Re: PayPal pool for developer M1 Mac mini for OpenBSD port
Oh, wow — it hasn’t even been a full day since I sent this out...and already enough of you have chipped in enough to buy not just a single M1 system for Patrick, but also a second one for his partner in crime, Mark Kettenis. Thank you to all! This show of generosity and support and excitement is most welcome. (And, frankly, a bit overwhelming.) If anybody reading this still wishes to donate to the cause, despite the immediate needs being met, the money will be put to good use. There are other developers who will eventually need their own hardware, and there are always other sorts of expenses related to development. Feel free to chip in at Patrick’s original link: https://www.paypal.com/pools/c/8uPSkfNJMp ...or, of course, to the OpenBSD general fund (which can *ALWAYS* use donations): https://www.openbsd.org/donations.html Thanks again, everybody! b& > On Dec 2, 2020, at 2:59 PM, Ben Goren wrote: > Greetings, all! > > Patrick Wildt has set up a PayPal pool to raise funds to purchase an M1 Mac > mini so he can start porting OpenBSD to the platform. If you’d like to be > able to run OpenBSD on an M1 system, now would be a great time to throw some > pennies his way. > > The donation link: https://paypal.me/pools/c/8uPSkfNJMp > > Read below for an idea of what one might expect if we can get a machine into > Patrick’s hands. > > Cheers, > > b& > > Patrick wrote: > >> Yes, kettenis@ and me are the two ones doing the major work on porting >> to new devices. Not sure if kettenis@ is interested, but I can ask him. >> I definitely am, a Mac Mini as a dedicated machine to do stuff with and >> not care about what is installed would really help. >> >> Marcan has started a crowdfunding on Patreon. He's a really capable >> person, and he'll definitely lay a lot of groundwork needed for porting >> OpenBSD to the platform. He apparenetly will also do his work in a >> dual-licensed fashion, so the BSDs will easily profit from it. >> >> So, the first steps are basically to follow Marcan's work and use all >> that information and code to port OpenBSD as well. >> >> This *will* take some time, because essentially there are only the >> binary drivers, but it's doable and I think with a bit of patience >> we will have OpenBSD running on the M1 as well. >> >> Biggest hurdle, as always, will be support for graphics acceleration.
PayPal pool for developer M1 Mac mini for OpenBSD port
Greetings, all! Patrick Wildt has set up a PayPal pool to raise funds to purchase an M1 Mac mini so he can start porting OpenBSD to the platform. If you’d like to be able to run OpenBSD on an M1 system, now would be a great time to throw some pennies his way. The donation link: https://paypal.me/pools/c/8uPSkfNJMp Read below for an idea of what one might expect if we can get a machine into Patrick’s hands. Cheers, b& Patrick wrote: > Yes, kettenis@ and me are the two ones doing the major work on porting > to new devices. Not sure if kettenis@ is interested, but I can ask him. > I definitely am, a Mac Mini as a dedicated machine to do stuff with and > not care about what is installed would really help. > > Marcan has started a crowdfunding on Patreon. He's a really capable > person, and he'll definitely lay a lot of groundwork needed for porting > OpenBSD to the platform. He apparenetly will also do his work in a > dual-licensed fashion, so the BSDs will easily profit from it. > > So, the first steps are basically to follow Marcan's work and use all > that information and code to port OpenBSD as well. > > This *will* take some time, because essentially there are only the > binary drivers, but it's doable and I think with a bit of patience > we will have OpenBSD running on the M1 as well. > > Biggest hurdle, as always, will be support for graphics acceleration.
