RE: Routed optical networks

[Vasilenko Eduard via NANOG]

Disclaimer: Metaverse has not changed Metro traffic yet. Then ...

I am puzzled when people talk about 400GE and Tbps in the Mero context.
For historical reasons, Metro is still about 2*2*10GE (one "2" for redundancy, 
another "2" for capacity) in the majority of cases worldwide.
How many BRASes serve more than 4/1.5=27k users in the busy hour?
It means that 50GE is the best interface now for the majority of cases. 
2*50GE=100Gbps is good room for growth.
Of course, exceptions could be. I know BRAS that handles 86k subscribers (do 
not recommend anybody to push the limits - it was so painful).

We have just 2 eyes and look at video content about 22h per week (on average). 
Our eyes do not permit us to see resolution better than particular for chosen 
distance (4k for typical TV, HD for smartphones, and so on). Color depth 10bits 
is enough for the majority, 12bits is sure enough for everybody. 120 frames/sec 
is enough for everybody. It would never change - it is our genetics.
Fortunately for Carriers, the traffic has a limit. You have probably seen that 
every year traffic growth % is decreasing. The Internet is stabilizing and 
approaching the plateau.
How much growth is still awaiting us? 1.5? 1.4? It needs separate research. The 
result would be tailored for whom would pay for the research.
IMHO: It is not mandatory that 100GE would become massive in the metro. (I know 
that 100GE is already massive in the DC CLOS)

Additionally, who would pay for this traffic growth? It also limits traffic at 
some point.
I hope it would happen after we would get our 22h/4k/12bit/120hz.

Now, you could argue that Metaverse would jump and multiply traffic by an 
additional 2x or 3x. Then 400GE may be needed.
Sorry, but it is speculation yet. It is not a trend like the current 
(declining) traffic growth.

Ed/
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces+vasilenko.eduard=huawei@nanog.org] On 
Behalf Of Phil Bedard
Sent: Thursday, May 4, 2023 8:32 PM
To: Etienne-Victor Depasquale ; NANOG 
Subject: Re: Routed optical networks

It's not necessarily metro specific although the metro networks could lend 
themselves to overall optimizations.

The adoption of ZR/ZR+ IPoWDM currently somewhat corresponds with your adoption 
of 400G since today they require a QDD port.   There are 100G QDD ports but 
that's not all that popular yet.   Of course there is work to do something 
similar in QSFP28 if the power can be reduced to what is supported by an 
existing QSFP28 port in most devices.   In larger networks with higher speed 
requirements and moving to 400G with QDD, using the DCO optics for connecting 
routers is kind of a no-brainer vs. a traditional muxponder.   Whether that's 
over a ROADM based optical network or not, especially at metro/regional 
distances.

There are very large deployments of IPoDWDM over passive DWDM or dark fiber for 
access and aggregation networks where the aggregate required bandwidth doesn't 
exceed the capabilities of those optics.  It's been done at 10G for many years. 
 With the advent of pluggable EDFA amplifiers, you can even build links up to 
120km* (perfect dark fiber)  carrying tens of terabits of traffic without any 
additional active optical equipment.

It's my personal opinion we aren't to the days yet of where we can simply build 
an all packet network with no photonic switching that carries all services, but 
eventually (random # of years) it gets there for many networks.  There are also 
always going to be high performance applications for transponders where 
pluggable optics aren't a good fit.

Carrying high speed private line/wavelength type services as well is a 
different topic than interconnecting IP devices.

Thanks,
Phil


From: NANOG 
mailto:nanog-bounces+bedard.phil=gmail@nanog.org>>
 on behalf of Etienne-Victor Depasquale via NANOG 
mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Date: Monday, May 1, 2023 at 2:30 PM
To: NANOG mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: Routed optical networks
Hello folks,

Simple question: does "routed optical networks" have a clear meaning in the 
metro area context, or not?

Put differently: does it call to mind a well-defined stack of technologies in 
the control and data planes of metro-area networks?

I'm asking because I'm having some thoughts about the clarity of this term, in 
the process of carrying out a qualitative survey of the results of the 
metro-area networks survey.

