[Mpls] Re: MPD: New smoking ban approach
I like it. It is already established in law that, if you suffer damage/have an accident on Smith's property, you can sue Smith for damages. This is why property owners carry such insurance. We have here a smoking-induced injury caused on the property, with the associated liability. Smoking bar owners could either 1) take all that liability on themselves, and get out of the business and out of the country before the law suits started, or 2) buy smoking liability insurance. Now, how much would that insurance cost per month? it would depend I imagine on sales, number of customers, ventilation verification, general age/health/class of the average customer, smoking mortality/sickness figures in the bar neighborhood, etc. If the damage done to the clientele/employees only amounts to $100 a month, and give the insurance co its usual 20-30% markup, that's only $120 to $130 per month. Easily made up in alcohol profits - especially if smoking it supposed to be so GOOD for profits. On the other hand, let us suppose that, given the cost of treating say lung cancer, and given say 3% of those who hung out in that bar fall ill and sue, the total damage is probably in the hundreds of thousands. If this high, the only way the bar can make money is option 1) above - excape to another country. Else we are asking that amount to be paid by the victims of cancer, so that bar owners can (they imagine) make more money. A third option arises: the bars could insist that the Big Tobacco companies pool their resources and buy the insurance for the smoking bars. No free insurance, no smokers in our bar, fewer customers for Big Tobacco in the future, smoking becomes even less fashionable, the Big tobacco families go on welfare or get an honest job. BT might come through. They would then FINALLY begin to pay for all the collateral damage of their actions - a very good thing. Let them make money, but make them pay for all the damage they cause as they make it. (I would really like to know how much a typical bar owner's property liability insurance would rise if smoking liability were added to it. Insurance gurus?) --David Shove Roseville On Sat, 12 Mar 2005, Steve Nelson wrote: > > Since the objections to a smoking ban seem to be a fear of loss of > profits over concern for employees health, I propose the following law > be enacted to preserve the freedom of choice for bar and private club > owners...and any other employer who wishes to allow smoking in their > business. The argument that people choose to work in smoking > establishments makes sense only in an economy where there is a plethora > of well-paying jobs and working in such establishments is truly a > choice. In today's economy, people are often forced to work where they > can find it not where they would like. > > "Any employer who wishes to allow his establishment to be a non-smoke > free environment takes on the liability of his employees health care in > relation to any health care problems related to or aggravated by tobacco > smoke. The burden of proof falls upon the owner of the establishment to > prove that the health problem was NOT caused by exposure at his place of > business. No employees shall be forced to sign waivers to this > provision prior to or during employment nor shall any such waivers be > deemed valid as related to smoking exposure. This burden shall not be > construed as license to disregard employees right to privacy. > Reasonable access to medical records and health history shall be > permitted but shall not rise to the level of harassment as defined by > law." > > Take issue with the wording any way you want but I think the gist of it is > clear. Since a preponderence of scientific evidence (including a study > showing that exposure to second hand smoke increases the risk of breast > cancer, the results of which were released the day bar owners asked the > courts to overturn the city of Minneapolis ordinance) shows that exposure to > second hand smoke causes many health related problems, bar and club owners > who wish to continue to profit by placing their employees at risk assume the > burden of that risk as well. And the employee does not have to prove that > their work exposure caused their problem to recover medical and other related > expenses from the employer. > > So let the discussion begin. > > Steven M Nelson > Willard Hay > http://citizenshipchronicles.blogspot.com/ > http://minutemenworldwide.blogspot.com/ > Get UP! Get OUT! & GET INVOLVED!!! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > MN-POLITICS-DISCUSS http://www.e-democracy.org/mn-politics/ is a CIVIL > discussion of Minnesota public issues and politics. > --- > +++ REMEMBER - Presidential politics is outside the scope of this list. > > --- > Don't like E-Democracy's rules? You have alternatives: > http://www.e-democracy.org/mninteract > > To receive dai
Re: [Mpls] New smoking ban approach
Steve Nelson writes: "Any employer who wishes to allow his establishment to be a non-smoke free environment takes on the liability of his employees health care in relation to any health care problems related to or aggravated by tobacco smoke. The burden of proof falls upon the owner of the establishment to prove that the health problem was NOT caused by exposure at his place of business. No employees shall be forced to sign waivers to this provision prior to or during employment nor shall any such waivers be deemed valid as related to smoking exposure. This burden shall not be construed as license to disregard employees right to privacy. Reasonable access to medical records and health history shall be permitted but shall not rise to the level of harassment as defined by law."