Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Casey Russell]

>
> After the last week or so, I wouldn’t trust a service provider who
> insisted on installing juniper at my site.


Gotta be careful with that attitude.  You can't have Cisco either if you
really mean that.  (or most any other enterprise provider really).


http://arstechnica.com/security/2015/09/malicious-cisco-router-backdoor-found-on-79-more-devices-25-in-the-us/
http://www.infoworld.com/article/2608141/internet-privacy/snowden--the-nsa-planted-backdoors-in-cisco-products.html



Casey Russell
Network Engineer
Kansas Research and Education Network

2029 Becker Drive, Suite 282

Lawrence, KS  66047
(785)856-9820  ext 9809
cruss...@kanren.net

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Valdis . Kletnieks]

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 08:37:25 +0100, Mikael Abrahamsson said:
> If someone like Consumer Reports or similar agency started testing and
> rating devices on these things like long-time support, automatic updates,
> software quality etc, and not just testing wifi speed as a factor of
> distance, we might get somewhere.

As finally we come full circle to the original question "who, if anybody,
has a list of which things are crap and which aren't" :)


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Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Mikael Abrahamsson]

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:

As finally we come full circle to the original question "who, if 
anybody, has a list of which things are crap and which aren't" :)


Yep, and as far as I know, this list doesn't exist because people doesn't 
care enough so that someone would put the effort into creating such a 
list.


--
Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Michael Thomas]

On 12/26/2015 11:37 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
Providing security updates is just a cost, there is no upside, because 
these boxes sit in a closet, unloved until they stop working, and 
they're thrown out and replaced by a new unloved box that goes into 
the closet until it stops working again.


IMO, this is the real problem, but there's a real opportunity. Routers 
are for most

people the only things which:

1) are always on
2) have internet connectivity

Which is pretty cool if you need something that is, oh say, a central 
controller

for your home. Put a headless Android in it, allow 3rd party apps, water the
lawn with it. Love ensues.

This is, I imagine, why Google bought Nest: they want to be that home 
central

controller. The home router is more ubiquitous though, IMHO.

Mike

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Stephen Satchell]

On 12/26/2015 11:37 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:

If someone like Consumer Reports or similar agency started testing and
rating devices on these things like long-time support, automatic
updates, software quality etc, and not just testing wifi speed as a
factor of distance, we might get somewhere.


Just how would a reviewer rate "long-time support" and "software 
quality"?  As for "automatic updates", that's at the whim of the 
manufacturer down the road, so any evaluation of updates would be dated 
the second it's printed.


Testing WiFi speed as a factor of distance is a repeatable test, so that 
the chance of a lawsuit over the result is slimmer.


Consumer Reports, for example, sends out a survey to its readers to 
collect information on long-term ownership experience of cars.  It's a 
large enough investment that people are willing to fill out the survey. 
 Not so broadband routers.

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Hugo Slabbert]

 From: Michael Thomas  -- Sent: 2015-12-27 - 08:49 

>
>
> On 12/26/2015 11:37 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
>> Providing security updates is just a cost, there is no upside, because
>> these boxes sit in a closet, unloved until they stop working, and
>> they're thrown out and replaced by a new unloved box that goes into
>> the closet until it stops working again.
>
> IMO, this is the real problem, but there's a real opportunity. Routers
> are for most
> people the only things which:
>
> 1) are always on
> 2) have internet connectivity
>
> Which is pretty cool if you need something that is, oh say, a central
> controller
> for your home. Put a headless Android in it, allow 3rd party apps, water the
> lawn with it. Love ensues.
>
> This is, I imagine, why Google bought Nest: they want to be that home
> central
> controller. The home router is more ubiquitous though, IMHO.

Hence: https://on.google.com/hub/

> Mike
>

--
Hugo
h...@slabnet.com: email, xmpp/jabber
also on Signal



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Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Michael Thomas]

Nice,  but i want my router to have an android environment itself, not 
just to

be controlled by my phone (which i want as well, of course).

The proximity sensor for app developers would be fun to play with, for 
example.


Mike

On 12/27/2015 09:43 AM, Hugo Slabbert wrote:


 From: Michael Thomas  -- Sent: 2015-12-27 - 08:49 



On 12/26/2015 11:37 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:

Providing security updates is just a cost, there is no upside, because
these boxes sit in a closet, unloved until they stop working, and
they're thrown out and replaced by a new unloved box that goes into
the closet until it stops working again.

IMO, this is the real problem, but there's a real opportunity. Routers
are for most
people the only things which:

1) are always on
2) have internet connectivity

Which is pretty cool if you need something that is, oh say, a central
controller
for your home. Put a headless Android in it, allow 3rd party apps, water the
lawn with it. Love ensues.

This is, I imagine, why Google bought Nest: they want to be that home
central
controller. The home router is more ubiquitous though, IMHO.

Hence: https://on.google.com/hub/


Mike


--
Hugo
h...@slabnet.com: email, xmpp/jabber
also on Signal

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Larry Sheldon]

On 12/27/2015 19:56, Mike wrote:


On 12/27/15, 4:57 PM, Larry Sheldon wrote:

On 12/26/2015 23:49, Mike wrote:

[snip]


Firstly, they are all junk. Every last one of them. Period. Broadband
routers are designed to be cheap and to appeal to people who don't know
any better, and who respond well (eg: make purchasing decisions) based
on the shape of the plastic, the color scheme employed, and number of
mysterious blinking lights that convey 'something important is
happening'. Further, the price point is $45 - $70 thereabouts, putting
some definite constraints on the actual quality of the engineering and
components that go into them. I feel that we, the service provider,
endure a significantly high and undue burden of cost associated with
providing ongoing support to customers as a result of the defects
contained therein.


