RE: One of our own in the Guardian.
To be honest, that is the problem with most smaller ISPs, their uplinks are not all 10G... The only way to have users who reliably get high speed tests is to make sure one does not have 1G upstream links but obviously for a smaller provider that would not be an option. I think this is why our retail service routinely is in the top few on the public speed test sites in the US... The (obvious) secret is having more than 1G of headroom on every link to the world and using a lot of 10G internally. From my testing on my home link to our network and a bunch of customer links, public speed tests of above 800 mbit/sec on gigE are pretty achievable assuming the testing server is in the same metro and well provisioned (IE not on a tiny ISP). John -Original Message- From: Jeff Kell [mailto:jeff-k...@utc.edu] Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2013 10:50 PM To: Jima Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: One of our own in the Guardian. On 7/14/2013 9:08 PM, Jima wrote: XMission does offer 1000/1000, as well; I seem to recall the price is something like $300/mo. For us, the problem was more finding remote sites that can push data rates anywhere near one's own limit (as it's enough of a problem at 100mbit), making the price bump not quite worth it. Very true. We have two gigs, but a commercial speedtest comes up seriously short (typically 100+ Mbps) while a locally hosted speedtest will show 800-900+. Not sure how much is their upstream versus simple physics... you'd have to be the only test subject to a gig-connected server to do much better. We have had some contrived examples over I2 that pushed 500Mbps symmetric, but they ran that demo over our I2 pipe because their commodity link couldn't deliver the necessary rate/latency. Jeff
Re: One of our own in the Guardian.
X2 on Joe. ---Nick On 7/14/13 6:52 PM, John van Oppen jvanop...@spectrumnet.us wrote: Yep, that would be us. :) Lots of 100/100 and 1g/1g home Ethernet connections around the Seattle area. :) Joe was a great guy, we miss him still, one of the nicest guys I knew. John van Oppen Spectrum Networks Direct: 206-973-8302 Main: 206-973-8300 From: Joe Hamelin [j...@nethead.com] Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2013 10:46 PM To: Mark Keymer Cc: NANOG list Subject: Re: One of our own in the Guardian. On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 9:46 PM, Mark Keymer m...@viviotech.net wrote: He might have been talking about Condo Internet if he is in the Seattle area. They deliver 1Gig connections to your Condo/Apartment, if your in one of the buildings they service. I know the guy that does Condo. He was a very good friend of a very good friend of NANOG. Joe Wood (RIP) from Google, Flying Croc, and Wolfe. They were just starting a CLEC in the Puget Sound area when Joe died. Damn, I miss that bastard. -- Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474
Ruxcon 2013 Final Call For Papers
Ruxcon 2013 Final Call For Papers Melbourne, Australia, October 26th-27th CQ Function Centre http://www.ruxcon.org.au/call-for-papers/ The Ruxcon team is pleased to announce the final call for papers for Ruxcon. This year the conference will take place over the weekend of the 26th and 27th of October at the CQ Function Centre, Melbourne, Australia. The deadline for submissions is the 31st of August. .[x]. About Ruxcon .[x]. Ruxcon is ia premier technical computer security conference in the Australia. The conference aims to bring together the individual talents of the best and brightest security folk in the region, through live presentations, activities and demonstrations. The conference is held over two days in a relaxed atmosphere, allowing attendees to enjoy themselves whilst networking within the community and expanding their knowledge of security. For more information, please visit the http://www.ruxcon.org.au .[x]. Important Dates .[x]. August 31 - Call For Presentations Close October 26-27 - Ruxcon Conference .[x]. Topic Scope .[x]. o Topics of interest include, but are not limited to: o Mobile Device Security o Virtualization, Hypervisor, and Cloud Security o Malware Analysis o Reverse Engineering o Exploitation Techniques o Rootkit Development o Code Analysis o Forensics and Anti-Forensics o Embedded Device Security o Web Application Security o Network Traffic Analysis o Wireless Network Security o Cryptography and Cryptanalysis o Social Engineering o Law Enforcement Activities o Telecommunications Security (SS7, 3G/4G, GSM, VOIP, etc) .[x]. Submission Guidelines .[x]. In order for us to process your submission we require the following information: 1. Presentation title 2. Detailed summary of your presentation material 3. Name/Nickname 4. Mobile phone number 5. Brief personal biography 6. Description of any demonstrations involved in the presentation 7. Information on where the presentation material has or will be presented before Ruxcon * As a general guideline, Ruxcon presentations are between 45 and 60 minutes, including question time. If you have any enquiries about submissions, or would like to make a submission, please send an email to presentati...@ruxcon.org.au The deadline for submissions is the 31st of August. .[x]. Contact .[x]. o Email: presentati...@ruxcon.org.au o Twitter: @ruxcon
