Re: simple formatting possibilities
On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 01:06:48PM -0400, Mark H. Wood wrote: > Things like HTML and PDF are designed for finalized documents. PDF, yes. But historically, TimBL very much designed HTML for revisable documents. (Sadly, as was already pointed out earlier in the thread, many people are unwilling to learn how to edit HTML. TimBL accounted for numerous stumbling blocks the Web might face, but is I think still taken aback by the many regrettable vagaries of human psychology.) -- A: When it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: When is top-posting a bad thing? () ASCII ribbon campaign. Please avoid HTML emails & proprietary /\ file formats. (Why? See e.g. https://v.gd/jrmGbS ). Thank you.
Re: simple formatting possibilities
On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 01:06:48PM -0400, Mark H. Wood wrote: > On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 07:32:03PM -0600, Akkana Peck wrote: > > Derek Martin writes: > > > Your only option for this which would have widespread support would > > > be HTML. It is *possible* to generate such messages and send them > > > with Mutt. It's just not very easy or user-friendly. > > > > I agree (and the thread you reference is very worthwhile reading). > > But be warned that people who are used to doing everything in Word > > documents might not be as amenable to HTML as you might think. > > ... > > Well, yes. I think it's helpful to keep in mind the distinction > between revisable and final formats. > > Things like .docx and ODF are designed for revisable documents. > Share these when you want collaborative editing or annotation. IMHO > these are very poor formats for distributing finalized documents. > > Things like HTML and PDF are designed for finalized documents. Share > these when you just need to disseminate a completed work. Altering > documents in these formats is a matter for experts, and some in your > audience may not be that kind of experts. > > It's easy to edit documents in a revisable format until they are > satisfactory, and then render the finished content in a final format > (or multiple final formats) for publication. Good point Mark. And certainly my need is distribution of a finalized document. I've kinda decided to create the 2 columns of seating assignments using a text editor and shell tools. This will be the main part of the email msg body. That will also be pasted into an "odt" document, some formatting and boiler plate added, then exported as a "pdf" for attachment to the email. Thanks for all your input. Jon -- Jon H. LaBadie j...@labadie.us 11226 South Shore Rd. (703) 787-0688 (H) Reston, VA 20190 (703) 935-6720 (C)
Re: simple formatting possibilities
On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 07:32:03PM -0600, Akkana Peck wrote: > Derek Martin writes: > > Your only option for this which would have widespread support would > > be HTML. It is *possible* to generate such messages and send them > > with Mutt. It's just not very easy or user-friendly. > > I agree (and the thread you reference is very worthwhile reading). > But be warned that people who are used to doing everything in Word > documents might not be as amenable to HTML as you might think. > > I mean, Gmail (as well as local mailers like Thunderbird and Apple > Mail) give you an HTML editor, so that should be a no-brainer, > right? Right? > > But a while back, I tried to get some people in a nonprofit I work > with to accept meeting minutes in HTML rather than Word -- and it > was a complete disaster. None of them could figure out how to edit > the HTML file, even when it was sent inline in HTML format. > I think the blockquotes used for quoting was messing them up. > Or something. It's not like you can get them to explain why they're > freaking out and saying "HOW DO I ADD MY COMMENTS?!!" Well, yes. I think it's helpful to keep in mind the distinction between revisable and final formats. Things like .docx and ODF are designed for revisable documents. Share these when you want collaborative editing or annotation. IMHO these are very poor formats for distributing finalized documents. Things like HTML and PDF are designed for finalized documents. Share these when you just need to disseminate a completed work. Altering documents in these formats is a matter for experts, and some in your audience may not be that kind of experts. It's easy to edit documents in a revisable format until they are satisfactory, and then render the finished content in a final format (or multiple final formats) for publication. -- Mark H. Wood Lead Technology Analyst University Library Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis 755 W. Michigan Street Indianapolis, IN 46202 317-274-0749 www.ulib.iupui.edu signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: simple formatting possibilities