Why don't you offer an acceptable (to you) device at a price
acceptable to me as a part of the service.  I'd buy it.



NO SUCH DEVICE EXISTS, because you can't afford it. If I were to take
you seriously however - and we're talking about eliminating all excuses
and simply getting down to it and making a marginally qualified showing
at expecting uninterrupted service - the entire environment is what has
to be solved. The device would be cisco or juniper branded, internal
redundancy / failover features to allow hitless upgrades or module
failures, have dual (preferably, triple) power supplies, would be
required to be housed in a locked enclosure with air conditioning and
online double conversion battery with the addition of an external backup
generator with its own separate backup fuel supply, which is further
tested weekly and mantained with inspections and oil changes. The router
would be under service contract with the manufacturer, would be
monitoring by my noc, and would receive appropriate software upgrades as
required, and you would pay for this monthly in addition to your
internet service. Furthermore, you also would be required to have at
least two distinct connections to me and make a deposit to provide
credit in the event you falsely claim 'trouble' where no trouble exists.
A seperate 'test pc', also in it's own enclosure and normally offlimits
to you, and connected to said router and backup power and such, would be
agreed upon as the test fixture that we would monitor TO. It would
display current network statistics including packet loss and latencies
to various on and off-net locations, with current time and date logging
on screen. You would agree that you are to blame each and every time you
'can't get on', while the test pc clearly shows on it's local screen to
you otherwise. You would be required to forfeit a portion of your
deposit each time you called for technical support and were determined
to be at fault and to blame for your own issue.


I'll accept the challenge and try to be briefer.

If it can't be did at a price I'll accept, then let us stop crying about 
how bad it is.  You don't like it, turn it off.


(For the record, I do not require all of that stuff--if I am "grid off" 
then having a standby power system would be nice to power our CPAPs, but 
commo is going to be down and it might as well be dark and quiet.)


And for the matter of "false" failure reports--there IS a work around 
for you:  From Day ONE, Hour Zero, Minute Zero, Second Zero, supply 
stuff that WORKS the way your sales people said it would.


If you start out peddling crap that does not work, you will establish 
yourself as a peddler of crap and the first place to call.


I used to work for a company that did a pretty good job of doing that so 
when somebody did call they often sounded apologetic and tended to need 
to be convinced that, no this one is ours, but we are on it and we hope 
to be back at  HH:MM.


For people that purchased large quantities of what we sold we provided 
alarm displays or ring downs to tell THEM we broke something.



--
sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Juvenal)

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Larry Sheldon]

On 12/26/2015 23:49, Mike wrote:

On 12/23/2015 06:49 PM, Lorell Hathcock wrote:

All:

Not all consumer grade customer premises equipment is created
equally.  But end customers sure think it is.  I have retirement aged
customers buying the crappiest routers and then blaming my cable
network for all their connection woes.  The real problem is that there
were plenty of problems on the cable network to deal with, so it was
impossible to tell between a problem that a customer was having with
their CPE versus a real problem in my network.


OK, I have resisted, but now I must ask.

I am coming up on 77 YOA, been un-employed for a long time, have a tiny 
toy network that supports a couple of lap-tops, a couple of desk-tops, a 
couple of net-work-connected printers, and a melange of 
visitor-transported "personal devices" NOS--the latter group, the two 
lap-tops, one of the printers, and one of the desk-tops supported by 3 
wiffy radios (one radio is a port of the "routher").


My network sees the the world via a cable-company provided MODEM (which 
also supports the telephone service in the house) and a WRT54GL 
"router", which I guess is what y'all are talking about (although it 
looks to me more like a 6-port bridge that can do NAT).


I've had one "router" fail and replaced it.  I have myriad network 
failures that go away if I wait long enough (I have called in a few 
times, mostly to confirm that the cable has gone dark and they know it, 
a couple to have them tell me to reboot everything I rebooted before I 
called them.  In some of those incidents the "trouble came clear while 
testing", the rest "came clear while waiting for the repair man to get 
here".


Just what is it that I should be doing better?  And where is this better 
equipment available?


[tl;dr;wrn]

--
sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Juvenal)

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Hugo Slabbert]

On Sun 2015-Dec-27 09:58:50 -0800, Michael Thomas  wrote:

Nice,  but i want my router to have an android environment itself, not 
just to

be controlled by my phone (which i want as well, of course).


Sure.  My message was strictly in response to:


This is, I imagine, why Google bought Nest: they want to be that home
central controller. The home router is more ubiquitous though, IMHO.


...and not specifically about:


Which is pretty cool if you need something that is, oh say, a central
controller for your home. Put a headless Android in it, allow 3rd party 
apps, water the lawn with it. Love ensues.


--
Hugo

h...@slabnet.com: email, xmpp/jabber
PGP fingerprint (B178313E):
CF18 15FA 9FE4 0CD1 2319 1D77 9AB1 0FFD B178 313E

(also on textsecure & redphone)



The proximity sensor for app developers would be fun to play with, for 
example.


Mike

On 12/27/2015 09:43 AM, Hugo Slabbert wrote:


 From: Michael Thomas  -- Sent: 2015-12-27 - 08:49 



On 12/26/2015 11:37 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:

Providing security updates is just a cost, there is no upside, because
these boxes sit in a closet, unloved until they stop working, and
they're thrown out and replaced by a new unloved box that goes into
the closet until it stops working again.

IMO, this is the real problem, but there's a real opportunity. Routers
are for most
people the only things which:

1) are always on
2) have internet connectivity

Which is pretty cool if you need something that is, oh say, a central
controller
for your home. Put a headless Android in it, allow 3rd party apps, water the
lawn with it. Love ensues.