[NANOG-announce] Announcing the October 2013 NANOG Elections
Hello NANOGers! This message is to encourage you, as a participant of this community, to become NANOG members and to consider standing for a leadership position at our upcoming October elections. The call for Board members nominations will be from August 9 to September 20 and for committee members from September 12 to October 8. We wanted to provide you now with the election process preview. It’s posted at http://www.nanog.org/governance/elections/2013 and we’ll make announcements at every step. Why should you become a NANOG member? One Member = One Voter = One Eligible Candidate Candidate and Voter eligibility are opened to every ‘member in good standing’. You may never have attended a conference but as an active reader and poster on our mailing lists, you contribute to the knowledge of this community. Becoming a NANOG member gives you the right to stand for a position and to vote in October. You can join at http://www.nanog.org/membership/join. What is expected of Committee Candidates? How many vacant positions? In New Orleans, we reminded the community of the documented set of roles, responsibilities and expectations placed on each position. We trust you will find the following useful. Candidates will be appointed Committee members by the newly elected Board next October. * 3 vacancies: Communications Committee Member - Refer to CC Responsibilities http://nanog.org/governance/cc/member_responsibility * 3 vacancies: Development Committee Member - Refer to DC Responsibilitieshttp://nanog.org/governance/dev/member_responsibility * 8 vacancies: Program Committee Member - Refer to PC Responsibilitieshttp://nanog.org/governance/pgm/member_responsibilities What is expected of a Board Candidate? How many vacant positions? Read the Board Member Responsibilities and NANOG by-laws for a complete understanding of the expectations placed on Board Members. Board Member Responsibilitieshttp://nanog.org/governance/bod/member_responsibility NANOG By-lawshttps://www.nanog.org/governance/documents/NANOG-Bylaws-October2011.pdf To ensure continuity on the Board, three seats out of six become open each year due to the expiration of 2-year terms. The Board members whose terms are expiring in October are: * Steve Gibbard * Sylvie LaPerriere * Duane Wessels Sylvie and Duane have served two 2-year terms and cannot be considered for re-election until October 2014 (one year leave). Steve is completing his first two year term and he can stand for re-election. How do you Nominate? You can self-nominate. You care about NANOG’s governance and want to take a turn at volunteering your time and expertise to help make it better. 1. Make sure you are a NANOG member in good standing 2. Submit your Declaration of Candidacy to electi...@nanog.org. You can nominate others. 1. Send their contact information to electi...@nanog.org 2. If they accept the nomination, they will be asked to become a NANOG member in good standing 3. They will have to submit their Declaration of Candidacy to electi...@nanog.org. As NANOG continues to evolve, our Board and our Committees will continue to play an increasingly important role in our success. We thank you in advance for becoming NANOG members and taking an active part in our governance. Best regards, Sylvie, on behalf of the NANOG Board of Directors ___ NANOG-announce mailing list nanog-annou...@mailman.nanog.org http://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog-announce
Re: Office 365..? how Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages
On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 15:45:26 -0500, Aaron Wendel said: We (ISPs) are all compelled to provide information from time to time under a court order. The PRISM program is voluntary. Ask the ex-CEO of Qwest how voluntary that sort of stuff is. pgpyp3UhrUiFO.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Office 365..? how Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:11 AM, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 15:45:26 -0500, Aaron Wendel said: We (ISPs) are all compelled to provide information from time to time under a court order. The PRISM program is voluntary. Ask the ex-CEO of Qwest how voluntary that sort of stuff is. it REALLY depends on what 'prisim' is... seen in one light, the program is 'just' isp/asp people who agree to permit FISA requests to be satisfied via: scp files from fisa.isp.net with key fingerprint 0xasdasdasd of course, the other way to read it (as the news would like us to believe) is as: plug nsa ethernet into eth1 of all servers and routers, kthxbi! more details would certainly make this whole conversation less alamist and more rational. -chris
RE: One of our own in the Guardian.