Cheers,

Etienne

--
Ing. Etienne-Victor Depasquale
Assistant Lecturer
Department of Communications & Computer Engineering
Faculty of Information & Communication Technology
University of Malta
Web. https://www.um.edu.mt/profile/etiennedepasquale

Re: Routed optical networks

[Mark Tinka]

On 5/4/23 19:32, Phil Bedard wrote:

It’s my personal opinion we aren’t to the days yet of where we can 
simply build an all packet network with no photonic switching that 
carries all services, but eventually (random # of years) it gets there 
for many networks.  There are also always going to be high performance 
applications for transponders where pluggable optics aren’t a good fit.




I think every time the IP space gets close to running an all-packet 
network, the Transport folk come out with an easier way to do it, that 
it's too hard to ignore.


Based on that, I think they will always be one step ahead, with the key 
advantage being reliability of capacity over the distance, for the cost.


The farther your fibre has to run, the costlier it gets to do it without 
DWDM.


I mean, it's only now that 100G-ZR is becoming a reality for packet 
networks, and we are talking thousands of US$ for optics to get us 80km 
- 120km distance. Meanwhile, DWDM vendors can get you 800Gbps per 
wavelength in the same distance (or 30X that distance) far less cheaply.


I get the appeal of not needing DWDM gear to underlay your packet 
network... it's neater and offers fewer points of failure. But unless 
you are dealing with very short distances and can ride a reasonable 
balance between service features and switching/forwarding capacity in 
your router/switch, it's going to be hard to ignore the DWDM gear if you 
are trying to be a serious operation, at that scale, over a wide area.


Mark.

Re: Routed optical networks

[Mark Tinka]

On 5/4/23 15:03, Jared Mauch wrote:


I’m a bit shocked that I now need a 288F cable on some of my routes to support 
future expansion, but that fiber cost is still small compared to the labor.


Yes, labour is generally the cost.

And then way-leaves add cost in terms of time and lost opportunities.

Mark.

Re: Routed optical networks

[Mark Tinka]

On 5/4/23 14:27, Vasilenko Eduard wrote:


I had an experience in one big PTT. Fiber was easy in the majority of Metro 
places.
Even faster than DWDM or router commissioning.
It is just 1 PTT. Hence, an example could not be counted.


Yeah - I usually tend to look at what happens in the majority of cases.

There is always at least one example in an exception, but it still 
remains an exception.


Mark.

Re: Aptum refuses to SWIP

[Matt Harris]

On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 9:09 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
li...@packetflux.com> wrote:

> I can't speak for aptum, but I'm curious as to why this is important to
> you?   I'm not trying to discount this at all,  just curious why this
> matters in the internet of 2023.
>
> I went through a couple years back and removed all of our mostly outdated
> SWIP data and replaced it with generic information.  But I run an eyeballs
> network and I don't remember the last time we allocated something shorter
> than a /28 to a customer.
>
> I can think of a couple reasons it might be good for the swip to still
> reflect the actual customer.   But most of the ones I can think of don't
> apply as much anymore.   About the only things I can think about which may
> matter has to do with reverse dns delegation if the parent block is smaller
> than a /16 and maybe having specific contact or address information in
> specific circumstances.
>
> Mainly I'm asking to update my personal knowledge of how these records are
> used anymore.
>

Without taking rdns into consideration, a primary use is managing whois
data to enable proper routing of abuse reports. So for an eyeball network,
you probably want those routed to your organization since most of your
customers won't have IT staff capable of dealing with them.

- mdh

Matt Harris
VP OF INFRASTRUCTURE
Follow us on LinkedIn!
matt.har...@netfire.net
816-256-5446
www.netfire.com

Re: Aptum refuses to SWIP

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

I can't speak for aptum, but I'm curious as to why this is important to
you?   I'm not trying to discount this at all,  just curious why this
matters in the internet of 2023.

I went through a couple years back and removed all of our mostly outdated
SWIP data and replaced it with generic information.  But I run an eyeballs
network and I don't remember the last time we allocated something shorter
than a /28 to a customer.

I can think of a couple reasons it might be good for the swip to still
reflect the actual customer.   But most of the ones I can think of don't
apply as much anymore.   About the only things I can think about which may
matter has to do with reverse dns delegation if the parent block is smaller
than a /16 and maybe having specific contact or address information in
specific circumstances.

Mainly I'm asking to update my personal knowledge of how these records are
used anymore.

