Re: Strange connectivity issue Frontier EVPL

[Adam Korab]

As it happens, I've just recently turned up a peering circuit with PSL in 
Houston, and their senior engineer is clue++

Naturally, he's on vacation this week, but [Aaron] ping me unicast if I might 
be able to assist/lend eyeballs/make an introduction of you guys next week.

--Adam

On 11/9/20, 8:05 AM, "NANOG on behalf of Tim Burke" 
 wrote:

I'm amazed you can get *anything* to work with Logix involved. Haven't 
heard of many issues with PSLightwave in Houston, however... they seem 
to be one of the only halfway decent options here.

On 11/6/20 2:57 PM, aar...@gvtc.com wrote:
> My coworker is having similar issues with PS Lightwave and Alpheus/Logix
> from San Antonio to Houston whereas some things work and somethings don't
>
> -Aaron
>
>

Technology risk without safeguards

[Suresh Kalkunte]

Since I value the health and well being of my fellow netwotking
professionals who exercise good judgment, I express the following.

If not anything else, if you have got the feedback from a leading law
enforcement/military practioner (I scarcely believe the Judiciary would
even condider my suggestion if this concern for status quo of lawlessness
was based on flimsy ground as you make it out to be -
https://www.uscourts.gov/rules-policies/archives/suggestions/suresh-kalkunte-16-cv-g)
like I have and they say this path of enquiry is based on falsehood, go
ahead, call it a conspiracy.

When you agreed in an earlier post that research was required, it conveyed
rational reasoning, but not this.

I am no George Washington (because I have not experienced the hardship he
endured/saw or enjoyed the loyalty of Brave souls who breathed liberty),
but, this line of maligning reminds me of the false allegation made against
His Excellency Washington that he was in league with the adversary in an
effort to sow distrust just before the end of the first American Revolution.



On Wednesday, November 11, 2020, Sabri Berisha 
wrote:

> - On Nov 10, 2020, at 12:56 AM, Jon Sands fohdee...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 8:00 PM Suresh Kalkunte < [ mailto:
> sskalku...@gmail.com |
> > sskalku...@gmail.com ] > wrote:
>
> >> raw garlic assimilation
>
> > This thread is definitely going to be used in a future court case
>
> Nah, by that time this thread will be classified as an internet conspiracy
> :)
>
> If anyone should look at this thread for the purposes of bringing it in as
> evidence in any type of legal action: keep in mind that few (if any) of the
> contributors are medical or legal professionals, and some may be simple
> trolls.
>
> Nothing in this thread has any evidentiary contribution and represents the
> personal opinion of the writers. Scientific studies should be preferred
> over
> this type of 'internet folklore'. We're network plumbers.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sabri, certified plumber.
>

Re: Technology risk without safeguards

[Sabri Berisha]

- On Nov 10, 2020, at 12:56 AM, Jon Sands fohdee...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 8:00 PM Suresh Kalkunte < [ mailto:sskalku...@gmail.com |
> sskalku...@gmail.com ] > wrote:

>> raw garlic assimilation

> This thread is definitely going to be used in a future court case

Nah, by that time this thread will be classified as an internet conspiracy :)

If anyone should look at this thread for the purposes of bringing it in as 
evidence in any type of legal action: keep in mind that few (if any) of the
contributors are medical or legal professionals, and some may be simple trolls.

Nothing in this thread has any evidentiary contribution and represents the
personal opinion of the writers. Scientific studies should be preferred over
this type of 'internet folklore'. We're network plumbers.

Thanks,

Sabri, certified plumber.

Re: Phoenix-IX Contact

[Mehmet Akcin]

Community IX is doing really good job with Running FL-IX. Phoenix would be
interesting indeed. I would love them to consider expanding

On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 10:04 Jay Hennigan  wrote:

> On 11/10/20 05:27, Walt wrote:
> > Is it time for a new IX in Phoenix?
>
> We're at Iron Mountain there and would welcome one. There was AZ-IX a
> while back but it's been essentially defunct for some time.
>
> --
> Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
> Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
> 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
>
-- 
Mehmet
+1-424-298-1903

Re: Phoenix-IX Contact

[Jay Hennigan]

On 11/10/20 05:27, Walt wrote:

Is it time for a new IX in Phoenix?


