Re: OT: Old School Unix vs. Modern Day Support Professionals - was (Defending OpenBSD Performance)
Most long term OpenBSD users know of THEOS. The reason is simple; the scumbag company behind that OS tried to use reverse domain hijacking (i.e. a bogus dispute claim) to steal the THEOS.COM domain name from it's owner, namely Theo de Raadt. Here's the goss: http://theos.com/dispute.html Best wishes.
Re: OT: Old School Unix vs. Modern Day Support Professionals - was (Defending OpenBSD Performance)
-Original Message- From: J.C. Roberts [mailto:list-...@designtools.org] Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 9:58 PM To: Brian Shackelford Cc: misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: OT: Old School Unix vs. Modern Day Support Professionals - was (Defending OpenBSD Performance) On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:27:47 -0400 Brian Shackelford bshackelf...@dns-net.com wrote: Old School Unix = People that KNOW what they are doing. I work with Macs, PC's, Windows, Novell, Mac OS, Linux, Unix, Windows, DOS (Yes some customers still use this), THEOS (anyone else heard of that one???) Most long term OpenBSD users know of THEOS. The reason is simple; the scumbag company behind that OS tried to use reverse domain hijacking (i.e. a bogus dispute claim) to steal the THEOS.COM domain name from it's owner, namely Theo de Raadt. -jon -- J.C. Roberts Sounds right to me. Last time I needed something from them, I had to cut off my right foot. Customer was up and running, but I am still limping :) - Brian
Re: OT: Old School Unix vs. Modern Day Support Professionals - was (Defending OpenBSD Performance)
Fact of the matter is that I have become convinced that those that know how to actually TROUBLESHOOT problems are in the very small minority in this industry. I think this is really the crux of the matter, I find the ability to troubleshoot multi-vendor complexity is getting to be a rare commodity, its something thats very hard to interview people for. Nowadays people are so proud of their certification and specialized domain knowledge that they actively avoid learning or thinking about stuff outside of their specialized area.
Re: OT: Old School Unix vs. Modern Day Support Professionals - was (Defending OpenBSD Performance)
-Original Message- From: owner-m...@openbsd.org [mailto:owner-m...@openbsd.org] On Behalf Of openbsd misc Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 2:27 PM To: misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: OT: Old School Unix vs. Modern Day Support Professionals - was (Defending OpenBSD Performance) Fact of the matter is that I have become convinced that those that know how to actually TROUBLESHOOT problems are in the very small minority in this industry. I think this is really the crux of the matter, I find the ability to troubleshoot multi-vendor complexity is getting to be a rare commodity, its something thats very hard to interview people for. Nowadays people are so proud of their certification and specialized domain knowledge that they actively avoid learning or thinking about stuff outside of their specialized area. And that is specifically my point. People want to justify their own worth and bloat their value beyond what it is by calling others names or by raising their specialization higher than the median thereby making themselves better about themselves. In reality it is understanding the median rather than the specialization that will allow one to find the solution to the majority of problems. So many times I tell our clients - I don't care who's fault it is - let's just get it fixed (this is usually in response to a finger pointing in our face by another vendor trying to save face - blaming us for something we have absolutely no control over...). In order to just get it fixed one has to stop worrying about who's fault it is and man up (or woman up - don't want to seem discriminatory here...) and take responsibility to follow it through to a solution. Unix folks had to know what they were doing because you had to understand how it all worked. You actually had to read the manual and understand what effect enabling this or disabling that would do. The best part is you couldn't accidentally point, click, and stop or remove a piece of software that hoses the entire system - you had to use the command line to do administrative tasks - which meant you had to (or should) know the commands to use before attempting anything. That is why I love OpenBSD. Everything is documented, source is available, and you have to understand the system to use it... ...if you don't understand it - and are unhappy with the system - and are unwilling to spend the time to learn it - then the best thing for you to do is login as root and type in the following: * cd / rm -rf * * ...and now you learned something - DONT DO ANYTHING WIHTOUT UNDERSTANDING IT FIRST *** Disclaimer: I take no responsibility for the results of running the above commands although I would be intensely interested to hear the results of anyone who does run them and their personal experiences immediately following. Run them only at your own risk AFTER understanding what they do... That is where these folks that want to LOUDLY complain about something not working in OpenBSD or want to complain because feature X is not in the OS really kill me. They try to use OpenBSD to fit into a mold that it was not designed for and want feature X to work. Either take the initiative and contribute feature X, politely ask if there is a need for feature X or if has been thought of, or be quiet. OpenBSD works great for everything I use it for - unfortunately until I can run MS SQL and .NET 3.5 (yes mono is getting close - and - MySQL is maturing very nicely in its featureset!!) to run on it I am relegated to a MS based system for now as my work PC. But for my firewalls and mail