Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line

2004-06-14 Thread Joost Yervante Damad
Hello,

This whole discussing thought me to shut up about things I don't know
anything about.
Hope I didn't offend anyone to bad ;-p

Greetings, Joost
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Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line

2004-06-14 Thread Joost Yervante Damad
'Patriek Lesparre' wrote about 'Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line' - Sun, Jun 13, 2004 at 
02:00:28PM CEST
 Joost Yervante Damad wrote:
 Again, ideas are not copyrightable. They are patentable in some
 countries, which is bad enough.
 
 You're referring to so-called 'software patents'. I don't think they have 
 anything to do with this, and I'm against them fully.

Good to hear.

http://kwiki.ffii.org/ElectAct0405En

 Games are very much copyrightable, because they are a creative creation, 
 just like a book or an article or a song or a drawing, etc.
 In fact, a computer game is little more than a combination of all those 
 things.

Well this is indeed a good point. The code for the game is,
the graphics are, and the music is copyrightable. But the game in total is
more of an 'abstract' thing. This is hard to grasp. This is my point
exactly. Making a clone of a game might not be best ethics, but it's as
legal as the thousands of SF books that are just Lord Of The Rings
clones :)

 All for I know, they only were about the name 'Tetris'. If you make a
 Tetris-clone called 'spinning dropping blocks' there is as far as I know
 no way to sue you, except as 'bullying'. I doubt one can take copyright
 on such generic shapes as those from tetris.
 
 http://atarihq.com/tsr/special/tetrishist.html
 
 Interestingly, most tetris rip-offs use different blocks than the original. 
 Guess why...

Amazing :)
This article also proves that this is Not an easy issue!

 Anyway, I have the feeling you believe copyrights to be a bad thing! :\

No, not at all, they are working quite well to protect both individuals
and companies, within reasonable bounds.

Joost

(P.S.: sorry for the late reaction, my e-mail provider's smtp died yesterday
and was only available again this morning)

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Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line

2004-06-13 Thread Patriek Lesparre
Joost Yervante Damad wrote:
Again, ideas are not copyrightable. They are patentable in some
countries, which is bad enough.
You're referring to so-called 'software patents'. I don't think they have 
anything to do with this, and I'm against them fully.

Games are very much copyrightable, because they are a creative creation, 
just like a book or an article or a song or a drawing, etc.
In fact, a computer game is little more than a combination of all those things.

All for I know, they only were about the name 'Tetris'. If you make a
Tetris-clone called 'spinning dropping blocks' there is as far as I know
no way to sue you, except as 'bullying'. I doubt one can take copyright
on such generic shapes as those from tetris.
http://atarihq.com/tsr/special/tetrishist.html
Interestingly, most tetris rip-offs use different blocks than the original. 
Guess why...

Anyway, I have the feeling you believe copyrights to be a bad thing! :\
Greetz,
Patriek
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Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line

2004-06-13 Thread Bas Wijnen
On Sun, Jun 13, 2004 at 07:19:35AM +0200, Joost Yervante Damad wrote:
 'Patriek Lesparre' wrote about 'Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line' - Sat, Jun 12, 2004 
 at 07:17:03PM CEST
  Joost Yervante Damad wrote:
  Since when is a game concept copyrightable?
  
  Dunno, maybe you should ask Jaleco who got their ass kicked in court by 
  Konami, just because they made a game involving musical instruments too. ^^;
 
 You must keep in mind that Japan  USA have much more rediculous
 interpretation of copyright then Europe.

According to dutch law (which is what you should live by when in Holland),
non-dutch laws are only applicable to you when you provide products to other
countries.  So if it's only the US and Japan (and Robsy doesn't live in one of
those countries), then just not publishing it to them would probably be
enough.  A warning on the download page that you are not allowed to download
if you are in the US or Japan, and are not allowed to export it to there,
could be legally enough to make sure you cannot be sued by their laws.

However, I'm not sure if I would risk it.  That's the main problem
about court cases IMO: Big companies with lots of money can just have you do
anything they want by threatening with a case.

 I just found it curious that people ask no questions about such issues.
 This is a discussion mailinglist after all :)

No questions?  There's been quite a thread about it already.  What kind of
questions did you expect?

