Re: OT: Re: ApacheCon Dublin Cancelled?
(I can speak for ORA :-) Gunther wrote: > Since I didn't know the area and don't have a travel agent I trust > to really know the hotel geography relative to the conference, I > just reached out of my ass and paid the high cost of being in THE > conference hotel. Of course, I do prefer to be at the conference > hotel because it's more fun to be close to the action, it would have > been nice to have been given a choice. When we book a venue for a conference, the hotel expects our attendees to book a certain number of rooms for a certain number of nights. If our attendees don't meet that number, we end up paying through the nose (or more painful orifices). That's the main reason we list only one hotel on the web page. I've posted (and will attach again) some information on cheap nearby hotels for anyone who's still thinking of coming. The travel agent we recommend can also find you cheap hotel rooms. Randal wrote: > Yeah, this is a problem with this particular site. At least last > year, we were in the heart of Monterey, and there were many things > close-by for events that didn't involve ponying up to the powers that > be (such as the killer Stonehenge party). In many ways, attempting to hold an event *without* ponying up to the powers that be is freeloading. We lose money putting on the conference that gathers together the people who would attend your publicity event (a.k.a. party), and you don't want to pay us for that? Sounds very cheap to me. Conference organizers offer many opportunities for sponsorship, including on-site parties. Yes, it's a bummer that the hotel isn't within walking distance of stores and bars and restaurants for socializing. But we will be running shuttle busses to downtown areas at night (see http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2001/pub/10/see_do.html for more information). Nat Property Name:San Diego Bay View Thriftlodge Property Address: 1943 Pacific Highway San Diego, California, United States, 92101 Property Phone Number: 619-232-7551 Reservation Phone: 1-800-578-7878 The ThriftLodge is 1.8 miles from the Sheraton Less than the length of the airport runway in the picture. Easily walkable in 30-40 minutes and even more easily bike-able. Or, with the savings one realizes from lodging, one could rent a car. (The airport car rental agencies are, ironically, about halfway between the ThriftLodge and the Sheraton, along the walking path.) A car would cost $20-30 per day -- far less than the difference in hotel rates. The AAA rate is $40.50 per night for a non-smoking room with a queen bed. There's also an EconoLodge -- same company -- within two blocks. It's slightly more (not a lot more) per night and has a few more amenities. (See http://www.travelodge.com/ctg/cgi-bin/Travelodge.) Finally, there's a Best Western that's $80-90 per night (if you get a discount) in the other direction on the west side of the harbor. The footpath goes there too, though it's a longer walk.
Re: OT: Re: ApacheCon Dublin Cancelled?
Matt Sergeant writes: > I guess TPC::Hawaii is out then :-) Don't think I haven't argued for it! Nat
Re: OT: Re: ApacheCon Dublin Cancelled?
At 10:46 AM 7/16/2001 -0600, you wrote: >Matt Sergeant writes: > > I doubt it's the last one we'll see fall... I suspect TPC will be a > > shadow of its former self... :( > >for four years arguing that it should be cheaper. If you feel that >there'd be more attendees at a lower price, then I suggest you tell >that to every O'Reilly conferences person you see at TPC (except for >me :-) > >Are there any requests other than price for next year? What would you >like to see? What could you do without? I'd like to know more about suggestions to make these suggestions? Is it really as simple as me going to another O'Reilly person or filling out an apres-conference survey form and saying "More attendees for less money". Or is there anything more concrete that would help it more? I am just afraid that simply stating this, I would not be taken seriously because it seems so obvious. But how do you get more attendees? Will they definitely come if it is less money? And if so, how much less? I am not a marketing person, so I am really bad at figuring out how to map this concretely, but I am not sure that there is an obvious price point where someone would attend or not attend. For example, let's say the conference costs $1000 and 1000 attendees attend? At that point it is $1,000,000 to hold the conference. And let's just say that's what you need to pull it off. But if you lower the cost by 10% to $900, then you've lost $100,000. So you need at least another 120 or so attendees to make up the cost. But will you get more attendees? Although you lowered the price by 10%, the hotel and the plane remain a fixed cost. Let's say it is $1000 for the hotel and $500 for the plane? Then a 10% drop a $1000 conference fee becomes less than a 5% drop in the overall cost and no more attendees may actually come. Anyway, here are some suggestions I would personally have to make it easier to attend conferences like this. Although perhaps they have already been thought about in the past and discarded for good reasons by people who know more about conference organization than I do... :) Note that some ideas are more radical than others and reflect that I am just shooting some ideas out. 1) More Student Discount (If none already) I don't know if this is currently the case, but I think people who are true full-time students should be allowed to attend at a significantly reduced cost. Part of open source and Perl advocacy is getting the young generation hyped so that they will want to continue to carry the torch. My gut feeling is that full-time students don't tend to attend these expensive conferences anyway because it's their parent's that they would have to convince. So offering them a low enough ticket cost to basically cover expenses will still contribute to the bottom line yet get a new round of attendees. And next year they may be out of school with a full time job that would be willing to pay for them. So it primes a set of attendees to continue attending. 