Re: [Mpls] Uptown Apartment Bldgs Sold (City Regulations Blamed)
As far as the storm water runoff , I would disagree with Mark's assumptions. Front yard setbacks must be approximately the same on all contstruction that has been done in Mpls, so the yards are basically the same for a 3 lot 22 unit building and 3 houses or duplexes. As far as the rear, a 22 unit building will have the parking lot and the homes will probably have a 20' garage which will cover 1/2 the width of the lot. So at the most, the runoff would be double for the 22 unit versus the 3 houses. Currently the rate charged is 7 1/2 times more for the 22 unit, which is not exactly equitable. You can confirm this info by looking at the case of JAS Apartments v. The City of Minneapolis (File # 00-17717) which is going in front of the Appellate Court in the very near future. Steve Meldahl Jordan (work) - Original Message - From: "Mark Snyder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Minneapolis Issues Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 12:14 AM Subject: Re: [Mpls] Uptown Apartment Bldgs Sold (City Regulations Blamed) > > I can't speak with authority on #1, but I can say that Steve Meldahl is > incorrect with his assumption in #2. The reason for this is because the > three houses on three lots are surrounded by three yards that absorb storm > water whereas the 22 unit building on three lots has a great deal more paved > surface area (especially if there's off-street parking as well) that does > not absorb storm water and it must instead run off into the storm sewers. > > Whether there's enough of that going on to justify the price difference > Steve cites, I don't know, but there are justifiable grounds for having a > price difference. Especially when we consider just how much water is being > lost to the storm sewer system rather than replenishing our ground water > through infiltration (sinking back into the ground). > > According to a report issued this past August, Minneapolis ranks among the > top ten metropolitan areas in ground water infiltration losses. Based on > 1997 figures, we lose around 21 billion gallons of water per year. This is > more than double what was lost annually in 1982, when it was 9 billion > gallons annually. > > Why is this important? Because diminishing ground water supplies > contributes to drought conditions. And of course, since we all have to have > pristine green lawns, we consume even more water to maintain them. > > Those interested can read more at: > http://www.americanrivers.org/landuse/sprawldroughtreport.htm#execsum > > And if you're wondering what you can do to reduce your impact on storm water > runoff, a simple thing is to redirect the downspouts on your gutters so that > they empty onto your lawn or garden (away from your house, of course) and > not a paved surface like a driveway or sidewalk. > > And if you really want to make a difference, you can quit water your lawn > during the driest part of the summer and allow it to go dormant as nature > intended. I haven't watered my lawn in about 20 years. It still comes > back just fine every spring. > > Mark Snyder > Windom Park (59A) > > On 11/18/02 9:05 PM, "steven meldahl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > You are not quite right on this matter. Steve Frenz is complaining based on > > 2 reasons: > > > > 1. Sewer rates for homes and duplexes are based on water consumption levels > > during low-use winter months, while sewer rates for all others are based on > > actual water use, including the high-use summer months - see the difference? > > > > 2. The cost of storm sewer projects is based on water consumption, not on > > the size of the lot as it should be. I do not think it rains more heavily > > on apartment buildings than houses or duplexes. A 22 unit building that > > sits on 3 city lots does not produce any more runoff than 3 houses on the > > same 3 lots, yet their proportion is 7 times higher - see the difference? > > > > > > > Steve Meldahl > > Jordan (work) > > ___ > > Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy > Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Uptown Apartment Bldgs Sold (City Regulations Blamed)
I can't speak with authority on #1, but I can say that Steve Meldahl is incorrect with his assumption in #2. The reason for this is because the three houses on three lots are surrounded by three yards that absorb storm water whereas the 22 unit building on three lots has a great deal more paved surface area (especially if there's off-street parking as well) that does not absorb storm water and it must instead run off into the storm sewers. Whether there's enough of that going on to justify the price difference Steve cites, I don't know, but there are justifiable grounds for having a price difference. Especially when we consider just how much water is being lost to the storm sewer system rather than replenishing our ground water through infiltration (sinking back into the ground). According to a report issued this past August, Minneapolis ranks among the top ten metropolitan areas in ground water infiltration losses. Based on 1997 figures, we lose around 21 billion gallons of water per year. This is more than double what was lost annually in 1982, when it was 9 billion gallons annually. Why is this important? Because diminishing ground water supplies contributes to drought conditions. And of course, since we all have to have pristine green lawns, we consume even more water to maintain them. Those interested can read more at: http://www.americanrivers.org/landuse/sprawldroughtreport.htm#execsum And if you're wondering what you can do to reduce your impact on storm water runoff, a simple thing is to redirect the downspouts on your gutters so that they empty onto your lawn or garden (away from your house, of course) and not a paved surface like a driveway or sidewalk. And if you really want to make a difference, you can quit water your lawn during the driest part of the summer and allow it to go dormant as nature intended. I haven't watered my lawn in about 20 years. It still comes back just fine every spring. Mark Snyder Windom Park (59A) On 11/18/02 9:05 PM, "steven meldahl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You are not quite right on this matter. Steve Frenz is complaining based on > 2 reasons: > > 1. Sewer rates for homes and duplexes are based on water consumption levels > during low-use winter months, while sewer rates for all others are based on > actual water use, including the high-use summer months - see the difference? > > 2. The cost of storm sewer projects is based on water consumption, not on > the size of the lot as it should be. I do not think it rains more heavily > on apartment buildings than houses or duplexes. A 22 unit building that > sits on 3 city lots does not produce any more runoff than 3 houses on the > same 3 lots, yet their proportion is 7 times higher - see the difference? > > > Steve Meldahl > Jordan (work) ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Uptown Apartment Bldgs Sold (City Regulations Blamed)
