[Nanog-futures] NANOG Transition - How we got here
Hi all - I spoke up at the community meeting and during the NANOG Transition BOF at NANOG, trying to get a better understanding of what was happening with NANOG. I asked a few questions, and admittedly got caught up in the moment during some of the discussions. A couple folks got the impression that I was AGAINST the transition. To be clear - - - I am NOT against the transition (of NANOG from a Merit activity to a new organization more tightly directed by elected members of the community). My issues are with how we got here. As I stated before, in the first Steering Committee I was pushing for the same thing (See slide 12 Actual Results of my NANOGHIstory slides from NANOG 37 back in 2007). The idea that the elected Steering Committee was merely an advisory role or meeting attendee advocate role just didn't seem rational - it provided the 'transparency' but lacked the 'accountability' aspect that we all required from the post-NANOG revolution phase. As several folks mentioned, there are indeed different interests at play between Merit and the NANOG community, as there in any partnership. My feeling was (and is) that this advisory form of Steering Committee-Merit relationship is not as effective as it needs to be. So the end state of some form of self-governed NANOG can be better. At this NANOG I had conversations with the NANOG Steering Committee members and the Merit folks about what led to this immediate transition. Based on what I learned, we have here is a classic inter-group conflict that could have been better handled with a mediator and informal discussions. The goals should have been ensuring buy in to cooperative transition, defining a plan and timeline for an orderly and coordinated community-driven transition plan. As is typical, the rationale from both sides included exaggerated perceptions about motivations and many assumptions about how the other side would react to various actions. In any case, instead, both sides have left the community with a transition where 1) the broader community was not brought along for the ride with identified problems and proposed solutions, it was a 'done deal' (this would have taken time) 2) the plan for this new NANOG was not shared broadly with the community (was not really developed fully), and yet 3) both sides agree the transition HAS TO HAPPEN now. So, as a community member, my opinion is that we lost an opportunity to do something really cool here: we could have taken the time to develop a newer and better NANOG organization while demonstrating the principles that led to the first revolution: transparency, accountability, as a newer, better NANOG, all done in a community-driven fashion. This would have taken time and some work, but it would have been pretty cool. But the past doesn't matter now, so Where are we now? Fundamentally, we all agree that the transition will happen, it will happen in a couple NANOGs, we all want it to be a success, we will try some new untested things. Just wanted to share where I am coming from, and I agree that the discussion should now be about what we should do. I look forward to that. Bill Sidenote - I would share in some of the blame in that we in the Steering Committees to date did not candidly describe some of these frictions in our meeting minutes; instead we all glossed over differences, and patted ourselves on the back for the progress and success of the meetings. It would have been helpful feedback back to the community how this SC-PC-MLC-NANOG experiment actually worked and where it didn't. As a result of lack of candor, we have nothing to point to, nothing for the successor SC to review that highlighted relationship challenges, what was tried to overcome those challenges, etc... in short, there is an absence of institutional memory for the future SCs and the community to highlight the problems and why the transition is the best solution to the problems identified. ___ Nanog-futures mailing list Nanog-futures@nanog.org https://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog-futures
Re: [Nanog-futures] NANOG Transition - How we got here
My issues are with how we got here. i have similar 'issues'. quite serious ones. when i find a time machine, i plan to deal with them, among many other things. randy ___ Nanog-futures mailing list Nanog-futures@nanog.org https://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog-futures
Re: [Nanog-futures] NANOG Transition - How we got here
_All_ of the theoretically newnog presentations including the pro forma presentation from 49 are still not online. If they are, they aren't in the usual places (next to the agenda item). Sunday is. Monday is not. Best, -M On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Randy Bush ra...@psg.com wrote: My issues are with how we got here. i have similar 'issues'. quite serious ones. when i find a time machine, i plan to deal with them, among many other things. randy ___ Nanog-futures mailing list Nanog-futures@nanog.org https://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog-futures ___ Nanog-futures mailing list Nanog-futures@nanog.org https://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog-futures
