Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
On Sat, 16 Mar 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] To make things thing even more complicated I agree the need of a name with a sounding image, which will help mod_perl to grow into corporate computing (our future jobs). Recently I had a discussion with a Java programmer, who said that mod_perl is a try to save the obsolete language Perl. His argument was that only Java programmers are searched, especially here in Europe. So I see three requirements: - Having a name and logo which tells the truth, it's Perl and it was good. - The name should defer to Perl, should be it's own brand. - The sounding must be stronger then API Please go back to the marketing people and tell them to smoke somewhere else. o) mod_perl is the perl apache module. Apache modules are called mod_foo.c. o) It is just an interface to the Apache API. o) We've had this discussion several times before; I even had to check the year on the postings to be sure that I was not replying to an old thread. Please stop. - ask -- ask bjoern hansen, http://ask.netcetera.dk/ !try; do(); more than a billion impressions per week, http://valueclick.com
RE: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
:: I actually like the logo without the underscore. I don't :: think an underscore is very collaborative with art. The _ :: has always been irritating me a little. I don't see any reason why the underscore can't be incorporated discreetly. I had an idea that we could have the dp together (like in the new logo) with a small underscore directly beneath them. :: I know that there is history and nostalgia involved here but :: dropping an underscore at least in the logo is a nice :: evolution IMHO. The whole mod_ just happens to be the :: original Apache naming convention for modules, I believe, :: and let's not forget that the Apache folks never thought :: they would get the kind of success they have. Given the :: choice, I don't think they would have stuck with this kind :: of naming convention. This doesn't matter. The simple fact is, the name is mod_perl. It's established, known and the author has stated quite clearly that it will not change. :: The underscore really belongs to the C/C++ language and :: isn't really so much of a standard in Perl. True, Perl, :: Apache and mod_perl are all children of C/C++ but they :: should have some independence - they are in their :: adolescence now (if not even adults). If the underscore belongs anywhere, then it also belongs in Perl. Jonathan M. Hollin - WYPUG Co-ordinator West Yorkshire Perl User Group http://wypug.pm.org/ -- Temporarily off-line http://wypug.digital-word.com/
RE: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
:: I agree here. But then, TMTOWTDI is a big part of Perl :: culture. I suggest a democratic solution: present the logo :: and the favorite logo-based button as the logo and button. :: Then, also present a page which has some alternate buttons :: on it, including the two winners of the present contest. :: Make the page with the official logo and button easy to find :: so users will see it first. But an important part of any product is its brand. I personally believe that the logo/button/banner should be uniform throughout, with one font and one colour scheme. One area where we do have creative license is with banners - providing that the recognised mod_perl logo still features within. :: Since there was a landslide winner I would say there is :: probably no need for alternate logos although it may be :: interesting for historical reasons (the Google logo archives :: do it the right way, in my opinion: :: http://www.google.com/stickers.html). The logos at http://beverley2.digital-word.com/mod_perl/ will remain online forever for historical/nostalgic purposes. :: DRI really like the :: new logo, and in fact I voted for it. However, I :: DRjust realized that the logo uses modperl, whereas :: mod_perl's name :: DRis mod_perl, with the underscore. Does anyone else see :: this as a :: DRproblem? :: :: BMIt's a graphic design so I don't see that it needs to follow the :: BMApache module naming convention exactly... It's a design -- it :: BMdoesn't have to be accurate to the name. :: :: I agree with both these statements. I think the issue isn't :: that the design must follow the name, but that users often :: get confused between the two, and if the design doesn't :: follow the name, that confusion will certainly be :: exacerbated. Of course, this is probably not a big problem :: as long as the conventional term is used in the :: documentation and website and as long as modperl on Google :: leads to the mod_perl site. I think the logo should feature an underscore, however it's used. We are promoting a brand, a product... its name needs to be consistent wherever it's used - how else will we get pointy-haired bosses to recognise it? :: I might also point out that any mod_perl hostnames come out :: as modperl (since underscores are not allowed in hostnames) :: and that modperl is often used as a directory name even :: though underscores ARE allowed in filenames. I don't think that's relevant at all. People name their files and directories in whatever way suits them. And hostnames, well that's just a convention we can do nothing about and, thus, a non-issue. Jonathan M. Hollin - WYPUG Co-ordinator West Yorkshire Perl User Group http://wypug.pm.org/ -- Temporarily off-line http://wypug.digital-word.com/