Re: Wireless help, please
Anybody else have any suggestions? Nick? Cheers, b On 2009 May 30, at 5:21 PM, Ben Goren wrote: On 2009 May 30, at 7:03 AM, Jason Dixon wrote: On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 06:48:59AM -0700, Ben Goren wrote: I'm trying to set up my first wireless network, with less than stellar success. You need to narrow your spectrum of diagnosis. Start ruling out those things which are known to work. Rule out those things which are known to work and you'll be left with the thing(s) that don't. Examples: - OpenBSD wireless connectivity (as a client) - OpenBSD wired connectivity - Mac wired connectivity - Mac wireless connectivity (to a different WAP) - etc... I've done as much of that as I can -- or, at least, as much as I can think of. The two computers have no trouble talking to each other over wired ethernet. Indeed, for several seconds, they communicate just fine over wireless -- my problem is that it only lasts for several seconds, after which the entire wireless connection is dropped and the iMac is no longer associated with any network. I don't have any other hardware to test with. I've thought of and tried a couple other things since this morning. There's one of those infamous ``linksys'' networks somewhere in the vicinity, but apparently not nearby. I was able to connect to it from the iMac a while ago and do a bit of (very slow) surfing, and even open an ssh session back to the laptop. I can't seem to re-connect to it now, and I haven't been able to connect to it from the laptop. There are a couple other networks in the area that aren't using any form of wireless security, but they have official-sounding names like ``ASUEMPLOYEE.'' I can connect to them from either computer -- and the connection doesn't go away -- but no DHCP servers will talk to me. I've also tried setting up the laptop in both ibss and ibss-master mode. With ibss-master, ifconfig always reports ``no network.'' However, if I set the iMac up as an ibss-master, I can connect to it from the OpenBSD laptop, get a DHCP lease from it, and ping the iMac. So, it seems that everything works except for sustaining a link from the iMac to the OpenBSD laptop as a hostap for more than several seconds. Surely I must be missing something obvious? Cheers, b [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pkcs7- signature which had a name of smime.p7s] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pkcs7-signature which had a name of smime.p7s]
Re: Wireless help, please
On 2009 Jun 2, at 10:00 AM, Stuart Henderson wrote: On 2009-06-02, K K kka...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:32 AM, Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com wrote: Anybody else have any suggestions? Nick? I have similar problems with a 'rum' USB stick in AP mode using WPA. See the man page for specific know issues with using this chipset in Host AP mode. Can anybody suggest a readily available USB2 Wireless-G adapter which works well as an AP? USB wireless adapters do not work well as APs. The only ones where we support this at all are ural and rum, and though they can be useful in a sticky situation where it's all you have available, they don't make good access points. With that in mind...are any of these ``wireless bridge'' devices worth considering? I have a spare PC Ethernet card for this laptop. This is one of Amazon's top hits for the sort of thing I'm thinking of. If anybody has any suggestions on the matter, I'd appreciate it http://www.amazon.com/Linksys-WET610N-Wireless-N-Ethernet-Dual-Band/dp/B001QVQ7JU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8s=electronicsqid=1243962805sr=1-2 or: http://tinyurl.com/oe3nsg Cheers, b [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pkcs7-signature which had a name of smime.p7s]
Re: Wireless help, please
On 2009 May 31, at 2:53 PM, Fred Crowson wrote: How is your iMac getting its IP address? When I manually set up the IP address (etc.) for the iMac, I get several seconds of connectivity before the link goes dead. That doesn't seem to be enough time to get a DHCP lease, though I do have dhcpd running on the OpenBSD laptop. The same laptop provides dhcp services to the iMac on the wired network just fine. Cheers, b [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pkcs7-signature which had a name of smime.p7s]
Wireless help, please