This is, I imagine, why Google bought Nest: they want to be that home
central
controller. The home router is more ubiquitous though, IMHO.

Hence: https://on.google.com/hub/


Mike


--
Hugo
h...@slabnet.com: email, xmpp/jabber
also on Signal





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Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[John Levine]

>> Based over what has been leaked, announced, or passed as pork barrel since
>> 9/11, its probably time a tin foil hat factory was created to speed up the
>> issuance of said hats.
>
>https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/shieldapparel/shield-the-world-s-first-signal-proof-headwear

No need to wait, order now:

https://www.etsy.com/listing/55473505/knit-tinfoil-hat-made-to-order

R's,
John

RE: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Keith Medcalf]

On Sunday, 27 December, 2015 17:58, Larry Sheldon  said:
> On 12/26/2015 23:49, Mike wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Firstly, they are all junk. Every last one of them. Period. Broadband
> > routers are designed to be cheap and to appeal to people who don't know
> > any better, and who respond well (eg: make purchasing decisions) based
> > on the shape of the plastic, the color scheme employed, and number of
> > mysterious blinking lights that convey 'something important is
> > happening'. Further, the price point is $45 - $70 thereabouts, putting
> > some definite constraints on the actual quality of the engineering and
> > components that go into them. I feel that we, the service provider,
> > endure a significantly high and undue burden of cost associated with
> > providing ongoing support to customers as a result of the defects
> > contained therein.

> Why don't you offer an acceptable (to you) device at a price acceptable
> to me as a part of the service.  I'd buy it.

Cable Companies / Telco's cannot do that.
If you bought the device you would want control of it.  (PWC do not permit 
foreign controlled devices on their networks)
This is anti-thetical to their (CableCo/TelCo) business model.

This is why most PWC (People With Clue) have the CableCo/TelCo configure their 
crap as a pure bridge with all other features disabled and use their own 
equipment.  The local lan port on the bridge is the Demarc.

If there is "no transport" at the demarc port, the problem lies with the 
CableCo/TelCo.  If there is, the problem is your own equipment.

Telling where the problem lies is trivial.

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[James Downs]

> On Dec 27, 2015, at 20:00, Keith Medcalf  wrote:

> They end up with ALL the data they can capture; they have COMPLETE management 
> control; and, can execute whatever code they want, without your prior 
> approval or choice, on the device at any time they please, including 
> permanent changes in the software and configuration.

What’s what I assume as well. This makes it, and the nest, and any related 
devices unwelcome.

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Josh Reynolds]

Based over what has been leaked, announced, or passed as pork barrel since
9/11, its probably time a tin foil hat factory was created to speed up the
issuance of said hats.
On Dec 27, 2015 10:10 PM, "Hugo Slabbert"  wrote:

> On Sun 2015-Dec-27 20:58:18 -0600, Josh Reynolds 
> wrote:
>
> And now that the new bill has passed, they (along with many others) will be
>> "mishandling" your data often and legally with 3 letter agencies and other
>> corporations. :(
>> On Dec 27, 2015 8:48 PM, "James Downs"  wrote:
>>
>>
>>> > On Dec 27, 2015, at 09:43, Hugo Slabbert  wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hence: https://on.google.com/hub/
>>>
>>> The device looks cool, and sounds cool, but what data does google end up
>>> with, and what remote management can they do? Their policy pages aren’t
>>> exactly clear, and they’ve mishandled personal data a number of times
>>> previously.
>>>
>>>
> Probably wise to be keep the tinfoil hat within arm's reach, I think.  My
> ref was strictly "yep, they appear to be making a play at the home
> controller market via a broadband router trojan horse" and not in any way
> an endorsement or comment on the merits of the device.
>
> --
> Hugo
>
> h...@slabnet.com: email, xmpp/jabber
> PGP fingerprint (B178313E):
> CF18 15FA 9FE4 0CD1 2319 1D77 9AB1 0FFD B178 313E
>
> (also on textsecure & redphone)
>

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Larry Sheldon]

On 12/27/2015 02:19, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 08:37:25 +0100, Mikael Abrahamsson said:

If someone like Consumer Reports or similar agency started testing and
rating devices on these things like long-time support, automatic updates,
software quality etc, and not just testing wifi speed as a factor of
distance, we might get somewhere.


As finally we come full circle to the original question "who, if anybody,
has a list of which things are crap and which aren't" :)


Indeed.  Interesting how often that has happened here over the years.

Sometimes it seems more like one of those "counseling" cartoons with 
everybody sitting in a circle learning new words for their problem 
description.



--
sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Juvenal)

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Valdis . Kletnieks]

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 17:56:02 -0800, Mike said:

> NO SUCH DEVICE EXISTS, because you can't afford it. If I were to take
> you seriously however - and we're talking about eliminating all excuses
> and simply getting down to it and making a marginally qualified showing
> at expecting uninterrupted service - the entire environment is what has
> to be solved.

OK. Now repeat the process, but specify something that isn't enterprise
quality, but *does* let you do basic diagnostics from the help desk or NOC.
Does it answer ping?  What's the signal quality? Does it need a push of
updated firmware?  What traffic load is it seeing?

That should get you 95% of the way there, at only 0.5% of the cost.