RE: Re: BGP Tool for Simulation
You could use load sbgp/mrtd script to load route dumps. There is also bgpsimple http://code.google.com/p/bgpsimple/wiki/README This also brings up another question, anyone know of v6 rib tool on unix to load v6 route dumps. Tks, Patrick. Message: 8 Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 22:04:54 -0400 From: Jack Carrozzo j...@crepinc.com Subject: Re: BGP Tool for Simulation To: giulian...@uol.com.br Cc: North American Network Operators Group na...@merit.edu Message-ID: aanlktik_imlcu-gbwjim4vbqt0bteead6afnbbtn9...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Roll quagga / BGPd on *nix and bring up sessions with whatever you like. For full tables, you can either hack up a few lines of perl to output a bunch of 'network a.b.c.d' lines from any of the available text looking glasses into the bgpd conf, or just bring up ebgp-multihop session with one of your borders or one of your friends. Prefix lists, communities, etc are all supported. -Jack Carrozzo On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 9:32 PM, GIULIANOCM (UOL) giulian...@uol.com.brwrote: People, I am looking for a tool (free or not) to simulate BGP full internet route table peering and injection using real CISCO and JUNIPER routers. We have found some power tools like Spirent or Agilent but they are a too expensive to acquire for now. The main idea is to have a software tool for unix or linux system, that supports to simulate a cloud a carrier or an ISP, to work with real routers, establishing connection using BGP protocol and injecting on this real routers the full internet routing table - ipv4 or ipv6. Do you know some collection of tools (software tools) that we can use to do this kind of work ? It is possible to collect full internet routing table and inject it to a real router using a software for simulate real conditions ? Besides, the tool will need some additional features in simulation like the set of communities, local preference, med and other BGP attributes. What do you recommend for this tasks ? Thanks a lot, Giuliano -- ___ NANOG mailing list NANOG@nanog.org https://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog End of NANOG Digest, Vol 29, Issue 79 *
Re: BGP Tool for Simulation
I recently came across NetKit that seems to offer what you are looking for... http://wiki.netkit.org/index.php/Main_Page L. On Jun 28, 2010, at 12:32 , Lynchehaun, Patrick (Patrick) wrote: You could use load sbgp/mrtd script to load route dumps. There is also bgpsimple http://code.google.com/p/bgpsimple/wiki/README This also brings up another question, anyone know of v6 rib tool on unix to load v6 route dumps. Tks, Patrick. Message: 8 Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 22:04:54 -0400 From: Jack Carrozzo j...@crepinc.com Subject: Re: BGP Tool for Simulation To: giulian...@uol.com.br Cc: North American Network Operators Group na...@merit.edu Message-ID: aanlktik_imlcu-gbwjim4vbqt0bteead6afnbbtn9...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Roll quagga / BGPd on *nix and bring up sessions with whatever you like. For full tables, you can either hack up a few lines of perl to output a bunch of 'network a.b.c.d' lines from any of the available text looking glasses into the bgpd conf, or just bring up ebgp-multihop session with one of your borders or one of your friends. Prefix lists, communities, etc are all supported. -Jack Carrozzo On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 9:32 PM, GIULIANOCM (UOL) giulian...@uol.com.brwrote: People, I am looking for a tool (free or not) to simulate BGP full internet route table peering and injection using real CISCO and JUNIPER routers. We have found some power tools like Spirent or Agilent but they are a too expensive to acquire for now. The main idea is to have a software tool for unix or linux system, that supports to simulate a cloud a carrier or an ISP, to work with real routers, establishing connection using BGP protocol and injecting on this real routers the full internet routing table - ipv4 or ipv6. Do you know some collection of tools (software tools) that we can use to do this kind of work ? It is possible to collect full internet routing table and inject it to a real router using a software for simulate real conditions ? Besides, the tool will need some additional features in simulation like the set of communities, local preference, med and other BGP attributes. What do you recommend for this tasks ? Thanks a lot, Giuliano -- ___ NANOG mailing list NANOG@nanog.org https://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog End of NANOG Digest, Vol 29, Issue 79 *
Re: BGP Tool for Simulation