I'm trying to set up my first wireless network, with less than stellar success. dmesg here: http://trumpetpower.com/pub/dmesg.boot $ ifconfig rum0 rum0: flags=8943UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,PROMISC,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST mtu 1500 lladdr 00:0e:3b:0e:88:81 priority: 0 groups: wlan media: IEEE802.11 autoselect hostap status: active ieee80211: nwid trumpetpower chan 1 bssid 00:0e:3b:0e:88:81 100dBm inet 65.39.81.125 netmask 0xfff0 broadcast 65.39.81.127 inet6 fe80::20e:3bff:fe0e:8881%rum0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x5 It's an old Dell Precision laptop with a Hawking HWUG1 running 4.5- STABLE I'm trying to connect to it from a not-too-old iMac. The two computers are less than six feet apart. I can actually connect and (e.g.) ftp to get a file over the network...but only for a few seconds before the link goes dead. Once it lasted for almost half a minute. And that's only if I use a static IP on the iMac; dhcp is never able to get a lease. I've tried everything I can think of -- different channels, 802.11b and 802.11g, different USB ports (including the built-in USB 1.1 port on the back of the laptop), WPA on and off, moving the antenna and computer around, with and without an IP assigned to the interface (using a bridge), DHCP running and not, and probably more. All scenarios give the same symptoms: I can make the connection, but it goes away after a few seconds. I've tried looking in /var/log for clues, but I couldn't find anything. No console messages show up. This is what shows up in the console for the iMac when I attempt to connect: 2009-05-30 6:41:09 AM kernel en1: Supported channels 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 36 40 44 48 52 56 60 64 149 153 157 161 165 40 48 56 64 153 161 36 44 52 60 149 157 2009-05-30 6:41:28 AM kernel Auth result for: 00:0e:3b:0e:88:81 MAC AUTH succeeded 2009-05-30 6:41:28 AM kernel AirPort: Link Up on en1 2009-05-30 6:41:28 AM kernel AirPort: Link Up on en1 2009-05-30 6:41:30 AM mDNSResponder[16] Note: Frequent transitions for interface en1 (65.39.81.120); network traffic reduction measures in effect 2009-05-30 6:41:30 AM mDNSResponder[16] Note: Frequent transitions for interface en1 (65.39.81.120); network traffic reduction measures in effect 2009-05-30 6:41:31 AM System Preferences[16088] Error: Apple80211Scan() error 16 2009-05-30 6:41:31 AM System Preferences[16088] Error: __performScan() EBUSY, try again in a sec 2009-05-30 6:41:32 AM System Preferences[16088] Error: Apple80211Scan() error 16 2009-05-30 6:41:32 AM System Preferences[16088] Error: __performScan() EBUSY, try again in a sec 2009-05-30 6:41:32 AM System Preferences[16088] Error: __performScan() EBUSY, try again in a sec 2009-05-30 6:41:33 AM System Preferences[16088] Error: Apple80211Scan() error 16 2009-05-30 6:41:33 AM System Preferences[16088] Error: __performScan() EBUSY, try again in a sec 2009-05-30 6:41:33 AM System Preferences[16088] Error: __performScan() EBUSY, try again in a sec 2009-05-30 6:41:34 AM System Preferences[16088] Error: Apple80211Scan() error 16 2009-05-30 6:41:34 AM System Preferences[16088] Error: __performScan() EBUSY, try again in a sec 2009-05-30 6:41:34 AM airportd[50552] Error: Apple80211Associate() failed -6 2009-05-30 6:41:34 AM kernel AirPort: Link Down on en1 2009-05-30 6:41:34 AM SystemUIServer[183] Error: airportd MIG failed = -6 ((null)) (port = 51351) 2009-05-30 6:41:34 AM airportd[50552] Error: process_command_dict() failed 2009-05-30 6:41:35 AM System Preferences[16088] Error: Apple80211Scan() error 16 2009-05-30 6:41:35 AM System Preferences[16088] Error: __performScan() EBUSY, try again in a sec 2009-05-30 6:41:35 AM System Preferences[16088] Error: __performScan() EBUSY, try again in a sec 2009-05-30 6:41:36 AM kernel Auth result for: 00:0e:3b:0e:88:81 MAC AUTH succeeded 2009-05-30 6:41:36 AM kernel AirPort: Link Up on en1 2009-05-30 6:41:36 AM System Preferences[16088] Error: Apple80211Scan() error 16 2009-05-30 6:41:36 AM System Preferences[16088] Error: Apple80211Scan() error 16 2009-05-30 6:41:36 AM System Preferences[16088] Error: __performScan() EBUSY, try again in a sec 2009-05-30 6:41:37 AM System Preferences[16088] Error: Apple80211Scan() error 16 2009-05-30 6:41:37 AM System Preferences[16088] Error: Apple80211Scan() error 16 2009-05-30 6:41:37 AM System Preferences[16088] Error: __performScan() failed (16) 2009-05-30 6:41:42 AM airportd[50552] Error: Apple80211Associate() failed -6 2009-05-30 6:41:42 AM kernel AirPort: Link Down on en1 2009-05-30 6:41:42 AM SystemUIServer[183] Error: airportd MIG failed = -6 ((null)) (port = 51351) 2009-05-30 6:41:42 AM airportd[50552] Error: process_command_dict() failed 2009-05-30 6:41:42 AM airportd[50552] Error: process_command_dict() failed 2009-05-30 6:41:47 AM mDNSResponder[16] Note: Frequent transitions for interface
Re: Wireless help, please