Nice to see our network talked about on here :0) -Original Message- From: Grant Ridder [mailto:shortdudey...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2013 9:33 PM To: Joe Hamelin Cc: NANOG list Subject: Re: One of our own in the Guardian. Someone I know in Washington state has 100/100 at home and made the comment to me a year ago that it was one of the slower speeds offered. I am not sure who his ISP is however. -Grant On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 9:20 PM, Joe Hamelin j...@nethead.com wrote: Jima said: Really, who has 100/100 at home? Oddly, those living in Grand Coulee, WA. I went there once to setup corporate connectivity for a regional tire store. They ordered the minimal drop, 50/50Mbs. One of the tire changers there told me that he had 100/100 at home for $50/month. This was a town without T-Mobile service. I had to haul out the butt set and clip on to the business POTS lines to turn up the VPN. Most of rural Central Washington has very good fiber connectivity. Forward looking Public Utility Districts FTW! -- Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474
RE: One of our own in the Guardian.
I'm happy to say we did not use federal or state money to build the fiber or the network in Grant County. There is some of that floating around us though. -Original Message- From: Warren Bailey [mailto:wbai...@satelliteintelligencegroup.com] Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2013 12:37 PM To: Constantine A. Murenin; Jeff Kell Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: One of our own in the Guardian. I would imagine this cheap rural fiber showed up after the RUS stimulus? A former employer (GCI, in Anchorage Alaska) received quite a bit of money in the form of a grant/loan for a rural fiber network (I think they may have received the largest of all grants). Would be interesting to know how much of this was as a result of dot gov funding. Sent from my Mobile Device. Original message From: Constantine A. Murenin muren...@gmail.com Date: 07/14/2013 10:59 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Jeff Kell jeff-k...@utc.edu Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: One of our own in the Guardian. On 14 July 2013 10:11, Jeff Kell jeff-k...@utc.edu wrote: On 7/13/2013 10:15 PM, Jima wrote: On 2013-07-13 14:44, Bill Woodcock wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/09/xmission-isp-customers-p rivacy-nsa I can happily state that XMission is my home ISP, with UTOPIA (city-involved fiber optic provider) as the local loop. (Really, who has 100/100 at home?) A whole lot of folks in Chattanooga... https://epbfi.com/enroll/packages/#/fi-speed-internet-100 100Mb symmetric is $69/mo, 250Mb is $139, 1Gbit is $299 Largely Alcatel/Lucent GPON. Business rates considerably higher :) They are one of our providers and we aren't metered. I don't know how they're handling domestic rates / quotas. There are a number of 100/100 under $100/mo providers in the US, but most of them are concentrated in various rural areas. I've tried maintaining an up-to-date list of providers with reasonable offers at http://bmap.su/, but lately haven't had the time to keep on updating it. C.
RE: One of our own in the Guardian.