RE: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
:: A thought - what about putting the suggestion of an :: underscore by putting bars underneath the d and p of :: modperl? Just a suggestion to Michael as presumably he is :: revisting the design for the buttons. I had a similar idea - a single bar under the dp yet keeping the dp together. Jonathan M. Hollin - WYPUG Co-ordinator West Yorkshire Perl User Group http://wypug.pm.org/ -- Temporarily off-line http://wypug.digital-word.com/
RE: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
Could you make it flaming? ;) -Original Message- From: Matt Sergeant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 12:31 PM To: Jonathan M. Hollin Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in... OK, here's my attempt at SVGing the logo. Works in Adobe's SVG viewer (Linux and Windows). I'll work on animating it next (making the cog spin). -- !-- Matt -- :-Get a smart net/:-
Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
Mark Fowler wrote: On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Jonathan M. Hollin wrote: However, I request your comments on this idea: should we have just one button (helping to develop a distinct identity for mod_perl) or should we have several (for choice)? It's up to you... I think that we need one theme of buttons, to ensure consistent branding. As per my comments when I voted stated, I'd love to see some buttons/logos based on the winning logo. In particular: - A square button that's just made up of the square cog logo - A square button that's just made up of a grey m and a blue p - A small rectangle version of the words modperl without the cog ...you get the idea, variations around a central design Also, we could do with both a monochrome and a black and white version of the logo (for print.) Is the logo available in a vector file format so that we can easily make scaled copies of it? Or are we restricted to the pixel banners that currently exist? Later. Mark. -- s'' Mark Fowler London.pm Bath.pm http://www.twoshortplanks.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ';use Term'Cap;$t=Tgetent Term'Cap{};print$t-Tputs(cl);for$w(split/ +/ ){for(0..30){$|=print$t-Tgoto(cm,$_,$y). $w;select$k,$k,$k,.03}$y+=2} I definitely agree with this. I'd like to see some more colour variations (maybe just background colours even) to allow it to fit into a site's design better. Jonathan asked whether we should have just one button, or several. I'd say just one theme, with several variations as mentioned above. Others have suggested several buttons and I'm assuming they mean with differing themes. I'm against that, as the point of a logo is to reinforce the branding of mod_perl. Of course, if people don't want to use this theme, they won't. That's fine. That's no worse than the current situation. Finally, I think the mod_perl/modperl/ModPerl/Mod_perl thing is a non-issue. We all know what is being talked about, right? It's nowhere near as bad as the .gif hard 'G' or soft 'G' or the vi V.I. versus 'vie' problems. Steve -- Steve Piner Web Applications Developer Marketview Limited http://www.marketview.co.nz
Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
On Mon, 18 Mar 2002, Steve Piner wrote: I definitely agree with this. I'd like to see some more colour variations (maybe just background colours even) to allow it to fit into a site's design better. Jonathan asked whether we should have just one button, or several. I'd say just one theme, with several variations as mentioned above. This is dead easy to do with the SVG version. Feel free to hack around with it. -- !-- Matt -- :-Get a smart net/:-
Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
DRI really like the new logo, and in fact I voted for it. However, I just DRrealized that the logo uses modperl, whereas mod_perl's name is DRmod_perl, with the underscore. Does anyone else see this as a problem? BMIt's a graphic design so I don't see that it needs to follow the Apache BMmodule naming convention exactly... It's a design -- it doesn't have to BMbe accurate to the name. A thought - what about putting the suggestion of an underscore by putting bars underneath the d and p of modperl? Just a suggestion to Michael as presumably he is revisting the design for the buttons. J
Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