On 2009 May 30, at 7:03 AM, Jason Dixon wrote: On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 06:48:59AM -0700, Ben Goren wrote: I'm trying to set up my first wireless network, with less than stellar success. You need to narrow your spectrum of diagnosis. Start ruling out those things which are known to work. Rule out those things which are known to work and you'll be left with the thing(s) that don't. Examples: - OpenBSD wireless connectivity (as a client) - OpenBSD wired connectivity - Mac wired connectivity - Mac wireless connectivity (to a different WAP) - etc... I've done as much of that as I can -- or, at least, as much as I can think of. The two computers have no trouble talking to each other over wired ethernet. Indeed, for several seconds, they communicate just fine over wireless -- my problem is that it only lasts for several seconds, after which the entire wireless connection is dropped and the iMac is no longer associated with any network. I don't have any other hardware to test with. I've thought of and tried a couple other things since this morning. There's one of those infamous ``linksys'' networks somewhere in the vicinity, but apparently not nearby. I was able to connect to it from the iMac a while ago and do a bit of (very slow) surfing, and even open an ssh session back to the laptop. I can't seem to re-connect to it now, and I haven't been able to connect to it from the laptop. There are a couple other networks in the area that aren't using any form of wireless security, but they have official-sounding names like ``ASUEMPLOYEE.'' I can connect to them from either computer -- and the connection doesn't go away -- but no DHCP servers will talk to me. I've also tried setting up the laptop in both ibss and ibss-master mode. With ibss-master, ifconfig always reports ``no network.'' However, if I set the iMac up as an ibss-master, I can connect to it from the OpenBSD laptop, get a DHCP lease from it, and ping the iMac. So, it seems that everything works except for sustaining a link from the iMac to the OpenBSD laptop as a hostap for more than several seconds. Surely I must be missing something obvious? Cheers, b [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pkcs7-signature which had a name of smime.p7s]
Re: SMTPD TLS Authentication?
On 2009 May 30, at 5:05 PM, Gilles Chehade wrote: On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 08:01:49PM -0400, Aaron W. Hsu wrote: Hello SMTPD Gurus, I have noticed some TLS based authentication stuff in the smtpd.conf(5) man page. I don't see more details about how it works, though. How far along is the TLS based stuff? I'd like to test smtpd with my email server on my local machine, which operates as a client to my sendmail based server remotely via TLS Authentication. Is this in their yet, or does the TLS work differently right now? Thanks! And, sorry for bugging you if this should be obvious. It should just work :-) If it doesn't let me know, I'm in an ssl mood right now Since you're offering TLS I got to work just by reading starttls(8) and making sure the keys were in the right place. That doesn't get you SMTP AUTH, though. It's been at least a few weeks since I tried, so I'm afraid I don't remember the details, but I tried installing the Cyrus SASL package without success. That may or may not have been due to my idiocy -- but I figured I'd ask: What's the preferred method of configuring Sendmail to require a password for relaying mail from popular MUAs like Apple Mail? A nudge in the proper direction -- man pages, packages, etc. -- to get me started in the right direction would be most welcome. Cheers, b [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pkcs7-signature which had a name of smime.p7s]
umask for make build (was Re: make build fails on -STABLE)
I can confirm: make build fails if the umask is set to 077, succeeds if set to 022. Cheers, b [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pkcs7-signature which had a name of smime.p7s]
make build fails on -STABLE
I just installed 4.5 yesterday from install45.iso on an old Dell Precision laptop. dmesg here: http://trumpetpower.com/pub/dmesg.boot I unpacked source from the tarballs and did ``cvs -q up -rOPENBSD_4_5 - PAd'' A new kernel built, installed, and booted just fine. However, every time I try to do a make build, it bombs out in the exact same spot. I've re-run cvs without it finding any new / modified / deleted / etc. files. Typescript here: http://trumpetpower.com/pub/build_fail.txt Suggestions would be most appreciated. Cheers, b [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pkcs7-signature which had a name of smime.p7s]
Re: make build fails on -STABLE
