Re: [mb-style] pre-RFC2-320: Revised Sort Name Style - identifying the problems that need fixing
Hello, On 02/05/12 12:28, caller#6 wrote: So, my questions to you (the list): Are any of these items particularly important to you? Do some seem to be not-worth-the-effort? Am I wrong in any of my assessments? The entire sort-name field is not important to me, so I don't particularly care about the guideline other than for the fact the field is mandatory, so all editors (including me) have to follow this guideline :) So, from the POV of a user applying the guideline I'd like the guideline to clarify one issue: When dealing with names which are already in the correct order, e.g. Lee Jung Hyun: http://musicbrainz.org/release/119fe913-acca-4931-8e6e-47e22a933cba/cover-art I'm always inclined to just copy the name, as it already would sort correctly. But perhaps I should add a comma anyway, so: name: Lee Jung Hyun, sort-name: Lee, Jung Hyun (picard used to be able to use the sort name as a translated name, which would've been a reason to leave the comma off to prevent picard from swapping names which are already in the correct order -- does picard still do that?). Korean artists tend to use the family name, given name order even when writing their names in latin script. With japanese artists I've seen both (given name, family name seems a bit more common than family name, given name). If picard still does the swapping, I'd be inclined to write Koda Kumi without a comma, because she doesn't use Kumi Koda on album covers so the names shouldn't be swapped, but add Hamasaki, Ayumi with comma, because she does generally use Ayumi Hamasaki on album covers. So, er.. please clarify this -- so that I can stop messing up the sort-name field for these artists :) -- kuno / warp. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] pre-RFC2-320: Revised Sort Name Style - identifying the problems that need fixing
Kuno Woudt wrote: When dealing with names which are already in the correct order, e.g. Lee Jung Hyun: http://musicbrainz.org/release/119fe913-acca-4931-8e6e-47e22a933cba/cover-art I'm always inclined to just copy the name, as it already would sort correctly. But perhaps I should add a comma anyway, so: name: Lee Jung Hyun, sort-name: Lee, Jung Hyun I think the comma should be there. Even though the name is already in the right order, we don't know which part is the surname, so if someone wants to group names together by surname, they can't. (picard used to be able to use the sort name as a translated name, which would've been a reason to leave the comma off to prevent picard from swapping names which are already in the correct order -- does picard still do that?). The option is still there but has been updated for NGS. It first looks for an alias with the correct locale. If there isn't anything usable, it falls back to reversing the sortname. Korean artists tend to use the family name, given name order even when writing their names in latin script. With japanese artists I've seen both (given name, family name seems a bit more common than family name, given name). If picard still does the swapping, I'd be inclined to write Koda Kumi without a comma, because she doesn't use Kumi Koda on album covers so the names shouldn't be swapped, but add Hamasaki, Ayumi with comma, because she does generally use Ayumi Hamasaki on album covers. See the previous comment. You should use aliases to specify the correct name. Nikki ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] pre-RFC2-320: Revised Sort Name Style - identifying the problems that need fixing
caller#6 wrote 1. I think it's important that there be a stated purpose to this guideline rather than just a list of rules[2] that are to be followed. I'm not sure what you have in mind here, but a bit of explanation of why we have sort names and how they function (in MusicBrainz, Picard, web service, etc.) seems like a good idea to me. (In other words, I don't think the info at http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Artist_Sort_Name is sufficient.) I wouldn't have undertaken my recent attempt to make the Sir sortnames look prettier[1] if I'd understood that I was also making them effectively machine-unsortable. 2. The current guidelines handle jr., sr. etc. badly. By appending them to the Family Name, we get unexpected results. [...] 3. The current guidelines handle titles/ranks [3] badly. By pre-pending the title to the person's given name, we get unexpected results. I agree with you that these need attention, and I agree with others that they should go on a fast track. 4. Using comma as a delimiter can give unexpected results. The reason for this is that space sorts before comma Maybe put a space before the comma too? Patrick [1] http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/Artist-Sortname-for-Knights-of-the-Realm-tp4595524.html -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/pre-RFC2-320-Revised-Sort-Name-Style-identifying-the-problems-that-need-fixing-tp4603915p4606413.html Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] pre-RFC2-320: Revised Sort Name Style - identifying the problems that need fixing