A thought - what about putting the suggestion of an underscore by putting bars underneath the d and p of modperl? Just a suggestion to Michael as presumably he is revisting the design for the buttons. This is a funny discussion. Although not my favorite Logo has been elected, I confirm the need of a uniform design over all logo representations! so why do we cling to mod_perl as a name? i suppose for the familiar historical reasons, it's a fond term of endearment to us. but it would be more descriptive to call it The Apache perl API or Apache-Embedded perl, would it not? it behooves us to ride along on Apache's name-recognition doesn't it? To make things thing even more complicated I agree the need of a name with a sounding image, which will help mod_perl to grow into corporate computing (our future jobs). Recently I had a discussion with a Java programmer, who said that mod_perl is a try to save the obsolete language Perl. His argument was that only Java programmers are searched, especially here in Europe. So I see three requirements: - Having a name and logo which tells the truth, it's Perl and it was good. - The name should defer to Perl, should be it's own brand. - The sounding must be stronger then API putting bars underneath the d and p of modperl? Just a suggestion First I liked the idea 'DP' oder 'dPerl'. On the other hand we have the A, which stands for Apache, Application ... A is first, is best. So I came to aPerl or Parl 'Practical Application R* Language'? On and on just some funny thoughts :-) BR Christian == beginn original == Date: Freitag, 15. März 2002, 11:03:59 Subject: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in... Fellow mod_perl hackers... It is with great pleasure that I am able to introduce you to the new mod_perl logo. So, without further ado, point your web-browsers at: http://beverley2.digital-word.com/mod_perl/winner/ The winning logo, designed by Michael Demers (mike [at] inteo.com), won by a very clear majority. Congratulations Mike, and thanks for a great effort! The new mod_perl button vote resulted in a tie between two designs: Juergen Spechts' (the existing button) and new design by Tyler Rorabaugh. Following a brief discussion with Stas (stas [at] stason.org), I think it might be a good idea to have several mod_perl buttons, the idea being that a designer can then choose a button that doesn't conflict with his/her design. However, I request your comments on this idea: should we have just one button (helping to develop a distinct identity for mod_perl) or should we have several (for choice)? It's up to you... Thank you to everyone who participated in this project. Kudos to the designers for their efforts. Thanks to Stas for his input and ideas, and Eric Cholet for the voting script. Jonathan M. Hollin - WYPUG Co-ordinator West Yorkshire Perl User Group http://wypug.pm.org/ -- Temporarily off-line http://wypug.digital-word.com/ === end original
Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Jonathan M. Hollin wrote: However, I request your comments on this idea: should we have just one button (helping to develop a distinct identity for mod_perl) or should we have several (for choice)? It's up to you... I think that we need one theme of buttons, to ensure consistent branding. As per my comments when I voted stated, I'd love to see some buttons/logos based on the winning logo. In particular: - A square button that's just made up of the square cog logo - A square button that's just made up of a grey m and a blue p - A small rectangle version of the words modperl without the cog ...you get the idea, variations around a central design Also, we could do with both a monochrome and a black and white version of the logo (for print.) Is the logo available in a vector file format so that we can easily make scaled copies of it? Or are we restricted to the pixel banners that currently exist? Later. Mark. -- s'' Mark Fowler London.pm Bath.pm http://www.twoshortplanks.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ';use Term'Cap;$t=Tgetent Term'Cap{};print$t-Tputs(cl);for$w(split/ +/ ){for(0..30){$|=print$t-Tgoto(cm,$_,$y). $w;select$k,$k,$k,.03}$y+=2}
Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
In article 001401c1cc08$bab4f2b0$b1a1a8c2@orpheus, Jonathan M. Hollin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, I request your comments on this idea... Was there a button in the same style as the winning logo? Could Michael be persuaded to create one if not? I'm inclined to think a new logo is little use if you're not consistent with the imagery it uses. Tying a button design into that imagery is, IMO, essential. All the best, Andrew. -- perl -MLWP::Simple -e 'getprint(http://www.article7.co.uk/res/japh.txt;);'
RE: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