We're at Iron Mountain there and would welcome one. There was AZ-IX a 
while back but it's been essentially defunct for some time.


--
Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
503 897-8550 - WB6RDV

Re: Phoenix-IX Contact

[Bill Woodcock]

> On Nov 10, 2020, at 5:05 PM, Kate Gerry  wrote:
> I am running on a huge assumption here, but I think Phoenix-IX runs on 
> donated infrastructure.

I believe that’s the case.

> I also wonder how the other Ninja-IX exchanges are running, I haven't heard 
> anything about them, is there the same lack of communication? Or do those 
> have a local staff?

I just asked the other PCH staff, and the last direct contact we had with Paul 
was in August of 2019.  The last indirect contact was being cc’d on a work 
ticket that he originated in March of this year.

-Bill



signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP

Re: Phoenix-IX Contact

[Kate Gerry]

Matt,

I am running on a huge assumption here, but I think Phoenix-IX runs on donated 
infrastructure. From what I recall, there was only an NRC to join Phoenix-IX.

And in regards to Walt's suggestion, it looks like HE already started one with 
Stellar Technologies. https://48ix.net  but it is only in a 
single facility. So until that IX grows, both in peers and footprint, I'm stuck 
on Phoenix-IX.

I have wondered what happens if a participant storms the IX. Will somebody 
appear? Because attempts to reach their NOC/peering handles has resulted in a 
lack of response.

I also wonder how the other Ninja-IX exchanges are running, I haven't heard 
anything about them, is there the same lack of communication? Or do those have 
a local staff?

—
Kate

> On Nov 10, 2020, at 06:15, Matt Hoppes  
> wrote:
> 
> How is the IX still running?  Surely someone must be paying colo rent?
> 
> On 11/10/20 9:03 AM, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
>> Always a good time for network operators to consider the risks of having any 
>> one person as a single point of failure for something kind of important:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor
>> Disaster recovery and continuity of business plans should always include the 
>> concept of what if some percentage of the key team members were to be 
>> suddenly unavailable permanently (the Malaysian airline incident, for 
>> example).
>> On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:08 PM Kate Gerry > > wrote:
>>Is there anybody else even there? I thought that it was all Paul's show!
>>If I was able to (as in, had access to), I would offer to help/run
>>with the IX. I may live in California, but it's a realistic car trip
>>back and forth to Phoenix.
>>--
>>Kate
>>>On Nov 9, 2020, at 17:58, Mike Hammett >>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>Paul's LinkedIn seems to show that he checked out in April. Let me
>>>know if you have any success reaching anyone there.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>-
>>>Mike Hammett
>>>Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>>>
>>> 
>>>Midwest Internet Exchange 
>>>
>>> 
>>>The Brothers WISP 
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>*From:*"Kate Gerry" mailto:kge...@outlook.com>>
>>>*To:*"Bill Woodcock" mailto:wo...@pch.net>>
>>>*Cc:*nanog@nanog.org 
>>>*Sent:*Monday, November 9, 2020 5:44:42 PM
>>>*Subject:*Re: Phoenix-IX Contact
>>> 
>>>Just a heads-up, I never heard a word from anybody at Phoenix-IX.
>>> 
>>>Is there anybody still running the IX? Or is it just on autopilot?
>>>It'd be nice if anybody had some information on whatever happened
>>>to Paul. Hopefully he is okay!
>>> 
>>>--
>>>Kate
>>> 
>>>On Sep 14, 2020, at 13:33, Kate Gerry >>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>Thank Bill! I've been trying to reach Paul for ages now,
>>>hopefully he pops back up again. We want to upgrade.
>>> 
>>>On an unrelated note, it looks like somebody has their ticket
>>>system subscribed to the list... Awesome.
>>> 
>>>*From: *Dating Support >>>
>>>*Subject: **[#WQV-291-95071]: Phoenix-IX Contact*
>>>*Date: *September 14, 2020 at 12:43:20 PDT
>>>*To: *kge...@outlook.com 
>>>*Reply-To: *dating.supp...@csvwebsupport.com
>>>
>>> 
>>>Kate Gerry,
>>> 
>>>Thank you for contacting us. This is an automated response
>>>confirming the receipt of your ticket. Our team will get
>>>back to you within 24 hours.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>--
>>>Kate
>>> 
>>> 
>>>On Sep 14, 2020, at 12:48, Bill Woodcock >>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:31 PM, Kate Gerry
>>>mailto:kge...@outlook.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>Does anybody have a contact who works at Phoenix-IX? I
>>>have been attempting to reach somebody there for a
>>>while now without any luck.
>>> 
>>>Attempts to each out topeer...@phoenix-ix.net
>>>as well as Ninja-IX
>>>have been without any luck. We also tried reaching out
>>>   