filtering systems OpenBSD rocks and is rock solid. There isn't anything I have tried to use OpenBSD for (knowing the limitations on it - such as it can't run apps written for Windows - which is something other people seem to forget) that has not worked. I never claim or even suspect that I know all the answers (but I know where to find them) - and that is the strength and difference between those people that know how to fix problems and those that do not. If you think you know it all - then there is no more room for knowledge and you are unwilling to accept you might be wrong - which will forever hinder your ability to learn from your mistakes. If you approach every problem with no preconceived notions and look at it as if you had never seen it before you are more likely to find the right solution the first time - and yes sometimes it is YOUR fault! Again - feel free to obliterate my thoughts - but know that if your comments are negative I might not and probably will not lose any sleep over it. Thank you to those that continue to devote their time and money to this project and I will make a great attempt and not extending this thread longer than I have already.. :)
Re: OT: Old School Unix vs. Modern Day Support Professionals - was (Defending OpenBSD Performance)
On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Aaron Mason simplersolut...@gmail.com wrote: Oh yes, M$ were very much against that, even when it was the only solution and the one suggested in their knowledge base! This is good reading that goes through the horrors of such things, as well as their training slash indoctrination: http://www.kmfms.com/unmaintainable.txt You need to read this then: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/11/21/ms_paper_touts_unix/ -- http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity. -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation. Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory where smoking on the job is permitted. -- Gene Spafford learn french: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30v_g83VHK4
Re: OT: Old School Unix vs. Modern Day Support Professionals - was (Defending OpenBSD Performance)
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:27:47 -0400 Brian Shackelford bshackelf...@dns-net.com wrote: Old School Unix = People that KNOW what they are doing. I work with Macs, PC's, Windows, Novell, Mac OS, Linux, Unix, Windows, DOS (Yes some customers still use this), THEOS (anyone else heard of that one???) Most long term OpenBSD users know of THEOS. The reason is simple; the scumbag company behind that OS tried to use reverse domain hijacking (i.e. a bogus dispute claim) to steal the THEOS.COM domain name from it's owner, namely Theo de Raadt. -jon -- J.C. Roberts
Re: OT: Old School Unix vs. Modern Day Support Professionals - was (Defending OpenBSD Performance)
That is my $1.87 worth - flame me - stone me - whatever if you must - but again it is just one man's opinion. Don't be sorry, that's one of the better and more literate rants I've seen on misc@ in a while.
Re: OT: Old School Unix vs. Modern Day Support Professionals - was (Defending OpenBSD Performance)
+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 :-) Brian Shackelford escribis: Correction, a professional OS that requires its users to be professionals. Not a bunch of whining windows update people that have to call IT to launch excel. In case you hadn't noticed we are old school UNIX users that don't mind fixing whatever problem is at hand. Including writing code or fixing a bug. This is why in the olden days your IT department was worth something and wasn't a bunch of monkeys reading a script. It is exactly your attitude that has ruined the computer industry. You have an odd definition of professional, and the kind of attitude that sounds like you haven't actually worked in the computer industry in a while. Generally, the computer industry is about providing services to end users. And things like easy updates, specialisation of labour and all of that kind of stuff have made us an awful lot better at taht than 'old school UNIX' ever was. You know it is interesting - having been in this industry for over 16 years - to see the attitudes of so many professionals in the IT industry. I make my living by fixing all the problems many of these so-called professionals cause when the work on things. It is so very troubling to get phone calls from people that have been laid off from their IT job in some of the large corporations where they commanded huge salaries and now they have opened their own business and are calling us for support because they don't have a clue about what it takes to actually do the work. I almost believe that the perception in this industry is if you can pronounce server, workstation, network, switch, hard drive, and a few other highly technical (btw - the should be read with sarcasm for you Microsoft folks out there) terms, that it is acceptable to call yourself an IT professional. Fact of the matter is that I have become convinced that those that know how to actually TROUBLESHOOT problems are in the very small minority in this industry. Don't get me wrong - I am by no means complaining - for it is how I get paid. I am just sick of so-called professionals with Master's Degrees in IT telling me that they are right and I am wrong because they think pushing a few buttons and having a degree makes them smarter than some of us that earned our experience. Old School Unix = People that KNOW what they are doing. I work with Macs, PC's, Windows, Novell, Mac OS, Linux, Unix, Windows, DOS (Yes some customers still use this), THEOS (anyone else heard of that one???). I have the certifications to prove my knowledge - but none of that means bupkiss if I can't fix a problem I have never seen before. The strength of Old-School Unix folks is their resourcefulness