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Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Valdis . Kletnieks]

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 22:12:25 -0600, Josh Reynolds said:
> Based over what has been leaked, announced, or passed as pork barrel since
> 9/11, its probably time a tin foil hat factory was created to speed up the
> issuance of said hats.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/shieldapparel/shield-the-world-s-first-signal-proof-headwear


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Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Mike]

On 12/27/15, 4:57 PM, Larry Sheldon wrote:

On 12/26/2015 23:49, Mike wrote:

[snip]


Firstly, they are all junk. Every last one of them. Period. Broadband
routers are designed to be cheap and to appeal to people who don't know
any better, and who respond well (eg: make purchasing decisions) based
on the shape of the plastic, the color scheme employed, and number of
mysterious blinking lights that convey 'something important is
happening'. Further, the price point is $45 - $70 thereabouts, putting
some definite constraints on the actual quality of the engineering and
components that go into them. I feel that we, the service provider,
endure a significantly high and undue burden of cost associated with
providing ongoing support to customers as a result of the defects
contained therein.


Why don't you offer an acceptable (to you) device at a price 
acceptable to me as a part of the service.  I'd buy it.



NO SUCH DEVICE EXISTS, because you can't afford it. If I were to take 
you seriously however - and we're talking about eliminating all excuses 
and simply getting down to it and making a marginally qualified showing 
at expecting uninterrupted service - the entire environment is what has 
to be solved. The device would be cisco or juniper branded, internal 
redundancy / failover features to allow hitless upgrades or module 
failures, have dual (preferably, triple) power supplies, would be 
required to be housed in a locked enclosure with air conditioning and 
online double conversion battery with the addition of an external backup 
generator with its own separate backup fuel supply, which is further 
tested weekly and mantained with inspections and oil changes. The router 
would be under service contract with the manufacturer, would be 
monitoring by my noc, and would receive appropriate software upgrades as 
required, and you would pay for this monthly in addition to your 
internet service. Furthermore, you also would be required to have at 
least two distinct connections to me and make a deposit to provide 
credit in the event you falsely claim 'trouble' where no trouble exists. 
A seperate 'test pc', also in it's own enclosure and normally offlimits 
to you, and connected to said router and backup power and such, would be 
agreed upon as the test fixture that we would monitor TO. It would 
display current network statistics including packet loss and latencies 
to various on and off-net locations, with current time and date logging 
on screen. You would agree that you are to blame each and every time you 
'can't get on', while the test pc clearly shows on it's local screen to 
you otherwise. You would be required to forfeit a portion of your 
deposit each time you called for technical support and were determined 
to be at fault and to blame for your own issue.

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[James Downs]

> On Dec 27, 2015, at 17:56, Mike  wrote:

> The device would be cisco or juniper branded, internal redundancy / failover 
> features to allow hitless upgrades or module failures, have dual (preferably, 

After the last week or so, I wouldn’t trust a service provider who insisted on 
installing juniper at my site.

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Josh Reynolds]

And now that the new bill has passed, they (along with many others) will be
"mishandling" your data often and legally with 3 letter agencies and other
corporations. :(
On Dec 27, 2015 8:48 PM, "James Downs"  wrote:

>
> > On Dec 27, 2015, at 09:43, Hugo Slabbert  wrote:
>
> > Hence: https://on.google.com/hub/
>
> The device looks cool, and sounds cool, but what data does google end up
> with, and what remote management can they do? Their policy pages aren’t
> exactly clear, and they’ve mishandled personal data a number of times
> previously.
>
>

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Hugo Slabbert]

On Sun 2015-Dec-27 20:58:18 -0600, Josh Reynolds  wrote:


And now that the new bill has passed, they (along with many others) will be
"mishandling" your data often and legally with 3 letter agencies and other
corporations. :(
On Dec 27, 2015 8:48 PM, "James Downs"  wrote:



> On Dec 27, 2015, at 09:43, Hugo Slabbert  wrote:

> Hence: https://on.google.com/hub/

The device looks cool, and sounds cool, but what data does google end up
with, and what remote management can they do? Their policy pages aren’t
exactly clear, and they’ve mishandled personal data a number of times
previously.



Probably wise to be keep the tinfoil hat within arm's reach, I think.  My 
ref was strictly "yep, they appear to be making a play at the home 
controller market via a broadband router trojan horse" and not in any way 
an endorsement or comment on the merits of the device.


--
Hugo

h...@slabnet.com: email, xmpp/jabber
PGP fingerprint (B178313E):
CF18 15FA 9FE4 0CD1 2319 1D77 9AB1 0FFD B178 313E

(also on textsecure & redphone)


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Larry Sheldon]

On 12/26/2015 23:49, Mike wrote:

[snip]


Firstly, they are all junk. Every last one of them. Period. Broadband
routers are designed to be cheap and to appeal to people who don't know
any better, and who respond well (eg: make purchasing decisions) based
on the shape of the plastic, the color scheme employed, and number of
mysterious blinking lights that convey 'something important is
happening'. Further, the price point is $45 - $70 thereabouts, putting
some definite constraints on the actual quality of the engineering and
components that go into them. I feel that we, the service provider,
endure a significantly high and undue burden of cost associated with
providing ongoing support to customers as a result of the defects
contained therein.


Why don't you offer an acceptable (to you) device at a price acceptable 
to me as a part of the service.  I'd buy it.



--
sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Juvenal)

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[James Downs]

> On Dec 27, 2015, at 09:43, Hugo Slabbert  wrote:

> Hence: https://on.google.com/hub/

The device looks cool, and sounds cool, but what data does google end up with, 
and what remote management can they do? Their policy pages aren’t exactly 
clear, and they’ve mishandled personal data a number of times previously.

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Scott Weeks]

---
>https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/shieldapparel/shield-the-world-s-first-signal-proof-headwear
https://www.etsy.com/listing/55473505/knit-tinfoil-hat-made-to-order
--


There is just no end to stoopid.  There's apparently an 
infinite quantity available.

scott

RE: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Keith Medcalf]

On Sunday, 27 December, 2015 19:46, James Downs  said:
> > On Dec 27, 2015, at 09:43, Hugo Slabbert  wrote:

> > Hence: https://on.google.com/hub/

> The device looks cool, and sounds cool, but what data does google end up
> with, and what remote management can they do? Their policy pages aren’t
> exactly clear, and they’ve mishandled personal data a number of times
> previously.