< Real good Steve, but there might be another way. How about smoke bars being licensed to proven smokers and those bars only being allowed to hire those who can prove they presently smoke. Have customers required to sign an affidavit that they are indeed smokers to be allowed in the building. Heck, why force anyone to have to work in a smoke filled environment when they don't smoke. Have a building owned and operated , employing, and serving only smokers? If the government wants to make all that tax money off of smokers, which it has for more than fifty years, then make the government pay for the lung cancer from those taxes. If health care is too expensive then, lets slap a seven dollar a pack tax on it. A tax that is totally and only dedicated to health care for smokers. In that way the smokers pay for their own sins. Talk about hypocrisy, how much, (or better yet what percentage) of the tobacco settlement went to pay for health care or addiction prevention and treatment for tobacco addiction. My, My, My! Those politicians sometimes have sticker fingers than a snake oil salesman or some of the evangelical "Profits of the Lord" in our midst. I know the ban language is only political pandering in Minneapolis, but we might as well put some logic into it. I wonder if anyone but me sees the ridiculousness of Minneapolis banning smoking in bars while the Federal Government subsidizes the farmers who grow tobacco? Perhaps the City of Minneapolis CM's should also limit the depths of their own hypocrisy and stop licensing stores to sell cigarettes. Just remove any such licensed sales within the City Limits. Minneapolis has apparently decided it does not like tobacco, so why license the sale of it. It does not have to be illegal to posses tobacco, just do not allow the licensed sale of it. Starting to sound sort of like Marijuana don't you thin? So maybe when viewed as such a comparison a couple of our jay smoking CM's might start being more in favor of legal smoking. Minneapolis Police and Judges presently do not have the resources to catch or the will to put people in jail for smoking crack cocaine and crystal meth. Wouldn't it be funny if evil tobacco smokers were sentenced to stiffer sentences than those caught smoking crack or grass on 26th and Knox? Reality is constantly more laughable than most comedy acts. Well I better get some sleep, I feel a sermon coming on about "Equal Protection Under The Law" and tomorrow is Sunday! I certainly would not want to disappoint Brother Dave and company if the Spirit moves me. Jim the "Rev" Graham Ventura Village "The only time some people are not hypocrites is in their sleep.I try to remember this when awake."< REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] New smoking ban approach
Since the objections to a smoking ban seem to be a fear of loss of profits over concern for employees health, I propose the following law be enacted to preserve the freedom of choice for bar and private club owners...and any other employer who wishes to allow smoking in their business. The argument that people choose to work in smoking establishments makes sense only in an economy where there is a plethora of well-paying jobs and working in such establishments is truly a choice. In today's economy, people are often forced to work where they can find it not where they would like. "Any employer who wishes to allow his establishment to be a non-smoke free environment takes on the liability of his employees health care in relation to any health care problems related to or aggravated by tobacco smoke. The burden of proof falls upon the owner of the establishment to prove that the health problem was NOT caused by exposure at his place of business. No employees shall be forced to sign waivers to this provision prior to or during employment nor shall any such waivers be deemed valid as related to smoking exposure. This burden shall not be construed as license to disregard employees right to privacy. Reasonable access to medical records and health history shall be permitted but shall not rise to the level of harassment as defined by law." Take issue with the wording any way you want but I think the gist of it is clear. Since a preponderence of scientific evidence (including a study showing that exposure to second hand smoke increases the risk of breast cancer, the results of which were released the day bar owners asked the courts to overturn the city of Minneapolis ordinance) shows that exposure to second hand smoke causes many health related problems, bar and club owners who wish to continue to profit by placing their employees at risk assume the burden of that risk as well. And the employee does not have to prove that their work exposure caused their problem to recover medical and other related expenses from the employer. So let the discussion begin. Steven M Nelson Willard Hay http://citizenshipchronicles.blogspot.com/ http://minutemenworldwide.blogspot.com/ Get UP! Get OUT! & GET INVOLVED!!! REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] NAACP officers cut a deal, bypass Executive Committee
Below is the text of a letter from Duane Reed, Minneapolis NAACP branch president to Ms. Marceline Dubose, Department of Education, project manager for the Parent Information Centers. [On Minneapolis NAACP Branch letterhead] March 5, 2005 Ms. Marceline Dubose Minnesota Department of Education 1500 Highway 36 West Roseville, Minnesota 55113 Dear Ms. Dubose: Thank you and Mr. Brown for all your time in meetings and phone calls to clarify "all requirements" necessary to close out the NAACP - Parent Information Center (PIC) grant with the Department of Education, State of Minnesota. We appreciate the State authorizing funds to be spent for a program audit of the NAACP-PIC and the purchase buyout of the two copiers, so we can proceed with the final steps in preparation of the final report and reimbursement of cash balance. We anticipate the time line as follows: -Approval by Mr. Carl Breeding, NAACP National Level 2 Administrator of audit firm to conduct the NAACP/PIC audit by March 8, 2005. -Pay off Copier lease by March 8, 2005. -Have Program and Financial narrative complete and submitted to Mr. Breeding for his approval by March 15, 2005. -Return Balance of net funds to the Department of Education by March 15, 2005 -Have you and Mr. Brown conduct an information session with NAACP membership upon completion of the audit. -Have completed audit, then reviewed by Mr. Breeding and present to the executive committee and membership of the Minneapolis NAACP. -Complete closure of NAACP-PIC obligation with the State of Minnesota upon completion of the above schedule ***The above time schedule is contingent on the audit schedule and Mr. Breeding review and approval. Finally, the only persons authorized to represent the Minneapolis NAACP/PIC in this closure matter are Carl Breeding, Duane Reed and Jessie Overton. Sincerely, [signed] Duane K. Reed President, Minneapolis NAACP Cc: Carl Breeding, Jesse Overton, Morgan Brown, Mpls NAACP Executive Committee. -- -Doug Mann, King Field www.educationright.com REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] re: Recent history of 2nd Ward DFL endorsements and a proposal