Dear Ms. Peck, I feel your pain. Last week I was sent the lovely slides from a presentation by an administrator at my university. They were sent as an e-mail attachment in Microsoft PowerPoint 2007+ format, a 17,738,899-byte attachment. I found that running doc2pdf followed by pdftotext reduced it to a 5592-byte text file (with no loss of information). And if you found your colleagues resistant to editing HTML, try getting them to use e-mail encryption. Hilarious experience. I suppose it would solve the OP's problem if there were some e-mail protocol that allowed the sender to specify that the e-mail should be displayed using the default fixed-width font on the recipient's computer (maybe something akin to including an "AddType text/plain" directive in the .htaccess file on an Apache Web server). I notice the Thunderbird preferences include options "Allow messages to use other fonts" and "Use fixed width font for plain text messages." So it seems that even on this relatively good e-mail client, the user has to opt in to read messages in Courier 10 font or similar. Best regards, Greg Marks > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 19:32:03 -0600 > From: Akkana Peck > To: mutt-users@mutt.org > Subject: Re: simple formatting possibilities > Message-ID: <20200830013203.gh2...@shallowsky.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Derek Martin writes: > > Your only option for this which would have widespread support would > > be HTML. It is *possible* to generate such messages and send them > > with Mutt. It's just not very easy or user-friendly. > > I agree (and the thread you reference is very worthwhile reading). > But be warned that people who are used to doing everything in Word > documents might not be as amenable to HTML as you might think. > > I mean, Gmail (as well as local mailers like Thunderbird and Apple > Mail) give you an HTML editor, so that should be a no-brainer, > right? Right? > > But a while back, I tried to get some people in a nonprofit I work > with to accept meeting minutes in HTML rather than Word -- and it > was a complete disaster. None of them could figure out how to edit > the HTML file, even when it was sent inline in HTML format. > I think the blockquotes used for quoting was messing them up. > Or something. It's not like you can get them to explain why they're > freaking out and saying "HOW DO I ADD MY COMMENTS?!!" > > Hopefully your (the original poster's) experience will be better > than mine. It's crazy that in 2020, there's no simple rich-text > format that non-technical users on every platform can edit; but > that seems to be the state of things. > > One possibility (this didn't work for my group, but maybe with > enough pushing, it could) is using some sort of WYSIWYG online > collaborative editor like Google Docs (or an open-source alternative). > You could probably set up your tables there and people could edit them. > > ...Akkana signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: simple formatting possibilities
Derek Martin writes: > Your only option for this which would have widespread support would > be HTML. It is *possible* to generate such messages and send them > with Mutt. It's just not very easy or user-friendly. I agree (and the thread you reference is very worthwhile reading). But be warned that people who are used to doing everything in Word documents might not be as amenable to HTML as you might think. I mean, Gmail (as well as local mailers like Thunderbird and Apple Mail) give you an HTML editor, so that should be a no-brainer, right? Right? But a while back, I tried to get some people in a nonprofit I work with to accept meeting minutes in HTML rather than Word -- and it was a complete disaster. None of them could figure out how to edit the HTML file, even when it was sent inline in HTML format. I think the blockquotes used for quoting was messing them up. Or something. It's not like you can get them to explain why they're freaking out and saying "HOW DO I ADD MY COMMENTS?!!" Hopefully your (the original poster's) experience will be better than mine. It's crazy that in 2020, there's no simple rich-text format that non-technical users on every platform can edit; but that seems to be the state of things. One possibility (this didn't work for my group, but maybe with enough pushing, it could) is using some sort of WYSIWYG online collaborative editor like Google Docs (or an open-source alternative). You could probably set up your tables there and people could edit them. ...Akkana
Re: simple formatting possibilities
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 03:57:04PM -0400, Jon LaBadie wrote: ... > > I fear I've mislead the list readers. I'm not looking to show some > thing analagous to a bridge game or hand. Much more basic than that. > > Currently I send out an email with a paragraph or two of text followed > by lines like: > >Table 1 > N: Geo Washington (host) > E: John Adams > S: Tom Jefferson > W: James Madison > > Similar lines to those would follow for 6 or 7 tables. We will now be > playing 2 sessions each night and I have to double the number of tables. > It would be nice to be able to do it in 2 columns, like: > > Table 1 Table 1 > N: Geo Washington (host)N: Geo Washington (host) > E: John Adams E: James Monroe > S: Tom JeffersonS: J.Q. Adams > W: James MadisonW: Andrew Jackson > > > You viewing it in mutt inside