They end up with ALL the data they can capture; they have COMPLETE management 
control; and, can execute whatever code they want, without your prior approval 
or choice, on the device at any time they please, including permanent changes 
in the software and configuration.

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Mikael Abrahamsson]

On Sat, 26 Dec 2015, Mike wrote:

As a service provider with largely residential/small business customers, I 
certainly have some thoughts on broadband routers. Sorry if this is overly 
long.


Firstly, they are all junk.


Yes, that's correct. We get what we pay for. If the ISP buys the CPE, 
their procurement department will get bonus for shaving off every cent off 
of the price possible, meaning the device manufacturer also pressures all 
their people to come up a way to checkbox all the features requested.


For the low price CPEs bought in the electronics store, mostly by people 
with no technical expertise, we have a similar situation. Shiny box, list 
of some checkbox features, sell it for 8-12 months until there is a new 
SOC which is slightly more cost reduced, release a new hardware revision 
(completely incompatible with the old one but from a black box of view 
does the same), start selling that rev instead.


Margins in this business are super tight and most of the vendors aren't 
making any money, just like the mobile phone business. Providing security 
updates is just a cost, there is no upside, because these boxes sit in a 
closet, unloved until they stop working, and they're thrown out and 
replaced by a new unloved box that goes into the closet until it stops 
working again.


So the ecosystem is completely broken, and I have no idea how to fix it.

If someone like Consumer Reports or similar agency started testing and 
rating devices on these things like long-time support, automatic updates, 
software quality etc, and not just testing wifi speed as a factor of 
distance, we might get somewhere.


--
Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Mike]

On 12/23/2015 06:49 PM, Lorell Hathcock wrote:

All:

Not all consumer grade customer premises equipment is created equally.  But end 
customers sure think it is.  I have retirement aged customers buying the 
crappiest routers and then blaming my cable network for all their connection 
woes.  The real problem is that there were plenty of problems on the cable 
network to deal with, so it was impossible to tell between a problem that a 
customer was having with their CPE versus a real problem in my network.

Much of that has been cleared up on my side now, but customers were used to 
blaming us for everything so that they don't even consider that their equipment 
could be to blame.

I want to be able to point out a third party list of all (most) broadband 
routers that rates them by performance.  Or that rates them by crappiness that 
I can send them to so they can look up their own router and determine if other 
users have had problems with that router and what can be done to fix it.

So far my search has been in vain.

Any thoughts?




As a service provider with largely residential/small business customers, 
I certainly have some thoughts on broadband routers. Sorry if this is 
overly long.


Firstly, they are all junk. Every last one of them. Period. Broadband 
routers are designed to be cheap and to appeal to people who don't know 
any better, and who respond well (eg: make purchasing decisions) based 
on the shape of the plastic, the color scheme employed, and number of 
mysterious blinking lights that convey 'something important is 
happening'. Further, the price point is $45 - $70 thereabouts, putting 
some definite constraints on the actual quality of the engineering and 
components that go into them. I feel that we, the service provider, 
endure a significantly high and undue burden of cost associated with 
providing ongoing support to customers as a result of the defects 
contained therein.


The laundry list of general operational issues for broadband routers, 
the ones that seem to be universal to every last one of them, goes 
something like this:


* Device lock ups
* Lost Settings
* Abysmal device security
* Inconsistent forwarding performance

I will try to describe these:

Device lock up is by far the most damming problem there is. The lights 
are on, the cables are plugged in, but you aren't going anywhere 
therefore the Internet must be down. This condition typically can be 
resolved by powercycling the device, and whaever problem it was 
encountering is magically remedied and all is well again. The concept of 
the device developing 'a problem' that can only be resolved by power 
cycling it, is foreign and completely blows end users minds. And yet, it 
is very common, and leaves end users stranded since they don't have even 
the most basic of troubleshooting abilities. We have had people who wait 
days or even a week or two before calling in to ask for support, because 
they think the problem will fix itself or that we the provider are 
simply down (and, in their eyes, we're frequently down anyways and this 
is just routine...) and so it's out of their hands.


We've noted that there are waves of device lockups that occur nearly 
every time the weather turns, which I attribute to brownouts and other 
variations in the power grid which occur at these times and when coming 
into the office after a stormy weekend we know to expect our phones to 
be lit up all day with enormous numbers of people all screaming about 
being 'down the whole weekend!' and every last one of them being able 
restore themselves via powercycling. We try to counsel these customers 
and educate them that 'power cycling' is always a good "first responder" 
step to try, and secondly, that they always should employ a good quality 
standby UPS in order to avoid these types of issues in the future, but 
they never listen and blame us anyways. Broadband routers are not 
designed with quality robust power supplies, which certainly lowers the 
costs, but contributes substantially to this problem. This particular 
issue, I think, is one of the greatest deficiencies shared by all.


Other times, 'lockup' simply resolves to router software problems, such 
as  a kernel panic, a crashed or bugged system process such as 
pppoe/pppd or dhcp, an overfull nat state table, memory leaks, or other 
purely software related troubles. The recovery procedure is the same, 
eg: power cycle the device, but as before, it doesn't actually "fix" the 
underlaying problem (bugged software), it merely alleviates the current 
symptom...until next time later when it happens again. Many of these 
troubles are simply outstanding bugs in the versions of the opensource 
code that the SDK is built on, which never seems to get updated and 
instead just uses the same old buggy code. Some custom kits also have 
just crap buggy protocol implementations that also just never get fixed. 
And usually, (although this is improving), many of these 

RE: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Frank Bulk]

+1.

