Re: [mb-style] Release Country: What's preferred, Europe or all countries we can find even small evidence for?
On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 07:37, jacobbrett jacobbr...@hotmail.com wrote: Philip Jägenstedt wrote: On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 22:02, Simon Austin chi...@auzsoft.net wrote: In this edit, http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14510889 some want to move an existing German release event to Europe, and keep only one Europe release. I would disagree, but more eyes on it the better. I encounter the same problem when editing Chinese releases. Some albums have been released in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore with the same label and barcode. Sometimes they're printed in different places, but are otherwise identical. Having separate releases for these is way overkill IMO, as sometimes you'll have no way of telling from the physical release which MusicBrainz release it matches. As a general guideline, I'd want releases that have the same barcode, catalog number and track listing to only have one release in MusicBrainz. If it was released in multiple countries/regions, this should be represented in some other way than duplicating the whole release. I think that if they are distinguishable, for example, by being printed/manufactured in different locations for those different release countries, then they may be worth adding as separate releases. I disagree. I've seen releases which have the exact same packaging, barcode, catalog number and content but say Manufactured and printed in Taiwan vs Singapore or Hong Kong. Then there are some that are printed in Taiwan but have stickers that say only for sale in Hong Kong or Malaysia. While I wouldn't mind keeping track of the fact that something was released in several regions, duplicating releases in this situation seems way overkill to me. For now, I'm putting additional regions in annotations, and have even entered edits to merge releases like this: http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14527547 IMO, the strongest reason for this is that any change to one release would have be duplicated on the other, since the tracklisting, booklet and everything is identical. The only way to distinguish them is to buy one copy from each region and look at the fine print. Though, if it's the exact same pressing released in several neighbouring countries, then I consider that one release area and would recommend simply adding (in order): * Europe (if applicable to most of Europe), * the artist's country (if it is one of the countries that printing is released in), * the largest market/country of distribution (if released on the same date), or * the country of earliest release. I agree, and since there's no region for Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan and Singapore, I usually just use the artists region of origin. I think the correct fix here is to allow for several countries per release, but that annotations is perfectly acceptable. -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Release Country: What's preferred, Europe or all countries we can find even small evidence for?
On 30/05/2011 07:38, Philip Jägenstedt wrote: While I wouldn't mind keeping track of the fact that something was released in several regions, duplicating releases in this situation seems way overkill to me. For now, I'm putting additional regions in annotations, and have even entered edits to merge releases like this: http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14527547 IMO, the strongest reason for this is that any change to one release would have be duplicated on the other, since the tracklisting, booklet and everything is identical. The only way to distinguish them is to buy one copy from each region and look at the fine print. We're not duplicating releases though - at least no more than before. None of the edits I've seen have been rejecting new release events, just removing old ones. Perhaps the cause is because the release event is now higher in the chain... previously they were after the tracklist; now they're before - but in a list with all other tracklists for that release. To me what this boils down to is that you're deleting information because you don't like how it's displayed. And I don't think that should be the first option here, especially not so soon after NGS has been released. - Si ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Release Country: What's preferred, Europe or all countries we can find even small evidence for?
On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 14:24, Simon Austin chi...@auzsoft.net wrote: On 30/05/2011 07:38, Philip Jägenstedt wrote: While I wouldn't mind keeping track of the fact that something was released in several regions, duplicating releases in this situation seems way overkill to me. For now, I'm putting additional regions in annotations, and have even entered edits to merge releases like this: http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14527547 IMO, the strongest reason for this is that any change to one release would have be duplicated on the other, since the tracklisting, booklet and everything is identical. The only way to distinguish them is to buy one copy from each region and look at the fine print. We're not duplicating releases though - at least no more than before. None of the edits I've seen have been rejecting new release events, just removing old ones. Perhaps the cause is because the release event is now higher in the chain... previously they were after the tracklist; now they're before - but in a list with all other tracklists for that release. To me what this boils down to is that you're deleting information because you don't like how it's displayed. And I don't think that should be the first option here, especially not so soon after NGS has been released. This is not really new for NGS, but it is true that it was cheaper to have multiple release events before NGS, so there was less motivation to clean up incorrect or redundant release events. In my vocabulary, there really is just 1 release when two copies are identical in all respects (content, packaging, barcode, label, catalog number) except for where it was printed and sold. This is really different pressings/printings of the same release, not separate releases. I think the correct fix is to allow multiple countries on a single release, and have filed a feature request for that: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-2417 Until we have that, I think it is better, on balance, to keep this information in annotations. You're of course free to vote no to http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14527547 if you disagree. -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Release Country: What's preferred, Europe or all countries we can find even small evidence for?
Hello, On 30/05/11 17:14, Philip Jägenstedt wrote: In my vocabulary, there really is just 1 release when two copies are identical in all respects (content, packaging, barcode, label, catalog number) except for where it was printed and sold. This is really different pressings/printings of the same release, not separate releases. I think the correct fix is to allow multiple countries on a single release, and have filed a feature request for that: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-2417 Until we have that, I think it is better, on balance, to keep this information in annotations. You're of course free to vote no to http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14527547 if you disagree. Just wanted to express that I completely agree with this point of view. -- kuno / warp. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Release Country: What's preferred, Europe or all countries we can find even small evidence for?
On 05/30/2011 08:14 AM, Philip Jägenstedt wrote: This is not really new for NGS, but it is true that it was cheaper to have multiple release events before NGS, so there was less motivation to clean up incorrect or redundant release events. In my vocabulary, there really is just 1 release when two copies are identical in all respects (content, packaging, barcode, label, catalog number) except for where it was printed and sold. This is really different pressings/printings of the same release, not separate releases. I think the correct fix is to allow multiple countries on a single release, and have filed a feature request for that: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-2417 Until we have that, I think it is better, on balance, to keep this information in annotations. You're of course free to vote no to http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14527547 if you disagree. +1 for multiple release country and date Alex / caller#6 ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Release Country: What's preferred, Europe or all countries we can find even small evidence for?