a terminal window probably see two > nicely aligned columns. But readers using thunderbird, outlook, > etc. would not because of the proportional spacing. > > As I'm asking about something for formatting, I threw on to the > dream list things like "bold" font. Not a solution I would use, but I created the above two column sequence in thunderbird. I did the two "Table 1" headings as Bold and Underlined the two words "host". Then sent it to myself at several email accounts. Thunderbird created a 2 part message, text and html. Those MUA's that understood html showed fine. That included mutt and w3m. Viewing the text section with mutt was good on all but the lines with font changes. The "Table 1" line and the Geo Washington lines were shifted full left (no indentation) and had no spacing between the two columns. Thanks for all the input, I'll take any more you have. Right now I'm thinking of composing in LibreOffice and exporting to a pdf. Yes it may require a separate viewing program by the recipients, but I've more confidence they can view .pdf than .docx. Jon -- Jon H. LaBadie j...@labadie.us 11226 South Shore Rd. (703) 787-0688 (H) Reston, VA 20190 (703) 935-6720 (C)
Re: simple formatting possibilities
On 29Aug2020 08:34, Cameron Simpson wrote: >On 27Aug2020 18:49, Hokan wrote: >>I looked at this message in Thunderbird and the columns aligned just >>fine. I checked the Thunderbird config and there is a checkbox for >>"Use fixed width font for plain text messages" > >Aye. I'm surprised it isn't a default - there are some very nice looking >fixed width fonts. Apple Mail (on MacOS Catalina) defaults to a fixed with font for plain text messages. I think I want a more pleasant font though. I've attached a small screenshot; Jon's table looks aligned. Cheers, Cameron Simpson
Re: simple formatting possibilities
On 27Aug2020 18:49, Hokan wrote: >I looked at this message in Thunderbird and the columns aligned just >fine. I checked the Thunderbird config and there is a checkbox for >"Use fixed width font for plain text messages" Aye. I'm surprised it isn't a default - there are some very nice looking fixed width fonts. >Similarly, Outlook seems to display plain-text messages with a fixed- >width font, but I'm not really an Outlook user so I don't know where >that's configured. > >Gmail, on the other hand, seems to use variable fonts. I found an >option to default to fixed font but the columns in the quoted message >still didn't line up. I guess that option is for composing messages? Looks like, if we're looking at the same thing. I only found the one setting, in the General settings. GMail's just awful. >I suppose most people use Gmail and other web-based email now-a-days >and maybe the others are similarly poorly behaved. Yeah, that is my impression too. Even people out here, where satellite is common and access is thus _very_ laggy, use gmail on the web instead of via a local reader (TBird, LookOut, whatever) that fetches behind the scenes. I suspect the best way forward is a composition mode with pleasant fixed with support that will draw an HTML table in a text/html alternative part. There've been a few threads on settings for this, IIRC. On a personal basis I've be very happy with an (activatable) mode to compose in markdown for those few occasions I really want some formatting, which resulted in a 3 way multipart/alternative message: plain, markdown, html. An ad hoc page of interest: https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/create-markdown-table/ Cheers, Cameron Simpson
Re: simple formatting possibilities
I looked at this message in Thunderbird and the columns aligned just fine. I checked the Thunderbird config and there is a checkbox for "Use fixed width font for plain text messages" Similarly, Outlook seems to display plain-text messages with a fixed- width font, but I'm not really an Outlook user so I don't know where that's configured. Gmail, on the other hand, seems to use variable fonts. I found an option to default to fixed font but the columns in the quoted message still didn't line up. I guess that option is for composing messages? I suppose most people use Gmail and other web-based email now-a-days and maybe the others are similarly poorly behaved. > > It would be nice to be able to do it in 2 columns, like: > > > > Table 1 Table 1 > > N: Geo Washington (host)N: Geo Washington (host) > > E: John Adams E: James Monroe > > S: Tom JeffersonS: J.Q. Adams > > W: James MadisonW: Andrew Jackson > > > > > > You viewing it in mutt inside a terminal window probably see two > > nicely aligned columns. But readers using thunderbird, outlook, > > etc. would not because of the proportional spacing. -- Hokan Bicyclist Sysadmin signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: simple formatting possibilities