Here's one managed option that non-Calix customers, such as WISPs, have found 
interesting: https://www.calix.com/systems/gigafamily-overview/GigaCenters.html

Frank

-Original Message-
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Justin Wilson
Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2015 9:40 AM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

The trend is a managed router service.  This way the ISP can control the 
customer experience a little better.  It also gives the ISP a DMARC point to 
test from, which is not as reliant on getting the customer involved. 

Mikrotik makes the hAP lite, which has a retail of $21.95.  
http://www.balticnetworks.com/mikrotik-hap-lite-tc-2-4ghz-indoor-access-point-tower-case-built-in-1-5dbi-antenna.html
 
<http://www.balticnetworks.com/mikrotik-hap-lite-tc-2-4ghz-indoor-access-point-tower-case-built-in-1-5dbi-antenna.html>
  .  This is *nix based router you can cheaply deploy even if a customer 
doesn’t want a managed router.  I have clients who deploy this as a “modem” if 
the customer chooses their own router.  By doing this the ISP can run pings, 
traceroutes, see usage, and other useful tools from the customer side.

Once you figure on your average support call on troubleshooting a customer 
router $21.95 is a drop in the bucket. Having a place to test from the customer 
side is invaluable.  Tons of tricks you can do too.  Turn on the wireless and 
have the customer connect to it.  Block out all traffic except what the 
customer is using for tests (i.e. wireless) so you can see if there are devices 
hogging the pipe.   You can do frequency scans to see how bad 2.4 is.You 
can get a dual band hAP router with AC.  It is more expensive so deploying one 
of those at every customer might not be feasible. 


Justin Wilson
j...@mtin.net

---
http://www.mtin.net Owner/CEO
xISP Solutions- Consulting – Data Centers - Bandwidth

http://www.midwest-ix.com  COO/Chairman

> On Dec 24, 2015, at 10:05 AM, Baldur Norddahl <baldur.nordd...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> I have reasonable success with simply lending the customer a router. In
> most cases they will then buy it afterwards, because it turns out that
> their old router was indeed bad.
> 
> But you can not win them all. Sometimes it is the other equipment that is
> bad, or the customer is clueless. They might even be lying because everyone
> knows you have to pretend it is worse than it actually is to get the doctor
> to take you seriously. Also who here can honestly say you never pretended
> to power cycle your Windows 95 when asked by the support bot on the phone,
> while actually running Linux, because that is the only way to get passed on
> to second tier support?
> 
> Just last week I had a customer complaining his router was bad. I went out
> there and found it in the basement, on the floor, under a bed with a ton of
> crap on top. He said it was so much worse than his old internet, where he
> had the router in the center of the house in his living room. Not too
> surprisingly? He claimed the routers were located the same place until I
> turned up at his house and asked to see it...
> 
> I do not think you will have much success at pointing to a list of
> supposedly bad routers. The world is just too complex. A bad experience can
> be due to anything really. Most likely they are on 2,4 GHz and the spectrum
> is crowded. Combine with an old computer (or even brand new!) that has crap
> 2,4 GHz wifi - nothing a router can do about that. I demonstrate that it
> can work with my own computer and then advise the customer on what to buy.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Baldur
> 

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Jason Baugher]

Providing a managed service is the direction we're going. In our case,
since we're a Calix shop, we're using their GigaCenters, but I'm sure there
are other vendor options out there.

Early indications are that 95+% of our residential customers would rather
pay a nominal "maintenance" fee and use our managed router than purchase
their own. From our end, we get a little more revenue, we ensure our
customers aren't blaming us for problems caused by junk routers, and we
provide a level of service and support that the big guys can't even come
close to matching.

On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Justin Wilson  wrote:

> The trend is a managed router service.  This way the ISP can control the
> customer experience a little better.  It also gives the ISP a DMARC point
> to test from, which is not as reliant on getting the customer involved.
>
> Mikrotik makes the hAP lite, which has a retail of $21.95.
> http://www.balticnetworks.com/mikrotik-hap-lite-tc-2-4ghz-indoor-access-point-tower-case-built-in-1-5dbi-antenna.html
> <
> http://www.balticnetworks.com/mikrotik-hap-lite-tc-2-4ghz-indoor-access-point-tower-case-built-in-1-5dbi-antenna.html>
> .  This is *nix based router you can cheaply deploy even if a customer
> doesn’t want a managed router.  I have clients who deploy this as a “modem”
> if the customer chooses their own router.  By doing this the ISP can run
> pings, traceroutes, see usage, and other useful tools from the customer
> side.
>
> Once you figure on your average support call on troubleshooting a customer
> router $21.95 is a drop in the bucket. Having a place to test from the
> customer side is invaluable.  Tons of tricks you can do too.  Turn on the
> wireless and have the customer connect to it.  Block out all traffic except
> what the customer is using for tests (i.e. wireless) so you can see if
> there are devices hogging the pipe.   You can do frequency scans to see how
> bad 2.4 is.You can get a dual band hAP router with AC.  It is more
> expensive so deploying one of those at every customer might not be feasible.
>
>
> Justin Wilson
> j...@mtin.net
>
> ---
> http://www.mtin.net Owner/CEO
> xISP Solutions- Consulting – Data Centers - Bandwidth
>
> http://www.midwest-ix.com  COO/Chairman
>
> > On Dec 24, 2015, at 10:05 AM, Baldur Norddahl 
> wrote:
> >
> > I have reasonable success with simply lending the customer a router. In
> > most cases they will then buy it afterwards, because it turns out that
> > their old router was indeed bad.
> >
> > But you can not win them all. Sometimes it is the other equipment that is
> > bad, or the customer is clueless. They might even be lying because
> everyone
> > knows you have to pretend it is worse than it actually is to get the
> doctor
> > to take you seriously. Also who here can honestly say you never pretended
> > to power cycle your Windows 95 when asked by the support bot on the
> phone,
> > while actually running Linux, because that is the only way to get passed
> on
> > to second tier support?
> >
> > Just last week I had a customer complaining his router was bad. I went
> out
> > there and found it in the basement, on the floor, under a bed with a ton
> of
> > crap on top. He said it was so much worse than his old internet, where he
> > had the router in the center of the house in his living room. Not too
> > surprisingly? He claimed the routers were located the same place until I
> > turned up at his house and asked to see it...
> >
> > I do not think you will have much success at pointing to a list of
> > supposedly bad routers. The world is just too complex. A bad experience
> can
> > be due to anything really. Most likely they are on 2,4 GHz and the
> spectrum
> > is crowded. Combine with an old computer (or even brand new!) that has
> crap
> > 2,4 GHz wifi - nothing a router can do about that. I demonstrate that it
> > can work with my own computer and then advise the customer on what to
> buy.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Baldur
> >
>
>