Hello Giuliano, Along with the recommendation of dynamips, I would suggest downloading gns3, which ties into dynamips. You can run the same version of IOS that you are working with in production, and there are versions for Windows/*nix. http://www.gns3.net/ It acts more like an emulators at first glance, and does not seem to have the same limitations as some of the other simulators out there. Just make sure you have the hardware to support it. Thanks, --- Tom Pipes T6 Broadband/ Essex Telcom Inc tom.pi...@t6mail.com - Original Message - From: Bill Fehring li...@billfehring.com To: giulian...@uol.com.br Cc: North American Network Operators Group na...@merit.edu Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 11:37:17 PM Subject: Re: BGP Tool for Simulation Oi Giulianao, I've used this in the past to dump a lot of routes into test networks: http://code.google.com/p/bgpsimple/ Tutorial: http://evilrouters.net/2009/08/21/getting-bgp-routes-into-dynamips-with-video/ There's a similar project written in python, but I can't find it right now. HTH, -Bill Fehring On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 18:32, GIULIANOCM (UOL) giulian...@uol.com.br wrote: People, I am looking for a tool (free or not) to simulate BGP full internet route table peering and injection using real CISCO and JUNIPER routers. We have found some power tools like Spirent or Agilent but they are a too expensive to acquire for now. The main idea is to have a software tool for unix or linux system, that supports to simulate a cloud a carrier or an ISP, to work with real routers, establishing connection using BGP protocol and injecting on this real routers the full internet routing table - ipv4 or ipv6. Do you know some collection of tools (software tools) that we can use to do this kind of work ? It is possible to collect full internet routing table and inject it to a real router using a software for simulate real conditions ? Besides, the tool will need some additional features in simulation like the set of communities, local preference, med and other BGP attributes. What do you recommend for this tasks ? Thanks a lot, Giuliano
Penetration test vendors
I would like to thank everyone who provided their recommendations both on and off list. There was a lot of off-list response but not exactly what I had expected to see. I had expected to see a lot of different vendors but also expected to see a couple that several would recommend. That really didn't happen. Practically every single suggestion was a different vendor. There was one vendor that got multiple recommendations but it was also the only vendor that multiple people recommended avoiding. In fact, it was the only vendor that anyone recommended to avoid. As I now have a list of many vendors that I didn't know existed, I will sort through the mail later today or tomorrow and consolidate the list. The lesson seems to be that everyone seems to have someone different that they trust to test their network and that a more in-depth look at the recommendations is in order. Thanks again, everyone. George
Re: BGP Tool for Simulation
These folks make a tester that loads up BGP very nicely. http://www.spirent.com/ http://www.spirent.com/Solutions-Directory/Smartbits.aspx Chris On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 8:52 AM, Tom Pipes tom.pi...@t6mail.com wrote: Hello Giuliano, Along with the recommendation of dynamips, I would suggest downloading gns3, which ties into dynamips. You can run the same version of IOS that you are working with in production, and there are versions for Windows/*nix. http://www.gns3.net/ It acts more like an emulators at first glance, and does not seem to have the same limitations as some of the other simulators out there. Just make sure you have the hardware to support it. Thanks, --- Tom Pipes T6 Broadband/ Essex Telcom Inc tom.pi...@t6mail.com - Original Message - From: Bill Fehring li...@billfehring.com To: giulian...@uol.com.br Cc: North American Network Operators Group na...@merit.edu Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 11:37:17 PM Subject: Re: BGP Tool for Simulation Oi Giulianao, I've used this in the past to dump a lot of routes into test networks: http://code.google.com/p/bgpsimple/ Tutorial: http://evilrouters.net/2009/08/21/getting-bgp-routes-into-dynamips-with-video/ There's a similar project written in python, but I can't find it right now. HTH, -Bill Fehring On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 18:32, GIULIANOCM (UOL) giulian...@uol.com.br wrote: People, I am looking for a tool (free or not) to simulate BGP full internet route table peering and injection using real CISCO and JUNIPER routers. We have found some power tools like Spirent or Agilent but they are a too expensive to acquire for now. The main idea is to have a software tool for unix or linux system, that supports to simulate a cloud a carrier or an ISP, to work with real routers, establishing connection using BGP protocol and injecting on this real routers the full internet routing table - ipv4 or ipv6. Do you know some collection of tools (software tools) that we can use to do this kind of work ? It is possible to collect full internet routing table and inject it to a real router using a software for simulate real conditions ? Besides, the tool will need some additional features in simulation like the set of communities, local preference, med and other BGP attributes. What do you recommend for this tasks ? Thanks a lot, Giuliano
Global Crossing POC
Can someone from Global Crossing contact me off-list regarding some routing anomolies we are seeing? Thanks. -- To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy
Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network?
