Re: [OT] What do you use for MIME email?

[Anton Karpov]

> Because Theo uses mail(1) so clearly it's good enough for everyone?
>
> Who knows.



By the way, I wonder what email client Theo uses on  a daily basis. There is
no x-mailer/x-user-agent in his email headers...

Re: What do you use for MIME email?

[Darrin Chandler]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 08:29:17PM -0400, Nick Holland wrote:
> Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> ...
> >MIME has been around for 14 years.  There's no excuse for any MUA not to 
> >be able to deal with it at least minimally.  In the case of 
> >/usr/bin/Mail that means recognizing content types and only displaying 
> >text/* sections when printing to the screen.  It doesn't *have* to be 
> >complicated.
> 
> Your diff demonstrating this simplicity seems to have been stripped by 
> the mail lists.  Please resubmit it in-line...
> 
> Nick.

Now and then you make me chuckle.

-- 
Darrin Chandler|  Phoenix BSD Users Group
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   |  http://bsd.phoenix.az.us/
http://www.stilyagin.com/  |

Re: What do you use for MIME email?

[Nick Holland]

Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
...
MIME has been around for 14 years.  There's no excuse for any MUA not to 
be able to deal with it at least minimally.  In the case of 
/usr/bin/Mail that means recognizing content types and only displaying 
text/* sections when printing to the screen.  It doesn't *have* to be 
complicated.


Your diff demonstrating this simplicity seems to have been stripped by 
the mail lists.  Please resubmit it in-line...


Nick.

Re: What do you use for MIME email?

[Melameth, Daniel D.]

J Moore wrote:
> Lyndon is right... and in recognition of that I understand that the
> project lead is negotiating with Microsoft (through Warren Buffet) to
> port Outlook to OpenBSD. Theo will provide more details...

(Can't... help... it...  Must... reply...)

That's great news!  I look forward to seeing more of Warren's 40+
billion dollar stipend to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation being
applied towards improving "lives around the world" through supporting
better open software for all.

Re: What do you use for MIME email?

[Diana Eichert]

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006, Matthew P Szudzik wrote:

> My understanding is that Mail (equivalently mail or mailx) is the only
> email client that is in the OpenBSD default install.  But Mail does not
> handle MIME-encoded messages, so I was wondering what most people use to
> read and send them.

For reading mail on my OpenBSD systems I use mail on the local system.
 However I have my systems configured to forward all my accounts to a
single account on one system.  On that system I use either mutt or pine.
When I want to send an e-mail with a MIME attachment from the command line
or in a script I use "mailit" from Chuck Gagnon.  He posted about it here,
http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/openbsd/2005-03/2792.html and it is
available from here, http://homepage.mac.com/gagnocg/downloads/ .

> Do you download metamail and/or mpack from ports?
> Do you use a different email client like nail, nmh, or pine?

nope, yes, mailit

> Why isn't there a MIME encoding/decoding solution in the default install?
> (Or maybe there is, but I'm ignorant of it?)

What part of the default install requires the use of a MUA that supports
MIME attachments?

diana

Past hissy-fits are not a predictor of future hissy-fits.
Nick Holland(06 Dec 2005)

Re: What do you use for MIME email?

[Darrin Chandler]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 11:40:30AM -0700, Spruell, Darren-Perot wrote:
> 
> Good lord, do these threads never end?

Replying with that somewhat invalidates your point. That is something
that one should mumble while hitting the delete key. ;)

-- 
Darrin Chandler|  Phoenix BSD Users Group
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   |  http://bsd.phoenix.az.us/
http://www.stilyagin.com/  |

Re: What do you use for MIME email?

[Spruell, Darren-Perot]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> MIME has been around for 14 years.  There's no excuse for any 
> MUA not to 
> be able to deal with it at least minimally.  In the case of 
> /usr/bin/Mail 
> that means recognizing content types and only displaying 
> text/* sections 
> when printing to the screen.  It doesn't *have* to be complicated.

Good lord, do these threads never end?

Email support as configured in the base install serves one purpose -
delivering system notifications to the admin.