RE: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Keith Medcalf]

> to take you seriously. Also who here can honestly say you never pretended
> to power cycle your Windows 95 when asked by the support bot on the phone,
> while actually running Linux, because that is the only way to get passed
> on to second tier support?

I can honestly say that I have told support droids that I am rebooting 
"Windows" while actually running zOS.  Support droids have a definite problem 
with comprehending "No Transport" ...

I have even called to report a border router down on their network.  They 
complain and want to plug, unplug and reboot.  It isn't until 20 minutes later 
when the call volume exceeds the "geez there must be something wrong with our 
network" limit that someone actually bother to look and see where the problem 
is really located.

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Rob Seastrom]

> On Dec 23, 2015, at 10:38 PM, Lorell Hathcock  wrote:
> 
> That's a good troubleshooting technique when the customer is cooperative and 
> technically competent.

... and has ethernet on anything in the house, which is increasingly a bad 
thing to rely on.  Got an iPad, a smart phone, and a MacBook Air (any 
revision)?  Two of the three have substantially no support for hardwired 
Ethernet.  The third requires an external USB adaptor.  "Go out and buy this 
$24 gizmo so we can confirm that your $29 router/wireless device is indeed 
crap" is a hard thing to get most people to do.

-r

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Baldur Norddahl]

I have reasonable success with simply lending the customer a router. In
most cases they will then buy it afterwards, because it turns out that
their old router was indeed bad.

But you can not win them all. Sometimes it is the other equipment that is
bad, or the customer is clueless. They might even be lying because everyone
knows you have to pretend it is worse than it actually is to get the doctor
to take you seriously. Also who here can honestly say you never pretended
to power cycle your Windows 95 when asked by the support bot on the phone,
while actually running Linux, because that is the only way to get passed on
to second tier support?

Just last week I had a customer complaining his router was bad. I went out
there and found it in the basement, on the floor, under a bed with a ton of
crap on top. He said it was so much worse than his old internet, where he
had the router in the center of the house in his living room. Not too
surprisingly? He claimed the routers were located the same place until I
turned up at his house and asked to see it...

I do not think you will have much success at pointing to a list of
supposedly bad routers. The world is just too complex. A bad experience can
be due to anything really. Most likely they are on 2,4 GHz and the spectrum
is crowded. Combine with an old computer (or even brand new!) that has crap
2,4 GHz wifi - nothing a router can do about that. I demonstrate that it
can work with my own computer and then advise the customer on what to buy.

Regards,

Baldur

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Justin Wilson]

The trend is a managed router service.  This way the ISP can control the 
customer experience a little better.  It also gives the ISP a DMARC point to 
test from, which is not as reliant on getting the customer involved. 

Mikrotik makes the hAP lite, which has a retail of $21.95.  
http://www.balticnetworks.com/mikrotik-hap-lite-tc-2-4ghz-indoor-access-point-tower-case-built-in-1-5dbi-antenna.html
 

  .  This is *nix based router you can cheaply deploy even if a customer 
doesn’t want a managed router.  I have clients who deploy this as a “modem” if 
the customer chooses their own router.  By doing this the ISP can run pings, 
traceroutes, see usage, and other useful tools from the customer side.

Once you figure on your average support call on troubleshooting a customer 
router $21.95 is a drop in the bucket. Having a place to test from the customer 
side is invaluable.  Tons of tricks you can do too.  Turn on the wireless and 
have the customer connect to it.  Block out all traffic except what the 
customer is using for tests (i.e. wireless) so you can see if there are devices 
hogging the pipe.   You can do frequency scans to see how bad 2.4 is.You 
can get a dual band hAP router with AC.  It is more expensive so deploying one 
of those at every customer might not be feasible. 