On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 9:03 AM, Jonathan Feldman j...@feldman.org wrote: I'm one of the reporters who covers broadband and cloud computing for InformationWeek magazine (www.informationweek.com), and it's interesting to me that one of the issues with cloud adoption has to do with the limited pipe networks available in this country. For example, it's not feasible to do a massive data load through the networks that are currently available -- you need to FedEx a hard drive to Amazon. Holy cow, it's SneakerNet for the 21st Century! is this a 'this country' bandwidth problem or the problem that moving 10tb of 'corporate data' in a 'secure fashion' from 'office' to 'cloud' really isn't a simple task? and that cutting a DB over at a point in time 'next tuesday!' is far easier done by shipping a point-in-time copy of the DB via sata-drive than 'holy cow copy this over the corp ds3, while we make sure not to kill it for mail/web/etc other corporate normal uses' ? The broadband plan stuff mostly covers consumers, not enterprises, most of the (amazon as the example here) cloud folks offer disk-delivery options for businesses. you seem to be comparing apples to oranges, no? -chris
Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network?
On 27/06/2010 14:03, Jonathan Feldman wrote: For example, it's not feasible to do a massive data load through the networks that are currently available -- you need to FedEx a hard drive to Amazon. Holy cow, it's SneakerNet for the 21st Century! Never underestimate the bandwidth of a stationwagon full of $current_high_density_storage_media. Nick
Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network?
More than one person has pointed out that offline media will always be higher bandwidth than transmission lines (but nobody with such elegance and hilarity as Nick Hilliard's last post). Point taken. The question, in my mind, is whether it's reasonable to ask that regional providers reach the same bar as privately owned campus networks. I don't agree with you, Christopher, that the broadband plan won't affect corporate users. I know that this list _mostly_ consists of operators, but I've gotten some offline responses to my initial query that seem to indicate that enterprise users utilize SOHO (consumer grade, but with higher speeds) for various branch office needs. Also, when a technology gets consumerized it tends to create interesting effects in terms of features and price points. Think of it this way: where would corporate mobile phones be without the consumer effect? We'd still be carrying them around in bags and only corporate officers would have them. I appreciate everyone's response! On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:46 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote: On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 9:03 AM, Jonathan Feldman j...@feldman.org wrote: I'm one of the reporters who covers broadband and cloud computing for InformationWeek magazine (www.informationweek.com), and it's interesting to me that one of the issues with cloud adoption has to do with the limited pipe networks available in this country. For example, it's not feasible to do a massive data load through the networks that are currently available -- you need to FedEx a hard drive to Amazon. Holy cow, it's SneakerNet for the 21st Century! is this a 'this country' bandwidth problem or the problem that moving 10tb of 'corporate data' in a 'secure fashion' from 'office' to 'cloud' really isn't a simple task? and that cutting a DB over at a point in time 'next tuesday!' is far easier done by shipping a point-in-time copy of the DB via sata-drive than 'holy cow copy this over the corp ds3, while we make sure not to kill it for mail/web/etc other corporate normal uses' ? The broadband plan stuff mostly covers consumers, not enterprises, most of the (amazon as the example here) cloud folks offer disk-delivery options for businesses. you seem to be comparing apples to oranges, no? -chris
Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network?
... as Andrew T teaches ... :D On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 5:59 PM, Nick Hilliard n...@foobar.org wrote: On 27/06/2010 14:03, Jonathan Feldman wrote: For example, it's not feasible to do a massive data load through the networks that are currently available -- you need to FedEx a hard drive to Amazon. Holy cow, it's SneakerNet for the 21st Century! Never underestimate the bandwidth of a stationwagon full of $current_high_density_storage_media. Nick
Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network?
The question, in my mind, is whether it's reasonable to ask that regional providers reach the same bar as privately owned campus networks. you are comparing LAN to WAN, never a bright idea randy
Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network?
I've never claimed to be particularly bright, but I do like to challenge assumptions. I meant privately owned campuses spanning many miles. Is that a WAN? LAN? MAN? Seriously, should there really be a difference? If so, why must there be a difference? Let's not forget that ADSL is distance limited. Should it have ever been classified as a WAN technology? Compare that to fiber-connected Ethernet, a so-called LAN technology that goes miles and miles. On Jun 28, 2010, at 6:50 PM, Randy Bush wrote: The question, in my mind, is whether it's reasonable to ask that regional providers reach the same bar as privately owned campus networks. you are comparing LAN to WAN, never a bright idea randy
RE: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network?