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 01:40:08AM -0400, Jon LaBadie wrote: > I don't like the attachment approach but the formatting (minimal, > bold, alignment,?) he uses and the 2 column arrangement would be useful. > Of course, my using constant width characters and spaces kills > any alignment my recipients would see with their proportional fonts > and spaces. Your only option for this which would have widespread support would be HTML. It is *possible* to generate such messages and send them with Mutt. It's just not very easy or user-friendly. Not all that long ago I posted in a thread about how I lamented the lack of native support for HTML mail, though I think that would just about require that Mutt be given a GUI interface to be maximally effective (which I also would like, so long as the text-based interface remained). However, in that thread several people posted about how they handle composing HTML messages. You might search the archives for that. -- Derek D. Martinhttp://www.pizzashack.org/ GPG Key ID: 0xDFBEAD02 -=-=-=-=- This message is posted from an invalid address. Replying to it will result in undeliverable mail due to spam prevention. Sorry for the inconvenience. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: simple formatting possibilities
Il 27 agosto 2020 alle 15:24 Greg Marks ha scritto: > But I don't think that is quite what Mr. LaBadie is seeking. I think, > but am not quite sure, that he could use the Unix command "column" > to produce the sort of ASCII formatting he wants. It would help to > see an example of the sort of Word document he's trying to reproduce > with UTF-8. Incidentally, the programs "antiword" and "abiword" can > be used to convert Word documents to text. The stumbling block for me is «tabular» layout. Cards and font formatting (bold, italic, etc.) are doable with some trickery in pure Unicode, but this Il 27 agosto 2020 alle 15:57 Jon LaBadie ha scritto: > It would be nice to be able to do it in 2 columns, like: > > Table 1 Table 1 > N: Geo Washington (host)N: Geo Washington (host) > E: John Adams E: James Monroe > S: Tom JeffersonS: J.Q. Adams > W: James MadisonW: Andrew Jackson > > > You viewing it in mutt inside a terminal window probably see two > nicely aligned columns. But readers using thunderbird, outlook, > etc. would not because of the proportional spacing. is not if you do not «force» or «require» a fixed-width font form the client. You could with HTML, but then it is simpler to write in markdown, invoke pandoc, attach the HTML — or even just plainly render the table to .jpg.
Re: simple formatting possibilities
> As I recall, there is a LaTeX package for drawing a chess diagram, > so I would expect there also is a LaTeX package for drawing a bridge > diagram. There is such a LaTeX package: grbbridge. But I don't think that is quite what Mr. LaBadie is seeking. I think, but am not quite sure, that he could use the Unix command "column" to produce the sort of ASCII formatting he wants. It would help to see an example of the sort of Word document he's trying to reproduce with UTF-8. Incidentally, the programs "antiword" and "abiword" can be used to convert Word documents to text. Best regards, Greg Marks signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: simple formatting possibilities
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 01:40:08AM -0400, Jon LaBadie wrote: > For so long I've used mutt and composed my emails in ASCII, > now I guess Unicode, that I'm ignorant of potential approaches > to a bit of formatted text. > > Both a friend and I organize weekly online bridge games for > 20-30 players. My seating notices go out as simple text. He > creates a 2 column Word document and includes it as an attachment. > Players who wish to see his seatings must use an external office > suite to view the attachment. > > I don't like the attachment approach but the formatting (minimal, > bold, alignment,?) he uses and the 2 column arrangement would be useful. > Of course, my using constant width characters and spaces kills > any alignment my recipients would see with their proportional fonts > and spaces. > > Is there anything I could use to create such "formated text", then > distribute it in the body of a mutt message having some hope that > the recipients see it correctly? > I fear I've mislead the list readers. I'm not looking to show some thing analagous to a bridge game or hand. Much more basic than that. Currently I send out an email with a paragraph or two of text followed by lines like: Table 1 N: Geo Washington (host) E: John Adams S: Tom Jefferson W: James Madison Similar lines to those would follow for 6 or 7 tables. We will now be playing 2 sessions each night and I have to double the number of tables. It would be nice to be able to do it in 2 columns, like: Table 1 Table 1 N: Geo Washington (host)N: Geo Washington (host) E: John Adams E: James Monroe S: Tom JeffersonS: J.Q. Adams W: James MadisonW: Andrew Jackson You viewing it in mutt inside a terminal window probably see two nicely aligned columns. But readers using thunderbird, outlook, etc. would not because of the proportional spacing. As I'm asking about something for formatting, I threw on to the dream list things like "bold" font. Sorry for any confusion. I probably will look into PGN because I do somethings email about hands I've played, etc. Jon -- Jon H. LaBadie j...@jgcomp.com 11226 South Shore Rd. (703) 787-0688 (H) Reston, VA 20190 (703) 935-6720 (C)
