Re: [Mpls] Street Vice;- A little Sigapore Restoritive Justice might help.
This has sure worked for graffiti and vandalism in Singapore! Jim Graham, Ventura Village There is a reason Singapore works so hard to control graffiti. Singapore is a tightly controlled military dictatorship. Political views opposing the government are pretty well muzzled -- they won't appear in the government-controlled newspapers, for example. So people fell back on one of the traditional ways of communicating, postering on the walls around public squares to get their political views out to the public. That's what Singapore's strict graffiti/vandalism laws are intended to control. They're not concerned with the kind of graffiti art we see here, but with political views. Sorry, Jim, but I don't think this an idea we should suggest here, under the Geo W. corporate puppet government. Even if it seems to work in Singapore's dictatorship. Tim Bonham, Ward 12, Standish-Ericsson TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Street Vice;- A little Sigapore Restoritive Justice might help.
The suggestion was not that the Singapore Circle be used for graffiti in Minneapolis. Heck I think it should be any property owners right to go out and beat the living crap out of any graffiti artist caught defacing ones property. And if not up to it personally to be able to contract another to do it. But that is more of a personal issue, not something I would support being legislated. My suggestion was more for more of an institutional rather than personal one for drug dealers. My comment was a comment about the success of applying police to a problem and I used graffiti as an analogy about success. The actual suggestion was to possibly use the method as an alternative to prison for street level drug dealing and possession. Clearly prison is not a deterrent to selling drugs. It is simply part of the criminal sub-culture. Some might say canning is inhumane, but it certainly seems more humane than spending a few months in jail and possibly destroying the potential the person might have. Such a punishment incorporated into a restorative model seems very cost effective as well as much more humane. Wizard, you keep at them on the prostitution business. While I may agree with the concept of legalized prostitution I absolutely disagree with the notion of differential treatment for Johns, from other child molesters. I also would not mind seeing some application of a law about drug induced sexual acts to the prostitution world. Maybe bring in both the Pimp and John on such a law. I, like Wizard, had to laugh at the concept of aggravation when applied to the crime situation in impacted neighborhoods. Clearly someone has never seen many who were so aggravated that they were willing to administer a good old butt whipping. I believe that better describes Wizard. I am also aggravated that supposed good liberals couldn't separate the abuse and torture of women and children from out call girls and professional hotel sex downtown and on the strip. I am aggravated that politicians feel that our daughters and wives and sisters and mothers are not as important as their own. Look at the rape rate that is tolerated in our same neighborhoods where street prostitution is tolerated. Sometimes I feel my fellow liberals are more of a problem than those supposed non-caring republicans. At least republicans are not supposed to care. Some liberal politicians profess to care deeply the plight of poor women, and yet do nothing. No, aggravated does not express my mental state when thinking of this. Mad as hell is a much more accurate statement. On a more friendly note. Thanks to Tim Bonham for his suggestions on legal liability in posting of the license plate numbers of those acting in a manner that appears to be soliciting prostitution in a neighborhood where that is prevalent. Thank you to Peter Schmitz for his post about the use of our neighborhoods as containment zones. Peter says, So why do neighborhoods like yours continue to experience drug dealing and prostitution and all the bad things that come along with it, like gang wars and shootings and hookers defecating in recycling bins? The answer is: City Hall's unwritten policy of CRIME CONTAINMENT. Tolerate crime in the poor neighborhoods as long as it doesn't touch the more affluent regions of the city. The other reason Peter is that they just frankly do not give a damn. Or at least NOT enough to do something about it. We have indeed fought this war for sometime with different administrations in the Mayor's Office. We have had those meeting with every Mayor going back to Fraser and every Police Chief going back to Bouza. We received National and Inter-National news coverage when we asked the Federal Government to declare us a National Disaster Area. The problem is that the Mayors and City Councils have just had other priorities. Such as subsidizing their large corporate buddies (We all know about Target, Brookfield, Brighton, and the long list of others). The politicians just have never placed enough value on our women and children and poor communities to be really bothered by the issue. In addition their better neighborhoods place pressure to keep the crime contained so it does not get out into good neighborhoods. Yes Peter is so right. It is time that the containment zones and Impacted Neighborhoods became the major issue for a political campaign. For that to happen you will have to have caring people from other more affluent neighborhoods also making it an issue. But that is what good caring ethical people have always done; care enough for others to put aside self interest and push for justice even if it does not affect one's self. I would welcome many more like Peter to get involved now in such political pushing for justice. Sure we are making slow progress in this fight at the neighborhood level, but it would be so much faster and the number of women and children saved would be so much greater if our own political leaders really cared what
Re: [Mpls] Street Vice;- A little Sigapore Restoritive Justice might help.
