Re: How much time to 'master' OpenBSD
Like the other guy said 4-5 years. And that I would say I'm above intermediate level but not an advanced level. I don't look at it so much as how long to master OpenBSD but how long to master Unix! I read somewhere when I first started learning Unix, that no knows everything there is to know about Unix. So I'd say I'll be spending the rest of my life learning Unix. I found that OpenBSD is better to learn Unix than Linux. Linux I find to be to overwhelming to learn Unix because of all the bloat it has (i.e. 5 text editors on one distro). I've also found that OpenBSD is hard to learn to easy to use. It may be hard to learn what configuration you need to change in a text file to make something work the way you want, but once you learn, the task is as easy as making a change in a text file. I'd say subjectively that 80% of learning OpenBSD is not learning OpenBSD, but learning bind, sendmail, ftp, vi, etc. There are whole books on those individual programs.
Re: How much time to 'master' OpenBSD
On 6/8/07, Ted Unangst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i'm going to be different and say 3 months, but probably much less than that. Not to be an expert, or even a competent sysadmin, in my case. It was 1992, and I was working the VMS hell desk for the school as a student worker. Heard about this new unix system they have, so I asked for an acount. Got one, logged in, and couldn't do anything. Went back to the person who gave me an account, and asked for help. She told me to type learn. And that's how I got started. Do a lot of reading and learning on my own, read RFCs even, when people pointed them to me. Hung out around comp.sys, alt.hackers, alt.unix.wizards. I learn quite a bit, then reached a level of competence as a user. Then, another growth spurt, and I learn about system administration. After a while, I could install/configure a basic system, but didn't have large system/big installation experience. Read a lot more, test things out a lot more, picked up some good books that filled in the holes in my knowledge (on certain things, I still suck, printing, for example). Being employed to do system admin type stuff was helpful, because I now have to learn how to do certain things, and also document them for others - yes, even writing good documentation is a good sysadmin skill [the guy who took over after I left was reading my docs one day, and asked around about me - then said that just from what I wrote, it would have been cool to meet me, heh :)] you can learn enough vi (or mg) to do basic tasks like editing config files within a day. And then, practice, practice, practice you can learn enough about starting apache, named, or whatever to use the shipped default configs in about a day for each service. Probably will need a bit more time, if he wants to understand what he is doing, if he didn't have a network/service background. Obviously learning a second service is easier, and then easier for a third. Don't try to play with sendmail, just go postfix or exim :) needed to learn regex back expressions. yes, to master openbsd takes a long time, but you don't need to be a master to use it successfully. you only need to master the parts you use. By the time I got to openbsd (around 2.4 or so), I've already been playing with ultrix, osf/1, sunos, solaris and the slackware (never did like rhell, _ever_), so picking openbsd up wasn't an issue. Read the install file, read the manpages, done. One thing openbsd does very well is the, everything has a manpage mantra. And I was so impressed/surprised when Theo took committed code *OUT* because the manpage hasn't been written yet. OpenBSD is a good operating system to start on. It doesn't have some of the things that you may, or may not need, but you can definitely learn a lot from it, and if you go to other OSes from OpenBSD, you'll be coming in strong. Also take a look at usenix/sage's system administration levels, that should give you a good roadmap on the kinds of skills needed. A couple of good books to get you started: UNIX System Administration (purple book, I had the 2nd edition which was red) and any of the books by the guy who wrote Advanced Unix programming. Also go over to Matt Bishop's website, and read the articles/classes he has up. The most important thing is this - it's not how well you can tune sendmail or whatever, but the mindset. If you have the correct mindset, when you encounter a new problem, you'll be able to figure out how to fix it. -- This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity. -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation.
Re: How much time to 'master' OpenBSD
On Fri, 8 Jun 2007 12:58:37 +0200, Pieter Verberne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi there OpenBSD users, I wonder how much time it took for the average person to 'master' OpenBSD or a similar OS. With 'master' I mean you have all skills to configure and use the system. You know reguar expressions, thorough cli skills like pipes/vi/mg/scripts etc. Probably most would say that you also need to know programming languages and networking knowledge to master an OS but in this case I want to ignore them. This is an impossible question to answer. Everyone's capabilities to absorb and apply new information are different. Not to mention that OpenBSD is a moving target (albeit a slower one than most) and quite dissimilar from similar OSes that share the common UNIX goals but vary greatly in implementation (e.g. BSD v SysV init). -- Jason Dixon DixonGroup Consulting http://www.dixongroup.net
Re: How much time to 'master' OpenBSD
On Fri, Jun 08, 2007 at 12:58:37PM +0200, Pieter Verberne wrote: I wonder how much time it took for the average person to 'master' OpenBSD or a similar OS 30 seconds. What's taking you so long? :) - Seriously, this is an unanswerable question, since the definition of master is individually derived. I've been using Unix for decades, and believe I have mastered some features of Unix and Unix-like systems. And some application environments. But there's *plenty* I know nothing about. Just ask any developer who's dealt with me, and they'll agree. :) I At one time, there was a BSD certification program in development. I'm not sure where things stand, but they do have a website: http://www.bsdcertification.org/
Re: How much time to 'master' OpenBSD
4-5 years, but I'm still learning lots and lots every day. It really depends a lot on the definition of mastering, since using an OS also requires understanding the real world situation where you use the OS in. I felt at home on *nix after 2-3 years, which I think is something easier to define.