Re: Apple Catalina Appears to Introduce Massive Jitter - SOLVED!

[J. Hellenthal via NANOG]

Hey Mark,

Went through a bunch of tests here. Seems I’ve cleared up the matter on this 
macOS[1] Big Sur at least by disabling Wi-Fi Networking under “Location 
Services -> System Services -> Wi-Fi Networking [2]”. It seems at least from 
perspective that something changed there and causes the Mac to scan more 
aggressively when more than one access point (generally speaking your SSID & 
SSID + 5G) has been logged at a location as accessible. This same thing could 
be observed at least on my system while having those settings turned off, 
bluetooth on and location services enabled and opening (Wi-Fi Explorer[3]) 
which puts the interface into “monitor mode” which seems to be causing the 
contention somewhere. After those changes keep in mind I had to restart from a 
full shutdown to get to some real clean ms traffic to the router and I prefer 
to be connected to 5Ghz before 2.4Ghz.


1. Darwin Kernel Version 20.1.0: Thu Oct 29 05:35:40 PDT 2020; 
root:xnu-7195.50.5~4/RELEASE_X86_64
2. 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/m3xm3fpoziwe01d/Screen%20Shot%202020-11-10%20at%2008.20.08.png?dl=0
3. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/wifi-explorer/id494803304?mt=12


> On Nov 5, 2020, at 00:43, Mark Tinka  wrote:
> 
> Just an update on this re: the Bluetooth.
> 
> I had my AirPods paired previously for single use. I don't use them on the 
> laptop (there is some latency), so I prefer the wired earphones. But it seems 
> like Bluetooth was aggressively scanning for them. After removing them from 
> the system, the scanning remained, but reduced significantly.
> 
> So looking at Console again, every so often, Bluetooth is scanning the 
> network on behalf of the "sharingd" process.
> 
> sharingd is a sharing daemon that supports features such as AirDrop, Handoff, 
> Instant Hotspot, Shared Computers and Remote Disc in Finder.
> 
> Still keeping Bluetooth off, however.
> 
> Mark.


-- 

J. Hellenthal

The fact that there's a highway to Hell but only a stairway to Heaven says a 
lot about anticipated traffic volume.

Re: Phoenix-IX Contact

[Matt Hoppes]

How is the IX still running?  Surely someone must be paying colo rent?

On 11/10/20 9:03 AM, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
Always a good time for network operators to consider the risks of having 
any one person as a single point of failure for something kind of important:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor

Disaster recovery and continuity of business plans should always include 
the concept of what if some percentage of the key team members were to 
be suddenly unavailable permanently (the Malaysian airline incident, for 
example).




On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:08 PM Kate Gerry > wrote:


Is there anybody else even there? I thought that it was all Paul's show!

If I was able to (as in, had access to), I would offer to help/run
with the IX. I may live in California, but it's a realistic car trip
back and forth to Phoenix.