You are not quite right on this matter. Steve Frenz is complaining based on 2 reasons: 1. Sewer rates for homes and duplexes are based on water consumption levels during low-use winter months, while sewer rates for all others are based on actual water use, including the high-use summer months - see the difference? 2. The cost of storm sewer projects is based on water consumption, not on the size of the lot as it should be. I do not think it rains more heavily on apartment buildings than houses or duplexes. A 22 unit building that sits on 3 city lots does not produce any more runoff than 3 houses on the same 3 lots, yet their proportion is 7 times higher - see the difference? Also in Mpls, our rates are 3 times higher than the rate in Edina. We have the 6th highest rate of the largest 30 cities in the Country and are higher than all except Boston of the older cities that have major water infrastructure rebuilding. Why you ask? All of us know that politicians do not want to raise real estate taxes, so they go to other areas to get the money. That is why water and sewer rates have almost doubled in the last 8 years. You can thank the old City Hall crowd for that. Steve Meldahl Jordan (work) - Original Message - From: "Sheldon Mains" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Discuss Minneapolis (E-mail)'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 4:26 PM Subject: RE: [Mpls] Uptown Apartment Bldgs Sold (City Regulations Blamed) > OK, this makes it clear some people who claim regulatory problems don't > have a clue. > > Minneapolis does not charge for "storm water" It does charge for > sanitary sewer use. In Minneapolis it is illegal to have storm water > run-off going into the sanitary sewer. > > Minneapolis charges for SANITARY sewer use based on the amount of water > used in the building in the winter (don't know how that is defined > exactly). The theory is that, in the winter, all the water used in a > building goes down the sewer. The summer bills are estimated based on > the winter bills so you are not charged for SANITARY sewer use for water > you put on your garden or your yard or use to wash your car. How this > penalizes multifamily buildings is beyond me. > > Sheldon mains, seward, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > "The key issue raising (Frenz's) blood pressure is the way Minneapolis > calculates storm-water fees based on the amount of water used within a > building. Most cities instead calculate how much runoff storm water a > property produces, he said. > > "Minneapolis' method unfairly penalizes multifamily apartment buildings > because those buildings use more water, but that additional water use > has nothing to do with storm water, Frenz said." > > Bill Dooley > Kenny > ___ > > Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn > E-Democracy > Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls > > > > ___ > > Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy > Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Uptown Apartment Bldgs Sold (City Regulations Blamed)
OK, this makes it clear some people who claim regulatory problems don't have a clue. Minneapolis does not charge for "storm water" It does charge for sanitary sewer use. In Minneapolis it is illegal to have storm water run-off going into the sanitary sewer. Minneapolis charges for SANITARY sewer use based on the amount of water used in the building in the winter (don't know how that is defined exactly). The theory is that, in the winter, all the water used in a building goes down the sewer. The summer bills are estimated based on the winter bills so you are not charged for SANITARY sewer use for water you put on your garden or your yard or use to wash your car. How this penalizes multifamily buildings is beyond me. Sheldon mains, seward, [EMAIL PROTECTED] "The key issue raising (Frenz's) blood pressure is the way Minneapolis calculates storm-water fees based on the amount of water used within a building. Most cities instead calculate how much runoff storm water a property produces, he said. "Minneapolis' method unfairly penalizes multifamily apartment buildings because those buildings use more water, but that additional water use has nothing to do with storm water, Frenz said." Bill Dooley Kenny ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Uptown Apartment Bldgs Sold (City Regulations Blamed)
The latest issue of TWIN CITIES BUSINESS JOURNAL has an interesting article regarding the sale of 20 Uptown apartment buildings from Steve Frenz (JAS Properties) to Spiros Zorbalas (Uptown Classic Properties). This sale was for $10 million which averages $45,000 per apartment unit. According to the article, Frenz is shifting his apartment investments to other cities out of frustration with the regulatory environment in Minneapolis. "The key issue raising (Frenz's) blood pressure is the way Minneapolis calculates storm-water fees based on the amount of water used within a building. Most cities instead calculate how much runoff storm water a property produces, he said. "Minneapolis' method unfairly penalizes multifamily apartment buildings because those buildings use more water, but that additional water use has nothing to do with storm water, Frenz said." Bill Dooley Kenny ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
