretty good understanding of randomness and know about the
> concept of fuzzing. I've done testing in my software courses and know a
> little about writing code for explicit bad cases. But my schooling was very
> lax and was easy to get A's so I didn't put much effort in.
>

https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article;sid=20150121093259

-- 
May the most significant bit of your life be positive.

Re: How to break and smash things

[Peter J. Philipp]

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 11:48:43AM +0600, Maria Morisot wrote:
> Hi,
> I've been frustrated in trying to find a way to help the project and thanks 
> to several people's replies I've been considering what I like to do with the 
> operating system.
> 
> My needs are simple, as far as personal usage goes; give me an offline system 
> with vi and hard drive access and I'll happily write poetry to my heart's 
> content in my favorite caf??.
> 
> But I really want to help the project. I like the idea of trying to break 
> things and get them to malfunction in order to expose bugs that have been 
> overlooked.
> 
> I like to smash things.
> 
> Does anyone know of any good resources for this, or recommended software in 
> ports that I should study and learn? I have an O'Reilly subscription, so and 
> book recommendations from on there I should have access to. Blogs are great 
> too.
> 
> I have a pretty good understanding of randomness and know about the concept 
> of fuzzing. I've done testing in my software courses and know a little about 
> writing code for explicit bad cases. But my schooling was very lax and was 
> easy to get A's so I didn't put much effort in.
> 
> Thanks again to everyone who has tried to help me find my path here in the 
> community, I know that I am a tough pill to swallow, that is why I generally 
> play alone.
> --
> Google doesn't need to
> know every time I fart.
> 

Just take it easy.  You don't enlighten us with your age, but I suspect you're
in the early twenties.  There is people here that are one to several generations
above you.  We were all young once and probably just as wild once.  If you
stick around for 20 years or so (which to me is a human generation), you'll be
like some of us.

What I found joy with when I was employed was tasting amazon books.  There
was some disappointment, but also some surprises.  If you don't like amazon
I understand, I use them because I live in a tiny city where computer books
are hard to find.  One disappointment was that after a certain experience
level certain books that are an advanced level are hard to find.  Most
will re-iterate the basics of someone who has perhaps up to 5 years 
experience.

Even though I never made monetary riches, I feel my history using open source
was great.  I started in 1995 and it wasn't until 2005 that I started on the
project that I'm still working on today which is nearly 20 years old.  Back
then I didn't realise a DNS server would keep me that busy.  But in 2007 I
realised that it was my best project and I should stick with it.  Meanwhile
I have a five year plan which involves some closed source to hopefully get
me some money.

So envision yourself in 20 years from now.  Luckily as humans we are great
dreamers and envisionaries so we are capable to put ourselves into such
positions.  What projects do you want to have under your belt?  Do you want
one project or several?  Do you want family, kids, spouse, house, boat, and
cottage?  Do you want a pet AI?  Or perhaps a robot?  If anything misses in
the mix it's time.  There is all these possibilities but not enough time to
do them all, so you must prioritize and drop some wants.

Best Regards,
-peter

-- 
Over thirty years experience on Unix-like Operating Systems starting with QNX.