:: I think that we need one theme of buttons, to ensure :: consistent branding. As per my comments when I voted :: stated, I'd love to see some buttons/logos based on the :: winning logo. In particular: :: :: - A square button that's just made up of the square cog logo :: - A square button that's just made up of a grey m and a blue p :: - A small rectangle version of the words modperl without the cog :: :: ...you get the idea, variations around a central design :: :: Also, we could do with both a monochrome and a black and :: white version of :: the logo (for print.) Personally, I agree. I'll forward your email on to Michael and we'll see how he responds. :: Is the logo available in a vector file format so that we can :: easily make :: scaled copies of it? Or are we restricted to the pixel banners that :: currently exist? All I have is non-vector JPEG. Again, I'll ask Michael. Jonathan M. Hollin - WYPUG Co-ordinator West Yorkshire Perl User Group http://wypug.pm.org/ -- Temporarily off-line http://wypug.digital-word.com/
RE: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
:: Was there a button in the same style as the winning logo? :: Could Michael be persuaded to create one if not? :: :: I'm inclined to think a new logo is little use if you're not :: consistent with the imagery it uses. Tying a button design :: into that imagery is, IMO, essential. I will forward your email on to Michael (who designed the winning logo). Jonathan M. Hollin - WYPUG Co-ordinator West Yorkshire Perl User Group http://wypug.pm.org/ -- Temporarily off-line http://wypug.digital-word.com/
RE: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Jonathan M. Hollin wrote: :: Is the logo available in a vector file format so that we can :: easily make :: scaled copies of it? Or are we restricted to the pixel banners that :: currently exist? All I have is non-vector JPEG. Again, I'll ask Michael. If we can find out what the font is, I'd enjoy trying to do an SVG version (I just bought an SVG book, so I'm enjoying playing). -- !-- Matt -- :-Get a smart net/:-
Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
Hi ( 02.03.15 10:03 - ) Jonathan M. Hollin: However, I request your comments on this idea: should we have just one button (helping to develop a distinct identity for mod_perl) or should we have several (for choice)? It's up to you... TMTOWTDI, of course- multiple buttons! -- \js scale transparent e-tailers
RE: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
:: Was there a button in the same style as the winning logo? :: Could Michael be persuaded to create one if not? :: :: I'm inclined to think a new logo is little use if you're not :: consistent with the imagery it uses. Tying a button design :: into that imagery is, IMO, essential. Michael Demers (the designer) will submit a few buttons, to match his logo design, in the near future. Jonathan M. Hollin - WYPUG Co-ordinator West Yorkshire Perl User Group http://wypug.pm.org/ -- Temporarily off-line http://wypug.digital-word.com/
RE: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
I think buttons based on the new logo are the way to go. -Original Message- From: Jonathan M. Hollin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 9:17 AM To: 'Andrew Green'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in... :: Was there a button in the same style as the winning logo? :: Could Michael be persuaded to create one if not? :: :: I'm inclined to think a new logo is little use if you're not :: consistent with the imagery it uses. Tying a button design :: into that imagery is, IMO, essential. Michael Demers (the designer) will submit a few buttons, to match his logo design, in the near future. Jonathan M. Hollin - WYPUG Co-ordinator West Yorkshire Perl User Group http://wypug.pm.org/ -- Temporarily off-line http://wypug.digital-word.com/
Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
All, I really like the new logo, and in fact I voted for it. However, I just realized that the logo uses modperl, whereas mod_perl's name is mod_perl, with the underscore. Does anyone else see this as a problem? I've always been annoyed at how often the spelling gets modified, and it seems that the logo as it is now would add to the confusion. Am I just picking nits? -Dave David Ranney Senior Web Applications Developer e-Perception, Inc. (909) 587-8773
Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
David Ranney wrote: All, I really like the new logo, and in fact I voted for it. However, I just realized that the logo uses modperl, whereas mod_perl's name is mod_perl, with the underscore. Does anyone else see this as a problem? I've always been annoyed at how often the spelling gets modified, and it seems that the logo as it is now would add to the confusion. Am I just picking nits? no, I'd agree here. it's mod_perl, not Mod_perl, not Mod_Perl, not modperl... --Geoff
Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
Hi there, On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, David Ranney wrote: I really like the new logo, and in fact I voted for it. However, I just realized that the logo uses modperl, whereas mod_perl's name is mod_perl, with the underscore. Does anyone else see this as a problem? I've always been annoyed at how often the spelling gets modified, and it seems that the logo as it is now would add to the confusion. Am I just picking nits? You are quite right. It's definitely not picking nits, it's important. 73, Ged.
Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
At 10:46 PM 3/15/2002, John Saylor wrote: Hi ( 02.03.15 10:03 - ) Jonathan M. Hollin: However, I request your comments on this idea: should we have just one button (helping to develop a distinct identity for mod_perl) or should we have several (for choice)? It's up to you... TMTOWTDI, of course- multiple buttons! Those of us who have seen the movie Office Space know these as Flair. At least 14 are mandatory! :)
RE: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
:: I really like the new logo, and in fact I voted for it. :: However, I just realized that the logo uses modperl, :: whereas mod_perl's name is mod_perl, with the underscore. :: Does anyone else see this as a problem? I've always been :: annoyed at how often the spelling gets modified, and it :: seems that the logo as it is now would add to the confusion. :: Am I just picking nits? This has been a addressed. A cleaned-up logo will be appearing shortly. As will a vector-based version (so we can get t-shirts printed :-) )... Jonathan M. Hollin - WYPUG Co-ordinator West Yorkshire Perl User Group http://wypug.pm.org/ -- Temporarily off-line http://wypug.digital-word.com/
Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
Jonathan M. Hollin wrote: Fellow mod_perl hackers... It is with great pleasure that I am able to introduce you to the new mod_perl logo. So, without further ado, point your web-browsers at: http://beverley2.digital-word.com/mod_perl/winner/ The winning logo, designed by Michael Demers (mike [at] inteo.com), won by a very clear majority. Congratulations Mike, and thanks for a great effort! I like it. I voted for a different one, but I like this one the best. I must have overlooked it when voting. However, I request your comments on this idea: should we have just one button (helping to develop a distinct identity for mod_perl) or should we have several (for choice)? It's up to you... A single button that matches the logo will be simplier, and more distinct. Too many choices is making it harder for the newcomers. Wim
Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
The underscore really belongs to the C/C++ language and isn't really so much of a standard in Perl. Not true. From perlstyle: While short identifiers like $gotit are probably ok, use underscores to separate words. It is generally easier to read $var_names_like_this than $VarNamesLikeThis, especially for non-native speakers of English. It's also a simple rule that works consistently with VAR_NAMES_LIKE_THIS. --Ade.
Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
At 04:33 PM 03/15/02 -0500, Georgy Vladimirov wrote: I actually like the logo without the underscore. I don't think an underscore is very collaborative with art. The _ has always been irritating me a little. I know that there is history and nostalgia involved here but dropping an underscore at least in the logo is a nice evolution IMHO. I also agree with this, and is one of the reasons (I think) I voted for that design. It's a graphic design so I don't see that it needs to follow the Apache module naming convention exactly. Nor perl identifier names, either. Many of the designs offered didn't use the underscore as well. And the design that won didn't use one. It's a design -- it doesn't have to be accurate to the name. Besides, if it changes does it mean that the winning design received no votes? ;) -- Bill Moseley mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...