Since the base install won't be delivering MIME messages, what purpose does
it serve? You don't get other email functionality without reconfiguring your
MTA. Since you're going to have to reconfigure mail support in the first
place to receive inbound PGP, S/MIME, and attachments, install a new MUA
while you're at it.

DS

Re: What do you use for MIME email?

[Inigo Tejedor Arrondo]

El mii, 26-07-2006 a las 10:40 -0700, Spruell, Darren-Perot escribis:
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > > Why isn't there a MIME encoding/decoding solution in the 
> > default install?  
> > > (Or maybe there is, but I'm ignorant of it?)
> 
> Why does it matter? There are lots of things not in the default install.

I think it is a good feature... you can use a Terabyte or a 256Mb flash
card :)

> Why do people always act like not having something in the default install is
> a problem?

Because of "others" influences ?

>  $ pkg_add -i mutt   # or whatever you like...

# pkg_add windowsvista doesn't work ;)

> 
> DS
> 



__ 
LLama Gratis a cualquier PC del Mundo. 
Llamadas a fijos y msviles desde 1 cintimo por minuto. 
http://es.voice.yahoo.com

Re: What do you use for MIME email?

[J Moore]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 11:31:39AM -0600, the unit calling itself Lyndon 
Nerenberg wrote:
> >Why would you want a MIME encoding solution in the default
> >installation? I mean, really, what do a large majority of systems need
> >MIME for?
> 
> 1) Character set support.  These days I suspect the number of Unix users 
> who can live completely within the US-ASCII glyph set are in the minority.
> 
> 2) PGP/MIME and S/MIME.  Even without doing crypto processing, MIME lets 
> the MUA display only the human readable parts without contortions.
> 
> MIME has been around for 14 years.  There's no excuse for any MUA not to 
> be able to deal with it at least minimally.  In the case of /usr/bin/Mail 
> that means recognizing content types and only displaying text/* sections 
> when printing to the screen.  It doesn't *have* to be complicated.

Lyndon is right... and in recognition of that I understand that the 
project lead is negotiating with Microsoft (through Warren Buffet) to 
port Outlook to OpenBSD. Theo will provide more details...

Re: What do you use for MIME email?

[Spruell, Darren-Perot]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > Why isn't there a MIME encoding/decoding solution in the 
> default install?  
> > (Or maybe there is, but I'm ignorant of it?)

Why does it matter? There are lots of things not in the default install.

Why do people always act like not having something in the default install is
a problem?

 $ pkg_add -i mutt   # or whatever you like...

DS

Re: What do you use for MIME email?

[Aaron W. Hsu]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 11:31:39AM -0600, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> >Why would you want a MIME encoding solution in the default
> >installation? I mean, really, what do a large majority of systems need
> >MIME for?
> 
> 1) Character set support.  These days I suspect the number of Unix users 
> who can live completely within the US-ASCII glyph set are in the minority.

Again, I doubt that an MUA having this functionality is really going
to be in high demand on the large majority of firewalls, web servers,
mail servers, or other such servers which are not meant to be the end
point to reading mail. Of course, that does not mean that it is not
useful, but I do believe this means it is outside the scope of the
default installation, which, to my understanding, is to be a minimal
installation with minimal feature-set and minimal problem points.

> 2) PGP/MIME and S/MIME.  Even without doing crypto processing, MIME lets 
> the MUA display only the human readable parts without contortions.

Again, I don't see this as applicable to the problem that ought to be
solved by the default installation of OpenBSD. The purpose of the
default base installation is not be be a full on installation designed
to fit every users need, but the smallest basic set of generally
useful functions that allows for easy expansion and addition. Under
this notion, it seems easier and more productive to relegate such
additional features to packages and Ports.

> MIME has been around for 14 years.  There's no excuse for any MUA not to 
> be able to deal with it at least minimally.  In the case of /usr/bin/Mail 
> that means recognizing content types and only displaying text/* sections 
> when printing to the screen.  It doesn't *have* to be complicated.