My first and last ward endorsing convention put me off a bit. I can't remember the number of ballots (few), but I do remember what happened between last two votes: An assistant to the incumbent CP handed her cell phone to the lowest vote getter, he listened to it, then proceeded to throw his support to the incumbent in the final vote. The actual votes of that convention are still online at the mpls.dfl.org website -- see here http://www.scc.net/~t-bonham/MPLSW02.HTM. There were only 2 ballots; Joan Campbell had 55% on the first one, and was endorsed with 61% on the second ballot. Brian Hanninen had 16% on the first ballot; he encouraged his delegates to support Joan Campbell. But only 6% actually moved to Campbell, 9% moved to Zerby and 1% moved to no endorsement. (Candidates can try to "throw their support" however they want, but DFL delegates make up their own mind; they are a notoriously unregimented bunch.) I don't recall anything about this cell phone incident; I don't even see how it would make sense. Joan Campbell and Brian Hanninen were standing next to each other in the hall outside the ballot counting room, talking. Pal Zerby was further down that hall, speaking to delegates and waiting for his chance to talk to Brian Hanninen. They weren't more than 50 feet apart; the Park building isn't all that big. I don't see why a cell phone would be needed at all. Tim Bonham, Ward 12, Standish-Ericsson. REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Re: Bonham and the violins
Hasn't anyone here heard of training in non-violins? --David Shove Roseville On Sat, 12 Mar 2005, Tim Bonham wrote: > > >it was the first time in about 40 years that an incumbent City Council > >Member had been defeated in a primary. > >. . . > >The Elite Few don't want to believe that ordinary people are > >capable of thinking and making decisions - the EF have to do it for the > >ordinaries. Zerby's flogging Campbell showed that the Elite Few were > >wrong. > >. . . > >Bob Johnson > And what does winning all the other races in the last 40 years show? > > The Minneapolis DFL members have a very successful record of electing their > endorsed candidates to office. Because we generally endorse qualified > candidates, who are representative of the ward. > We put the candidates thru a whole lot before endorsing them. We > have screenings, debates, forums, etc.; and we expect that they will phone > up most of the delegates and talk with them. A real stress test for > candidates, because they are dealing with activists who know what's > happening in the neighborhoods, and are good at separating knowledgeable > candidates from flakes or BS'ers. We DFLers fight like feuding siblings > over candidate endorsements; then afterwards we work real hard to elect our > endorsed candidates. > And we're pretty good at doing that. But that's easier when you > have really good candidates to elect! > > P.S. And Paul Zerby did not "completely ignore the party". He was on the > DFL Sample Ballot for the General Election, and he raised money to help > fund that. Plus he & his campaign distributed several thousand of the > joint lit piece for the DFL Board candidates. We're very proud to have > Paul as a DFL elected official! > > Tim Bonham, Ward 12, Standish-Ericsson > > > REMINDERS: > 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. > If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL > PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. > > 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. > > For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html > For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract > > > Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn > E-Democracy > Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org > Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls > REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Re: Bonham and the violins
it was the first time in about 40 years that an incumbent City Council Member had been defeated in a primary. . . . The Elite Few don't want to believe that ordinary people are capable of thinking and making decisions - the EF have to do it for the ordinaries. Zerby's flogging Campbell showed that the Elite Few were wrong. . . . Bob Johnson And what does winning all the other races in the last 40 years show? The Minneapolis DFL members have a very successful record of electing their endorsed candidates to office. Because we generally endorse qualified candidates, who are representative of the ward. We put the candidates thru a whole lot before endorsing them. We have screenings, debates, forums, etc.; and we expect that they will phone up most of the delegates and talk with them. A real stress test for candidates, because they are dealing with activists who know what's happening in the neighborhoods, and are good at separating knowledgeable candidates from flakes or BS'ers. We DFLers fight like feuding siblings over candidate endorsements; then afterwards we work real hard to elect our endorsed candidates. And we're pretty good at doing that. But that's easier when you have really good candidates to elect! P.S. And Paul Zerby did not "completely ignore the party". He was on the DFL Sample Ballot for the General Election, and he raised money to help fund that. Plus he & his campaign distributed several thousand of the joint lit piece for the DFL Board candidates. We're very proud to have Paul as a DFL elected official! Tim Bonham, Ward 12, Standish-Ericsson REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Other transit agencies' problems
See this article for Chicago problems www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0503090387mar09,1,474579.story?coll=chi-newslocal-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true Visit www.EffectiveTransit.org The Independent Unsubsidized Voice of Citizens for Effective Transit in the Twin Cities (no lrt) * lrt isn't a potato chip, you can stop at just one * Bruce Gaarder Highland Park Saint Paul MN [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] IRV will help ensure endorsement