Re: How much time to 'master' OpenBSD
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Pieter Verberne Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 6:59 AM To: misc@openbsd.org Subject: How much time to 'master' OpenBSD Hi there OpenBSD users, I wonder how much time it took for the average person to 'master' OpenBSD or a similar OS. With 'master' I mean you have all skills to configure and use the system. You know reguar expressions, thorough cli skills like pipes/vi/mg/scripts etc. Probably most would say that you also need to know programming languages and networking knowledge to master an OS but in this case I want to ignore them. Pieter Verberne I don't think that i will EVER master OpenBSD, but then again, as a personal rule, I never claim to be an expert at anything. My boss would probably say differant, he thinks I'm pretty smart (lucky me... groan...). What he doesn't know is every time I get stuck I come crying to the OpenBSD Misc list for help. You guys are awsome!
Re: How much time to 'master' OpenBSD
On Friday 08 June 2007 14:59:16 you wrote: It's very much in full swing. Beta exams were given at BSDCan and LinuxTAG. There is some OpenBSD representation on the BSDCG (Certification Group), including wim@ and [EMAIL PROTECTED] lol... do you speak about yourself in the third person? ;-) -- Antoine
Re: How much time to 'master' OpenBSD
On Fri, 8 Jun 2007 08:36:35 -0400, Josh Grosse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At one time, there was a BSD certification program in development. I'm not sure where things stand, but they do have a website: http://www.bsdcertification.org/ It's very much in full swing. Beta exams were given at BSDCan and LinuxTAG. There is some OpenBSD representation on the BSDCG (Certification Group), including wim@ and [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Jason Dixon DixonGroup Consulting http://www.dixongroup.net
Re: How much time to 'master' OpenBSD
On Fri, 8 Jun 2007 15:08:50 +0200, Antoine Jacoutot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: lol... do you speak about yourself in the third person? jdixon@ has been known to, yes. -- Jason Dixon DixonGroup Consulting http://www.dixongroup.net
Re: How much time to 'master' OpenBSD
On Friday 08 June 2007 15:49:22 Jason Dixon wrote: jdixon@ has been known to, yes. Excellent! He should be called Julius then, not Jason. ;) -- Antoine
Re: How much time to 'master' OpenBSD
On Fri, 8 Jun 2007 15:53:12 +0200, Antoine Jacoutot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 08 June 2007 15:49:22 Jason Dixon wrote: jdixon@ has been known to, yes. Excellent! He should be called Julius then, not Jason. Et tu, Antoine? -- Jason Dixon DixonGroup Consulting http://www.dixongroup.net
Re: How much time to 'master' OpenBSD
Pieter Verberne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wonder how much time it took for the average person to 'master' OpenBSD or a similar OS. Back when I started out with Unix, in the early 1990s, people told me it would take ten years to master sysadmin skills. You can quibble about that figure, but systems sure haven't become simpler in the meantime. (At this point the cocksure PC power users who want to run some flavor of Unix because it's kewl and who ask me that question usually start to deflate a bit.) -- Christian naddy Weisgerber [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How much time to 'master' OpenBSD
Pieter Verberne wrote: I wonder how much time it took for the average person to 'master' OpenBSD or a similar OS. Twelve years.