Bye,
shevek

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Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line

2004-06-13 Thread Patriek Lesparre
shevek wrote:
A warning on the download page that you are not allowed to download
if you are in the US or Japan, and are not allowed to export it to there,
could be legally enough to make sure you cannot be sued by their laws.
Actually, the recent Microsoft vs. Lindows case disproves this. A Dutch 
court decided Lindows, Inc. was still infringing on the Windows name, 
because even though Benelux (Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg) visitors 
were directed to www.lin---s.com and download Lin---s OS, they could still 
access www.lindows.com and get Lindows OS if they wanted to.

This forced Lindows to change the name of their product to Linspire 
world-wide, even though they just lost the case for the Benelux!

So setting up a warning is not enough! Even if you block IP's from certain 
countries, they could still access through a proxy, and you'll still be liable.

Besides, I'm not convinced that european copyright laws are more lenient on 
the matter of game cloning compared to USA or Japanese laws.

Greetz,
Patriek
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Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line

2004-06-12 Thread Joost Yervante Damad
'Eduardo Robsy Petrus' wrote about '[MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line' - Fri, Jun 11, 2004 at 
03:31:25PM CEST
 Hello everybody:
 
 After receiving some communications from the legally entitled owners from 
 Japan I have decided to put off-line the GURU LOGIC game that I coded for 
 MSXdev'03. Please, if you have the file do not redistribute it and delete 
 it from your media.
 
 Sorry for any inconvenience and thank you for your help.
 
 More details can be obtained here: http://www.robsy.net/guru.htm

Hi,

just one of the many cases of a corporation bullying an individual with
no legal ground...

If they are copyright owners, just a rename of your game should be
enough.

It makes me sad. Please go and read 1984 again all.

Greetings, Joost
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Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line

2004-06-12 Thread Sander Zuidema
Hey MSX fella's,
 just one of the many cases of a corporation bullying an individual with
 no legal ground...
It's not just a corporation bullying an invidual, it's also an 
individual bullying a corporation. Whether or not on purpose, Robsy's 
actions always gave me the impression he was trying to get a reaction 
from Aiky. Which happened.

I hope we can consider all of this a 'case closed' soon, but in a nutshell:
- Aiky is planning to release Guru Logic on MSX (there can always come 
things between that, so I'm not making any promises here :P)
- Robsy knew that in an early stage of development of his port
- Robsy decided to continue development, aware of the fact that Aiky 
could contact him about it one day
- I can only appreciate the way Robsy has responded to the call he 
received from Javi.

Lets look on the bright side, Aiky (Compile!!!) is preparing to release 
a game, commercially, for MSX again. Anno 2004. Who would have thought?

Greetz,
Snout
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Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line

2004-06-12 Thread Patriek Lesparre
Joost Yervante Damad wrote:
just one of the many cases of a corporation bullying an individual with
no legal ground...
Hello?! Copyrights are no legal ground? funny...
If they are copyright owners, just a rename of your game should be
enough.
No, the game uses trademarked characters too.
And still, since all levels have been stolen, it's another copyright violation.
It makes me sad. Please go and read 1984 again all.
Are you on drugs?!
Greetz,
Patriek
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Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line

2004-06-12 Thread Joost Yervante Damad
'Patriek Lesparre' wrote about 'Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line' - Sat, Jun 12, 2004 at 
02:18:03PM CEST
 Joost Yervante Damad wrote:
 just one of the many cases of a corporation bullying an individual with
 no legal ground...
 
 Hello?! Copyrights are no legal ground? funny...

Since when is a game concept copyrightable?

 If they are copyright owners, just a rename of your game should be
 enough.
 
 No, the game uses trademarked characters too.
 
 And still, since all levels have been stolen, it's another copyright 
 violation.

If they're modeled after the original, why is it then illegal?

 It makes me sad. Please go and read 1984 again all.
 
 Are you on drugs?!

No, but perhaps a bit paranoid.

Peace, Joost
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Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line

2004-06-12 Thread Joost Yervante Damad
'Sander Zuidema' wrote about 'Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line' - Sat, Jun 12, 2004 at 
12:34:53PM CEST
 Hey MSX fella's,
 
  just one of the many cases of a corporation bullying an individual with
  no legal ground...
 