On 05/03/2012 08:19 AM, Kuno Woudt wrote: Hello, [snip] So, from the POV of a user applying the guideline I'd like the guideline to clarify one issue: When dealing with names which are already in the correct order, e.g. Lee Jung Hyun: http://musicbrainz.org/release/119fe913-acca-4931-8e6e-47e22a933cba/cover-art I'm always inclined to just copy the name, as it already would sort correctly. But perhaps I should add a comma anyway, so: name: Lee Jung Hyun, sort-name: Lee, Jung Hyun (picard used to be able to use the sort name as a translated name, which would've been a reason to leave the comma off to prevent picard from swapping names which are already in the correct order -- does picard still do that?). Korean artists tend to use the family name, given name order even when writing their names in latin script. With japanese artists I've seen both (given name, family name seems a bit more common than family name, given name). If picard still does the swapping, I'd be inclined to write Koda Kumi without a comma, because she doesn't use Kumi Koda on album covers so the names shouldn't be swapped, but add Hamasaki, Ayumi with comma, because she does generally use Ayumi Hamasaki on album covers. So, er.. please clarify this -- so that I can stop messing up the sort-name field for these artists :) Oh, cool, a different aspect of the comma-as-delimiter problem. Lee Jung Hyun would appear /before/ Lee, Alphonse Aloysius in sorted list. In the long-term, I guess it'd be nice if sort name had fields for family name and given name. That would eliminate most of the delimiter problem, and would allow i18n for things like Halen, Eddie Van :-) Alex / caller#6 ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] pre-RFC2-320: Revised Sort Name Style - identifying the problems that need fixing
practik wrote: 4. Using comma as a delimiter can give unexpected results. The reason for this is that space sorts before comma Maybe put a space before the comma too? If we need something starting with a space, I'd be more in favour of / . Space comma space looks very weird/unnatural to me and it's also very similar to the current separator. I think if we went with space-comma-space, people would keep trying to change the sortnames back to what we use now because it actually just looks like a mistake/bug. If we change the separator, we will need to update all of the existing sortnames, fix guess case and teach people about the new separator anyway, so there's no reason we would need to keep using a comma. Nikki ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] pre-RFC2-320: Revised Sort Name Style - identifying the problems that need fixing
sorry for jumping in just wanted to ask a question that I was trying to answer to myself while ago. The problem is we (Turkish people) do not sort names as family name, name in general (ie: everyone will look to letter 'S' to find Sezen Aksu). We even do not care if The Doors is sorted as Doors, the or not, I'm sure everyone will check letter 'T' to find that, because we simply don't have propositions and such things in the language. However, I always entered artists as how English people would sort it. So, my question is, since we are having i18n support now, shouldn't we let every culture customize how they sort things? --ym ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] pre-RFC2-320: Revised Sort Name Style - identifying the problems that need fixing
On 05/03/2012 12:32 PM, çilek wrote: sorry for jumping in just wanted to ask a question that I was trying to answer to myself while ago. The problem is we (Turkish people) do not sort names as family name, name in general (ie: everyone will look to letter 'S' to find Sezen Aksu). We even do not care if The Doors is sorted as Doors, the or not, I'm sure everyone will check letter 'T' to find that, because we simply don't have propositions and such things in the language. However, I always entered artists as how English people would sort it. So, my question is, since we are having i18n support now, shouldn't we let every culture customize how they sort things? Definitely. This, again, is why I favor separate Family Name and Given Name fields in the long-term. Alex / caller#6 ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] pre-RFC2-320: Revised Sort Name Style - identifying the problems that need fixing
On 05/02/2012 04:46 PM, Ross Tyler wrote: Alex, Thanks for taking this up again. I am still (morbidly) interested. I am sure we both recall http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-320-Revised-Sortname-Style-td3406669i20.html I love what Paul C. Bryan said: In Asimov style, I present the Three Guidelines of Sort Names: 1. A sort name should be used to sort artists in the intended way. 2. A sort name should be presentable, except where such presentation would conflict with the first guideline. 3. A sort name must protect its own existence as long as as such protection does not conflict with the first or second guideline. Seriously, I don't think anything should be done until intent is addressed. I believe that there needs to be some overriding intent established before we start laying down guidelines which, in practice, might violate intent. Intent should always win. In general, I agree. Editors can't treat guidelines as guidelines (as opposed to rules) unless they understand the intent. On the other hand, items 2 3 (titles and jr/sr), as others have said, are relatively easy fixes that (I hope) everybody agrees on. So I'm not opposed to fixing those quickly while the other items on the list are discussed further. Does that seem reasonable? Alex / caller#6 ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] pre-RFC2-320: Revised Sort Name Style - identifying the problems that need fixing
