Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] modern Linux desktops
On 5 January 2012 22:22, Lars nore...@z505.com wrote: I wonder how Windows XP does remote GUI without an x11 architecture. In windows XP they have something called Remote Assistance which is something like VNC I think (faster? I don't know). So without an x11 architecture I wonder how they make windows remote capable. Windows uses RDP (remote desktop protocol). A Microsoft invention (well really something they bought and slapped their anme on it). RDP is nothing like X11's network protocol, and RDP is not built into GDI, it is separate installed software (but the client software comes standard with Windows). RDP is something similar to VNC, but apparently more efficient. Linux devs also implemented RDP (server and client), so that could already be used now in X11 and probably in the future with Wayland. Wayland might still get remote window support built-in, but that will come later. -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://fpgui.sourceforge.net -- Ridiculously easy VDI. With Citrix VDI-in-a-Box, you don't need a complex infrastructure or vast IT resources to deliver seamless, secure access to virtual desktops. With this all-in-one solution, easily deploy virtual desktops for less than the cost of PCs and save 60% on VDI infrastructure costs. Try it free! http://p.sf.net/sfu/Citrix-VDIinabox ___ mseide-msegui-talk mailing list mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mseide-msegui-talk
Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] modern Linux desktops
On 5 January 2012 22:25, Lars nore...@z505.com wrote: Since MAC is BSD based now, does Mac not use X11? How does it get it's snappyness? Or does it have that slower feel to it? No, MacOSX doesn't use X11. Apple implemented a completely new GUI on top of FreeBSD (just like Wayland wants to do). Apple also implemented a X11 server on top of its GUI, so you can run X11 apps on a Mac, but you need to start that server process first (manually). Wayland wants to do the same - so existing X11 based apps can continue to run. MacOSX also has a RDP/VNC style protocol for remote desktop access - but again it is not something built-in like under X11. -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://fpgui.sourceforge.net -- Ridiculously easy VDI. With Citrix VDI-in-a-Box, you don't need a complex infrastructure or vast IT resources to deliver seamless, secure access to virtual desktops. With this all-in-one solution, easily deploy virtual desktops for less than the cost of PCs and save 60% on VDI infrastructure costs. Try it free! http://p.sf.net/sfu/Citrix-VDIinabox ___ mseide-msegui-talk mailing list mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mseide-msegui-talk
Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] modern Linux desktops
On Thursday 05 January 2012 19.29:57 Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: Kristian Høgsberg stated that his goal was that every frame is perfect, by which he mean that applications will be able to control the rendering enough that we'll never see tearing, lag, redrawing or flicker. So I take it Kristian, which developed many of todays X11 features like AIGLX, DRI2 etc., knows the issues with the current X11 implementation, and should be able fix those in Wayland. If Apple could do it on top of FreeBSD (now MacOSX or Darwin etc.), then Kristain should be able to do it too with Linux and probably other *nix platforms too, I would imagine. In my opinion the problem is not X11 per se but the collaboration of the application with the myriad of different window managers on Linux. Wayland probably will add another bunch of different solutions to the list. Martin -- Ridiculously easy VDI. With Citrix VDI-in-a-Box, you don't need a complex infrastructure or vast IT resources to deliver seamless, secure access to virtual desktops. With this all-in-one solution, easily deploy virtual desktops for less than the cost of PCs and save 60% on VDI infrastructure costs. Try it free! http://p.sf.net/sfu/Citrix-VDIinabox ___ mseide-msegui-talk mailing list mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mseide-msegui-talk
Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] modern Linux desktops
On Tuesday 03 January 2012 21.50:19 nore...@z505.com wrote: Same here. I found linux to be slower than Windows XP and Windows 2000 sadly, I think part of it is the X11 being slower than win32 gui calls, but I am not sure since I have never profiled to see what is slowing it down. Even mozilla firefox seems to load web pages slower and less snappy than MS Windows. BSD the same thing - even on a non kde bsd desktop I find it less snappy than win32. So the only common thing between bsd and linux, is X11 window system - so x11 may be slowing things down vs win32. I don't think so. MSEgui X11 applications are as fast as gdi32 applications if they are not slowed down by a modern compositing window manager. From my point of view as GUI toolkit developer the X11 API is well designed, gdi32 is a set of premature quick shot pieces. There can be a handicap of Linux because the graphic hardware producers don't care much about Linux. Martin -- Ridiculously easy VDI. With Citrix VDI-in-a-Box, you don't need a complex infrastructure or vast IT resources to deliver seamless, secure access to virtual desktops. With this all-in-one solution, easily deploy virtual desktops for less than the cost of PCs and save 60% on VDI infrastructure costs. Try it free! http://p.sf.net/sfu/Citrix-VDIinabox ___ mseide-msegui-talk mailing list mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mseide-msegui-talk
Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] modern Linux desktops
On Tuesday 03 January 2012 22.33:23 IvankoB for-mse wrote: From my short LINUX C/C++ experience, it looks really difficult to write resourse-relaxed apps for LINUX. Just look into GTK2+, KDE4+ etc application bricks. Also all they're C++ based thus a lot of dynamic memory fragmentation which means 1000s times as worse usage of CPU cache etc. Work with unicode is a nightmare too - simple charset conversion involves a lot of code memory reallocations just for a SINGLE string. Very-very inefficients. Just multiply this single slowliness on thousands of strings when desktop is running ! That's : the LINUX GUI API has become too high-level (C++ based) against lowe-level win-32 API (C-based). Eeasier to program but much more resource hungry so that even modern hardware has got saturated once LINUX desktops tried more advanced eye candings. Agreed. For MSEgui I often use dynamic arrays instead of TList or even PChar and pointer arithmetic instead of String for performance reasons, one of the reasons I fought against the Delphi like code page aware strings in FPC which have even more overhead. Martin -- Ridiculously easy VDI. With Citrix VDI-in-a-Box, you don't need a complex infrastructure or vast IT resources to deliver seamless, secure access to virtual desktops. With this all-in-one solution, easily deploy virtual desktops for less than the cost of PCs and save 60% on VDI infrastructure costs. Try it free! http://p.sf.net/sfu/Citrix-VDIinabox ___ mseide-msegui-talk mailing list mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mseide-msegui-talk
Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] modern Linux desktops
On 3 January 2012 22:50, nore...@z505.com wrote: down. Even mozilla firefox seems to load web pages slower and less snappy than MS Windows. That the snappy-ness under MS Windows could be because most recent web browsers (Firefox, Chrome, IE9) are hardware accelerated. No such hardware acceleration exists under Linux. Well, the setting is there in Firefox, but it has no affect (even with AMD's graphics drivers) But now I am going a bit off topic for mse forums. (And the fonts on linux always seem odd looking to me, I prefer win32 fonts that are more crisp. My fonts under Ubuntu (since the 7.x days) are crisp and clear. The secret is the correct settings. I cover those settings in fpGUI's FAQ text file. https://github.com/graemeg/fpGUI/blob/master/docs/faq.txt Gnome's GUI font settings do not correctly setup xft. I always have to add the ~/.fonts.conf file manually before my fonts look perfect and super crips. Problem with Windows is all the spyware and virus +1 And the mandatory re-install after 6 months because it for some unknown reason starts running slower and slower. I don't like that macos has moved to Objective C it seems and ditched pascal. At least we have Free Pascal and Cocoa and Carbon bindings. So that solves that. :-) I had a look and Objective C too, and didn't like it either. I'm now retraining myself in Java to cover all desktop platforms, and even mobile platforms like Android. MSEide apparently works with a C compiler too (not just FPC). So maybe a Java Compiler could be called too. ;-) -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://fpgui.sourceforge.net -- Ridiculously easy VDI. With Citrix VDI-in-a-Box, you don't need a complex infrastructure or vast IT resources to deliver seamless, secure access to virtual desktops. With this all-in-one solution, easily deploy virtual desktops for less than the cost of PCs and save 60% on VDI infrastructure costs. Try it free! http://p.sf.net/sfu/Citrix-VDIinabox ___ mseide-msegui-talk mailing list mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mseide-msegui-talk
Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] modern Linux desktops
On 3 January 2012 23:42, Lars nore...@z505.com wrote: i find it is X11 that is actually slowing things down. But since I have no evidence or proof it is the X11 bandwidth or wrappers or code indirection X11 has a lot of latency issues - mostly due to its client/server (network) based design. That is why it is not nearly as responsive as Windows, Mac OS X or even Haiku. Thinking about it, even my 1996 OS/2 setup is faster than current Linux in GUI/mouse response. Hopefully the Wayland project [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_(display_server)] can penetrate the Linux GUI market, and resolve the X11 issues. -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://fpgui.sourceforge.net -- Ridiculously easy VDI. With Citrix VDI-in-a-Box, you don't need a complex infrastructure or vast IT resources to deliver seamless, secure access to virtual desktops. With this all-in-one solution, easily deploy virtual desktops for less than the cost of PCs and save 60% on VDI infrastructure costs. Try it free! http://p.sf.net/sfu/Citrix-VDIinabox ___ mseide-msegui-talk mailing list mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mseide-msegui-talk
Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] modern Linux desktops
On 4 January 2012 10:55, Martin Schreiber mse00...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think so. MSEgui X11 applications are as fast as gdi32 applications if they are not slowed down by a modern compositing window manager. From my point of view as GUI toolkit developer the X11 API is well designed, As a GUI toolkit developer myself (smile), I agree with the X11 API being well designed (contrary to many other developers saying it is difficult to use). But the lack of snappy feeling could be due to the latency X11 has, due to the client/server design. The other downside under Linux is the lack of fast graphics drivers. Linux has by far the slowest graphics performance compared to MacOS and Windows - even when you use the proprietary drivers under Linux. A simple test for what I consider a snappy test. Resize a window under Linux. You very often see multiple rectangles being drawn as the graphics system tries to keep up. Also, the mouse often moves faster than the corner edge of the window being resized. Under MacOS (wife's iMac) and Windows (same laptop which has Linux installed too) the mouse never leaves the corner edge of the window, and you don't see multiple window rectangles being drawn as you resize. Not a very professional test, but enough to clearly show the difference in performance. -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://fpgui.sourceforge.net -- Ridiculously easy VDI. With Citrix VDI-in-a-Box, you don't need a complex infrastructure or vast IT resources to deliver seamless, secure access to virtual desktops. With this all-in-one solution, easily deploy virtual desktops for less than the cost of PCs and save 60% on VDI infrastructure costs. Try it free! http://p.sf.net/sfu/Citrix-VDIinabox ___ mseide-msegui-talk mailing list mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mseide-msegui-talk
Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] modern Linux desktops
KDE 4.x and installed KDE 3.5.x instead. A huge speed increase on the desktop! AFAIK, KDE4 was obeyed to switch to per-application single window/message queue :) May be, not polished enough. 2012/1/3, Graeme Geldenhuys graemeg.li...@gmail.com: On 31 December 2011 09:04, Martin Schreiber wrote: I use now the KDE 3.5 RPM's from http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE3/openSUSE_12.1/ on Suse 12.1 with success. Linux desktop is snappy again! I have done the same with my Slackware 13.1 install. Uninstalled the default KDE 4.x and installed KDE 3.5.x instead. A huge speed increase on the desktop! The lastest Linux desktops are in a very bad state at the moment - I hope the people in charge see their error and fix it promptly (though I have my doubts). I'm eyeing out my wife's iMac more and more. Yes I hate the overpriced Apple products, but underneath the MacOSX is still unix, my wife's iMac has never crashed, the UI is very fast and responsive, and things just work! I'm seriously considering getting an 27 iMac the next time I upgrade. I don't have time to struggle with Linux any more, and I hate Windows even more. Plus there are stacks of open-source software for the MacOS too (most have origins in Linux anyway). -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://fpgui.sourceforge.net -- Write once. Port to many. Get the SDK and tools to simplify cross-platform app development. Create new or port existing apps to sell to consumers worldwide. Explore the Intel AppUpSM program developer opportunity. appdeveloper.intel.com/join http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-appdev ___ mseide-msegui-talk mailing list mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mseide-msegui-talk -- Write once. Port to many. Get the SDK and tools to simplify cross-platform app development. Create new or port existing apps to sell to consumers worldwide. Explore the Intel AppUpSM program developer opportunity. appdeveloper.intel.com/join http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-appdev ___ mseide-msegui-talk mailing list mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mseide-msegui-talk
Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] modern Linux desktops
