Re: is there [EMAIL PROTECTED] archive?
> I agree with scorch, how do we find out what hardware is working best > and most used with OpenBSD. Quite honestly anything I get just works. Really. Everything works. And if it does not work perfectly, I talk to the various developers and we try to get it to work better. I talk to the various developers in the same way as anyone can, and we focus on the various issues that show up, be they drivers or the base bus code. So that by the time you get to the point of worrying about what hardware works best, it should all work best. > Even we you cant release the dmesg reports, what about a statistics > page, something along the lines of, x amount of x mobos is used with > OpenBSD, and other hardware as well. > > would that be possible? No. No time. Sorry. Even if we had the stats, how do you know that most people in dmesg are reporting well-working machines, instead of say... maybe they send in a dmesg if it works poorly? Many of you entirely overestimate the quality of the dmesg output. Many don't say what the machine is in detail, or how well it works. We do not intend to change our policy. Sorry.
Re: is there [EMAIL PROTECTED] archive?
I agree with scorch, how do we find out what hardware is working best and most used with OpenBSD. Even we you cant release the dmesg reports, what about a statistics page, something along the lines of, x amount of x mobos is used with OpenBSD, and other hardware as well. would that be possible? On 18/02/07, Theo de Raadt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The dmesgs submitted to [EMAIL PROTECTED] are not publicly accessible. > > At some point in time this was discussed, but we can't do that, since > > we never told people that they would be published. So they remain > > accessible to developers only. They are consulted very often, so keep > > them coming in! > > > On this topic - should we resubmit dmesgs periodically as the machines > are updated to newer versions? DEFINATELY! There are developers in the group who read the dmesg output very closely, looking for issues that you, as a user, would not even notice ;) -- -Lawrence -Student ID 1028219 -CCNA
Re: is there [EMAIL PROTECTED] archive?
> > The dmesgs submitted to [EMAIL PROTECTED] are not publicly accessible. > > At some point in time this was discussed, but we can't do that, since > > we never told people that they would be published. So they remain > > accessible to developers only. They are consulted very often, so keep > > them coming in! > > > On this topic - should we resubmit dmesgs periodically as the machines > are updated to newer versions? DEFINATELY! There are developers in the group who read the dmesg output very closely, looking for issues that you, as a user, would not even notice ;)
Re: is there [EMAIL PROTECTED] archive?
> The dmesgs submitted to [EMAIL PROTECTED] are not publicly accessible. > At some point in time this was discussed, but we can't do that, since > we never told people that they would be published. So they remain > accessible to developers only. They are consulted very often, so keep > them coming in! > On this topic - should we resubmit dmesgs periodically as the machines are updated to newer versions? I've machines that date back to 2.7. The machines have been updated as new releases come out, but I haven't resubmitted dmesgs since they were built. -- Craig
Re: is there [EMAIL PROTECTED] archive?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Theo de Raadt wrote: And they will NEVER receive as many dmesg's as we do, because our we promise privacy... There's no middle ground. Our developers never look at those, so they do not serve our purposes. We don't want to distract our users from sending in reports which actually serve our developers, and thus make better code. Sorry, but I do not agree with your direction on this. VERY OFTEN we do not document something because it hurts other things. i follow your point on privacy. but not the latter part (isn't this exactly what you/we are concerned about from vendors - lack of disclosure of useful information, due to "hurting commercial interests"? more to the point, i wish to buy "stuff that works well" under openbsd, & clearly this is linked to the policies of vendors on disclosure, and developer interest. now if i can only guess at equipment that was fully documented, & followed up with support for the developers, then how can i allow my $$ to reward vendors with those policies, that help you write better code that we enjoy using? if i follow you correctly - #1 there's a strict requirement for privacy for dmesg@ - fair enough. i've sent a line to nick@ to clarify this in the FAQ as i've not seen it mentioned elsewhere. #2 you don't want to suggest to people that they can _also_ send a dmesg somewhere else as this might confuse them, & you won't get bug reports. i would hope somebody able to file the bug reports you ask for is able to manage CC'ing a dmesg to somewhere else as well without getting lost on the way. if I can't easily identify "stuff that works well" then I end up spending 500$ on a mobo destined for dust-ware, instead of on your admittedly great OS. & since my first CD was a 2.8 one, i'm loath to waste my money on junk kit that doesn't run well on openbsd. the http://www.openbsd.org/i386.html page doesn't include any info on motherboards, although it does cover the peripheral side pretty well. i'd be happy enough with a few notes on mobos that work here - but where would i as a user go to get this information? if you think it's our business to send in updates for this page, i'll do so - but i think i am not a good person to tell when a mobo is fully supported, or if the h/w vendor was helpful. if you stick to refusing #2, well, as always, it's your OS, & your call as developers. but i think that you are reducing your support base if there is no reference point for "stuff that works well". a+ scorch
Re: is there [EMAIL PROTECTED] archive?
Theo de Raadt wrote: i'm looking for new mobos (both embedded & "normal") & wondered if there's any way to search through sumbitted [EMAIL PROTECTED] (you do all send in your dmesg don't you?) to see what people ran into previously. gmane & marc have proved reasonably light on Sorry, but I have thought about this and do not plan to change our policy . not asking you to :-) it's a good reason. i'll send something to Nick for the FAQ. the only thing i found was http://www.nycbug.org/?NAV=dmesgd;f_bsd=OpenBSD which was not extensive enough - but a nice interface! And they will NEVER receive as many dmesg's as we do, because our we promise privacy... There's no middle ground. i & many others would be happy to have a public dmesg. if nycbug have a mail-accessible interface, & are happy to share, could we add a note to either afterboot or FAQ to point people there to upload one for reference? i don't see why there shouldn't be a choice for something so useful. a+ scorch out of the frying pan & into the fire
Re: is there [EMAIL PROTECTED] archive?