At 10:10 PM 3/10/2005, Jeanne Massey wrote: Forwarded by Jeanne Massey from Tony Solgard: As I see it, the way to use IRV in the endorsement process (with a 60 percent supermajority requirement) is to use the instant runoff mechanism on the first ballot to narrow the field to two candidates. If this results in a candidate with 60 percent support, then you've got a first ballot endorsement. If not, the convention proceeds to a second ballot with those same two candidates and continues as DFL conventions normally do. "Normal" usually involves a rules negotiation over the number of ballots that must be taken before either a vote for "no endorsement" or for adjournment is in order. So, the convention doesn't have to endorse if it doesn't want to. And the convention still has the option of pushing a 55 percent candidate over the 60 percent threshold on the next ballot. But the process is expedited so you don't have to sit through 6 ballots when you could condense the process into just one ballot or two ballots and come to the same outcome. This IRV idea for local party conventions sounds rather wacky to me. It's much more difficult for tellers to count votes with an IRV situation than counting for traditional ballots without the rankings. There's also much more room for counting errors. When you are talking about elections, ballots aren't counted manually (except in a manual recount - which is the exception rather than the rule). I personally see very little use for DFL endorsements for "non-partisan" city elections. Eva Young Near North Minneapolis [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lloydletta.blogspot.com "You do not have the right to never be offended. This country is based on freedom, and that means freedom for everyone - not just you! You may leave the room, turn the channel, express a different opinion, etc., but the world is full of idiots, and probably always will be." --Article II of the Bill of Non-Rights. REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Storm Water Fee criteria (apparent absence of, that is)
I got my storm water fee billing this week and was surprised to find my property charged the highest rate since I have a 40'x140' lot with no driveway, alley or garage. Only my house sits on the lot unless you count my garden shed (6'x8'). I wanted to know what the criteria is for the different fee levels. I called the number on the bill for questions yesterday (Friday), and after sitting on hold for nearly 10 minutes, I hung up and called Gay Noble in the Ward 10 office. She didn't know and wasn't able to find the information on the website either. She said that the first round of billing had been done with a blunt instrument (my language, not hers). In other words, I won the fee lottery and get charged at the highest level just because that's what they're charging me. No one looked at my property to decide what level was appropriate and it is my burden to complain and ask for "reconsideration" - although actually no one "considered" my property in the first place. Gay asked called John McLean to call me and we are now playing phone tag. I will report back after my conversation with him. If anyone already has the criteria, please post them so we can all see what they are. Ann Berget Kingfield 8-6 (formerly 10-11) REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Part 2. The violins continue to sob but play on the wrongpage
Michael Atherton said: Dan Miller is a PPERRIA boardmember. I'd like to hear his honest opinion on how inclusive he believes PPERRIA to be, but I don't think I'll get it. Just to be fair, people should know that Dan Miller has supported amending PPERRIA's Bylaws to admit dorm students as members. Also to be completely fair, people should know that Michael Atherton is also a PPERRIA board member. When the vote was taken last November on admitting students, he ABSTAINED from voting (after speaking in favor of admitting dorm students). Despite being a board member, Atherton abstains from ALL votes. It's not because of a conflict of interest but because of some "principle" that I no longer recall. Consider the absence of all logic in being strongly in favor of something but, when push comes to shove, ABSTAINING from voting. (And, since an absolute 27 of the Board was needed to pass the proposal, Atherton's abstention was effectively a vote of "no.") And, while Atherton complains of the failure of students to attend the NRP-2 kick-off meeting, he neglected, somehow, to mention one other salient fact. That fact is that a written invitation was sent to every student in every dorm room in all of the "dorms" in the Prospect Park area. That invitation included a flyer specifically written to appeal to the students on why they should attend. Written information was also sent to every address in Prospect Park including every address occupied by student renters. The meeting was held at Luxton Park, which is literally across the street from one "dorm" and only blocks from several others. It is true that the attendance by students was disappointing. But the fact that it was disappointing was not due to the lack of significant efforts to get students to attend. And, while we are discussing student attendance, when the meeting voted against Atherton's position at the meeting, he immediately walked out. Thus, we were deprived of his participation as a student. (Albeit as a Ph. D. student, which is not quite what people have in mind when conjuring the image of a "student.") He also said: There was just one person there to represent a whole section of the neighborhood south of Franklin Wrong. There were three people "south of Franklin" who attended and they elected a delegate to the steering committee. He also said: and no one for the area North of University Wrong again. There were three or four people from "north of University" (that is, 4th Street -- the only area north of University with housing) who attended. Again, they elected a delegate from their area to the steering committee. Finally, he also says: I always knew that the housing sweeps were BS. This is his opinion and it is also wrong. I was there when the need for housing sweeps were discussed by CM Zerby and others. Everyone's statements were to the effect that something had to be done to generally ensure the safety of students in their housing. To suggest anything else was going on is just mean spirited. The housing sweeps were done by firefighters looking for ANY safety violations. While it is true that it eventually turned out that most of the violations turned out to be over-occupancy, the firefighters (who are parents too) looked for any safety violations. And anyone who thinks that students are somehow entitled to try to save money by violating the fire safety laws, is sadly mistaken. It is also my understanding from those who have dealt with those protesting the finding of over-occupancy, that those who think that there is a right to violate the fire-safety laws for reasons of economy are but a small fringe of student opinion. Unfortunately, some of that fringe are expressing their opinions here. Steve Cross Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] NO DISRESPECT INTENDED.....