Re: How much time to 'master' OpenBSD
Pieter Verberne wrote: Hi there OpenBSD users, I wonder how much time it took for the average person to 'master' OpenBSD or a similar OS. With 'master' I mean you have all skills to configure and use the system. You know reguar expressions, thorough cli skills like pipes/vi/mg/scripts etc. Probably most would say that you also need to know programming languages and networking knowledge to master an OS but in this case I want to ignore them. Pieter Verberne All depend on how seriously you read the FAQ and the man page really. Even after years of using it, I still learn new things regularly and I make it a must do, to read the FAQ all over again time to time. So, to answer your question, it's more like how seriously are you ready man page and FAQ and absorb what's there as all you need to know is there. That's assuming you have basic understanding of Unix and network stuff, etc. So, your answer is really you that can provide it based on your willingness to read the great documentations available to you. After you answer that question, you will have your answer. Best, Daniel
Re: How much time to 'master' OpenBSD
On Jun 8, 2007, at 5:58 AM, Pieter Verberne wrote: Hi there OpenBSD users, I wonder how much time it took for the average person to 'master' OpenBSD or a similar OS. About 10 years through deliberate practice, just like any other complex area of study. See The Role of Deliberate Practice in the Acquisition of Expert Performance by Ericsson, et al. http://projects.ict.usc.edu/itw/gel/EricssonDeliberatePracticePR93.pdf Choice quote: Our review has also shown that the maximal level of performance for individuals in a given domain is not attained automatically as function of extended experience, but the level of performance can be increased even by highly experienced individuals as a result ofdeliberate efforts to improve. Hence, stable levels of performance after extended experience are not rigidly limited by unmodifiable, possibly innate, factors, but can be further increased by deliberate efforts. We have shown that expert performance is acquired slowly over a very long time as a result of practice and that the highest levels of performance and achievement appear to require at least around 10 years of intense prior preparation. The areas of study particular to mastering systems administration haven't changed much over the decades, just the particulars. I think the table of contents and bibliography of _Essential System Administration_ by Frisch is a good introduction to the topics. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/esa3/toc.html Others mentioned BSDCertification.org which also has a pretty comprehensive list areas of study. http://www.bsdcertification.org/downloads/ pr_20051005_certreq_bsda_en_en.pdf -- Freedom, truth, love, beauty. John Rodenbiker [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How much time to 'master' OpenBSD
On 6/8/07, Pieter Verberne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wonder how much time it took for the average person to 'master' OpenBSD or a similar OS. With 'master' I mean you have all skills to configure and use the system. You know reguar expressions, thorough cli skills like pipes/vi/mg/scripts etc. Probably most would say that you also need to know programming languages and networking knowledge to master an OS but in this case I want to ignore them. [using 'you' below in the abstract sense.] i'm going to be different and say 3 months, but probably much less than that. i switched to using openbsd with no previous unix experience. i installed it myself (into a triple boot windows/linux setup. linux was installed the day before. i actually used linux maybe 2 times.). i was pretty much using it without issues within a month. i was a student at the time, so of course i had infinite time and no deadlines, but still, not that bad. if you've never installed any OS before, the installer may be confusing. pushing enter a lot helps. i had previously screwed around with dos extended partitions, ramdisks, norton disk encryption, whatever, so disklabel was nothing new. you can learn enough vi (or mg) to do basic tasks like editing config files within a day. you can learn enough about starting apache, named, or whatever to use the shipped default configs in about a day for each service. a basic pf setup that just does nat takes maybe a day. so even assuming notepad is the only text editor you've ever used, i'd expect you could setup a personal web server that also nats your home network in a weekend. learning stuff like regex or scripting can take however long you want to spend on it, but you learn these things as you go. i used openbsd for several years before ever going beyond the most basic shell tasks, or perl at all. it was maybe 2 years before i needed to learn regex back expressions. yes, to master openbsd takes a long time, but you don't need to be a master to use it successfully. you only need to master the parts you use.
Re: How much time to 'master' OpenBSD
On 6/8/07, Ted Unangst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6/8/07, Pieter Verberne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wonder how much time it took for the average person to 'master' OpenBSD or a similar OS. With 'master' I mean you have all skills to configure and use the system. You know reguar expressions, thorough cli skills like pipes/vi/mg/scripts etc. Probably most would say that you also need to know programming languages and networking knowledge to master an OS but in this case I want to ignore them. [using 'you' below in the abstract sense.] i'm going to be different and say 3 months, but probably much less than that. i switched to using openbsd with no previous unix experience. i installed it myself (into a triple boot windows/linux setup. linux was installed the day before. i actually used linux maybe 2 times.). i was pretty much using it without issues within a month. i was a student at the time, so of course i had infinite time and no deadlines, but still, not that bad. if you've never installed any OS before, the installer may be confusing. pushing enter a lot helps. i had previously screwed around with dos extended partitions, ramdisks, norton disk encryption, whatever, so disklabel was nothing new. you can learn enough vi (or mg) to do basic tasks like editing config files within a day. you can learn enough about starting apache, named, or whatever to use the shipped default configs in about a day for each service. a basic pf setup that just does nat takes maybe a day. so even assuming notepad is the only text editor you've ever used, i'd expect you could setup a personal web server that also nats your home network in a weekend. learning stuff like regex or scripting can take however long you want to spend on it, but you learn these things as you go. i used openbsd for several years before ever going beyond the most basic shell tasks, or perl at all. it was maybe 2 years before i needed to learn regex back expressions. yes, to master openbsd takes a long time, but you don't need to be a master to use it successfully. you only need to master the parts you use. It's awesome hearing Ted's experience. I'd paraphrase the saying of a popular board game, it's easy to get started with, and one can continue mastering OpenBSD as long as they want to. To get a SOHO OpenBSD server set up it doesn't take long to get that level mastered. Greg