 It's not just a corporation bullying an invidual, it's also an 
 individual bullying a corporation. Whether or not on purpose, Robsy's 
 actions always gave me the impression he was trying to get a reaction 
 from Aiky. Which happened.

Perhaps, I don't know the context, therefore I will shut up :)

Joost
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Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line

2004-06-12 Thread Patriek Lesparre
Joost Yervante Damad wrote:
Since when is a game concept copyrightable?
Dunno, maybe you should ask Jaleco who got their ass kicked in court by 
Konami, just because they made a game involving musical instruments too. ^^;

And, television show formats (=concept) are copyrightable too.
 And still, since all levels have been stolen, it's another copyright
 violation.
If they're modeled after the original, why is it then illegal?
They were copied from the original, so violating copyrights. In contrast, 
the TeddyWareZ version contained a lot of original levels created by TwZ or 
other contributors themselves.

 It makes me sad. Please go and read 1984 again all.

 Are you on drugs?!
No, but perhaps a bit paranoid.
:P
BTW, I meant to place a ;) after that remark, I hope you understood that :)
In any case, regardless of opinions/feelings, it shows Aiky cares enough 
about MSX to do something about it!
Whether that 'caring for' is positive or negative, I'll leave to your own 
interpretation. (right, TFH? :P)

Greetz,
Patriek
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Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line

2004-06-12 Thread yakumoklesk
On 12 Jun 2004 at 19:17, Patriek Lesparre wrote:

 Joost Yervante Damad wrote:
 Since when is a game concept copyrightable?
 
 Dunno, maybe you should ask Jaleco who got their ass kicked in court by 
 Konami, just because they made a game involving musical instruments too. ^^;
 

So, you mean that somehow Epic Games payed ID Software for making a Quake clone in 
Unreal? Or Duke Nukem payed for being another copy of Doom? I don't think so, and I 
wish this never happens...

Regards, David.

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Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line

2004-06-12 Thread Laurens Holst
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dunno, maybe you should ask Jaleco who got their ass kicked in court by 
Konami, just because they made a game involving musical instruments too. ^^;
So, you mean that somehow Epic Games payed ID Software for making a Quake clone in 
Unreal? Or Duke Nukem payed for being another copy of Doom? I don't think so, and I 
wish this never happens...
Those games are just in the same genre...
I mean, a puzzle game in general wouldn't have anything to do with GLC. 
Nor does a game involving shooting blocks into figures (Quarth, anyone? 
:)). But when the game involves figures looking somewhat like chickens, 
shooting blocks in rotating figures, well, like in GLC... Then you're 
just copying someone else's idea, and afaik copyrights rest on that.

Duke Nukem and Doom are both 3D first person shooters, but they have 
different looks, different gameplay (even slightly) different goals and 
objectives, etc. I admit it is a gray area, where is a game concept 
similar to an existing one and where does it become a ripoff. How much 
has to be different for it to become a different game. You'll have to 
use common sense. But if something is clearly a copy of your idea, well...

I mean, otherwise how could there have been legal cases by amongst 
others Konami and the Tetris Corporation, which they apparantly won...

~Grauw
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Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line

2004-06-12 Thread Joost Yervante Damad
'Patriek Lesparre' wrote about 'Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line' - Sat, Jun 12, 2004 at 
07:17:03PM CEST
 Joost Yervante Damad wrote:
 Since when is a game concept copyrightable?
 
 Dunno, maybe you should ask Jaleco who got their ass kicked in court by 
 Konami, just because they made a game involving musical instruments too. ^^;

You must keep in mind that Japan  USA have much more rediculous
interpretation of copyright then Europe.

 And, television show formats (=concept) are copyrightable too.

I think this is based on goodwill and buying the format to quickly
produce a show, and on using the trademarked name.

Again, at least in Europe, as far as I know, concepts are not
copyrightable. Plans are to make them patentable, lets hope that doesn't
come true :(

  And still, since all levels have been stolen, it's another copyright
  violation.

If they were literarely extracted, I agree it's a copyright violation.

 If they're modeled after the original, why is it then illegal?
 
 They were copied from the original, so violating copyrights. In contrast, 
 the TeddyWareZ version contained a lot of original levels created by TwZ or 
 other contributors themselves.
 
  It makes me sad. Please go and read 1984 again all.
 
  Are you on drugs?!
 
 No, but perhaps a bit paranoid.
 