--
Kate


On Nov 9, 2020, at 17:58, Mike Hammett mailto:na...@ics-il.net>> wrote:

Paul's LinkedIn seems to show that he checked out in April. Let me
know if you have any success reaching anyone there.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 


Midwest Internet Exchange 


The Brothers WISP 



*From:*"Kate Gerry" mailto:kge...@outlook.com>>
*To:*"Bill Woodcock" mailto:wo...@pch.net>>
*Cc:*nanog@nanog.org 
*Sent:*Monday, November 9, 2020 5:44:42 PM
*Subject:*Re: Phoenix-IX Contact

Just a heads-up, I never heard a word from anybody at Phoenix-IX.

Is there anybody still running the IX? Or is it just on autopilot?
It'd be nice if anybody had some information on whatever happened
to Paul. Hopefully he is okay!

--
Kate

On Sep 14, 2020, at 13:33, Kate Gerry mailto:kge...@outlook.com>> wrote:

Thank Bill! I've been trying to reach Paul for ages now,
hopefully he pops back up again. We want to upgrade.

On an unrelated note, it looks like somebody has their ticket
system subscribed to the list... Awesome.

*From: *Dating Support mailto:dating.supp...@csvwebsupport.com>>
*Subject: **[#WQV-291-95071]: Phoenix-IX Contact*
*Date: *September 14, 2020 at 12:43:20 PDT
*To: *kge...@outlook.com 
*Reply-To: *dating.supp...@csvwebsupport.com


Kate Gerry,

Thank you for contacting us. This is an automated response
confirming the receipt of your ticket. Our team will get
back to you within 24 hours.


--
Kate


On Sep 14, 2020, at 12:48, Bill Woodcock mailto:wo...@pch.net>> wrote:



On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:31 PM, Kate Gerry
mailto:kge...@outlook.com>> wrote:

Does anybody have a contact who works at Phoenix-IX? I
have been attempting to reach somebody there for a
while now without any luck.

Attempts to each out topeer...@phoenix-ix.net
as well as Ninja-IX
have been without any luck. We also tried reaching out
to Paul Emmons via LinkedIn mail and never received a
response.


Paul is the correct person.

   -Bill

Re: Phoenix-IX Contact

[Eric Kuhnke]

I presume that the biggest telcos, cable MSOs and such in the Phoenix
region already operate PNIs with each other, so the real question would be
what population of ISPs and how much traffic would go across an IX if you
subtract the top-six largest last mile service providers.



On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 5:28 AM Walt  wrote:

> Is it time for a new IX in Phoenix?
>
>
>
> *From: *NANOG  on behalf of Kate
> Gerry 
> *Date: *Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:07 PM
> *To: *Mike Hammett 
> *Cc: *"nanog@nanog.org" 
> *Subject: *Re: Phoenix-IX Contact
>
>
>
> Is there anybody else even there? I thought that it was all Paul's show!
>
>
>
> If I was able to (as in, had access to), I would offer to help/run with
> the IX. I may live in California, but it's a realistic car trip back and
> forth to Phoenix.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Kate
>
>
>
> On Nov 9, 2020, at 17:58, Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
>
>
> Paul's LinkedIn seems to show that he checked out in April. Let me know if
> you have any success reaching anyone there.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> [image: Image removed by sender.] [image:
> Image removed by sender.]
> [image:
> Image removed by sender.]
> [image:
> Image removed by sender.] 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> [image: Image removed by sender.] [image:
> Image removed by sender.]
> [image: Image
> removed by sender.] 
> The Brothers WISP 
> [image: Image removed by sender.]
> [image: Image removed by
> sender.] 
> --
>
> *From: *"Kate Gerry" 
> *To: *"Bill Woodcock" 
> *Cc: *nanog@nanog.org
> *Sent: *Monday, November 9, 2020 5:44:42 PM
> *Subject: *Re: Phoenix-IX Contact
>
> Just a heads-up, I never heard a word from anybody at Phoenix-IX.
>
>
>
> Is there anybody still running the IX? Or is it just on autopilot? It'd be
> nice if anybody had some information on whatever happened to Paul.
> Hopefully he is okay!
>
>
>
> --
>
> Kate
>
>
>
> On Sep 14, 2020, at 13:33, Kate Gerry  wrote:
>
>
>
> Thank Bill! I've been trying to reach Paul for ages now, hopefully he pops
> back up again. We want to upgrade.
>
>
>
> On an unrelated note, it looks like somebody has their ticket system
> subscribed to the list... Awesome.
>
>
>
> *From: *Dating Support 
>
> *Subject: [#WQV-291-95071]: Phoenix-IX Contact*
>
> *Date: *September 14, 2020 at 12:43:20 PDT
>
> *To: *kge...@outlook.com
>
> *Reply-To: *dating.supp...@csvwebsupport.com
>
>
>
> Kate Gerry,
>
> Thank you for contacting us. This is an automated response confirming the
> receipt of your ticket. Our team will get back to you within 24 hours.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Kate
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 14, 2020, at 12:48, Bill Woodcock  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:31 PM, Kate Gerry  wrote:
>
> Does anybody have a contact who works at Phoenix-IX? I have been
> attempting to reach somebody there for a while now without any luck.
>
> Attempts to each out to peer...@phoenix-ix.net as well as Ninja-IX have
> been without any luck. We also tried reaching out to Paul Emmons via
> LinkedIn mail and never received a response.
>
>
> Paul is the correct person.
>
>-Bill
>
>
>

Re: Phoenix-IX Contact

[Eric Kuhnke]

Always a good time for network operators to consider the risks of having
any one person as a single point of failure for something kind of important:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor

Disaster recovery and continuity of business plans should always include
the concept of what if some percentage of the key team members were to be
suddenly unavailable permanently (the Malaysian airline incident, for
example).



On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:08 PM Kate Gerry  wrote:

> Is there anybody else even there? I thought that it was all Paul's show!
>
> If I was able to (as in, had access to), I would offer to help/run with
> the IX. I may live in California, but it's a realistic car trip back and
> forth to Phoenix.
>
> --
> Kate
>
> On Nov 9, 2020, at 17:58, Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
> Paul's LinkedIn seems to show that he checked out in April. Let me know if
> you have any success reaching anyone there.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
> 
> --
> *From: *"Kate Gerry" 
> *To: *"Bill Woodcock" 
> *Cc: *nanog@nanog.org
> *Sent: *Monday, November 9, 2020 5:44:42 PM
> *Subject: *Re: Phoenix-IX Contact
>
> Just a heads-up, I never heard a word from anybody at Phoenix-IX.
>
> Is there anybody still running the IX? Or is it just on autopilot? It'd be
> nice if anybody had some information on whatever happened to Paul.
> Hopefully he is okay!
>
> --
> Kate
>
> On Sep 14, 2020, at 13:33, Kate Gerry  wrote:
>
> Thank Bill! I've been trying to reach Paul for ages now, hopefully he pops
> back up again. We want to upgrade.
>
> On an unrelated note, it looks like somebody has their ticket system
> subscribed to the list... Awesome.
>
> *From: *Dating Support 
> *Subject: **[#WQV-291-95071]: Phoenix-IX Contact*
> *Date: *September 14, 2020 at 12:43:20 PDT
> *To: *kge...@outlook.com
> *Reply-To: *dating.supp...@csvwebsupport.com
>
> Kate Gerry,
>
> Thank you for contacting us. This is an automated response confirming the
> receipt of your ticket. Our team will get back to you within 24 hours.
>
>
> --
> Kate
>
>
> On Sep 14, 2020, at 12:48, Bill Woodcock  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:31 PM, Kate Gerry  wrote:
>
> Does anybody have a contact who works at Phoenix-IX? I have been
> attempting to reach somebody there for a while now without any luck.
>
> Attempts to each out to peer...@phoenix-ix.net as well as Ninja-IX have
> been without any luck. We also tried reaching out to Paul Emmons via
> LinkedIn mail and never received a response.
>
>
> Paul is the correct person.
>
>-Bill
>
>
>

Re: Phoenix-IX Contact

[Walt]

Is it time for a new IX in Phoenix?