2) I found the hotel costs really high. A good chunk of the entire cost of going to the conference is the hotel. I think Nat posted on this list, alternatives which was great. But I actually wish I knew the alternatives before I had signed up. I emailed someone directly in the beginning asking for alternatives because I come from Singapore where the currency is much less than your US currency, but did not get any alternatives. Since I didn't know the area and don't have a travel agent I trust to really know the hotel geography relative to the conference, I just reached out of my ass and paid the high cost of being in THE conference hotel. Of course, I do prefer to be at the conference hotel because it's more fun to be close to the action, it would have been nice to have been given a choice. I know that you guys probably get a lot of discount from Sheraton by having them be the only hotel on the listed on the Web for the conference, but it isn't at all convenient for conference attendees. Why should each attendee manually call another travel agent to find out alternative hotel costs (and not all travel agents REALLY know the area well) individually when OReilly could be posting alternatives. After all, you guys actually walked around the area and scouted out for facilities and probably know what the hotel and conference situation is truly like better than many travel agents sitting in their big office buildings taking calls all day. I just think that if you could provide a hotel that is like 3/4 the price then you make the entire package (Hotel, Flight, Conference fee) that much more attractive WITHOUT lowering the cost of the conference itself. If sponsorship of the hotel is a problem, maybe they would be OK with a link at the bottom that says "Cheap People Click Here". And it would take you to a page that explains the true alternatives for the area if you can't afford to be in THE hotel. That would certainly h
Re: OT: Re: ApacheCon Dublin Cancelled?
At 11:31 AM 7/16/2001 -0700, Bill Moseley wrote: >At 10:46 AM 07/16/01 -0600, Nathan Torkington wrote: > >Are there any requests other than price for next year? What would you > >like to see? What could you do without? > >Well, this is more along the "price" issue that you don't want to hear about, >but I much prefer a single fee for everything instead of separate tutorial >and conference fees. I understand the scheduling hell, but I like the >flexibility to decide what to attend during the conference. What I attend >in the morning may influence what I attend in the afternoon. I am misunderstanding this perhaps. Don't you get this anyway by getting a slightly larger discount for taking the tutorial and the conference together? ie is that what you are asking for? To combine the fees so that it is cheaper? >And these days more and more people may find themselves like me, paying >their own way. I'm very disappointed that I had to cancel after adding >everything up. In today's economy it's perhaps true. In the economy of 2 years ago, it seems like a business would consider it a perk to send their developer to a conference because they were scrambling to keep their programmers anyway they could (conferences is one way if their organization won't allow a raise in salary). But now many programmers are fortunate to have a job. Although there are still pockets of companies willing to pay for conferences, it's probably quite lower. Well, at least if you want a cheap conference there is always YAPC. I would suspect the O'Reilly brand unfortunately probably prevents doing things that involve having a truly on-the-cheap conference. Of course, by cheap I don't mean "bad". Just a different way of handling a conference and a different vibe/level of coordination and # of talks etc... Later, Gunther
Re: OT: Re: ApacheCon Dublin Cancelled?
> > On 16 Jul 2001, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > > > > "Bill" == Bill Moseley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > Bill> Well, this is more along the "price" issue that you don't want > > Bill> to hear about, but I much prefer a single fee for everything > > Bill> instead of separate tutorial and conference fees. > > > > So you'd rather the overall price be increased, based on the average > > cost of attending a decent number of the tutorials? Wouldn't that be > > unfair to those that are attending *just* the conference? > > > > Bill> I understand the scheduling hell, but I like the flexibility to > > Bill> decide what to attend during the conference. What I attend in > > Bill> the morning may influence what I attend in the afternoon. > > > > The problem is materials. Since the tutorials hand out some > > significant paper, it's hard to decide how much repro to do in > > advance, unless you know in advance. Also, without enough advance > > signups, the tutorial speakers themselves need to get cancelled, since > > they (we :) are an actual hard cost with cutoff deadlines for > > cancellation. And, how big of a room should you have, if people can > > just wander in and out? > > Ah, and the paper issue is one reason why I never submit my materials in > advance. It's outrageous to be handing out paper booklets in this modern > age. That's something I'd like to see changed in the future: tutorial > materials on CD-ROM or Internet only. > True, but not everyone brings a laptop :-). With the cellular age coming on, though, I think within a year or two at the most it will be safe enough to assume everyone will have a portable internet connection (eg, Palm or whatever). But untill then, people might want to look at the material during the presentation - very impracticle if the material's only on CD-ROM... Issac
Re: OT: Re: ApacheCon Dublin Cancelled?