On Sat, Feb 17, 2007 at 09:35:19AM +0100, Dunceor wrote: > Well it was just an idea, maybe i'll just hack together a online dmesg > tool and let the people who wants to send it be able to send it. Or just use the one at nycbug[1], which already has dmesgs, is already coded up, and has a nice interface. The more dmesgs in one place, the better. Another alternative for the project would be to have public-dmesg@ in addition to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Everything sent to public-dmesg@ would get processed the same as dmesg@, plus it would be made available publicly. dmesg@ would be the same as always... [1] http://www.nycbug.org/?NAV=dmesgd -- Darrin Chandler | Phoenix BSD Users Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://bsd.phoenix.az.us/ http://www.stilyagin.com/darrin/ |
Re: is there [EMAIL PROTECTED] archive?
On 2/17/07, Otto Moerbeek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Sat, 17 Feb 2007, Dunceor wrote: > > The dmesgs submitted to [EMAIL PROTECTED] are not publicly accessible. > > At some point in time this was discussed, but we can't do that, since > > we never told people that they would be published. So they remain > > accessible to developers only. They are consulted very often, so keep > > them coming in! > > > > -Otto > > > > > > It's understandable that old dmesg can't be shown but isn't it > possible to start on a new archive and inform user that all dmesg they > will send in from this point will be accesible online for everybody? I > have also thought the idea to have it public before and it would be > great. > > Then the old archive could still be used by dev's but a new archive > could easily be built up. On the other hand, we'd hate it (and the project would suffer) if people would become reluctant to send in their dmesg. Publishing dmesgs could mean less dmesgs would be submitted. -Otto Sorry, only sent private... If that would be the case, yes then there is no reason for it. But I don't see the reason why people would be more reluctant to send in their dmesg? It does not provide any private information. Well it was just an idea, maybe i'll just hack together a online dmesg tool and let the people who wants to send it be able to send it. BR Dunceor
Re: is there [EMAIL PROTECTED] archive?
On Sat, 17 Feb 2007, Dunceor wrote: > > The dmesgs submitted to [EMAIL PROTECTED] are not publicly accessible. > > At some point in time this was discussed, but we can't do that, since > > we never told people that they would be published. So they remain > > accessible to developers only. They are consulted very often, so keep > > them coming in! > > > > -Otto > > > > > > It's understandable that old dmesg can't be shown but isn't it > possible to start on a new archive and inform user that all dmesg they > will send in from this point will be accesible online for everybody? I > have also thought the idea to have it public before and it would be > great. > > Then the old archive could still be used by dev's but a new archive > could easily be built up. On the other hand, we'd hate it (and the project would suffer) if people would become reluctant to send in their dmesg. Publishing dmesgs could mean less dmesgs would be submitted. -Otto
Re: is there [EMAIL PROTECTED] archive?
On 2/17/07, Otto Moerbeek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Sat, 17 Feb 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > i'm looking for new mobos (both embedded & "normal") & wondered if there's any > way to search through sumbitted [EMAIL PROTECTED] (you do all send in your > dmesg don't you?) to see what people ran into previously. gmane & marc have > proved reasonably light on > > the only thing i found was http://www.nycbug.org/?NAV=dmesgd;f_bsd=OpenBSD > which was not extensive enough - but a nice interface! The dmesgs submitted to [EMAIL PROTECTED] are not publicly accessible. At some point in time this was discussed, but we can't do that, since we never told people that they would be published. So they remain accessible to developers only. They are consulted very often, so keep them coming in! -Otto It's understandable that old dmesg can't be shown but isn't it possible to start on a new archive and inform user that all dmesg they will send in from this point will be accesible online for everybody? I have also thought the idea to have it public before and it would be great. Then the old archive could still be used by dev's but a new archive could easily be built up. Just an idea. Thanks. BR Dunceor
Re: is there [EMAIL PROTECTED] archive?
On Sat, 17 Feb 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > i'm looking for new mobos (both embedded & "normal") & wondered if there's any > way to search through sumbitted [EMAIL PROTECTED] (you do all send in your > dmesg don't you?) to see what people ran into previously. gmane & marc have > proved reasonably light on > > the only thing i found was http://www.nycbug.org/?NAV=dmesgd;f_bsd=OpenBSD > which was not extensive enough - but a nice interface! The dmesgs submitted to [EMAIL PROTECTED] are not publicly accessible. At some point in time this was discussed, but we can't do that, since we never told people that they would be published. So they remain accessible to developers only. They are consulted very often, so keep them coming in! -Otto
is there [EMAIL PROTECTED] archive?
i'm looking for new mobos (both embedded & "normal") & wondered if there's any way to search through sumbitted [EMAIL PROTECTED] (you do all send in your dmesg don't you?) to see what people ran into previously. gmane & marc have proved reasonably light on the only thing i found was http://www.nycbug.org/?NAV=dmesgd;f_bsd=OpenBSD which was not extensive enough - but a nice interface! a+ scorch