Re: simple formatting possibilities
On 20200827, Jon LaBadie wrote: Is there anything I could use to create such "formated text", then distribute it in the body of a mutt message having some hope that the recipients see it correctly? Would Emacs' "picture" mode help? It initializes a text "area" in overwrite mode instead of insert mode, so whatever you type replaces what you type over, and arrow keys navigate around the picture area. I never used it much, haven't used it recently enough to remember the details, but it was extremely simple to use. -- ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._. Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman & wood chipper / fe...@crowfix.com GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E 6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933 I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o
Re: simple formatting possibilities
Il 27 agosto 2020 alle 01:40 Jon LaBadie ha scritto: > I don't like the attachment approach but the formatting (minimal, > bold, alignment,?) he uses and the 2 column arrangement would be useful. > Of course, my using constant width characters and spaces kills > any alignment my recipients would see with their proportional fonts > and spaces. > > Is there anything I could use to create such "formated text", then > distribute it in the body of a mutt message having some hope that > the recipients see it correctly? Hello Jon, tough one. - you could use — e.g. — GIMP or LaTeX to create a picture which you attach to the message. This works on every machine/client the recipient is using, but fails your «distribute it in the body of a mutt» criterion; - mathematical Unicode blocks [1] have some styled lettering (bold, italic, etc.); there are also blocks for playing cards symbols. You could abuse those — with the help of xcompose or translating scripts [2] — to hack some formatting into your messages. Unfortunately, I do not think it is possible to obtain «alignment» with this method in a way that is rendered correctly on every client. I hope this helps even a bit; I am curious to see the solutions proposed by other mutters —F [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_Alphanumeric_Symbols#Latin_letters [2] https://boldtext.io/
Re: simple formatting possibilities
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 07:00:52AM +, Russell L. Harris wrote: I would expect something of the sort exists for the bridge community. A search on "portable game notation for bridge" brings up numerous hits; at first glance, this hit appears to be promising and authoritative: http://82.95.226.114/dokuwiki/doku.php/bridge/pbn
Re: simple formatting possibilities
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 01:40:08AM -0400, Jon LaBadie wrote: Both a friend and I organize weekly online bridge games for 20-30 players. My seating notices go out as simple text. He ... I don't like the attachment approach but the formatting (minimal, bold, alignment,?) he uses and the 2 column arrangement would be useful. ... Is there anything I could use to create such "formated text", then distribute it in the body of a mutt message having some hope that the recipients see it correctly? I know nothing about bridge, but years ago, when there was such a thing as a newspaper, I always looked at the chess column, which appeared on the same page as the bridge column. The chess column typically presented a puzzle, in the form of a graphical diagram. I seem to recall seeing something similar in the bridge column. As I recall, there is a LaTeX package for drawing a chess diagram, so I would expect there also is a LaTeX package for drawing a bridge diagram. Also, the chess community long ago developed a simple standard called "Portable Game Notation" (PGN) which facilitates postal-chess-via-email as well as capture, transmittal, and analysis of games, either in-progress or complete. Computer chess packages typically read and write PGN files, some even automatically extract PGN from email messages. Again, I would expect something of the sort exists for the bridge community. RLH
simple formatting possibilities
For so long I've used mutt and composed my emails in ASCII, now I guess Unicode, that I'm ignorant of potential approaches to a bit of formatted text. Both a friend and I organize weekly online bridge games for 20-30 players. My seating notices go out as simple text. He creates a 2 column Word document and includes it as an attachment. Players who wish to see his seatings must use an external office suite to view the attachment. I don't like the attachment approach but the formatting (minimal, bold, alignment,?) he uses and the 2 column arrangement would be useful. Of course, my using constant width characters and spaces kills any alignment my recipients would see with their proportional fonts and spaces. Is there anything I could use to create such "formated text", then distribute it in the body of a mutt message having some hope that the recipients see it correctly? Jon -- Jon H. LaBadie j...@labadie.us 11226 South Shore Rd. (703) 787-0688 (H) Reston, VA 20190 (703) 935-6720 (C)