From: NANOG  on behalf of Kate Gerry 

Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:07 PM
To: Mike Hammett 
Cc: "nanog@nanog.org" 
Subject: Re: Phoenix-IX Contact

Is there anybody else even there? I thought that it was all Paul's show!

If I was able to (as in, had access to), I would offer to help/run with the IX. 
I may live in California, but it's a realistic car trip back and forth to 
Phoenix.

--
Kate


On Nov 9, 2020, at 17:58, Mike Hammett 
mailto:na...@ics-il.net>> wrote:

Paul's LinkedIn seems to show that he checked out in April. Let me know if you 
have any success reaching anyone there.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
[Image removed by sender.][Image removed by 
sender.][Image 
removed by 
sender.][Image
 removed by sender.]
Midwest Internet Exchange
[Image removed by sender.][Image removed by 
sender.][Image 
removed by sender.]
The Brothers WISP
[Image removed by sender.][Image 
removed by sender.]

From: "Kate Gerry" mailto:kge...@outlook.com>>
To: "Bill Woodcock" mailto:wo...@pch.net>>
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 5:44:42 PM
Subject: Re: Phoenix-IX Contact

Just a heads-up, I never heard a word from anybody at Phoenix-IX.

Is there anybody still running the IX? Or is it just on autopilot? It'd be nice 
if anybody had some information on whatever happened to Paul. Hopefully he is 
okay!

--
Kate

On Sep 14, 2020, at 13:33, Kate Gerry 
mailto:kge...@outlook.com>> wrote:

Thank Bill! I've been trying to reach Paul for ages now, hopefully he pops back 
up again. We want to upgrade.

On an unrelated note, it looks like somebody has their ticket system subscribed 
to the list... Awesome.

From: Dating Support 
mailto:dating.supp...@csvwebsupport.com>>
Subject: [#WQV-291-95071]: Phoenix-IX Contact
Date: September 14, 2020 at 12:43:20 PDT
To: kge...@outlook.com
Reply-To: 
dating.supp...@csvwebsupport.com

Kate Gerry,

Thank you for contacting us. This is an automated response confirming the 
receipt of your ticket. Our team will get back to you within 24 hours.

--
Kate


On Sep 14, 2020, at 12:48, Bill Woodcock mailto:wo...@pch.net>> 
wrote:


On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:31 PM, Kate Gerry 
mailto:kge...@outlook.com>> wrote:

Does anybody have a contact who works at Phoenix-IX? I have been attempting to 
reach somebody there for a while now without any luck.

Attempts to each out to peer...@phoenix-ix.net 
as well as Ninja-IX have been without any luck. We also tried reaching out to 
Paul Emmons via LinkedIn mail and never received a response.

Paul is the correct person.

   -Bill

Technology risk without safeguards

[Suresh Kalkunte]

To me, this discussion is as good that could come out of a Congressional
Committee proceeding. Ie., empower and deliberate on the substantiveness of
a subject that affects the unsuspecting and defenseless.

>>raw garlic assimilation
>>
> This thread is definitely going to be used
> in a future court case
>
Is there scope for misunderstanding my experiences to overcome superior
adversity? consider viewing competitionunlimited.wordpress.com/exposure-
scenarios, a page I authored after the discussion on controlled vs.
un-controlled exposure.

On Tuesday, November 10, 2020, Jon Sands  wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 8:00 PM Suresh Kalkunte  wrote:
>
>>  raw garlic assimilation
>>
>
> This thread is definitely going to be used in a future court case
>
>>

Re: Technology risk without safeguards

[Jon Sands]

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 8:00 PM Suresh Kalkunte  wrote:

>  raw garlic assimilation
>

This thread is definitely going to be used in a future court case

>