On 2009 May 18, at 4:27 PM, Philip Guenther wrote: On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 3:43 PM, Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com wrote: ... A new kernel built, installed, and booted just fine. However, every time I try to do a make build, it bombs out in the exact same spot. I've re-run cvs without it finding any new / modified / deleted / etc. files. What are the permissions on the /usr/include/kerberosV/ directory at the end of the build? Early on, you can see that it resets them from 700 to 755, but later error messages make it look like something in the build chmoded the directory back to 700. Hmm, perhaps the permissions get copied from the source tree along the way. What are the permissions on your source tree? Are any of the include directories there mode 700? If so, try changing them to 755 and give the build another shot. Actually I think I might have it figured out. If so, your idea was certainly very close. I have my umask set to 077 in my .profile. On a lark, before your note arrived, I set it to 022 and kicked off another make build. It seems to have made it past the point where it was bombing out. I'll send another note to the list to confirm (or deny) that that was the problem. I'll leave it to The Powers That Be (TM) to decide if this is something worth checking for or documenting. Cheers, b [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pkcs7-signature which had a name of smime.p7s]
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 2007 Oct 31, at 8:01 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: surely there must be _some_ merit to creating a list of lower level development tasks (as dictated by those with experience to judge) to encourage people to enter the development cycle. First, you're assuming that there exists amongst the OpenBSD developers a desire ``to encourage people to enter the development cycle.'' I kinda doubt that that's the case. More developers often isn't a good thing; see ``The Mythical Man-Month'' for a popular treament of the problem. But, if you're serious, one good way would be to follow the changes made to the code -- after all, that's the whole point of a public CVS repository. When you find something that you can point to and say, ``I know why so-and-so did that,'' then you can go looking for other things that would benefit from the same treatment. And if you don't understand why the changes are being made, you need to improve your coding skills to the point that you do. Cheers, b [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pkcs7-signature which had a name of smime.p7s]
Re: About Xen: maybe a reiterative question but ..
On 2007 Oct 23, at 5:57 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Virtualization seems to have a lot of security benefits. ``Seems'' is the key word, here. On hardware like an IBM mainframe that can acutally support what's necessary for secure virtual machines, sure. On x86? Well, it'll keep your kid sister out Virtualization is wonderful for simultaneously running different operating systems on the same (beefy) computer, especially for development or testing purposes. If you occassionally need to run something on an operating system other than your preferred one, it's great -- saves you the extra hardware or the reboot, lets you do snapshots, etc. For Windows, it's also wonderful. You basically have to be nuts to have a single Windows server* doing more than one thing, but virtualization lets you do exactly that with relative impunity. It's like splinting a broken leg and giving a huge shot of painkillers to the victim -- you'd never know the leg was broken. But that's about it. I suppose running Windows virtual machines on a real OpenBSD machine might ``have a lot of security benefits'' in some perverted sense of the words, but it's not like the VM is magically going to protect the virtual machines or anything. And if the Windows virtual machines can still talk to the outside world or to each other (via simulated network interfaces, for example), even those ``security benefits'' won't mean much. Cheers, b * Yes, the full stop here is appropriate. [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pkcs7-signature which had a name of smime.p7s]
Re: cp(1) bug ?
On 2007 Oct 18, at 4:40 PM, Edd Barrett wrote: On 18/10/2007, Richard Toohey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: $ mkdir foo $ cp -R foo foo Ill try this on a solaris box and a linix box tomorrow at work :P Mac OS X 10.4 behaves exactly the same way as OpenBSD does. Cheers, b [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pkcs7-signature which had a name of smime.p7s]
anoncvs3.usa.openbsd.org RSA host key changed?