On Thu, May 4, 2023, 3:36 PM Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) <
lyn...@orthanc.ca> wrote:

> It seems Aptum has decided they will no longer SWIP any of their
> address space.  I've been trying to get a SWIP for a /48 that we
> were allocated in 2017, but they refuse.  And I also see they have
> pro-actively gone in and un-SWIPed both our /24s.
>
> Since you are ignoring my tickets about this, maybe somebody from
> Aptum would care to speak up in public and defend this "policy?"
>
> --lyndon
>

Aptum refuses to SWIP

[Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)]

It seems Aptum has decided they will no longer SWIP any of their
address space.  I've been trying to get a SWIP for a /48 that we
were allocated in 2017, but they refuse.  And I also see they have
pro-actively gone in and un-SWIPed both our /24s.

Since you are ignoring my tickets about this, maybe somebody from
Aptum would care to speak up in public and defend this "policy?"

--lyndon

Re: Routed optical networks

[Phil Bedard]

It’s not necessarily metro specific although the metro networks could lend 
themselves to overall optimizations.

The adoption of ZR/ZR+ IPoWDM currently somewhat corresponds with your adoption 
of 400G since today they require a QDD port.   There are 100G QDD ports but 
that’s not all that popular yet.   Of course there is work to do something 
similar in QSFP28 if the power can be reduced to what is supported by an 
existing QSFP28 port in most devices.   In larger networks with higher speed 
requirements and moving to 400G with QDD, using the DCO optics for connecting 
routers is kind of a no-brainer vs. a traditional muxponder.   Whether that’s 
over a ROADM based optical network or not, especially at metro/regional 
distances.

There are very large deployments of IPoDWDM over passive DWDM or dark fiber for 
access and aggregation networks where the aggregate required bandwidth doesn’t 
exceed the capabilities of those optics.  It’s been done at 10G for many years. 
 With the advent of pluggable EDFA amplifiers, you can even build links up to 
120km* (perfect dark fiber)  carrying tens of terabits of traffic without any 
additional active optical equipment.

It’s my personal opinion we aren’t to the days yet of where we can simply build 
an all packet network with no photonic switching that carries all services, but 
eventually (random # of years) it gets there for many networks.  There are also 
always going to be high performance applications for transponders where 
pluggable optics aren’t a good fit.

Carrying high speed private line/wavelength type services as well is a 
different topic than interconnecting IP devices.

Thanks,
Phil


From: NANOG  on behalf of 
Etienne-Victor Depasquale via NANOG 
Date: Monday, May 1, 2023 at 2:30 PM
To: NANOG 
Subject: Routed optical networks
Hello folks,

Simple question: does "routed optical networks" have a clear meaning in the 
metro area context, or not?

Put differently: does it call to mind a well-defined stack of technologies in 
the control and data planes of metro-area networks?

I'm asking because I'm having some thoughts about the clarity of this term, in 
the process of carrying out a qualitative survey of the results of the 
metro-area networks survey.

Cheers,

Etienne

--
Ing. Etienne-Victor Depasquale
Assistant Lecturer
Department of Communications & Computer Engineering
Faculty of Information & Communication Technology
University of Malta
Web. https://www.um.edu.mt/profile/etiennedepasquale

[NANOG-announce] Registration is Open for Hackathon 88 + DNS 1-Day Course + More

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Registration is Open for Hackathon 88 + DNS 1-Day Course + More

[Nanog News]

*Registration is Open for Hackathon 88*
*Hackathon 88 will Kick-Off 07, Jun *

The NANOG Hackathons are hands-on and educational at their core — directly
supporting the most critical aspects of our mission, so all levels are
welcome to participate and registration is free.

*REGISTER NOW * 

*Registration Open for DNS 1-Day Course *
*Presented by Eddy Winstead *

*Can you Dig It?* All skill levels are welcome.

Date: 11 June  — In-person class will take place during NANOG 88.

*MORE INFO  *

*Did You Know About our LGBTQ+ Group at NANOG?*
*Find Community in our Online Discussion Threads*

The NANOG Affinity Groups are part of the Community Forum and allow our
members to connect over shared interests.

*We need your voice! *Connect with others in the tech industry and find
mentorship and support while sharing your experiences.

*MORE INFO * 

Re: Routed optical networks

[Jared Mauch]

> On May 4, 2023, at 6:21 AM, Mark Tinka  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 5/4/23 11:40, Denis Fondras wrote:
> 
>> 
>> You may also take into account the time to deliver.
>> Laying fiber takes much more time than plugging a colored optic.
> 
> Indeed - part of the expense of running new fibre is the time it takes to 
> start making money from it.
> 

One of the advantages in the US right now is that capital cost is being 
subsidized or reimbursed by state or federal government, leaving room to 
expand.  Some providers have missed out on this, and others have capitalized on 
it.  It’s very much a mix of people who are chasing that $ and those that are 
not.  