> "Bill" == Bill Moseley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Bill> Well, this is more along the "price" issue that you don't want Bill> to hear about, but I much prefer a single fee for everything Bill> instead of separate tutorial and conference fees. So you'd rather the overall price be increased, based on the average cost of attending a decent number of the tutorials? Wouldn't that be unfair to those that are attending *just* the conference? Bill> I understand the scheduling hell, but I like the flexibility to Bill> decide what to attend during the conference. What I attend in Bill> the morning may influence what I attend in the afternoon. The problem is materials. Since the tutorials hand out some significant paper, it's hard to decide how much repro to do in advance, unless you know in advance. Also, without enough advance signups, the tutorial speakers themselves need to get cancelled, since they (we :) are an actual hard cost with cutoff deadlines for cancellation. And, how big of a room should you have, if people can just wander in and out? A conference with casual tutorial signup or walk-in is a logistical nightmare for the organizers. Don't expect it to happen anytime soon on any professional conference *I* present at. :) -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/> Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
Re: OT: Re: ApacheCon Dublin Cancelled?
At 10:46 AM 07/16/01 -0600, Nathan Torkington wrote: >Are there any requests other than price for next year? What would you >like to see? What could you do without? Well, this is more along the "price" issue that you don't want to hear about, but I much prefer a single fee for everything instead of separate tutorial and conference fees. I understand the scheduling hell, but I like the flexibility to decide what to attend during the conference. What I attend in the morning may influence what I attend in the afternoon. And these days more and more people may find themselves like me, paying their own way. I'm very disappointed that I had to cancel after adding everything up. Bill Moseley mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Re: ApacheCon Dublin Cancelled?
Nathan Torkington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Are there any requests other than price for next year? Have it in London. -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Interim CTO, web server farms, technical strategy
Re: OT: Re: ApacheCon Dublin Cancelled?
Matt Sergeant writes: > I doubt it's the last one we'll see fall... I suspect TPC will be a > shadow of its former self... :( Despite my best efforts (zillions more tracks than last year, 200+ talks, five days instead of four, all in a tanking economy), there's going to be an OScon with TPC next year. They're arguing about the dates right now (June? Or September? June! September!) and I can announce them next week. We've talked about next year, and the basic story is that there'll be fewer tracks than this year, getting it back to a manageable level. I think we're going to keep it at 5 days. Attendance at this year's conference will be down from last year, but it's nowhere near the point where we'd say "that's it, we can't do this any more". I'm so looking forward to going back to last year's convention size. Organizing this year's convention (TPC+modperl+Apache+PHP+Zope+Python+ MySQL+PostgreSQL+Mozilla+Linux+OpenSource+Java+Tcl+EmergingTopics) was threatening my sanity--too many talks to keep straight, too many speakers to cancel at the last minute, too many different special interests pissed off for whatever reasons. Anyone have requests for next year? I know everyone wants a cheaper conference, but I've banged my head against a brick wall at O'Reilly for four years arguing that it should be cheaper. If you feel that there'd be more attendees at a lower price, then I suggest you tell that to every O'Reilly conferences person you see at TPC (except for me :-) Are there any requests other than price for next year? What would you like to see? What could you do without? Nat
Re: OT: Re: ApacheCon Dublin Cancelled?
On Mon, 16 Jul 2001, Gunther Birznieks wrote: > At 03:44 PM 7/15/2001 +0100, Matt Sergeant wrote: > >Looks like Camelot, the organisers of ApacheCon (and other conferences, > >such as XML Dev Con - a conference I've spoken at a number of times), are > >going out of business. Those of you who know the employees at Camelot will > > Odd, I got the letter for ApacheCon speakers talking about payment to > speakers which I would think you got as well. Yes I did, after I sent that mail to the mod_perl list. FWIW, I could see this coming since April, but hoped I would be wrong. Attendance at XML Dev Con was very very low, as was ApacheCon, and I wondered if Camelot could keep up their expansion (they seemed to have doubled in staff since a year prior) in the current economic climate. > >know they always went out of their way to help the speakers at various > >conferences, and I would venture to say they were one of the better > >organised conferences I've attended. Sad to see them go. > > I too am sad. I did not know the conference producers well, but I > personally thought the plane + hotel + conference fee paid to all speakers > EVEN 1 HOUR talk speakers was really generous. I can usually understand > paying those things for tutorial speakers, but giving all that for 1 hour > talk speakers was amazingly generous though. > > But I guess too generous. Anyway, lately conference attendence is down, so > naturally vendors don't want to spend a lot of money on advertising at a > conference, so naturally there's less money to pay for speakers, so > naturally less people want to attend with less speakers, etc > > I hope the downward trend doesn't continue with other good conferences. :( I doubt it's the last one we'll see fall... I suspect TPC will be a shadow of its former self... :( Ah well, at least a lot of people owe me a beer :-) -- /||** Founder and CTO ** ** http://axkit.com/ ** //||** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving ** // ||** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP ** // \\| // ** mod_perl news and resources: http://take23.org ** \\// //\\ // \\