As of the past week or so, my nightly cron job to update /usr/src has been bombing out, complaining that the ``RSA host key for anoncvs3.usa.openbsd.org has changed.'' Has it really, or is someone really doing something nasty? Cheers, b [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pkcs7-signature which had a name of smime.p7s]
Re: some questions about OpenBSDs future plans
On 2005 May 11, at 9:32 AM, Shawn K. Quinn wrote: On Mon, 2005-05-09 at 18:13 +0200, Henning Brauer wrote: exim: dunno license currently, Debian uses exim as the MTA by default, so it's almost certainly free enough to stick in gnu/. Things are being removed from there. Nothing new will ever be added. but awkward 80s design, poor implementation, just plain sucks At the risk of starting a flamewar, people say things equally as bad about sendmail. So? Sendmail also has the benefit of being thoroughly audited by the OpenBSD team. Besides, swapping MTAs would be almost as much work as writing a new one. Why go to all that trouble for bad code with a bad license? In short: no way in hell; not in a million years; dream on. Cheers, b [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of PGP.sig]
Re: some questions about OpenBSDs future plans
On 2005 May 9, at 2:23 PM, Miod Vallat wrote: Even if the plan9 compiler looks nice. Forgive me if I'm out of the loop, but has the license changed since two years ago? http://www.monkey.org/openbsd/archive/misc/0306/msg01274.html (That's just the start of the thread. Read at least the next couple responses; short version, it ain't free.) Assuming that this license: http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/license.html is what applies to the compiler, I'd have to answer my own question with, ``Not really.'' Is there *any* compiler other than TenDRA with a usable license? We've already heard about TenDRA's technical shortcomings in this thread. Is the only other option OpenCC? As much as I'd love to see such a thing...well, I know Theo's nuts enough to write his own compiler, but still Not that I expect to see a GCC-free OpenBSD for a *long* time, of course. Cheers, b [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of PGP.sig]
Re: 3.7CDs arrived today...
On 2005 May 6, at 8:10 AM, Justin Reigle wrote: However, the jewel case is screwed up (2 of three mounts are disintigrated), just like every single time I've ever ordered (since 2.7). I wonder if it's possible to use a higher quality triple jewel case? Oh well... And, just like with every other release, some people complain of smashed jewel cases and want Theo to start sending out better ones. Of course, this misses the fact that this has been a problem with *all* jewel cases since time immemorial. I've got a stack of a dozen music CDs in jewel cases on my desk right now. Some of them are mine; some mine that I've lent out; some that I'm borrowing. At least a third have broken jewel cases. Maybe more. If you look in your music collection, you'll almost certainly discover the same thing. But do you complain to the record companies about their jewel cases? If you *really* care about the state of your jewel case when it arrives, there *is* an official option to ship the CDs wrapped in lots of soft cloth padding. It costs an extra $20, but the bonus is that the cloth comes pre-printed with OpenBSD artwork and is in a shape suitable for covering your torso. Cheers, b P.S. *PLEASE* let's not beat this horse any more! b [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of PGP.sig]
Re: Postfix (IBM) license question
On 2005 May 4, at 8:19 AM, Justin Reigle wrote: Anyone a lawyer or have a lawyer friend who might help decipher this one? No. Or maybe even yes. Point is, it's pointless. This has been hashed and re-hashed. Over and over. Time and again. The horse is dead. OpenBSD will not distribute software that uses the IBM license. Period. End of discussion. If *you* want to distribute such software, that's your business. You probably even want to consult a lawyer before you do. (Incidentally, that's enough reason right there why OpenBSD won't touch the stuff. Valid or not, it's a decision that's been made, a line that's been drawn: no redistribution of software encumbered by licenses that are either excessively restrictive or that require a lawyer for interpretation.) But that's *your* problem. Not ours. Cheers, b [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of PGP.sig]
Re: Hackathon 2005
