Re: modperl success story
Hey, aren't we decided to use the advocacy list for this kind of threads? You are funny folks, when you don't want us to discuss something here, you tell go talk about this somewhere else, so we did. Please follow your own suggestions. This current thread was split into 2, one discussed here and the other at the proper "advocacy" list! The subscribing info is: A new mailing list for mod_perl advocacy issues, discussions about site and etc. Subscribe by sending a mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] The list address is [EMAIL PROTECTED] The archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/advocacy%40perl.apache.org/ Thank you very much! ___ Stas Bekmanmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.stason.org/stas Perl,CGI,Apache,Linux,Web,Java,PC http://www.stason.org/stas/TULARC perl.apache.orgmodperl.sourcegarden.org perlmonth.comperl.org single o-> + single o-+ = singlesheavenhttp://www.singlesheaven.com
Re: modperl success story
On Fri, Jan 14, 2000 at 12:34:00PM -0800, Ed Phillips wrote: > > >The troll vanisheth! > > ha! > > Reminds me of the Zen story of an old fisherman in a boat on a lake in a heavy can't >see your hands fog. He bumps into another boat, and shouts at the other guy, "Look >where you're going would you! You almost knocked me over." He pulls up beside the >boat and is about to give the other guy a piece of his mind, but when he looks in the >other boat, he discovers that no one else is there. > > Flame trolls on mailing lists are virtual empty boats, whose only value is the >sometimes humorous apoplexy elicited in the old sea salts on the list. Wow, what a story. But poor man probably just didn't realize that this list is not for sucess stories sharing. But for problems discussion :) Andrei --
Re: modperl success story
On Fri, 14 Jan 2000, Barb and Tim wrote: > It could really enhance your integrity if you also > presented honest evaluations of the downsides of Perl. > The promotion of Perl on this site is so ubiquitous and > one sided, and Perl has such a bad reputation in many ways, > that somebody like me has a hard time swallowing the sunny > prognostications and finally diving in, unless I see > full honesty. The language itself is hard enough to swallow. > Just a suggestion. I would venture to suggest that the problems of mod_perl are as follows: - Non-trivial to build and install (judging by the number of questions here regarding problems in this area - not by personal experience). - Still some wierd bugs. - A number of special considerations have to be made when building your program, such as taking care of persistent variables, etc. - All of perl's irritations (and there are quite a few - like the definition of truth). - Documentation still isn't fantastic - although the guide has made great inroads into changing that, and the book is awsome. - Some modules are still a bit cryptic (e.g. some people expect things like Apache::Session to do everything for them, whereas it's really a session management toolkit). - mod_perl is still really in its infancy, and hasn't taken off as fast as other systems such as php and Zope. I think this is due to the complexity issues outlined above, and the fact that ISP's don't like mod_perl. - Oh yeah - and mod_perl uses lots of RAM. That's probably the main reason ISP's don't like it. -- Details: FastNet Software Ltd - XML, Perl, Databases. Tagline: High Performance Web Solutions Web Sites: http://come.to/fastnet http://sergeant.org Available for Consultancy, Contracts and Training.
Re: modperl success story
>The troll vanisheth! ha! Reminds me of the Zen story of an old fisherman in a boat on a lake in a heavy can't see your hands fog. He bumps into another boat, and shouts at the other guy, "Look where you're going would you! You almost knocked me over." He pulls up beside the boat and is about to give the other guy a piece of his mind, but when he looks in the other boat, he discovers that no one else is there. Flame trolls on mailing lists are virtual empty boats, whose only value is the sometimes humorous apoplexy elicited in the old sea salts on the list. Ed
Re: modperl success story
The troll vanisheth! - Transcript of session follows - ... while talking to mc5.law5.hotmail.com.: >>> RCPT To:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <<< 550 Requested action not taken:user account inactive 550 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... User unknown
Re: modperl success story
According to Barb and Tim: > It could really enhance your integrity if you also > presented honest evaluations of the downsides of Perl. Perl has two downsides. One is the start-up time for the program and mod_perl solves this for web pages. > The promotion of Perl on this site is so ubiquitous and > one sided, and Perl has such a bad reputation in many ways, > that somebody like me has a hard time swallowing the sunny > prognostications and finally diving in, unless I see > full honesty. The language itself is hard enough to swallow. > Just a suggestion. The other down side is that it is fast and easy to write working programs that are difficult for someone else to understand. That is, it accepts an individual's style instead of forcing something universal. I guess everyone here is willing to accept that tradeoff. Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: modperl success story
Barb and Tim wrote: > > It could really enhance your integrity if you also > presented honest evaluations of the downsides of Perl. WHy don't you start. -jwb
Re: modperl success story
Gunther's right, my apologies to all. I shall now disembowel myself with
my IBM flowcharting template if I can find it. (Joke, really, a joke,
not more sarcasm...).