-Original Message- From: Jonathan Feldman Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 4:14 PM To: Randy Bush Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network? I've never claimed to be particularly bright, but I do like to challenge assumptions. It isn't only the amount of bandwidth available but also in many cases the protocols used to transmit the data. It takes smarter than the average bear to figure out how to get data across a fat pipe over a long distance at a high rate. TCP protocols are limited by the number of packets allowed to be in flight according to how the stack is configured. One might need to go to unorthodox or rather new methods to use all the available bandwidth. There are many cases of someone being stymied as to why they can't even get anywhere near 10 megabits of throughput on a GigE path from Los Angeles to London using FTP, for example. In many cases the responsibility of getting data from point A to point B is handled by people who don't bring their network operators into the discussion where problems like this can be pointed out to them. Often the first time the enterprise network group hears about it is when someone complains that the fast pipe to $continent is slow and therefore must be broken and that is generally followed by the demand that it be fixed immediately if that demand is not included in the first email. That is when conversations bearing sounds like mpscp and uftp begin and then someone says aw, screw it, just send them a disk. George
RE: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network?
That is when conversations bearing sounds like mpscp and uftp begin and then someone says aw, screw it, just send them a disk. LOL Subject: RE: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network? Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 16:46:37 -0700 From: gbon...@seven.com To: j...@feldman.org; ra...@psg.com CC: nanog@nanog.org -Original Message- From: Jonathan Feldman Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 4:14 PM To: Randy Bush Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network? I've never claimed to be particularly bright, but I do like to challenge assumptions. It isn't only the amount of bandwidth available but also in many cases the protocols used to transmit the data. It takes smarter than the average bear to figure out how to get data across a fat pipe over a long distance at a high rate. TCP protocols are limited by the number of packets allowed to be in flight according to how the stack is configured. One might need to go to unorthodox or rather new methods to use all the available bandwidth. There are many cases of someone being stymied as to why they can't even get anywhere near 10 megabits of throughput on a GigE path from Los Angeles to London using FTP, for example. In many cases the responsibility of getting data from point A to point B is handled by people who don't bring their network operators into the discussion where problems like this can be pointed out to them. Often the first time the enterprise network group hears about it is when someone complains that the fast pipe to $continent is slow and therefore must be broken and that is generally followed by the demand that it be fixed immediately if that demand is not included in the first email. That is when conversations bearing sounds like mpscp and uftp begin and then someone says aw, screw it, just send them a disk. George
Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network?
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 6:26 PM, Jonathan Feldman j...@feldman.org wrote: I don't agree with you, Christopher, that the broadband plan won't affect corporate users. I know that this list _mostly_ consists of operators, but (there are a fair number of consumer network operations folks on nanog as well...) There have been plans to offer 'business' connectivity (replacing T1/T3 last-mile type things) from the likes of Verizon (FiOS) for some time. To date you can't (and they don't seem to have plans really) get a last-mile tail on FiOS with BGP for routing information (like for a redundant connection setup, or for alternate provider paths: FiOS 50mbps link from VZ + 45mbps Ds3 from ATT using BGP to manage your redundancy needs). I don't know that you could not do the same on Comcast or Cox's deployments at this time, maybe someone from these alternatives have already spoken up privately on the matter. I've gotten some offline responses to my initial query that seem to indicate that enterprise users utilize SOHO (consumer grade, but with higher speeds) Sure, lots of folks use 'consumer grade' links for out-sites, that dish on top of the Mobil station being the cannonical example. These out-sites don't generally have the data concentration of the main office, nor the bandwidth needs, nor the redundancy/resiliency needs. Using a SOHO/Consumer link in the right place is a fine solution, using it at your core site, not so fine... for various branch office needs. Also, when a technology gets consumerized it tends to create interesting effects in terms of features and price points. Still waiting for that on the FiOS space or the Comcast space (where's my 100mbps cable/FiOS link with BGP for redundancy?). I CAN get a 50mbps bidirectional FiOS link with static ip addresses (that I have to pay for the 'privilege' of having) but I can NOT use my own ip space, nor can I use a routing protocol to tell VZ or the rest of the world to prefer my alternate link to get to my office. That's suboptimal, and not 'business class' service. Think of it this way: where would corporate mobile phones be without the consumer effect? We'd still be carrying them around in bags and only corporate officers would have them. I'm not sure that the corporate smartphone usage was driven by consumers, it seems (to me) to be the other way around actually... I'm not a mobile-maven so who knows :) -Chris I appreciate everyone's response! On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:46 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote: On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 9:03 AM, Jonathan Feldman j...@feldman.org wrote: I'm one of the reporters who covers broadband and cloud computing for InformationWeek magazine (www.informationweek.com), and it's interesting to me that one of the issues with cloud adoption has to do with the limited pipe networks available in this country. For example, it's not feasible to do a massive data load through the networks that are currently available -- you need to FedEx a hard drive to Amazon. Holy cow, it's SneakerNet for the 21st Century! is this a 'this country' bandwidth problem or the problem that moving 10tb of 'corporate data' in a 'secure fashion' from 'office' to 'cloud' really isn't a simple task? and that cutting a DB over at a point in time 'next tuesday!' is far easier done by shipping a point-in-time copy of the DB via sata-drive than 'holy cow copy this over the corp ds3, while we make sure not to kill it for mail/web/etc other corporate normal uses' ? The broadband plan stuff mostly covers consumers, not enterprises, most of the (amazon as the example here) cloud folks offer disk-delivery options for businesses. you seem to be comparing apples to oranges, no? -chris
Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network?