I will say that merchant silicon has it’s place, but so does the vendor 
silicon.  At some point if you get the fiber to that location, unlocking the 
capacity becomes much easier with CEx or similar modules to overlay services.

Making the choice to build a quality fiber first network is important, and why 
I have already had to take routes that I had planned lower count fibers on and 
upgrade them.  I’m a bit shocked that I now need a 288F cable on some of my 
routes to support future expansion, but that fiber cost is still small compared 
to the labor.

- Jared

Re: Routed optical networks

[Ge DUPIN]

Many Big PTTs have a lot of ducts in many places, it is easy for them to lay 
fibers, especially in cities.

Ge

> Le 4 mai 2023 à 14:27, Vasilenko Eduard via NANOG  a écrit :
> 
> I had an experience in one big PTT. Fiber was easy in the majority of Metro 
> places.
> Even faster than DWDM or router commissioning.
> It is just 1 PTT. Hence, an example could not be counted.
> Eduard
> -Original Message-
> From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces+vasilenko.eduard=huawei@nanog.org] On 
> Behalf Of Mark Tinka
> Sent: Thursday, May 4, 2023 2:11 PM
> To: nanog@nanog.org
> Subject: Re: Routed optical networks
> 
> 
> 
> On 5/4/23 12:58, Vasilenko Eduard via NANOG wrote:
> 
>> Well, ISP is typically plan something for a year. It is more than enough for 
>> both.
> 
> The real world is much less certain, especially in these economic times.
> 
> 
>> Funny, that with the current lead times for electronics, Fiber could be 
>> faster.
>> Of course, it is a temporary glitch.
> 
> Even in the same market, no two lays of fibre can be guaranteed to be 
> completed in the same time.
> 
> Mark.
> 

RE: Routed optical networks

[Vasilenko Eduard via NANOG]

> The economics are such these days that in many circumstances, bean counters 
> don't want to hear about payback in years, they want to hear it in quarters.  
> Short term financial thinking is dominant.
True. The industry is on decline. On the way to other utilities.
But then any project is a challenge. Not just fiber that may be cheaper for 
Metro than DWDM.
Eduard
From: Tom Beecher [mailto:beec...@beecher.cc]
Sent: Thursday, May 4, 2023 3:26 PM
To: Vasilenko Eduard 
Cc: Denis Fondras ; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Routed optical networks

Well, ISP is typically plan something for a year. It is more than enough for 
both.

s/more/should be/

The economics are such these days that in many circumstances, bean counters 
don't want to hear about payback in years, they want to hear it in quarters.  
Short term financial thinking is dominant.

On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 6:59 AM Vasilenko Eduard via NANOG 
mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> wrote:
Well, ISP is typically plan something for a year. It is more than enough for 
both.

Funny, that with the current lead times for electronics, Fiber could be faster.
Of course, it is a temporary glitch.

Ed/
-Original Message-
From: NANOG 
[mailto:nanog-bounces+vasilenko.eduard=huawei@nanog.org]
 On Behalf Of Denis Fondras
Sent: Thursday, May 4, 2023 12:41 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Routed optical networks

Le Wed, May 03, 2023 at 06:20:48AM +, Vasilenko Eduard via NANOG a écrit :
>
> Additionally, I am sure that in many countries/Metro it is cheaper to lay 
> down a new fiber than to provision DWDM, even if it is a pizza box. The 
> colored interface is still very expensive.
> Of course, there are some Cities (not “towns”) where it is very expensive or 
> maybe even impossible to lay down a new fiber.
> Yes, in the majority of cases, it is cheaper to lay down fiber.
>

You may also take into account the time to deliver.
Laying fiber takes much more time than plugging a colored optic.

RE: Routed optical networks

[Vasilenko Eduard via NANOG]

I had an experience in one big PTT. Fiber was easy in the majority of Metro 
places.
Even faster than DWDM or router commissioning.
It is just 1 PTT. Hence, an example could not be counted.
Eduard
-Original Message-
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces+vasilenko.eduard=huawei@nanog.org] On 
Behalf Of Mark Tinka
Sent: Thursday, May 4, 2023 2:11 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Routed optical networks



On 5/4/23 12:58, Vasilenko Eduard via NANOG wrote:

> Well, ISP is typically plan something for a year. It is more than enough for 
> both.