IvankoB for-mse wrote: From my short LINUX C/C++ experience, it looks really difficult to write resourse-relaxed apps for LINUX. Just look into GTK2+, KDE4+ etc application bricks. Also all they're C++ based thus a lot of dynamic memory fragmentation which means 1000s times as worse usage of CPU cache etc. Work with unicode is a nightmare too - simple charset conversion involves a lot of code memory reallocations just for a SINGLE string. Very-very inefficients. Just multiply this single slowliness on thousands of strings when desktop is running ! That's : the LINUX GUI API has become too high-level (C++ based) against lowe-level win-32 API (C-based). Eeasier to program but much more resource hungry so that even modern hardware has got saturated once LINUX desktops tried more advanced eye candings. I'm not sure if it is C++ that is slowing it down because for example gNOME is a plain C api isn't it? Isn't gnome tool kit plain C procedural calls and KDE is object oriented C++? From what I remember reading, Gnome gui's are emulating object orientation using plain C. Microsoft windows is emulating object orientation too by passing messages similar to smalltalk message passing. In plain C you have a lot of heap allocation using pchars, right? So why would C++ slow it down? When I install plain BSD minimal X window install, i find it is X11 that is actually slowing things down. But since I have no evidence or proof it is the X11 bandwidth or wrappers or code indirection, I can't say for sure it is x11. Doesn't x11 involve more code indirection since it is designed to be able to transport the windows to other computers remotely, whereas win32 gui is not like X11 for remote usage? 2012/1/4, nore...@z505.com nore...@z505.com: On 31 December 2011 09:04, Martin Schreiber wrote: I use now the KDE 3.5 RPM's from http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE3/openSUSE_12.1/ on Suse 12.1 with success. Linux desktop is snappy again! I have done the same with my Slackware 13.1 install. Uninstalled the default KDE 4.x and installed KDE 3.5.x instead. A huge speed increase on the desktop! The lastest Linux desktops are in a very bad state at the moment - I hope the people in charge see their error and fix it promptly (though I have my doubts). Same here. I found linux to be slower than Windows XP and Windows 2000 sadly, I think part of it is the X11 being slower than win32 gui calls, but I am not sure since I have never profiled to see what is slowing it down. Even mozilla firefox seems to load web pages slower and less snappy than MS Windows. BSD the same thing - even on a non kde bsd desktop I find it less snappy than win32. So the only common thing between bsd and linux, is X11 window system - so x11 may be slowing things down vs win32. But now I am going a bit off topic for mse forums. (And the fonts on linux always seem odd looking to me, I prefer win32 fonts that are more crisp. Problem with Windows is all the spyware and virus but then again if linux got more popular there would be some virus otu there for it too.) I'm eyeing out my wife's iMac more and more. Yes I hate the overpriced Apple products, but underneath the MacOSX is still unix, my wife's iMac has never crashed, the UI is very fast and responsive, and things just work! Same here, except I am eying my sisters mac. I like that it is bsd based. I don't like that macos has moved to Objective C it seems and ditched pascal. -- Write once. Port to many. Get the SDK and tools to simplify cross-platform app development. Create new or port existing apps to sell to consumers worldwide. Explore the Intel AppUpSM program developer opportunity. appdeveloper.intel.com/join http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-appdev ___ mseide-msegui-talk mailing list mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mseide-msegui-talk -- Write once. Port to many. Get the SDK and tools to simplify cross-platform app development. Create new or port existing apps to sell to consumers worldwide. Explore the Intel AppUpSM program developer opportunity. appdeveloper.intel.com/join http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-appdev ___ mseide-msegui-talk mailing list mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mseide-msegui-talk -- Write once. Port to many. Get the SDK and tools to simplify cross-platform app development. Create new or port existing apps to sell to consumers worldwide. Explore the Intel AppUpSM program developer opportunity. appdeveloper.intel.com/join http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-appdev
Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] modern Linux desktops
Hallo IvankoB, Du schriebst am Tue, 3 Jan 2012 16:39:56 +0500: AFAIK, KDE4 was obeyed to switch to per-application single Did you mean to say obliged here? Obeyed doesn't make sense here to me. (And if this should be obliged, by whom?) window/message queue :) May be, not polished enough. Well, isn't it polished a lot, after all? On the outside, that is, after all, who cares about the innards? (Once they said about MS' strategy if you cannot _make_ it good, make it _look_ good - seems _some_ of the desktop people have adopted this as their guideline...) -- (Weitergabe von Adressdaten, Telefonnummern u.ä. ohne Zustimmung nicht gestattet, ebenso Zusendung von Werbung oder ähnlichem) --- Mit freundlichen Grüßen, S. Schicktanz --- -- Write once. Port to many. Get the SDK and tools to simplify cross-platform app development. Create new or port existing apps to sell to consumers worldwide. Explore the Intel AppUpSM program developer opportunity. appdeveloper.intel.com/join http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-appdev ___ mseide-msegui-talk mailing list mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mseide-msegui-talk
Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] modern Linux desktops
Hallo nore...@z505.com, Du schriebst am Tue, 3 Jan 2012 14:50:19 -0600: find it less snappy than win32. So the only common thing between bsd and linux, is X11 window system - so x11 may be slowing things down vs win32. Win32 is much more interwoven into the basic system than X11 is even now, after all the fuzz with accelerated drivers and kernel mode setting. The downside of that is that a Windows graphics driver problem usually brings down the whole system, while most of the time you can just kill X and try again if the X system locks up - you just might have to do this over a network connection (ssh). Same here, except I am eying my sisters mac. I like that it is bsd based. I don't like that macos has moved to Objective C it seems and ditched pascal. Didn't they do away with Pascal already when the first Mac came out? I think to remember that the last Pascal based Apple computer was the Lisa, which never became really commercial? -- (Weitergabe von Adressdaten, Telefonnummern u.ä. ohne Zustimmung nicht gestattet, ebenso Zusendung von Werbung oder ähnlichem) --- Mit freundlichen Grüßen, S. Schicktanz --- -- Write once. Port to many. Get the SDK and tools to simplify cross-platform app development. Create new or port existing apps to sell to consumers worldwide. Explore the Intel AppUpSM program developer opportunity. appdeveloper.intel.com/join http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-appdev ___ mseide-msegui-talk mailing list mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mseide-msegui-talk
Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] modern Linux desktops
In plain C you have a lot of heap allocation using pchars, right? == Yes, and it's a nightmare that a C-function can't return a string or pointer without pre/post memory issues. So why would C++ slow it down? === Moved to background pchar/pointer issues + object classes. PS: Why me mention heap fragmentation is that me read an article describing how such fragmentation makes CPU caches useless which result in many-many times performance impact (modern CPUs bear 3..6M cache per core). Such fragmentation is caused by New/Malloc etc dynmem allocators object constructions. In the contrary, dynarrays occupy contiguous memory thus cache efficient and its reallocator procedure SetLength is quite efficient. Me noticed it even with a simple application -the Inffile viewer, where the dynmem version operate times as slower than the dynarray one. 2012/1/4, Sieghard s_c_...@arcor.de: Hallo nore...@z505.com, Du schriebst am Tue, 3 Jan 2012 14:50:19 -0600: find it less snappy than win32. So the only common thing between bsd and linux, is X11 window system - so x11 may be slowing things down vs win32. Win32 is much more interwoven into the basic system than X11 is even now, after all the fuzz with accelerated drivers and kernel mode setting. The downside of that is that a Windows graphics driver problem usually brings down the whole system, while most of the time you can just kill X and try again if the X system locks up - you just might have to do this over a network connection (ssh). Same here, except I am eying my sisters mac. I like that it is bsd based. I don't like that macos has moved to Objective C it seems and ditched pascal. Didn't they do away with Pascal already when the first Mac came out? I think to remember that the last Pascal based Apple computer was the Lisa, which never became really commercial? -- (Weitergabe von Adressdaten, Telefonnummern u.ä. ohne Zustimmung nicht gestattet, ebenso Zusendung von Werbung oder ähnlichem) --- Mit freundlichen Grüßen, S. Schicktanz --- -- Write once. Port to many. Get the SDK and tools to simplify cross-platform app development. Create new or port existing apps to sell to consumers worldwide. Explore the Intel AppUpSM program developer opportunity. appdeveloper.intel.com/join http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-appdev ___ mseide-msegui-talk mailing list mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mseide-msegui-talk -- Ridiculously easy VDI. With Citrix VDI-in-a-Box, you don't need a complex infrastructure or vast IT resources to deliver seamless, secure access to virtual desktops. With this all-in-one solution, easily deploy virtual desktops for less than the cost of PCs and save 60% on VDI infrastructure costs. Try it free! http://p.sf.net/sfu/Citrix-VDIinabox ___ mseide-msegui-talk mailing list mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mseide-msegui-talk