MA says: I find it curious how people on the North side (and Central) get up in arms (no pun intended) when one or two people are killed, but are silent about a much more pervasive problem affecting far more children. VF says: First, let me say Hello! You must have me twisted. I have been posting on this list for quite a while now, and let say that I have always voiced concerns of the continued problems in the community, this is not the first post. While I love to read here and voice "my" opinions here in this forum, I do so as well out in the community; and I do so at my appointment to the Public Health Advisory Comm.., Elected co-chair. I do so when I go to the State of Minnesota Conferences, and I do so in front of city council. I do so at the gas stations, at cub, at the nail saloons, at Mickey D's. I continue to do so, at every chance I get. MA say: People cry for community involvement and services. VF says: We cry because it has either been taken away from us, or has never existed. Or like always a pilot program lasting for a year... MA says: but I rarely hear anyone complain bout the 47% dropout rate or the poor quality of the schools. VF says: Are we living in the same city? Not only have people been talking about it, there are even stats to show that there are more Black men in custody then there are professionals. Don't say there is no one is speaking about the issues of education, because they are. It may not be within your ear shot, or done in your neighborhood, but rest assured they are in mine, also on cable access too. MA says: Why aren't American Americans outraged? Vf says: We are... MA says: Have you forgotten that one of the major objectives of the civil rights movement was access to quality education? VF says: No, I have not forgotten. Civil rights period was established for those who came and suffered for the black race. Be it education, freedom, jobs etc. etc.. I cannot and refuse not to ever forget what people before me have done for me and my race. MA says: Why aren't people marching in the streets? VF says: There are marchings. However, just not during the cold temps in "Minnesota". March for Peace marches every year; and every year the groups of people out grow the following years numbers. In additions to marches there are dialogs and community focus groups that talk about issues that affect the northside. Even in the churches there is talking and discussions on involvement. I think that shows people's concerns here on the Northside. Innovation, everyday entrepreneurship, and creativity are the aims of collaboration." Vanessa L. Freeman Hawthorne Peter Keen REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Minnesotans favor medical marijuana two-to-one
To my surprise, I haven't seen anything in the papers about this. The Marijuana Policy Project (MPP) released the results of a Zogby poll on Thursday showing that 60% of Minnesotans support medical marijuana. In Minneapolis/St. Paul the number was 78.5%. Interestingly the response was even stronger when people were asked if qualified patients should be allowed to purchase medical marijuana legally from a nonprofit, regulated dispensary. 78.7% of respondents statewide answered yes to that question, including a whopping 90.4% in Minneapolis/St. Paul. Taken at face value, that means nine out of ten people in Minneapolis agree with the intent of the proposed charter amendment which was blocked from the ballot last August. Also, MPP released the results of this poll on the same day the Court of Appeals heard arguments about City Council's decision block that amendment from last November's ballot. A decision on that should come within 90 days. Full results of the poll can be seen at: http://mpp.org/MN/2005mnpoll.pdf Jason Samuels Whittier Administrative Coordinator, Citizens Organized for Harm Reduction REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Part 2. The violins continue to sob but play on the wrongpage
Bob Johnson wrote: > Once again, occupancy limit ordinances are irrelevant here since the > three students were not killed by overoccupancy. You are really > trying hard to ignore this fundamental fact. I always knew that the housing sweeps were BS. Dinkytown is no more safer now than before. You need better smoke detectors not fewer numbers of roommates. Those kids were not killed as they were tramped on the way to an exit. If people think that PPERRIA members are truly concerned about students they should sit in on some neighborhood meetings and listen to what is said either explicitly or between the lines. > You are quite consistent in your exclusion politics. For you it is > apparently acceptable to exclude students from neighborhood > participation (as Prospect Parkers do on the basis that students > are not PERMANENT residents) just as NRP process excludes the great > majority of residents from decision-making on the expenditure > of large sums of taxpayer dollars, allowing mainly the > participation of activists. I attended Prospect Park's Phase II initiation meeting and inquired about the number of students who were in attendance. There were, besides myself, three students who were there as part of a class project, one of whom lived in the neighborhood. I told this resident that he could and should participate in meeting and that he was guaranteed this right by law. He didn't believe me and went to ask Mr. Cross, who was chairing the meeting, if he could participate. When I made a motion that the meeting should be postponed because PPERRIA had failed to garner enough student participation (there are approximately 3000 to 4000 students living here), those in attendance voted to continue. Just on causal observation, it appear that there were two major groups represented. A contingent of Somali residents from Glendale and a bunch of White folks 95% of whom appeared to be PPERRIA board members. There was just one person there to represent a whole section of the neighborhood south of Franklin and no one for the area North of University. To me, two students (one of them me) is not sufficient to represent the interests of 3000 others. NRP citizen participation is a joke. Dan Miller is a PPERRIA boardmember. I'd like to hear his honest opinion on how inclusive he believes PPERRIA to be, but I don't think I'll get it. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] NO DISRESPECT INTENDED.....