The real world is much less certain, especially in these economic times.


> Funny, that with the current lead times for electronics, Fiber could be 
> faster.
> Of course, it is a temporary glitch.

Even in the same market, no two lays of fibre can be guaranteed to be completed 
in the same time.

Mark.

Re: Routed optical networks

[Tom Beecher]

>
> Well, ISP is typically plan something for a year. It is more than enough
> for both.
>

s/more/should be/

The economics are such these days that in many circumstances, bean counters
don't want to hear about payback in years, they want to hear it in
quarters.  Short term financial thinking is dominant.

On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 6:59 AM Vasilenko Eduard via NANOG 
wrote:

> Well, ISP is typically plan something for a year. It is more than enough
> for both.
>
> Funny, that with the current lead times for electronics, Fiber could be
> faster.
> Of course, it is a temporary glitch.
>
> Ed/
> -Original Message-
> From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces+vasilenko.eduard=huawei@nanog.org]
> On Behalf Of Denis Fondras
> Sent: Thursday, May 4, 2023 12:41 PM
> To: nanog@nanog.org
> Subject: Re: Routed optical networks
>
> Le Wed, May 03, 2023 at 06:20:48AM +, Vasilenko Eduard via NANOG a
> écrit :
> >
> > Additionally, I am sure that in many countries/Metro it is cheaper to
> lay down a new fiber than to provision DWDM, even if it is a pizza box. The
> colored interface is still very expensive.
> > Of course, there are some Cities (not “towns”) where it is very
> expensive or maybe even impossible to lay down a new fiber.
> > Yes, in the majority of cases, it is cheaper to lay down fiber.
> >
>
> You may also take into account the time to deliver.
> Laying fiber takes much more time than plugging a colored optic.
>
>

Re: Routed optical networks

[Mark Tinka]

On 5/4/23 12:58, Vasilenko Eduard via NANOG wrote:


Well, ISP is typically plan something for a year. It is more than enough for 
both.


The real world is much less certain, especially in these economic times.



Funny, that with the current lead times for electronics, Fiber could be faster.
Of course, it is a temporary glitch.


Even in the same market, no two lays of fibre can be guaranteed to be 
completed in the same time.


Mark.

RE: Routed optical networks

[Vasilenko Eduard via NANOG]

Well, ISP is typically plan something for a year. It is more than enough for 
both.

Funny, that with the current lead times for electronics, Fiber could be faster.
Of course, it is a temporary glitch.

Ed/
-Original Message-
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces+vasilenko.eduard=huawei@nanog.org] On 
Behalf Of Denis Fondras
Sent: Thursday, May 4, 2023 12:41 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Routed optical networks

Le Wed, May 03, 2023 at 06:20:48AM +, Vasilenko Eduard via NANOG a écrit :
> 
> Additionally, I am sure that in many countries/Metro it is cheaper to lay 
> down a new fiber than to provision DWDM, even if it is a pizza box. The 
> colored interface is still very expensive.
> Of course, there are some Cities (not “towns”) where it is very expensive or 
> maybe even impossible to lay down a new fiber.
> Yes, in the majority of cases, it is cheaper to lay down fiber.
> 

You may also take into account the time to deliver.
Laying fiber takes much more time than plugging a colored optic.

Re: Routed optical networks

[Mark Tinka]

On 5/4/23 11:40, Denis Fondras wrote:



You may also take into account the time to deliver.
Laying fiber takes much more time than plugging a colored optic.


Indeed - part of the expense of running new fibre is the time it takes 
to start making money from it.


Mark.

Re: Routed optical networks

[Denis Fondras]

Le Wed, May 03, 2023 at 06:20:48AM +, Vasilenko Eduard via NANOG a écrit :
> 
> Additionally, I am sure that in many countries/Metro it is cheaper to lay 
> down a new fiber than to provision DWDM, even if it is a pizza box. The 
> colored interface is still very expensive.
> Of course, there are some Cities (not “towns”) where it is very expensive or 
> maybe even impossible to lay down a new fiber.
> Yes, in the majority of cases, it is cheaper to lay down fiber.
> 

You may also take into account the time to deliver.
Laying fiber takes much more time than plugging a colored optic.