It would still represent an unnecessary additional effort for an
arguably minimal amount of gain for the developer's purposes, imo. Of
course, this is not to say that I have anything really great to say
here. I am not an official developer, and I don't really have that
much clout around here, so I can't really say. What I can say is that
if I had the choice, I would not put in an MUA that supported MIME for
just the reasons you have expressed here, even though I use OpenBSD as
a Desktop Development Workstation and I deal and use PGP, MIME, and my
mail client on a daily basis.

-- 
Aaron Hsu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
 
XMPP/Jabber/GTalk: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | ICQ: 153114301
AIM/Yahoo: NoorahAbeer | MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: What do you use for MIME email?

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

Why would you want a MIME encoding solution in the default
installation? I mean, really, what do a large majority of systems need
MIME for?


1) Character set support.  These days I suspect the number of Unix users 
who can live completely within the US-ASCII glyph set are in the minority.


2) PGP/MIME and S/MIME.  Even without doing crypto processing, MIME lets 
the MUA display only the human readable parts without contortions.


MIME has been around for 14 years.  There's no excuse for any MUA not to 
be able to deal with it at least minimally.  In the case of /usr/bin/Mail 
that means recognizing content types and only displaying text/* sections 
when printing to the screen.  It doesn't *have* to be complicated.


--lyndon

Re: What do you use for MIME email?

[Aaron W. Hsu]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 07:13:06PM +0200, Paul de Weerd wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 10:47:17AM -0400, Matthew P Szudzik wrote:
> | My understanding is that Mail (equivalently mail or mailx) is the only
> | email client that is in the OpenBSD default install.  But Mail does not
> | handle MIME-encoded messages, so I was wondering what most people use to
> | read and send them.
> |
> | Do you download metamail and/or mpack from ports?
> | Do you use a different email client like nail, nmh, or pine?
> 
> Check out mutt, it's in packages and it's very nice. I don't know nail
> or nmh, but it doesn't have the downsides of pine so I'd definitely
> prefer mutt over pine.
> 
> Yes, I am a mutt user, so I'm biased. Please take that into
> consideration ;) You should probably try out a couple of different
> solutions and settle with what you like best.

Speaking from all sides here's my layout of the MIME capable readers:

- Mutt
  Excellent IMAP/PGP support, which is why I currently use it.
- Gnus
  Configurable like nothing I have ever seen before, also excellent
  PGP and IMAP support, but YMMV since it's Emacs.
- NMH
  Great little client if you work at a command line a lot, since each
  piece is a unique program, making it easy to intersperse commands
  and mail commands. MIME support is good, but can be clumsy if you
  don't understand how it does it (kind of like the commands
  interface).
- Sylpheed
  Nice GUI, seems small enough, but, it's a GUI, so . . . yeah. :-)
  Good IMAP support.
- Thunderbird
  Nice for the masses, does things that it does fairly well, but feels
  larger than necessary. PGP support is good through and extension.
- Mailx
  This *is* a good program, but handling MIME is a bit strange IIRC.

-- 
Aaron Hsu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
 
XMPP/Jabber/GTalk: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | ICQ: 153114301
AIM/Yahoo: NoorahAbeer | MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: What do you use for MIME email?

[Darrin Chandler]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 10:47:17AM -0400, Matthew P Szudzik wrote:
> My understanding is that Mail (equivalently mail or mailx) is the only 
> email client that is in the OpenBSD default install.  But Mail does not 
> handle MIME-encoded messages, so I was wondering what most people use to 
> read and send them.
> 
> Do you download metamail and/or mpack from ports?
> Do you use a different email client like nail, nmh, or pine?
> 
> Why isn't there a MIME encoding/decoding solution in the default install?  
> (Or maybe there is, but I'm ignorant of it?)

Why would I want or need a MIME email client on my firewall? ;)

Also, there are a LOT of choices and opinions on which client to use,
and with pkg_add they are very easy to install.

I had used pine for many years, and Thunderbird. I've given them up and
now I use mutt.