V.L. Freeman wrote: > Look if you need me and/or other folks to help, just ask! > But, please don't sit by and do nothing. Don't just send > the MPD alone. Send services along with MPD. Embrace the > whole problem not just part of a problem. Don't use the band > aid solution to a problem that requires a wholistic solution. I thought that I would take advantage of an appropriate title. I find it curious how people on the North side (and Central) get up in arms (no pun intended) when one or two people are killed, but are silent about a much more pervasive problem affecting far more children. People cry for community involvement and services, but I rarely hear anyone complain about the 47% dropout rate or the poor quality of the schools. These problems are inexorably intertwined. A 47% dropout rate produces a new crop of gang recruits each year. Even good job programs will do little to help children who are literate and lack the social skills to maintain employment. The public schools are failing the American Americans in this city! Do you know how the schools are proposing to solve the budget shortfall: reduce the funding of poverty programs in favor of keeping class sizes small (an ineffectual program intended to make the public at large happy). Why aren't American Americans outraged? Have you forgotten that one of the major objectives of the civil rights movement was access to quality education? Why aren't people marching in the streets? Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] NO DISRESPECT INTENDED.....
Hello List! "I guest this posting is especially for those in power to do something." I am sorry, that this is not about ward 2, or rain barrels etc This is about the quality of life, which means a whole heck of a lot more to me then any election, rain barrels, light rail, 94 corridor etc I mean know disrespect to any of those issues, but, I not feeling any of them right now. Those issues will not help the situation in North Minneapolis right now. The streets in North Minneapolis is tensed. You see it, hear it, and feel it. Im sure MPD knows the feel. Even in my house where both of my sons grew up with Frank, there is grief, frustration and anger. My oldest, tells me that the last Biggie and Tupac song says most of what he is feeling: Why am I dying to live, if I am just living to die; and why am I trying to see when there is nothing in sight. Finally, Why am I trying to give, if no one gives me a try. He feels like he is at risk, from drive bys, mistaken identity, and/or just walking down the streets of North Minneapolis. In the past 10+ years since being in Hawthorne, my boys have lost more friends, then me as an adult, and my friends have had health problems. Theirs from violence. They both have discussed their funeral wishes with me as their mother. When they make it to their birthdays they are just thankful to be alive, and so am I. However, this is not natural. Children are to burying their parents, not the other way around. As much as I as a parent want to keep them both close to my heart, and safety, I know they are men, and I must let them go and be men. It hurts, and its fearful. Even as I write this post to you, my heart is troubled, my soul is troubled. You have the powers in your reach, and it is your obligation to protect those who you were elected into office to represent. The underserved and those of that are least of us, most importantly. I hear people tell me all the time, that our neighborhood does not vote. I say that makes a difference how? I am pleading with you and begging you to combine services together and find money to put toward reducing death, hopelessness, and the streets of destruction. Look if you need me and/or other folks to help, just ask! But, please dont sit by and do nothing. Dont just send the MPD alone. Send services along with MPD. Embrace the whole problem not just part of a problem. Dont use the band aid solution to a problem that requires a wholistic solution. Innovation, everyday entrepreneurship, and creativity are the aims of collaboration." Vanessa L. Freeman hawthorne Peter Keen REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Zimmermann at the Capital
Selections from Zimmermann's PRT testimony: http://www.roadkillbill.com/PRT-ZIMCapitol.html Listen to more of Zimmermann bashing transit and spinning elaborate PRT fantasies at the Capitol: http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/audio/ archivescomm.asp?comm=17&ls_year=84 Click on the March 9th meeting...he's toward the end...after Mark Olson and before Morrie Anderson. "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Part 2. The violins continue to sob but play on the wrong page
[Lickness]: If you don't like the current ordinances dictating occupancy limits work to change them but a violation is a violation. [Johnson]: Once again, occupancy limit ordinances are irrelevant here since the three students were not killed by overoccupancy. You are really trying hard to ignore this fundamental fact. [Lickness]: I expect the inspectors to enforce all of them not just pick and choose based on public outcry. You also try to ignore the very serious overoccupancy in Riverside Plaza also in CM Zerby's ward - this was certainly mentioned in my first post on this subject. [Lickness]: While I am not attempting to speak for Council Member Zerby here I suspect that after the fire over there he received a great many calls complaining about the general substandard condition that many of the properties rented by students at the U of M were in. I know it has crossed my mind several times and I am just a passerby. [Johnson]: The calls CM Zerby got were from PP and MH residents who realized that this was a golden opportunity to put the clamps on the students in a new and more official way, led by a crusading City Councilman. [Lickness]: It is common knowledge that the rental rates over in that area are skyhigh for properties that are very old and in substandard shape because of their proximity to the U. While I understand that the consumer dictates what the market will bear in terms of rental rates, I do expect the structures to be in qualify for an occupancy certificate according to the current housing ordinances. [Johnson]: Why don't you take an unguided tour of Riverside Plaza and then repeat that sermon. Don't just walk the hallways, be