in fixing the problems they are faced with - whether they have seen that specific problem or not - without having to whine to everyone that it just doesn't work. If there is a problem -they fix it - sometimes that means writing code or hacking together a solution. I can't begin to tell you how many times a client has a call into Microsoft and we fix the problem hours (if not days) before Microsoft calls back simply by actually troubleshooting and researching the problem. Sometimes this means we actually (gasp) edit the registry. Now to bring this to the place of why this relates to OpenBSD. I love OpenBSD, we have some installs that have been in place for several years and I never even think about them. I lose sleep every night I go home when I think about all the Windows systems we manage, but I never even think about the OpenBSD boxes we have put in place. Performance - well three years running with no patches and never a problem and never been compromised. Let me see ANY other OS make that claim. Microsoft Server - connect to internet - compromised within minutes (actually happened to a customer of ours...) Sorry for the long-winded post. I am simply tired of reading whiny people complain about stuff they know nothing about. If you don't like it, don't use it. If you don't understand it, then don't use it - OR - (this might be earth shattering) take the time to LEARN to use it. There are lots of people here that will help when asked questions that show you have done your LEARNING BEFORE you ask. And how much did it cost you..? That is my $1.87 worth - flame me - stone me - whatever if you must - but again it is just one man's opinion. Placing my Order today for the new set - that should take the US to at least 11 copies..:)
Re: OT: Old School Unix vs. Modern Day Support Professionals - was (Defending OpenBSD Performance)
Sorry Brian to sort of hijack this new thread; until late last night I had no time to follow the original one and you don't attribute your opponent. On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 12:27 -0400, Brian Shackelford wrote: Correction, a professional OS that requires its users to be professionals. Not a bunch of whining windows update people that have to call IT to launch excel. In case you hadn't noticed we are old school UNIX users that don't mind fixing whatever problem is at hand. Including writing code or fixing a bug. This is why in the olden days your IT department was worth something and wasn't a bunch of monkeys reading a script. It is exactly your attitude that has ruined the computer industry. You have an odd definition of professional, and the kind of attitude that sounds like you haven't actually worked in the computer industry in a while. Dunno about Brian, I have been in the IT Business since 1969, I've seen it developing. With the advent of personal computers it first seemed that IT might provide real value to the masses. Anyone who still remembers AmigaOS? Generally, the computer industry is about providing services to end users. Correct, but: When m$ started to release unfinished products to meet a deadline imposed by marketing they together with intel won the battle, resulting in companies like digital equipment long ago or sgi not that long ago disappearing from the market. Nowadays I can't buy a solidly built computer anywhere, I have to design it by myself. In the old days of microprocessors that used to be a managable task for a single person, nowadays you have to find a large team of people capable of using their own brains instead of following prescribed pathes. And things like easy updates, specialisation of labour and all of that kind of stuff have made us an awful lot better at taht than 'old school UNIX' ever was. *ROTFL* guess who developed most of that easy upgrade stuff e.g. for Debian, every single person involved in that effort is an old style Unix professional; I wasn't among them but having been an unimportant Debian developer from '95 thru '04 I know them. You know it is interesting - having been in this industry for over 16 years - to see the attitudes of so many professionals in the IT industry. I make my living by fixing all the problems many of these so-called professionals cause when the work on things. It is so very troubling to get phone calls from people that have been laid off from their IT job in some of the large corporations where they commanded huge salaries and now they have opened their own business and are calling us for support because they don't have a clue about what it takes to actually do the work. I almost believe that the perception in this industry is if you can pronounce server, workstation, network, switch, hard drive, and a few other highly technical (btw - the should be read with sarcasm for you Microsoft folks out there) terms, that it is acceptable to call yourself an IT professional. Fact of the matter is that I have become convinced that those that know how to actually TROUBLESHOOT problems are in the very small minority in this industry. Don't get me wrong - I am by no means complaining - for it is how I get paid. I am just sick of so-called professionals with Master's Degrees in IT telling me that they are right and I am wrong because they think pushing a few buttons and having a degree makes them smarter than some of us that earned our experience. Old School Unix = People that KNOW what they are doing. I work with Macs, PC's, Windows, Novell, Mac OS, Linux, Unix, Windows, DOS (Yes some customers still use this), THEOS (anyone else heard of that one???). I have the certifications to prove my knowledge - but none of that means bupkiss if I can't fix a problem I have never seen before. The strength of Old-School Unix folks is their resourcefulness in fixing the problems they are faced with - whether they have seen that specific problem or not - without having to whine to everyone that it just doesn't work. If there is a problem -they fix it - sometimes that means writing code or hacking together a solution. I can't begin to tell you how many times a client has a call into Microsoft and we fix the problem hours (if not days) before Microsoft calls back simply by actually troubleshooting and researching the problem. Sometimes this means we actually (gasp) edit the registry. Now to bring this to the place of why this relates to OpenBSD. I love OpenBSD, we have some installs that have been in place for several years and I never even think about them. I lose sleep every night I go home when I think about all the Windows systems we manage, but I never even think about the OpenBSD boxes we have put in place. Performance - well three years running with no patches and never a problem and never been compromised. Let me see ANY