Many of the Washington state PUDs very early in the day took on the charge of delivering broadband to places that the telco's did not see ROI for. It did and still does make sense to deliver fiber along with power to the home but that is the kind of long term thinking that can be costly up front for future improved quality of life. Nice to see some acknowledgement on the list of that vision. +-+ Nick Guy | Network Architecture | NoaNet | nick...@noanet.net| +-+ -Original Message- From: Robert Bergman [mailto:rber...@gcpud.org] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 8:34 AM To: Warren Bailey; Constantine A. Murenin; Jeff Kell Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: One of our own in the Guardian. I'm happy to say we did not use federal or state money to build the fiber or the network in Grant County. There is some of that floating around us though. -Original Message- From: Warren Bailey [mailto:wbai...@satelliteintelligencegroup.com] Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2013 12:37 PM To: Constantine A. Murenin; Jeff Kell Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: One of our own in the Guardian. I would imagine this cheap rural fiber showed up after the RUS stimulus? A former employer (GCI, in Anchorage Alaska) received quite a bit of money in the form of a grant/loan for a rural fiber network (I think they may have received the largest of all grants). Would be interesting to know how much of this was as a result of dot gov funding. Sent from my Mobile Device. Original message From: Constantine A. Murenin muren...@gmail.com Date: 07/14/2013 10:59 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Jeff Kell jeff-k...@utc.edu Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: One of our own in the Guardian. On 14 July 2013 10:11, Jeff Kell jeff-k...@utc.edu wrote: On 7/13/2013 10:15 PM, Jima wrote: On 2013-07-13 14:44, Bill Woodcock wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/09/xmission-isp-customers-p rivacy-nsa I can happily state that XMission is my home ISP, with UTOPIA (city-involved fiber optic provider) as the local loop. (Really, who has 100/100 at home?) A whole lot of folks in Chattanooga... https://epbfi.com/enroll/packages/#/fi-speed-internet-100 100Mb symmetric is $69/mo, 250Mb is $139, 1Gbit is $299 Largely Alcatel/Lucent GPON. Business rates considerably higher :) They are one of our providers and we aren't metered. I don't know how they're handling domestic rates / quotas. There are a number of 100/100 under $100/mo providers in the US, but most of them are concentrated in various rural areas. I've tried maintaining an up-to-date list of providers with reasonable offers at http://bmap.su/, but lately haven't had the time to keep on updating it. C.
Re: Office 365..? how Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages
I don't think the conversation is based around the method by which information is intercepted. I hope the conversation is aligned with its reasoning for disclosure - the American people stopping a government who is known for abusing it's power. Obviously this does not mean physically stopping them, but I imagine most people know what motivates their state and national political officials. I still wonder why Mr. Snowden hasn't dropped more damaging information, it would seem his sworn enemy has made their feelings somewhat clear. Sent from my Mobile Device. Original message From: Christopher Morrow morrowc.li...@gmail.com Date: 07/15/2013 7:34 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Valdis Kletnieks valdis.kletni...@vt.edu Cc: nanog list nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Office 365..? how Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:11 AM, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 15:45:26 -0500, Aaron Wendel said: We (ISPs) are all compelled to provide information from time to time under a court order. The PRISM program is voluntary. Ask the ex-CEO of Qwest how voluntary that sort of stuff is. it REALLY depends on what 'prisim' is... seen in one light, the program is 'just' isp/asp people who agree to permit FISA requests to be satisfied via: scp files from fisa.isp.net with key fingerprint 0xasdasdasd of course, the other way to read it (as the news would like us to believe) is as: plug nsa ethernet into eth1 of all servers and routers, kthxbi! more details would certainly make this whole conversation less alamist and more rational. -chris
tools and techniques to pinpoint and respond to loss on a path