is geoff's isp business 101 still the canonic reference for what this reporter needs for clue? doing it micro-incrementally on list is a major ton of bleep. randy
Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network?
I wrote a first round BTOP application. No, the program doesn't quite promise to change, by orders of magnitude, the pipe that's available to most folks, and even if it did, that isn't a very strong promise. Most folks live in urban areas, adequately served by physics, if not the private, and the surviving public infrastructure. Most folks who reside in BTOP eligible area codes are not adequately served by physics, and BTOP is, IMHO, limited solutions to the physics problem, with possibly sustainable public incentive funding. The orders of magnitude claim, and the plural in orders is key, is both over blown and misses what is, IMHO, the most interesting aspect of revisiting the physics assumptions about the edge of service. Is unidirectional transport (monitized video streams) the rural service most absent and most valued, or are other characteristics of networks competitive with, or superior to, that service model? The sneaker net meme is worth holding on to, among others. Some of this was grist for the PILC WG. I went with Plan B, but then again, my application got zero funding, and folks that follow this may appreciate the relevance of the mapping portion of the BTOP/BIP package to selection, and the role of state government in selection. I suggest coverage of the lobbying of BTOP/BIP grants is at least as interesting as the problems various applicants attempt to state and provide solutions for. Held until after 5pm PDT, mostly so I could take a walk. Eric
Re: ATT BGP - Advertising my network on accident
So, as periodically happens to me, what started as an idle curiosity turned into an experiment. I took a look at a RIB snapshot from Friday, from one of the RouteViews collectors, to see how common it is that a block gets advertised by two different ASes, as a whole block by one, and as a set of smaller blocks by the other. It turns out there's a non-trivial amount out there -- 490 blocks broken up, adding 1,815 prefixes announced, accounting for 19,623 RIB entries. More details below; let me know if you're interested in even more. Seems kind of interesting, as a form of deaggregation that doesn't show up in things like the CIDR report (since it's not within a single AS). (Standard caveats apply: This is a quick pass, not controlled for things like two ASes belonging to the same entity.) --Richard Total number of deaggregated prefixes: 490 Total additional prefixes advertised: 1815 Total additional RIB entries: 19623 (0.5% out of 3530845 total entries) Total addresses affected: 78863360 (roughly 1,203 /16s) Extremal points: 1. Largest deaggregated block: 17.0.0.0/8, advertised by AS7018 (ATT), deaggregated into two /9s by AS714 (Apple Engineering) 2. Most fractured block: 58.140.0.0/14, advertised by AS3786 (LG DACOM, KR), deaggregated into 69 prefixes (ranging from /17 to /24) by AS10036 (CM Communication, KR). Distribution of the number of additional prefixes: Prefixes Count 2343 3 13 4 80 5 5 6 1 7 4 8 17 9 5 10 1 11 1 14 1 15 1 16 6 17 1 20 2 32 7 34 1 69 1 Distribution of prefix lengths deaggregated: Len Count 8 1 11 1 12 3 13 9 14 17 15 22 16 47 17 25 18 29 19 65 20 52 21 56 22 69 23 92 24 2 Distribution of the number of addresses affected: Addresses Count 512 2 102492 204869 409656 819252 1638465 3276829 6553625 13107247 26214422 52428817 1048576 9 2097152 3 4194304 1 33554432 1
Re: ATT BGP - Advertising my network on accident
you may find http://archive.psg.com/jsac-deag.pdf of interest randy
Country Level BGP Data
Does anyone know of BGP statistical data based on country? If I wanted to know top 5 service providers in country XYZ based on number of BGP peers for example, is there something that can tell me this information? I can manually run a list of AS numbers against tools like Renesys for example but someone has probably already done this? Thanks, Paul
Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network?