Hello, WKA single button that matches the logo will be simplier, and more WKdistinct. Too many choices is making it harder for the newcomers. I agree here. But then, TMTOWTDI is a big part of Perl culture. I suggest a democratic solution: present the logo and the favorite logo-based button as the logo and button. Then, also present a page which has some alternate buttons on it, including the two winners of the present contest. Make the page with the official logo and button easy to find so users will see it first. Since there was a landslide winner I would say there is probably no need for alternate logos although it may be interesting for historical reasons (the Google logo archives do it the right way, in my opinion: http://www.google.com/stickers.html). DRI really like the new logo, and in fact I voted for it. However, I just DRrealized that the logo uses modperl, whereas mod_perl's name is DRmod_perl, with the underscore. Does anyone else see this as a problem? BMIt's a graphic design so I don't see that it needs to follow the Apache BMmodule naming convention exactly... It's a design -- it doesn't have to BMbe accurate to the name. I agree with both these statements. I think the issue isn't that the design must follow the name, but that users often get confused between the two, and if the design doesn't follow the name, that confusion will certainly be exacerbated. Of course, this is probably not a big problem as long as the conventional term is used in the documentation and website and as long as modperl on Google leads to the mod_perl site. I might also point out that any mod_perl hostnames come out as modperl (since underscores are not allowed in hostnames) and that modperl is often used as a directory name even though underscores ARE allowed in filenames. Humbly, Andrew -- Andrew Ho http://www.tellme.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Engineer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice 650-930-9062 Tellme Networks, Inc. 1-800-555-TELLFax 650-930-9101 --
What's in a name? (was: Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New mod_perl logo - results now in...)
Georgy Vladimirov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I actually like the logo without the underscore. I don't think an underscore is very collaborative with art. The _ has always been irritating me a little. I know that there is history and nostalgia involved here but dropping an underscore at least in the logo is a nice evolution IMHO. The whole mod_ just happens to be the original Apache naming convention i agree. mod_perl looks like more like a variable name than a technology, much less a *brand*. it has a certain coolness factor all it's own, but the coolness is lost on anyone who isn't a programmer, or more specifically, a mod_perl programmer! it just inspires more questions than answers. i cannot tell you how many times i've told someone i was a mod_perl programmer and then watched as the eyes of my prospective employer glazed over as they apparently thought, a what programmer? is that like a computer programmer? okay maybe i wouldn't have been happy working for those folks anyway, but sometimes you'd be happy working for any folks and *those* are the times we wish mod_perl had a glossier finish, more brand recognition, maybe some buzz in some business magazines and, you know, the fame that it deserves. i'm sure that many business executives who have very immediate problems that mod_perl (and a mod_perl programmer) could easily solve read (what little there is) in the press about mod_perl and wonder, how does one pronounce this? mod-underscore-perl? what does *mod* mean? if it was an acronym they could at least investigate what the letters stood for, and then look up those words. but mod_ just seems to be whimsically short for... --something. modified perl? modern perl? is it pronounced moad maybe? is it modal? it's an apache thing? well, why didn't you *say* so? (apache gets a pretty good amount of buzz, even out there in the non-programmer world, for an open-source technology). some other webserver-specific language API names are easier to fathom. some are even easier to pronounce. ISAPI is easily spoken and easy to fathom (once one knows what the letters stand for) if not so easy to afford. NSAPI is similarly fathomable. a CEO can even find out what CGI is, without having to embarrass themselves by asking a geek. so why do we cling to mod_perl as a name? i suppose for the familiar historical reasons, it's a fond term of endearment to us. but it would be more descriptive to call it The Apache perl API or Apache-Embedded perl, would it not? it behooves us to ride along on Apache's name-recognition doesn't it? mod_perl, as a name simply does not do justice to the most powerfule and popular programming language on Earth, embedded into the most powerful and popular webserver on Earth, does it? no, of course not. so i say we ditch the new logo (though i did vote for it and do like it a lot, sans_underscore and all) and propose that we change the name summarily and forthwith TO: (drum roll, please...) The Apache-perl API (or tApAPI for short) it's pronounceable, alliterative, memorable and hey, it almost rhymes with Apache! ok, and slap-happy. well either that or Grape Apey, but let's not go there. what more could anyone want in a name? -dave