Hi, Does anyone have any recommendations on how to pinpoint and react to packet loss across the internet? preferably in an automated fashion. For detection I'm currently looking at trying smoketrace to run from inside my network, but I'd love to be able to run traceroutes from my edge routers triggered during periods of loss. I have Juniper MX80s on one end- which I'm hopeful I'll be able to cobble together some combo of RPM and event scripting to kick off a traceroute. We have Cisco4900Ms on the other end and maybe the same thing is possible but I'm not so sure. I'd love to hear other suggestions and experience for detection and also for options on what I might be able to do when loss is detected on a path. In my specific situation I control equipment on both ends of the path that I care about with details below. we are a hosted service company and we currently have two data centers, DC A and DC B. DC A uses juniper MX routers, advertises our own IP space and takes full BGP feeds from two providers, ISPs A1 and A2. At DC B we have a smaller installation and instead take redundant drops (and IP space) from a single provider, ISP B1, who then peers upstream with two providers, B2 and B3 We have a fairly consistent bi-directional stream of traffic between DC A and DC B. Both of ISP A1 and A2 have good peering with ISP B2 so under normal network conditions traffic flows across ISP B1 to B2 and then to either ISP A1 or A2 oversimplified ascii pic showing only the normal best paths: -- ISP A1--ISP B2-- DC A--| |--- ISP B1 - DC B -- ISP A2--ISP B2-- with increasing frequency we've been experiencing packet loss along the path from DC A to DC B. Usually the periods of loss are brief, 30 seconds to a minute, but they are total blackouts. I'd like to be able to collect enough relevant data to pinpoint the trouble spot as much as possible so I can take it to the ISPs and request a solution. The blackouts are so quick that it's impossible to log in and get a trace- hence the desire to automate it. I can provide more details off list if helpful- I'm trying not to vilify anyone- especially without copious amounts of data points. As a side question, what should my expectation be regarding packet loss when sending packets from point A to point B across multiple providers across the internet? Is 30 seconds to a minute of blackout between two destinations every couple of weeks par for the course? My directly connected ISPs offer me an SLA, but what should I reasonably expect from them when one of their upstream peers (or a peer of their peers) has issues? If this turns out to be BGP reconvergence or similar do I have any options? many thanks, -andy
Re: tools and techniques to pinpoint and respond to loss on a path
On Jul 15, 2013, at 5:18 PM, Andy Litzinger andy.litzin...@theplatform.com wrote: I'd like to be able to collect enough relevant data to pinpoint the trouble spot as much as possible so I can take it to the ISPs and request a solution. The blackouts are so quick that it's impossible to log in and get a trace- hence the desire to automate it. I can provide more details off list if helpful- I'm trying not to vilify anyone- especially without copious amounts of data points. As a side question, what should my expectation be regarding packet loss when sending packets from point A to point B across multiple providers across the internet? Is 30 seconds to a minute of blackout between two destinations every couple of weeks par for the course? My directly connected ISPs offer me an SLA, but what should I reasonably expect from them when one of their upstream peers (or a peer of their peers) has issues? If this turns out to be BGP reconvergence or similar do I have any options? I think there are a number of tools available to detect if something is happening: 1) iperf (test network/bw usage) 2) owamp (one way ping) - you can use this to detect when reordering or other events happen.. this will collect nearly continuious data. requires good ntp references, or accepting you may see skewed data. 3) some other udp/low latency responder. i've built something of my own that does this, i can provide a pointer if you are interested. i have graphs of my connection at home to someplace remote that crosses 3 carriers. you can see the queuing delay increment throughout the day until peak times and taper off at night. no loss, but the increase is quite visible. 4) some vendor SLA/SAA product. Cisco and others have SAA responders that work on their devices you can configure to collect data. That being said, losing network for 30 seconds once every 2 weeks I would expect is fairly common. Someone will be doing network upgrades/work or there will be hardware/transmission error, etc. 30 seconds sounds a lot like bgp convergence, and in older platforms, eg: 6500/sup720 expect about 8k prefixes/second max to be downloaded into the tcam/fib. with 400k+ prefixes, it takes awhile to pump the tables into the forwarding side. - Jared
Re: tools and techniques to pinpoint and respond to loss on a path