Re: OT: Old School Unix vs. Modern Day Support Professionals - was (Defending OpenBSD Performance)
First, thank you for a very enlightening rant - the best I've seen since I joined the list. *reaches for toilet paper to blow nose* On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 2:27 AM, Brian Shackelford bshackelf...@dns-net.com wrote: [snip] You know it is interesting - having been in this industry for over 16 years - to see the attitudes of so many professionals in the IT industry. I make my living by fixing all the problems many of these so-called professionals cause when the work on things. It is so very troubling to get phone calls from people that have been laid off from their IT job in some of the large corporations where they commanded huge salaries and now they have opened their own business and are calling us for support because they don't have a clue about what it takes to actually do the work. The industry is filled with clueless Master degree holders and DIY HTML gurus alike. The ones in the middle earned their experience through getting their hands dirty and many have pieces of paper to show for it. I haven't been in the industry for very long (I graduated university last year) but I have seen my fair share of know-it-alls cause large amounts of damage as a result of their cluelessness. One guy I saw building a computer couldn't get a memory chip in (it was in backwards) so he went to his toolkit and reached for a hammer. I promptly took the hammer off of him and showed him how to do it - it was all I could do to stop me from hitting him with that bloody hammer. I almost believe that the perception in this industry is if you can pronounce server, workstation, network, switch, hard drive, and a few other highly technical (btw - the should be read with sarcasm for you Microsoft folks out there) terms, that it is acceptable to call yourself an IT professional. Fact of the matter is that I have become convinced that those that know how to actually TROUBLESHOOT problems are in the very small minority in this industry. QFT. It is a rather rare skill and a difficult one to get across in an interview. You're fighting against people who talk buzzwords when you know that the buzzwords aren't real knowledge. Don't get me wrong - I am by no means complaining - for it is how I get paid. I am just sick of so-called professionals with Master's Degrees in IT telling me that they are right and I am wrong because they think pushing a few buttons and having a degree makes them smarter than some of us that earned our experience. I remember the glory days of DOS - if you wanted to run something, you had to find it yourself and run the correct command. If you didn't want to go and find it, write a batch file. These days GUIs make everything push-button and obscure the details. While some GUIs allow you to get the job done quicker (there are things like web browsing for which a GUI is almost essential, even if it's *curses based), they dumb things down and often make specialised operations impossible. Old School Unix = People that KNOW what they are doing. I work with Macs, PC's, Windows, Novell, Mac OS, Linux, Unix, Windows, DOS (Yes some customers still use this), THEOS (anyone else heard of that one???). I have the certifications to prove my knowledge - but none of that means bupkiss if I can't fix a problem I have never seen before. The strength of Old-School Unix folks is their resourcefulness in fixing the problems they are faced with - whether they have seen that specific problem or not - without having to whine to everyone that it just doesn't work. If there is a problem -they fix it - sometimes that means writing code or hacking together a solution. I can't begin to tell you how many times a client has a call into Microsoft and we fix the problem hours (if not days) before Microsoft calls back simply by actually troubleshooting and researching the problem. Sometimes this means we actually (gasp) edit the registry. Oh yes, M$ were very much against that, even when it was the only solution and the one suggested in their knowledge base! This is good reading that goes through the horrors of such things, as well as their training slash indoctrination: http://www.kmfms.com/unmaintainable.txt Now to bring this to the place of why this relates to OpenBSD. I love OpenBSD, we have some installs that have been in place for several years and I never even think about them. I lose sleep every night I go home when I think about all the Windows systems we manage, but I never even think about the OpenBSD boxes we have put in place. Performance - well three years running with no patches and never a problem and never been compromised. Let me see ANY other OS make that claim. Microsoft Server - connect to internet - compromised within minutes (actually happened to a customer of ours...) I remember the first time I installed OpenBSD - I was amazed at how intuititve the installer was. Previous installs of Linux were pretty good, but nothing compared