On 2005 Apr 30, at 5:22 PM, Jeff Bachtel wrote: On Sat, Apr 30, 2005 at 02:30:28PM -0700, Ben Goren wrote: As much as I'm sure Theo would love to get rid of gcc and friends...damn, that's a big undertaking. I don't think it's the sort of thing that would happen at a hackathon. If I had to guess, it'd be made the main point of some future release, with little other development. You know, the sort of thing that takes up lots of long winter nights. It's not likely to be fun, and I get the impression that hackathons are supposed to be fun. *blink* tech@ bitching aside, the GNU gcc project puts a HUGE amount of effort into improving their compiler. Forking it would have every chance of leading to stagnation in the OpenBSD project as processors and optimizations evolve. There are lots of things I don't know about the inner workings of OpenBSD. Of this, though I *am* sure: OpenBSD will never ``fork'' gcc. Oh, sure, there will probably always be OpenBSD-specific patches against it, or they may lag behind the current version, or what-not. But a fork? I just can't imagine it. Well, *maybe* if they moved gcc to this new version of the GPL everybody is talking about, but I can't really imagine that happening, either. In this distant, dim future I'm envisioning as gcc-less, I would expect Theo to either adopt TenDRA or roll his own compiler from scratch. I have no clue if TenDRA is anywhere close to being up to the task, and writing one's own is quite obviously about as mammoth a project as one could undertake. Notice how I started this paragraph with ``distant, dim future''? All in all, this topic is about as meaningful as us discussing petroleum replacements. Everybody knows that it'll have to happen some day, and perhaps even sooner than anybody really wants--though most would also be overjoyed to wave a magic wand and be done with it. There's a lot of pain between here and there and, while of utmost importance, it's also (currently) about as far from urgent as one can get. (Some day it will be very urgent, unless we discover that magic wand first.) This is pure WAG speculation, but I'd guess that the next OpenD would be OpenSMTPD [. . . .] Replacing Sendmail outright seems iffy at best. Search archives for when this has been mentioned in the past, and you will get no way in hell replies from Theo. Auditing and partitioning it, maybe. Again, you twist my words, and Theo's too, this time. I did *not* say that I expected a Sendmail replacement any time soon--quite the opposite. Let me put a definite limit on this: I'd bet no more than (a modest) lunch, and only on the condition that I already happened to be in the same city when the bet came due, that, the next time we see an OpenWHATEVER, it's an OpenSMTPD. We may not ever see another OpenWHATEVER, though that bunch just has too much fun hacking for me to imagine that. There may well be something like OpenNTPD that somebody like Henning is quietly working on--and, in fact, this is more likely to be the case than any particular specific thing. Yes, Theo has been quite vociferous about Sendmail replacements. You'll note, however, that in every one of those threads, Theo is responding to people demanding that he replace Sendmail with some specific other MTA. There is no way in hell that Qmail, for example, will ever go in OpenBSD. You'll also note that Theo has never said one word about writing his own MTA. Let me stress that: Theo has been ABSOLUTELY SILENT. He has said NOT ONE WORD. I would be damned surprised if he ever did--unless, of course, it was to say, ``Hey guys, foo@ has done some great work in writing OpenSMTPD for us. Grab a snapshot and help test it for us.'' All the speculation here is MINE. I'm doing a bit of Kremlinology, is all. It doesn't take a genius to notice all of Sendmail's warts. Of the items remaining in /usr/src/gnu, it's got the most license problems. In the past, warty code with undesirable licenses has been a prime target for replacement. All I'm really saying is that Sendmail is the wartiest piece of code left with a problematic license. And why should *you* care whether or not any of this ``scales.'' Managing the project is Theo's worry, not yours, and he's shown himself to be damned capable of doing so. Besides, which do you think is easier: maintaining your own code that you know better than anybody else, or maintaining somebody else's code that you have to work to figure out? And I know from personal experience that, when you get the code right in the first place, you don't have to do anywhere near as much to maintain it. Cheers, b P.S. As long as we're talking about elephants in the room, it's worth mentioning Perl. Huge code, and all those modules written by everybody and his sister. I don't know which would be worse: writing an OpenPERL or writing C replacements for all that incredible stuff Espie's done to the ports system. Selfishly, I'd