Rgds.
Rod Butcher
Gunther Birznieks wrote:
>
> Sarcastic responses do not help, regardless of how you feel about the
> original poster's thesis.
>
> On Fri, 14 Jan 2000, Rod Butcher wrote:
>
> > So, present us all with a detailed analysis of all Perl's failings and
> > its bad reputation compaired the competition, so that we may see the
> > light and turn to the true path. Until then we'll all stagger along
> > happily in the darkness.
> > Even better, write your own language like Larry did and see how many
> > disciples you attract.
> > Rod Butcher
> >
> > Barb and Tim wrote:
> > >
> > > It could really enhance your integrity if you also
> > > presented honest evaluations of the downsides of Perl.
> > > The promotion of Perl on this site is so ubiquitous and
> > > one sided, and Perl has such a bad reputation in many ways,
> > > that somebody like me has a hard time swallowing the sunny
> > > prognostications and finally diving in, unless I see
> > > full honesty. The language itself is hard enough to swallow.
> > > Just a suggestion.
> >
> > --
> > Rod Butcher | "... I gaze at the beauty of the world,
> > Hyena Holdings Internet | its wonders and its miracles and out of
> > Programming | sheer joy I laugh even as the day laughs.
> > ("it's us or the vultures") | And then the people of the jungle say,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 'It is but the laughter of a hyena'".
> > |Kahlil Gibran.. The Wanderer
> >
--
Rod Butcher | "... I gaze at the beauty of the world,
Hyena Holdings Internet | its wonders and its miracles and out of
Programming | sheer joy I laugh even as the day laughs.
("it's us or the vultures") | And then the people of the jungle say,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | 'It is but the laughter of a hyena'".
|Kahlil Gibran.. The Wanderer
Re: modperl success story
Hi there, On Fri, 14 Jan 2000, Barb and Tim wrote: > honest evaluations of the downsides of Perl Thanks for the note, and welcome. I'm not sure the mod_perl list is quite the place for this as a topic, so you other list readers might want to hit `D' now. The list is primarily for discussions about the application of the Perl extensions to the Apache web sever. You seem to be having trouble with Perl itself, which you really need to get under your belt before you address the quite separate topic of Perl embedded in Apache. The mod_perl list is kind of a mish-mash of sub-topics leading on from there. > It could really enhance your integrity Hmmm. I don't know about integrity, but I have to say that I really wish I had taken the time to learn about Perl many years before I actually did. I do a lot of text processing in my work and AFAIK there is nothing that gets even close to Perl for concise expression and fast development of what I do. I use Perl by itself and Perl in Apache as well. One of my sites has over 25,000 products that can be ordered on line and I honestly don't know how I'd cope with it on my own without Perl. > The promotion of Perl on this site is so ubiquitous and one sided That may be true (not if you've read _all_ my posts:) but then it's hardly surprising either. People who don't like it or can't hack it usually just walk away. I came close myself, for different reasons. > Perl has such a bad reputation in many ways, I don't know what you mean. Bad reputation for what? If people are trying to use it for something it's not good at, then I can understand why they'd be unhappy with the results. If I need to do something that's better in C or assembler, then that's what I use. I've used Fortran since 1971, Assemblers since 1975, C since 1977, Pascal, Ada, RTL/2 (always my favourite), several shells, an assortment of DBase type things and a whole bunch of others not really worth mentioning. Although I've used Perl only for the last two years or so, for a quick hack I still tend to go for Perl first. The way you can mix and match bits of Perl and Unix is hard to beat. Er, you're not using Windows, are you? > The language itself is hard enough to swallow. Well, I agree that the _syntax_ may be a little odd. But the language itself really isn't very difficult to grasp. Coming after 25 years of C I found the trickiest bits were remembering the differences between C and Perl (sometimes remembering which language I was using at the time!) and coping with the fact that you've really only got three data types. For me one great thing about the language is the very powerful pattern matching and substitution, and the interpreter itself is by a very long way the best of any I've used. The warnings you get with `perl -w' and `use strict' far exceed any reasonable expectations and continue to amaze me with the mistakes they pick up. > full honesty I think you're getting honesty from the people on the list. Don't forget that some may be relatively inexperienced (and perhaps a little in awe of some of the high powered talent that lurks around here) but for the most part they like what they're doing and only occasionally tear all their hair out. Which you will see mentioned on the list... > somebody like me has a hard time swallowing the sunny > prognostications and finally diving in Well, don't swallow, just put a toe in the water. Nobody's forcing you. What kinds of things are you thinking of doing with Perl? 73, Ged.