 :P
 
 BTW, I meant to place a ;) after that remark, I hope you understood that :)

Of course :)

 In any case, regardless of opinions/feelings, it shows Aiky cares enough 
 about MSX to do something about it!
 Whether that 'caring for' is positive or negative, I'll leave to your own 
 interpretation. (right, TFH? :P)

Right, I guess my interpretation is a negative. Even if the copyrights
were violated, just dropping the original levels and name would be
enough, but then again, might as well drop the entire game. And anyway
it's the author's call.

I'd probably open-sourced everything except the levels :-p

I just found it curious that people ask no questions about such issues.
This is a discussion mailinglist after all :)

Greetings, Joost
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Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line

2004-06-12 Thread Joost Yervante Damad
'Laurens Holst' wrote about 'Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line' - Sat, Jun 12, 2004 at 
10:56:54PM CEST
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Dunno, maybe you should ask Jaleco who got their ass kicked in court by 
 Konami, just because they made a game involving musical instruments too. 
 ^^;
 
 So, you mean that somehow Epic Games payed ID Software for making a Quake 
 clone in Unreal? Or Duke Nukem payed for being another copy of Doom? I 
 don't think so, and I wish this never happens...
 
 Those games are just in the same genre...

 I mean, a puzzle game in general wouldn't have anything to do with GLC. 
 Nor does a game involving shooting blocks into figures (Quarth, anyone? 
 :)). But when the game involves figures looking somewhat like chickens, 
 shooting blocks in rotating figures, well, like in GLC... Then you're 
 just copying someone else's idea, and afaik copyrights rest on that.
 
 Duke Nukem and Doom are both 3D first person shooters, but they have 
 different looks, different gameplay (even slightly) different goals and 
 objectives, etc. I admit it is a gray area, where is a game concept 
 similar to an existing one and where does it become a ripoff. How much 
 has to be different for it to become a different game. You'll have to 
 use common sense. But if something is clearly a copy of your idea, well...

Again, ideas are not copyrightable. They are patentable in some
countries, which is bad enough.

 I mean, otherwise how could there have been legal cases by amongst 
 others Konami and the Tetris Corporation, which they apparantly won...

All for I know, they only were about the name 'Tetris'. If you make a
Tetris-clone called 'spinning dropping blocks' there is as far as I know
no way to sue you, except as 'bullying'. I doubt one can take copyright
on such generic shapes as those from tetris.

Joost
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Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line

2004-06-11 Thread Adrian Oboroc
How convinient for Grauw  Co. :-P

 After receiving some communications from the legally entitled owners from 
 Japan I have decided to put off-line the GURU LOGIC game that I coded for 
 MSXdev'03. Please, if you have the file do not redistribute it and delete it 
 from your media.
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Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line

2004-06-11 Thread David Heremans
On Fri, Jun 11, 2004 at 10:51:53PM +0400, Adrian Oboroc wrote:
 How convinient for Grauw  Co. :-P

Well, they (Grauw  Co.) have permission of the legally entitled owners.
Although Robsys version is great, and I have greatly enjoyed it,
that doesn't change the fact that even a fan versions have to obey the
legal restriction inpossed upon them by law in those countries which
respect the international copyright agreements. 
And Robsy always said that he would respect the whishes of the 'Guru
Logic'-owners, so he did the logical thing. 
Allas, we lose a great MSX1 game because of it :_( 

rgds,

David Heremans





 
  After receiving some communications from the legally entitled owners from 
  Japan I have decided to put off-line the GURU LOGIC game that I coded for 
  MSXdev'03. Please, if you have the file do not redistribute it and delete it 
  from your media.
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Re: [MSX] GURU LOGIC off-line

2004-06-11 Thread Laurens Holst
David Heremans wrote:
How convinient for Grauw  Co. :-P
Well, they (Grauw  Co.) have permission of the legally entitled owners.
*Ahem*, I have to step in a little here... It is not just that we asked 
permission and Robsy did not so we end up on the lucky side, or 
something. At least that is how it sounds to me. Aiky asked us whether 
we would want to develop this game for them (that is the short version 
of it, anyway), and that is what we're doing.

And er, please stop referring to us as Grauw  Co... I'm not even the 
lead programmer -_-;;.

~Grauw
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