sure to get into some apartments, and don't miss the stairwells. But then perhaps you are one of those who think that 'Cedar-Riverside West Bank always has been the place in the city for immigrant ghettos, and always will be. It's just the destiny of Cedar-Riverside.' You are quite consistent in your exclusion politics. For you it is apparently acceptable to exclude students from neighborhood participation (as Prospect Parkers do on the basis that students are not PERMANENT residents) just as NRP process excludes the great majority of residents from decision-making on the expenditure of large sums of taxpayer dollars, allowing mainly the participation of activists. Minneapolis, the city where everything is either banned or heavily regulated should be consistent and ban the term 'citizen participation'. Minneapolis must stop pussyfooting around with the banning of leaf blowers, cigarette smoke, diesel fumes. Do something democratic for a change - at least replace the mythical term 'citizen participation' with the accurate term 'activist participation'. The former is just code for the latter. Guess I will have to start a nonprofit and be the executive director and apply to the Legislature for a grant to promote this. Bob Johnson Cedar-Riverside West Bank W2/P10 REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Part 1. The violins continue to sob but play on the wrong page
[Lickness]: Mr. Johnson, are you suggesting that violations of occupancy limits should have been ignored? [Johnson]: Of course I am not suggesting any such thing, but you are trying really hard to change the subject by ignoring the fact that the three UM student deaths were not caused by overoccupancy. One can call a sow's ear a silk purse, but that doesn't make it one (although it once was proven technologically possible to convert the one into the other at great expense). So it being established that the deaths were not caused by overoccupancy, then why did the sweeps become mostly about occupancy limits and just a bit about fire safety? The tradition on the East Bank of the residents discriminating against students is a longstanding one, and the Prospect Park club worked hard to keep it going even before Zerby became CM Zerby. But then the three UM student deaths in September 2003 was an excuse to do the extensive overoccupancy sweeps under the pretense of 'safety sweeps'. I cite once again an article in the East Bank's neighborhood newspaper, "Renters left out in the cold?", "Southeast Angle", p. 4 (Dec 2003), which in paragraph 5 reports: "JoAnn Velde, city housing inspections director, said most violations cited in the sweeps so far were for occupancy limits." That is now supplemented by referring to another article the following month in that newspaper, "Fury erupts at meeting on renter issues", "Southeast Angle", pp. 1-3 (Jan 2004), which on p. 1 reports, "The safety weep has become an occupancy sweep, as owners are cited for overoccupied properties rather than safety violations." Moving just across the Mississippi, I ask you, how do you explain the major overoccupancy and very poor general conditions in Riverside Plaza with its 1,303 units which is also in CM Zerby's ward, but which he totally ignores? Does Riverside Plaza being across the Mississippi River somehow make the overoccupancy problem there into some Western-cow-country-situation which is judged to be tolerable, but not at all acceptable in the Elite Eastern Enclave on the East Bank? As far as the PP folks and CM Zerby are concerned, living in Cedar-Riverside must be about like living on the wrong side of the tracks as it was spoken of in the 1940s and 1950s. I thought that in great progressive Minneapolis that sort of segregationist thinking had been left behind long ago. (continued in Part 2 which follows) Bob Johnson Cedar-Riverside West Bank W2-P10 REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Recent history of 2nd Ward DFL endorsements and a proposal
My first and last ward endorsing convention put me off a bit. I can't remember the number of ballots (few), but I do remember what happened between last two votes: An assistant to the incumbent CP handed her cell phone to the lowest vote getter, he listened to it, then proceeded to throw his support to the incumbent in the final vote. It put many people off and the end result was that we have had thoughtful, extremely capable, and fair handed service from Paul Zerby for the last few years (despite a claim to the contrary on this list). I can't help but think that Instant Run-off Voting would have resulted in a decidedly different outcome at this particular convention, but who is to know for a certainty? If the local DFL is not ready for IRV, perhaps they are up for a "natural experiment" of sorts (as opposed to a highly manipulative experiment in a lab or highly controlled environment). Most who know me, know that the study of biology informs my views of human behavior and this situation is no different. I recall a test question for a course in evolutionary ecology asking for a design for a natural experiment to learn something about pocket gophers. It would be a simple matter to include a ranked ballot in the first vote from all us gophers to learn a bit about IRV as compared to our present process; as an experiment, it would not disrupt, but inform us after the fact about how useful IRV might be in all sorts of applications. By applying different methodologies to the same data collected in an initial ranked ballot, we can learn a great deal without causing traditionalists much stress (this time anyway). Simply move to suspend the rules, then move for delegates to rank candidates in the first ballot and that these ballots be turned over to a group of volunteers to analyze and report back their results to city and state DFL offices for distribution, then get back to business as usual. Delegates could propose the same at any future conventions. We could do that, or rules committees could simply include the experiment from the beginning. I would love to have had ranked preferences tallied up for my last 2nd Ward experience; I can only hope that the next experience will be better. One wonders if the DFL endorsement process would seem as superfluous as it does now if it were not chained to our traditional methods. I think a decision on endorsement after two