Hallo, Simon Austin: In this edit, http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14510889 some want to move an existing German release event to Europe, and keep only one Europe release. I would disagree, but more eyes on it the better. Agreed (with your disagreement). By changing the release country to Europe means accepting that the information is incorrect for a good number of countries. I'd rather have only correct information for one specific country than accepting that. While hiding release dates (or making it pretty ugly to deal with them on a per-country basis) is a bad idea, generalizing the information so much that it's incorrect isn't the correct way to deal with this (as are multiple releases). -- Wieland / Mineo pgpyOUwUQB2vm.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Release Country: What's preferred, Europe or all countries we can find even small evidence for?
Philip Jägenstedt wrote: On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 22:02, Simon Austin lt;chi...@auzsoft.netgt; wrote: In this edit, http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14510889 some want to move an existing German release event to Europe, and keep only one Europe release. I would disagree, but more eyes on it the better. I encounter the same problem when editing Chinese releases. Some albums have been released in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore with the same label and barcode. Sometimes they're printed in different places, but are otherwise identical. Having separate releases for these is way overkill IMO, as sometimes you'll have no way of telling from the physical release which MusicBrainz release it matches. As a general guideline, I'd want releases that have the same barcode, catalog number and track listing to only have one release in MusicBrainz. If it was released in multiple countries/regions, this should be represented in some other way than duplicating the whole release. -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style I think that if they are distinguishable, for example, by being printed/manufactured in different locations for those different release countries, then they may be worth adding as separate releases. Though, if it's the exact same pressing released in several neighbouring countries, then I consider that one release area and would recommend simply adding (in order): *Europe (if applicable to most of Europe), *the artist's country (if it is one of the countries that printing is released in), *the largest market/country of distribution (if released on the same date), or *the country of earliest release. -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/Release-Country-What-s-preferred-Europe-or-all-countries-we-can-find-even-small-evidence-for-tp3556259p3559968.html Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Release Country: What's preferred, Europe or all countries we can find even small evidence for?
2011/5/27 Simon Austin chi...@auzsoft.net In this edit, http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14510889 some want to move an existing German release event to Europe, and keep only one Europe release. I would disagree, but more eyes on it the better. I wonder if NGS does not attempt to be too specific here. If a release (in the common meaning of the word) is issued on undistinguishable mediums in several countries at about the same time, entering those as separate releases seems exaggerated and this example illustrates this fact. The release (again in the common meaning) is at the same time German and from other countries, and it only happened to have been released on this day in Germany, on that other day in that other country. Pre-NGS was too global, NGS is too specific, reality is somewhere in the middle. But I can't think of any solution to this issue with the current database structure. -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Release Country: What's preferred, Europe or all countries we can find even small evidence for?
On 28/05/11 07:54, Frederic Da Vitoria wrote: 2011/5/27 Simon Austin chi...@auzsoft.net mailto:chi...@auzsoft.net In this edit, http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14510889 some want to move an existing German release event to Europe, and keep only one Europe release. I would disagree, but more eyes on it the better. I wonder if NGS does not attempt to be too specific here. If a release (in the common meaning of the word) is issued on undistinguishable mediums in several countries at about the same time, entering those as separate releases seems exaggerated and this example illustrates this fact. The release (again in the common meaning) is at the same time German and from other countries, and it only happened to have been released on this day in Germany, on that other day in that other country. Pre-NGS was too global, NGS is too specific, reality is somewhere in the middle. But I can't think of any solution to this issue with the current database structure. Multiple countries per release date with matching cat #/barcode (as mentioned in the bug nikki linked to) would work. Like how labels now work. - Si ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Release Country: What's preferred, Europe or all countries we can find even small evidence for?
Simon Austin-3 wrote: Multiple countries per release date with matching cat #/barcode (as mentioned in the bug nikki linked to) would work. Like how labels now work. +1 i guess imho release country is often just indeterminable. i use the origin of the release label (or sometimes artist) or just leave it blank although i bought it in switzerland or austria. personally i would favour to get rid of this field completely. label and release date is sufficient and brings enough relevant information. different release dates in different countries always come with a different (sub)label (at least what i have noticed). -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/Release-Country-What-s-preferred-Europe-or-all-countries-we-can-find-even-small-evidence-for-tp3556259p3557370.html Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Release Country: What's preferred, Europe or all countries we can find even small evidence for?
On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 22:02, Simon Austin chi...@auzsoft.net wrote: In this edit, http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14510889 some want to move an existing German release event to Europe, and keep only one Europe release. I would disagree, but more eyes on it the better. I encounter the same problem when editing Chinese releases. Some albums have been released in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore with the same label and barcode. Sometimes they're printed in different places, but are otherwise identical. Having separate releases for these is way overkill IMO, as sometimes you'll have no way of telling from the physical release which MusicBrainz release it matches. As a general guideline, I'd want releases that have the same barcode, catalog number and track listing to only have one release in MusicBrainz. If it was released in multiple countries/regions, this should be represented in some other way than duplicating the whole release. -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Release Country: What's preferred, Europe or all countries we can find even small evidence for?
By the way, a ticket was recently opened which is related to the problem in that edit - http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-2229 On the ticket, Chad reckons it needs discussion on this mailing list so I'm pointing it out here. ;) Nikki Simon Austin wrote: In this edit, http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14510889 some want to move an existing German release event to Europe, and keep only one Europe release. I would disagree, but more eyes on it the better. - Si ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