On Jun 28, 2010, at 7:42 PM, Eric Brunner-Williams wrote: Is unidirectional transport (monitized video streams) the rural service most absent and most valued, or are other characteristics of networks competitive with, or superior to, that service model? If you drive around rural central and northeastern Texas, every ranch house and bunkhouse has a DirecTV or Dish installation. Surprisingly, many of these same houses also have DSL available from the (heavily subsidized) telephone coops in the area. The speeds aren't screaming, typically being in the 300-700 down/128-384 up ADSL-2+ range. So the demand is there, and so is the service in some areas. --Chris
Re: Country Level BGP Data
On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:58 PM, Paul Stewart wrote: Does anyone know of BGP statistical data based on country? If I wanted to know top 5 service providers in country XYZ based on number of BGP peers for example, is there something that can tell me this information? I can manually run a list of AS numbers against tools like Renesys for example but someone has probably already done this? PCH has this internally, but the AS-to-country mappings are pretty fluid, so we don't hand it out without a lot of caveats... Otherwise policymakers would take it way more seriously than it should be taken, since they love them some rankings. If people generally think we should publish it every day, we'd be willing to, provided we think people are cognizant of the risks of policy folks misusing it. Or marketing folks. Or whatever. Otherwise, email me or Gaurab or Jonny, and we'll set you up with a current listing for whatever countries you're interested in. -Bill
Re: Country Level BGP Data
On 2010.06.28 22:06, Bill Woodcock wrote: On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:58 PM, Paul Stewart wrote: Does anyone know of BGP statistical data based on country? If I wanted to know top 5 service providers in country XYZ based on number of BGP peers for example, is there something that can tell me this information? I can manually run a list of AS numbers against tools like Renesys for example but someone has probably already done this? PCH has this internally, but the AS-to-country mappings are pretty fluid, so we don't hand it out without a lot of caveats... Otherwise policymakers would take it way more seriously than it should be taken, since they love them some rankings. If people generally think we should publish it every day, we'd be willing to, provided we think people are cognizant of the risks of policy folks misusing it. Or marketing folks. Or whatever. Otherwise, email me or Gaurab or Jonny, and we'll set you up with a current listing for whatever countries you're interested in. ...Canada, including v6. Sign me up. Steve
Re: Virbl: The First IPv6 enabled dnsbl?
On Sun, 2010-01-17 at 19:16 +, Andy Davidson wrote: On 16 Jan 2010, at 05:30, Tammy A. Wisdom wrote: Mark Schouten ma...@bit.nl wrote: http://virbl.bit.nl/index.php#ipv6 Comments on the listing method are appreciated. wow bind? thats gonna get slower and slower and slower. I hope you have a TON of ram for that box. for example if we loaded the current contents of the ahbl from rbldnsd to bind it would take up a TON of ram. bind would take forever to load and and would be screaming for its dear life. These problems tend to have a way of solving themselves... This dnsbl is trying to get experience handling v6 data in an anti-spam environment. We do not know how to do that today - and this is a problem which only reduces with experience. The problems of how to scale it, to me seem like a smaller challenge. There are enough clever people who understand how to scale specific dns issues. :-) Good luck to the team at Virbl ! Yes we do. We do it the same way we do it for IPv4... IP radix trees. The main thing required is to modify rbldnsd to make heads or tails of ipv6 dnsbl queries and build it into a prefix for looking up in the radix tree. The actual radix code of rbldnsd is AFAIK based on the BSD-licensed stuff Merit put out in the day. Pretty much everything uses that code... William
Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network?