Thanks so much Jim, for an excellent and inspiring posting that will serve as an example to me. Even though we may disagree about legalizing prostitution and certain street drugs, I'm grateful that we can find common ground. Crime containment is wrong. While I may find our laws against prostitution and street drugs counterproductive, I firmly believe that the rules and protections Minneapolis on the books, sensible or otherwise, should apply to each of its citizens. Nothing makes for a better discussion than finding commong ground after expressing a disagreement. --Peter SchmitzCARAG TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Street Vice;- A little Sigapore Restoritive Justice might help.
Jim Mork writes, Send in the cops only works for certain things. It reduced the murder rate, so it was money well spent. But I don't recall a time when a socially caused problem like prostitution or drug use went away because of social coercion. There may BE a solution (not every country suffers to the same degree), but police coercion seems not to be it. I am surprised that someone so demanding for Exact statistics, (and not just anacdotal information), can resort to such gross as well as inaccurate generalities. So perhaps we can show a couple that disprove Jim Mork's supposition. How about Singapore, Jim? Crime and drug use are subject to police and social coercion and they seem to have to a large degree addressed drug use and sales. How about Saudi Arabia, not much prostitution or drug use, and drunk driving is pretty much non-existent? So serious social coercion does in fact work very well if it is truly applied. Now I am not for the death penalty, so I do not much favor most of the coercion methods of these other countries. I am intrigued by the Singapore method of restorative justice. It also conforms to Jim Mork's insistence on saving his tax dollars. The first five or ten times a petty drug dealer is apprehended, and found guilty take that person to the corner of the street where he or she sold drugs and apply a little rattan to the old posterior. I can assure readers that this would have a much greater IMPACT' on the criminal and his behavior than spending several months in jail. It costs almost nothing, heck I bet people would pay to swing the old cane, but let impacted area residents do it for free. The important thing is this method would lesson the chance for the petty user/dealer from immediately entering the prison system, becoming institutionalized, and even more part of the criminal subculture. If the person has not re-offended in a year the sentence should be expunged from the record. While I often am just poking fun, the above suggestion is completely serious. The savings in tax dollars would be huge. The savings in lives would be even more dramatic. A few residents, with wet rattan canes, could give a whole new meaning to treatment circle for restorative justice. First time maybe have the residents sit around a circle facing the criminal and tell the drug dealer about what will be happening the next time he or she is caught. Even show pictures and get testimony from previous recipients. This has sure worked for graffiti and vandalism in Singapore! Remember folks you can never take serious anything you can not laugh at! Especially yourself, religion, or politics. Jim Graham, Ventura Village If at first the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it. - Albert Einstein TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Street Vice;- A little Sigapore Restoritive Justice might help.
Jim, Drug dealing and prostitution are already illegal in Minneapolis, okay? So why do neighborhoods like yours continue to experience drug dealing and prostitution and all the bad things that come along with it, like gang wars and shootings and hookers defecating in recycling bins? The answer is: City Hall's unwritten policy of CRIME CONTAINMENT. Tolerate crime in the poor neighborhoods as long as it doesn't touch the more affluent regions of the city. In the early nineties I lived in Central Neighborhood and was appalled by all the robberies, muggings, panhandling, whore mongering and what not. In fact, I myself, was the victim of one robbery and one mugging. When I called the police they acted like I was wasting their time. So if you are genuinely bugged by drug dealing and prostitution in your neighborhood, then maybe you ought to be asking our mayor, our chief of police, or perhaps your city council representative, why City Hall continues to implement its unwritten policy of crime containment in its poorest neighborhoods. And don't allow Mayor Rybak, Police Chief Olson, or your city council rep to blame crime in your neighborhood on Pawlenty's budget cuts. This protocol has been in effect for at least as long as I've been living in Minneapolis, since the summer of 1990. Personally, I'd like to see prostitution and the marketing of most street drugs legalized, regulated, zoned and taxed, but as long as this isn't the case you and your neighbors have as much right to protection from drug dealing and prostitution as our more affluent citizens in Kenwood and Linden Hills. Good luck. You have my sympathy. Crime containment ought to be the number one issue in our next citywide elections.---Peter Schmitz CARAG TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