On Thu, 2012-05-03 at 22:32 +0300, çilek wrote: sorry for jumping in just wanted to ask a question that I was trying to answer to myself while ago. The problem is we (Turkish people) do not sort names as family name, name in general (ie: everyone will look to letter 'S' to find Sezen Aksu). We even do not care if The Doors is sorted as Doors, the or not, I'm sure everyone will check letter 'T' to find that, because we simply don't have propositions and such things in the language. However, I always entered artists as how English people would sort it. So, my question is, since we are having i18n support now, shouldn't we let every culture customize how they sort things? I think that a future goal for some schema-change release should be to have per-locale sort names. In this case, The Doors would get sort names like: English: Doors, The Turkish: The Doors Japanese: ドアーズ which would allow the artist names to be sorted in the way that you expect, no matter which language you speak. -- Calvin Walton calvin.wal...@kepstin.ca ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] pre-RFC2-320: Revised Sort Name Style - identifying the problems that need fixing
Nikki-3 wrote practik wrote: 4. Using comma as a delimiter can give unexpected results. The reason for this is that space sorts before comma Maybe put a space before the comma too? If we need something starting with a space, I'd be more in favour of / . Space comma space looks very weird/unnatural to me and it's also very similar to the current separator. I think if we went with space-comma-space, people would keep trying to change the sortnames back to what we use now because it actually just looks like a mistake/bug. Yeah, after I posted that I realized that it could also cause problems with artists that have commas in their names, like Earth, Wind Fire or Yes, Minister. Plus what you said. Bad idea; forget I said it :-) Patrick -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/pre-RFC2-320-Revised-Sort-Name-Style-identifying-the-problems-that-need-fixing-tp4603915p4607746.html Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] pre-RFC2-320: Revised Sort Name Style - identifying the problems that need fixing
On 05/03/2012 01:14 PM, caller#6 wrote: On 05/02/2012 04:46 PM, Ross Tyler wrote: Intent should always win. In general, I agree. Editors can't treat guidelines as guidelines (as opposed to rules) unless they understand the intent. On the other hand, items 2 3 (titles and jr/sr), as others have said, are relatively easy fixes that (I hope) everybody agrees on. So I'm not opposed to fixing those quickly while the other items on the list are discussed further. Does that seem reasonable? Yes. I would think that your solution would the implementation of the (presumed) intent to provide a natural, common sort order between artists that results in the ordering one would expect to find at a brick and mortar record shop or on one's shelf. Sorting should not only establish what is before and after but what is between and what is not. To achieve this, I believe that the the sort name of one artist might need to be affected by who we want its sorted neighbors to be. So, our intent is that we want Harry Connick Jr. and Sr. to be neighbors. Our guidance on how one would typically do this would be what you would say in item 2. Similarly we must have some neighborly intent that would drive 3. I suspect, for a lot of artists, mechanical application of some guidance might suffice. Where we might run into trouble (where intent would help) is what we do with artists like Les Claypool and his associated acts. Consider these: Les Claypool Les Claypool and The Holy Mackerel The Les Claypool Frog Brigade Colonel Claypool's Bucket of Bernie Brains I would say that our intent should be to make these artists neighbors. To meet such intent we might choose sort names that share a common root, like: Claypool, Les Claypool, Les and The Holy Mackerel Claypool, Les, The, Frog Brigade Claypool, Les, Colonel, Bucket of Bernie Brains Or, maybe they all have the same sort name of Claypool, Les. Notice that the neighborly intent drove us to choose sort names that we might not have in isolation. Now what happens when a different Les Claypool becomes a MB artist? I would think our neighborly intent would make it so that this 2nd Les Claypool didn't interrupt the series of 1st Les Claypool artists. Perhaps, this second artist would have a sort name of Claypool, Les (2). Anyway, I think intent is very important and will/should drive all of our other decisions. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