-- 
Darrin Chandler|  Phoenix BSD Users Group
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   |  http://bsd.phoenix.az.us/
http://www.stilyagin.com/  |

Re: What do you use for MIME email?

[Aaron W. Hsu]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 10:47:17AM -0400, Matthew P Szudzik wrote:

> My understanding is that Mail (equivalently mail or mailx) is the
> only email client that is in the OpenBSD default install.  But Mail
> does not handle MIME-encoded messages, so I was wondering what most
> people use to read and send them.

I use Mutt, but have in the past used nmh (excellent), Gnus, and
Sylpheed.

> Do you download metamail and/or mpack from ports?  Do you use a
> different email client like nail, nmh, or pine?

IIRC, there is a solution to reading MIME messages with Mail, but I do
forget the precise method. 

> Why isn't there a MIME encoding/decoding solution in the default
> install?  (Or maybe there is, but I'm ignorant of it?)

Why would you want a MIME encoding solution in the default
installation? I mean, really, what do a large majority of systems need
MIME for? I would guess most people who use MIME are end-users who
want much more than the average Mail interface. It's just not a
practical idea to put that extra overhead for such a little
benefit. There are very adequate solutions in Ports, and they are easy
to install. Server systems running lean and mean will likely have no
use whatsoever for a MIME-enabled mail client.

Plus, there is, for me, that little sense of tradition that says you
don't want to see Pine or Mutt as the default mail client anyways on a
UNIX system. It's like always making sure ed is around. :-)

-- 
Aaron Hsu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
 
XMPP/Jabber/GTalk: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | ICQ: 153114301
AIM/Yahoo: NoorahAbeer | MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: What do you use for MIME email?

[Paul de Weerd]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 10:47:17AM -0400, Matthew P Szudzik wrote:
| My understanding is that Mail (equivalently mail or mailx) is the only
| email client that is in the OpenBSD default install.  But Mail does not
| handle MIME-encoded messages, so I was wondering what most people use to
| read and send them.
|
| Do you download metamail and/or mpack from ports?
| Do you use a different email client like nail, nmh, or pine?

Check out mutt, it's in packages and it's very nice. I don't know nail
or nmh, but it doesn't have the downsides of pine so I'd definitely
prefer mutt over pine.

Yes, I am a mutt user, so I'm biased. Please take that into
consideration ;) You should probably try out a couple of different
solutions and settle with what you like best.

Cheers,

Paul 'WEiRD' de Weerd

--
>[<++>-]<+++.>+++[<-->-]<.>+++[<+
+++>-]<.>++[<>-]<+.--.[-]
 http://www.weirdnet.nl/

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]

Re: What do you use for MIME email?

[David Terrell]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 10:47:17AM -0400, Matthew P Szudzik wrote:
> My understanding is that Mail (equivalently mail or mailx) is the only 
> email client that is in the OpenBSD default install.  But Mail does not 
> handle MIME-encoded messages, so I was wondering what most people use to 
> read and send them.
> 
> Do you download metamail and/or mpack from ports?
> Do you use a different email client like nail, nmh, or pine?

mutt.

> Why isn't there a MIME encoding/decoding solution in the default install?  
> (Or maybe there is, but I'm ignorant of it?)

Because there are a lot of different ones, many with non-BSD licenses
(mutt is GPLed, pine is not free at all), and you can't include just
one or two and make every one happy?

Because traditionally BSD didn't ship with anything more complex?

Because Theo uses mail(1) so clearly it's good enough for everyone?

Who knows.


-- 
David Terrell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
((meatspace)) http://meat.net/

What do you use for MIME email?

[Matthew P Szudzik]

My understanding is that Mail (equivalently mail or mailx) is the only 
email client that is in the OpenBSD default install.  But Mail does not 
handle MIME-encoded messages, so I was wondering what most people use to 
read and send them.

Do you download metamail and/or mpack from ports?
Do you use a different email client like nail, nmh, or pine?

Why isn't there a MIME encoding/decoding solution in the default install?  
(Or maybe there is, but I'm ignorant of it?)