Personally I would never expect simple routed connectivity across the public internet to be such a high level of reliability, without at least diverse path tunnels running route protocols internally. While any provider will attempt to fix peer / upstream issues as they can, any SLA you would have is between two points on their private network, not from point A to point Z that they have no control over across multiple peers and the public internet itself. The much more common design is using a single provider for each thread between sites. Then at least you have an end-to-end SLA in effect, as well as a single entity that is responsible for the entire link in question. This sounds like you're trying to achieve private link IGP / FRR level site to site failover/convergence across the public internet. Perhaps you should rethink your goals here or your design? -Blake On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 4:18 PM, Andy Litzinger andy.litzin...@theplatform.com wrote: Hi, Does anyone have any recommendations on how to pinpoint and react to packet loss across the internet? preferably in an automated fashion. For detection I'm currently looking at trying smoketrace to run from inside my network, but I'd love to be able to run traceroutes from my edge routers triggered during periods of loss. I have Juniper MX80s on one end- which I'm hopeful I'll be able to cobble together some combo of RPM and event scripting to kick off a traceroute. We have Cisco4900Ms on the other end and maybe the same thing is possible but I'm not so sure. I'd love to hear other suggestions and experience for detection and also for options on what I might be able to do when loss is detected on a path. In my specific situation I control equipment on both ends of the path that I care about with details below. we are a hosted service company and we currently have two data centers, DC A and DC B. DC A uses juniper MX routers, advertises our own IP space and takes full BGP feeds from two providers, ISPs A1 and A2. At DC B we have a smaller installation and instead take redundant drops (and IP space) from a single provider, ISP B1, who then peers upstream with two providers, B2 and B3 We have a fairly consistent bi-directional stream of traffic between DC A and DC B. Both of ISP A1 and A2 have good peering with ISP B2 so under normal network conditions traffic flows across ISP B1 to B2 and then to either ISP A1 or A2 oversimplified ascii pic showing only the normal best paths: -- ISP A1--ISP B2-- DC A--| |--- ISP B1 - DC B -- ISP A2--ISP B2-- with increasing frequency we've been experiencing packet loss along the path from DC A to DC B. Usually the periods of loss are brief, 30 seconds to a minute, but they are total blackouts. I'd like to be able to collect enough relevant data to pinpoint the trouble spot as much as possible so I can take it to the ISPs and request a solution. The blackouts are so quick that it's impossible to log in and get a trace- hence the desire to automate it. I can provide more details off list if helpful- I'm trying not to vilify anyone- especially without copious amounts of data points. As a side question, what should my expectation be regarding packet loss when sending packets from point A to point B across multiple providers across the internet? Is 30 seconds to a minute of blackout between two destinations every couple of weeks par for the course? My directly connected ISPs offer me an SLA, but what should I reasonably expect from them when one of their upstream peers (or a peer of their peers) has issues? If this turns out to be BGP reconvergence or similar do I have any options? many thanks, -andy
Re: Office 365..? how Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages
Dropping everything at once may dilute the debate as I am sure your government and every other government that may be proved to be involved will try to focus the discussion on small and less damaging issues until the bigger ones are forgotten. Reveal something, wait a few weeks/months, reveal something else may keep the debate open for longer time and at some point maybe enough critical mass is attained where something can be achieved. On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 7:17 PM, Warren Bailey wbai...@satelliteintelligencegroup.com wrote: I don't think the conversation is based around the method by which information is intercepted. I hope the conversation is aligned with its reasoning for disclosure - the American people stopping a government who is known for abusing it's power. Obviously this does not mean physically stopping them, but I imagine most people know what motivates their state and national political officials. I still wonder why Mr. Snowden hasn't dropped more damaging information, it would seem his sworn enemy has made their feelings somewhat clear. Sent from my Mobile Device. Original message From: Christopher Morrow morrowc.li...@gmail.com Date: 07/15/2013 7:34 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Valdis Kletnieks valdis.kletni...@vt.edu Cc: nanog list nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Office 365..? how Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:11 AM, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 15:45:26 -0500, Aaron Wendel said: We (ISPs) are all compelled to provide information from time to time under a court order. The PRISM program is voluntary. Ask the ex-CEO of Qwest how voluntary that sort of stuff is. it REALLY depends on what 'prisim' is... seen in one light, the program is 'just' isp/asp people who agree to permit FISA requests to be satisfied via: scp files from fisa.isp.net with key fingerprint 0xasdasdasd of course, the other way to read it (as the news would like us to believe) is as: plug nsa ethernet into eth1 of all servers and routers, kthxbi! more details would certainly make this whole conversation less alamist and more rational. -chris