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 16:46:37 -0700 From: George Bonser gbon...@seven.com -Original Message- From: Jonathan Feldman Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 4:14 PM To: Randy Bush Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network? I've never claimed to be particularly bright, but I do like to challenge assumptions. It isn't only the amount of bandwidth available but also in many cases the protocols used to transmit the data. It takes smarter than the average bear to figure out how to get data across a fat pipe over a long distance at a high rate. TCP protocols are limited by the number of packets allowed to be in flight according to how the stack is configured. One might need to go to unorthodox or rather new methods to use all the available bandwidth. There are many cases of someone being stymied as to why they can't even get anywhere near 10 megabits of throughput on a GigE path from Los Angeles to London using FTP, for example. In many cases the responsibility of getting data from point A to point B is handled by people who don't bring their network operators into the discussion where problems like this can be pointed out to them. Often the first time the enterprise network group hears about it is when someone complains that the fast pipe to $continent is slow and therefore must be broken and that is generally followed by the demand that it be fixed immediately if that demand is not included in the first email. That is when conversations bearing sounds like mpscp and uftp begin and then someone says aw, screw it, just send them a disk. If you really want to improve on the performance of data transfers over long distances (e.g. across an ocean), take a look at http://fasterdata.es.net. The Department of Energy and ESnet provides this information primarily for researchers needing to over large volumes of data over many thousands of kilometers. While some of the information will be beyond the capabilities of the average network user and either end can cause the performance problems, the information can explain a bit about why the problems exists and does provide some simple changes that can greatly enhance transfer speed. -- R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer Energy Sciences Network (ESnet) Ernest O. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) E-mail: ober...@es.net Phone: +1 510 486-8634 Key fingerprint:059B 2DDF 031C 9BA3 14A4 EADA 927D EBB3 987B 3751
Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network?
Jonathan Feldman wrote: I'm one of the reporters who covers broadband and cloud computing for InformationWeek magazine (www.informationweek.com), and it's interesting to me that one of the issues with cloud adoption has to do with the limited pipe networks available in this country. For example, it's not feasible to do a massive data load through the networks that are currently available -- you need to FedEx a hard drive to Amazon. Holy cow, it's SneakerNet for the 21st Century! What's wrong with this? It's not feasible to build a network that spans many ISPs and backbones, capable of doing massive data loads, if the demand for these loads (e.g. upload all our data to a cloud computing system) is infrequent and usually one-time-only - which it seems to be. It's not as if there's a huge performance hit to using FedEx to solve this problem - what is the benefit to the customer in having it all happen within hours instead of 1-2 days? There are other, far more often desired or accessed services (e.g. video on demand, video teleconferencing) that absolutely need high performance big pipe bandwidth, whose needs can not be met with FedEx. Customers who need to access or offer video-on-demand are far more willing to pay, month after month, for access to a high performance backbone. Your average corporate customer isn't going to be willing to pay month-after-month for a super big super fast pipe (faster than they need for their everyday internet access purposes) just so that they can - once - upload their entire corporate database to the cloud faster than they can FedEx disks to their chosen cloud provider. Look at the business case (or lack thereof) for the service before you ask why isn't this available. Unless/until there's a business case for many customers to pay for the service, there's not going to be any purpose in creating the product. jc
Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network?
If the data you need to preload is sufficiently large (e.g. 10s or hundreds of terabytes then yeah it should come as no surprise that it might be more convenient to move by shifting around disks. 100TB of raw disk is around $8000. On 2010-06-28 21:50, JC Dill wrote: Jonathan Feldman wrote: I'm one of the reporters who covers broadband and cloud computing for InformationWeek magazine (www.informationweek.com), and it's interesting to me that one of the issues with cloud adoption has to do with the limited pipe networks available in this country. For example, it's not feasible to do a massive data load through the networks that are currently available -- you need to FedEx a hard drive to Amazon. Holy cow, it's SneakerNet for the 21st Century! What's wrong with this? It's not feasible to build a network that spans many ISPs and backbones, capable of doing massive data loads, if the demand for these loads (e.g. upload all our data to a cloud computing system) is infrequent and usually one-time-only - which it seems to be. It's not as if there's a huge performance hit to using FedEx to solve this problem - what is the benefit to the customer in having it all happen within hours instead of 1-2 days? There are other, far more often desired or accessed services (e.g. video on demand, video teleconferencing) that absolutely need high performance big pipe bandwidth, whose needs can not be met with FedEx. Customers who need to access or offer video-on-demand are far more willing to pay, month after month, for access to a high performance backbone. Your average corporate customer isn't going to be willing to pay month-after-month for a super big super fast pipe (faster than they need for their everyday internet access purposes) just so that they can - once - upload their entire corporate database to the cloud faster than they can FedEx disks to their chosen cloud provider. Look at the business case (or lack thereof) for the service before you ask why isn't this available. Unless/until there's a business case for many customers to pay for the service, there's not going to be any purpose in creating the product. jc