Re: modperl success story
> It could really enhance your integrity if you also > presented honest evaluations of the downsides of Perl. > The promotion of Perl on this site is so ubiquitous and > one sided, and Perl has such a bad reputation in many ways, > that somebody like me has a hard time swallowing the sunny > prognostications and finally diving in, unless I see > full honesty. The language itself is hard enough to swallow. > Just a suggestion. You are not the first to say this, we've discussed this already, no need to do this again. Adam Pisoni has summarized this thread in his wonderful "Popular Perl Complaints and Myths" document. Please read it at: http://perl.apache.org/perl_myth.html Please move the thread to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Have a nice Perl :) ___ Stas Bekmanmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.stason.org/stas Perl,CGI,Apache,Linux,Web,Java,PC http://www.stason.org/stas/TULARC perl.apache.orgmodperl.sourcegarden.org perlmonth.comperl.org single o-> + single o-+ = singlesheavenhttp://www.singlesheaven.com
Re: modperl success story
So, present us all with a detailed analysis of all Perl's failings and
its bad reputation compaired the competition, so that we may see the
light and turn to the true path. Until then we'll all stagger along
happily in the darkness.
Even better, write your own language like Larry did and see how many
disciples you attract.
Rod Butcher
Barb and Tim wrote:
>
> It could really enhance your integrity if you also
> presented honest evaluations of the downsides of Perl.
> The promotion of Perl on this site is so ubiquitous and
> one sided, and Perl has such a bad reputation in many ways,
> that somebody like me has a hard time swallowing the sunny
> prognostications and finally diving in, unless I see
> full honesty. The language itself is hard enough to swallow.
> Just a suggestion.
--
Rod Butcher | "... I gaze at the beauty of the world,
Hyena Holdings Internet | its wonders and its miracles and out of
Programming | sheer joy I laugh even as the day laughs.
("it's us or the vultures") | And then the people of the jungle say,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | 'It is but the laughter of a hyena'".
|Kahlil Gibran.. The Wanderer
Re: modperl success story
On Fri, 14 Jan 2000, Barb and Tim wrote: > It could really enhance your integrity if you also > presented honest evaluations of the downsides of Perl. > The promotion of Perl on this site is so ubiquitous and > one sided, and Perl has such a bad reputation in many ways, > that somebody like me has a hard time swallowing the sunny > prognostications and finally diving in, unless I see > full honesty. The language itself is hard enough to swallow. This is not an advocacy group. Problems with mod_perl and (more rarely) perl (the standard imlementation) and Perl (the language as an abstract definition) do show up here, if you wait long enough. This group is for people who are trying to implement, use and improve mod_perl. I think you'll find that many of the people on the list have gone through some exhaustive searching BEFORE stumbling upon mod_perl. Many, if not most, have significant backgrounds in many other development (web and other) systems and languages. I like perl, Perl, and mod_perl. I think most of the people on this list do, as well. You're not likely to get a bunch of apologies for that. If you don't like something about any of the 3 parts, please try and help fix it. Or just find something else that you do like. Perhaps you'll find that other systems are better suited to what you do. Perhaps not, and you'll end up back here again. I'm sure that would be fine with anyone on the list. -- -- Tom Mornini -- InfoMania Printing and Prepress
Re: modperl success story
Barb and Tim wrote: > full honesty. The language itself is hard enough to swallow. How is Perl hard to swallow? Perl is so easy and flexible. Stephen