ballots, one IRV and one runoff, is much better than a decision after two ballots between which that decision is effectively removed from the convention delegates. Sometimes two traditionally cast ballots is enough, sometimes they are not; I hope for greatly shortened conventions and fairer results reflecting the will of a convention using IRV, but I have seen something completely different from that in the traditional approach to convention voting in the DFL. When folks see our endorsement process versus our perceived values of the party, you will see parties change or folks changing parties. The sky may not be falling, but it has been too dark for my taste in the last several years. Ain't it time for a Jeffersonian revolution? Perhaps just a little one? Or at least some experiments in alternative voting systems. If the DFL does not adapt, will it face extinction? Bill Kahn Prospect Park Reluctant DFL delegate from 2-5, number four I think, but thinking about resigning REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Submission for Mpls Issues list
All, Below is a letter from Councilmembers Niziolek and Zimmerman and me regarding our ongoing conversation with the community on the environmental impact of leaf blowers and options to address these concerns. This letter invites YOU to participate in the conversation - your voice is needed to determine what actions are taken on this issue. Both Councilmembers are scheduled to be at the meeting to hear public comment. Addtionally, I am writing to ask that you consider to help sending this e-mail to your own e-mail list, as many will share our concern and will want to offer their commnents at the upcoming public meeting. For more information on the impact of leaf blowers go to: http://www.allianceforsustainability.net/ and click on neighborhoods and scroll down to the leaf blower announcement. Another good site is: www.zapla.org Additionally, if you have a little time and interest, please contact me to help creating position papers and fact sheets and other fun community organizing activities. I need your help! Thanks for your consideration. We hope to hear from you, your neighbors and friends on the 19th! -Stephen Rueff PS If you live in Minneapolis and can't make the meeting, please contact your city councilmember with your view on this issue. March 10, 2005 Dear Friends and Neighbors: The first Urban Noise and Leaf Blowers Community Meeting went well. There were neighborhood representatives from neighborhoods throughout the city. Discussions focused on concerns associated with leaf blowers, concerns about regulating leaf blowers, as well as community strategies in relation to leaf blowers and their use (see accompanying notes from the meeting.) We are now planning a follow-up meeting to: 1) hear more thoughts, comments, and recommendations and 2) develop next steps in working on the issues. One proposal that we will be discussing is the introduction of an ordinance that would prohibit combustion engine leaf blowers in the City of Minneapolis. Please join us for the final meeting of the Quiet Community Coalition regarding the proposed regulation of leaf blowers on Saturday, March 19th from 9:30 a.m. - 11:30 a.m. at Lyndale Farmstead Park 3900 Bryant Avenue South. Indeed, over 250 cities in North America have regulated leaf blowers, including Los Angeles, California, where no gas powered leaf blower may be used within 500 feet of a residence (see www.zapla.org). Therefore, through this initiative, we will be following a national trend in which cities remain vigilant to the impacts of so-called 'modern conveniences' which have wasteful and harmful effects on our quality of life. Please bring signed petitions, community experts, allies and other information to the meeting. This meeting will be to coordinate our strategy and bring together our resources before presenting our case to the Minneapolis City Council. Sincerely, Dan Niziolek Stephen Rueff, Resident East Harriet Farmstead Neighborhood Dean Zimmerman REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Decorum note (Was [Mpls] Bonham and the violins)
Please do not put members' names in the subject - it encourages personal disputes forbidden by the rules. Speak to the issue, not the person. David Brauer List manager REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Bonham and the violins
[Bonham]: >Yes, DFL "honchos" do support the DFL-endorsed candidate chosen by >the DFL delegates. >Of course! Why should that be puzzling, or frustrating, or at all hard to >understand? >Who do you expect DFL party officers to support other than DFL-endorsed >candidates? [Johnson]: Yes, the DFL honchos and hacks stayed true to The Party and voted and worked for Joan Campbell, but it didn't do much good. So many DFLers voted against The Party and for Zerby that Zerby whupped Campbell in the primary election (and won in the general election). And if you recall, it was the first time in about 40 years that an incumbent City Council Member had been defeated in a primary. To his great credit, Zerby ignored The Party. So much for endorsements - just another example in Minneapolis of the elite few masquerading as representing the real thing, that is, the people. Seems its the same whether the DFL Party, or the Log Cabins, or the Stonewalls or NRP are involved. Some may not think that's true but it is. The Elite Few don't want to believe that ordinary people are capable of thinking and making decisions - the EF have to do it for the ordinaries. Zerby's flogging Campbell showed that the Elite Few were wrong. I will never forget watching the one West German TV channel as I studied in Zürich 1960-1963, seeing the Berlin Wall go up. But even more impressive were the interviews of Walter Ulbricht, the Vorsteher (chief) of the Deutsche Demokratische Partei, and Praesident of the (East German) Deutsche Demokratische Republik. He only had one sermon and he always preached from the same text which was, "Die Partei hat immer recht." (The Party is always right.) There was even a Party song with that title - the text can be found by googling. Like at the movies in the 40s and 50s, watch for coming attractions - there may be in the future a translation of that Party song for the DFL. Bob Johnson Cedar-Riverside West Bank W2-P10 REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