Justin Wilson
j...@mtin.net

---
http://www.mtin.net Owner/CEO
xISP Solutions- Consulting – Data Centers - Bandwidth

http://www.midwest-ix.com  COO/Chairman

> On Dec 24, 2015, at 10:05 AM, Baldur Norddahl  
> wrote:
> 
> I have reasonable success with simply lending the customer a router. In
> most cases they will then buy it afterwards, because it turns out that
> their old router was indeed bad.
> 
> But you can not win them all. Sometimes it is the other equipment that is
> bad, or the customer is clueless. They might even be lying because everyone
> knows you have to pretend it is worse than it actually is to get the doctor
> to take you seriously. Also who here can honestly say you never pretended
> to power cycle your Windows 95 when asked by the support bot on the phone,
> while actually running Linux, because that is the only way to get passed on
> to second tier support?
> 
> Just last week I had a customer complaining his router was bad. I went out
> there and found it in the basement, on the floor, under a bed with a ton of
> crap on top. He said it was so much worse than his old internet, where he
> had the router in the center of the house in his living room. Not too
> surprisingly? He claimed the routers were located the same place until I
> turned up at his house and asked to see it...
> 
> I do not think you will have much success at pointing to a list of
> supposedly bad routers. The world is just too complex. A bad experience can
> be due to anything really. Most likely they are on 2,4 GHz and the spectrum
> is crowded. Combine with an old computer (or even brand new!) that has crap
> 2,4 GHz wifi - nothing a router can do about that. I demonstrate that it
> can work with my own computer and then advise the customer on what to buy.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Baldur
> 

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Josh Luthman]

Have the customer bypass the router.  Why suggest another router that may
have problems in the future that you ended up getting blamed for?


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 9:49 PM, Lorell Hathcock 
wrote:

> All:
>
> Not all consumer grade customer premises equipment is created equally.
> But end customers sure think it is.  I have retirement aged customers
> buying the crappiest routers and then blaming my cable network for all
> their connection woes.  The real problem is that there were plenty of
> problems on the cable network to deal with, so it was impossible to tell
> between a problem that a customer was having with their CPE versus a real
> problem in my network.
>
> Much of that has been cleared up on my side now, but customers were used
> to blaming us for everything so that they don't even consider that their
> equipment could be to blame.
>
> I want to be able to point out a third party list of all (most) broadband
> routers that rates them by performance.  Or that rates them by crappiness
> that I can send them to so they can look up their own router and determine
> if other users have had problems with that router and what can be done to
> fix it.
>
> So far my search has been in vain.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Lorell Hathcock
>
> Sent from my iPad

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Daniel C. Eckert]

For a place to find reviews about specific models, I'd just point them to
the product pages on Amazon and emphasize the ratings and narrative
descriptions.  Maybe not the most "scientific" method, but as long as the
reviews posted align with your observations/assessment of a particular
model, you've got a starting point there.  Maybe compile a list of direct
links for models you often see customers trying, so your CSRs can
copy/paste them without research.

Unfortunately, I'm not aware of a repository like you're describing with
your request, though.

Dan

On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 10:38 PM, Lorell Hathcock 
wrote:

> Josh:
>
> That's a good troubleshooting technique when the customer is cooperative
> and technically competent.
>
> I am looking for a third party list to which I may point that rates
> all/most routers on the market.  This list would not have my input on it at
> all.  If a router from the list winds up being bad, it is not my fault
> because it is third party.
>
> Such a list would help shift the conversation from blaming us at the ISP
> by default to casting doubt on the CPE device where the blame now rightly
> resides.
>
> I've checked the primary search engine for such a thing a list.  I get a
> lot of ads for broadband routers.  A search on dslreports.com yields
> nothing useful.  pcmag.com wants to tell me about $150-$300 routers new
> to the market in 2015.
>
> I just need a comprehensive list of routers with ratings.  A couple of
> user reviews about routers going bad would also be nice!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Lorell Hathcock
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Dec 23, 2015, at 8:52 PM, Josh Luthman 
> wrote:
> >
> > Have the customer bypass the router.  Why suggest another router that
> may have problems in the future that you ended up getting blamed for?
> >
> >
> > Josh Luthman
> > Office: 937-552-2340
> > Direct: 937-552-2343
> > 1100 Wayne St
> > Suite 1337
> > Troy, OH 45373
> >
> >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 9:49 PM, Lorell Hathcock 
> wrote:
> >> All:
> >>
> >> Not all consumer grade customer premises equipment is created equally.
> But end customers sure think it is.  I have retirement aged customers
> buying the crappiest routers and then blaming my cable network for all
> their connection woes.  The real problem is that there were plenty of
> problems on the cable network to deal with, so it was impossible to tell
> between a problem that a customer was having with their CPE versus a real
> problem in my network.
> >>
> >> Much of that has been cleared up on my side now, but customers were
> used to blaming us for everything so that they don't even consider that
> their equipment could be to blame.
> >>
> >> I want to be able to point out a third party list of all (most)
> broadband routers that rates them by performance.  Or that rates them by
> crappiness that I can send them to so they can look up their own router and
> determine if other users have had problems with that router and what can be
> done to fix it.
> >>
> >> So far my search has been in vain.
> >>
> >> Any thoughts?
> >>
> >> Thanks in advance.
> >>
> >> Lorell Hathcock
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPad
> >
>

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Lorell Hathcock]

Josh:

That's a good troubleshooting technique when the customer is cooperative and 
technically competent.

I am looking for a third party list to which I may point that rates all/most 
routers on the market.  This list would not have my input on it at all.  If a 
router from the list winds up being bad, it is not my fault because it is third 
party.  

Such a list would help shift the conversation from blaming us at the ISP by 
default to casting doubt on the CPE device where the blame now rightly resides.

I've checked the primary search engine for such a thing a list.  I get a lot of 
ads for broadband routers.  A search on dslreports.com yields nothing useful.  
pcmag.com wants to tell me about $150-$300 routers new to the market in 2015.  

I just need a comprehensive list of routers with ratings.  A couple of user 
reviews about routers going bad would also be nice!

Thanks,

Lorell Hathcock



Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 23, 2015, at 8:52 PM, Josh Luthman  wrote:
> 
> Have the customer bypass the router.  Why suggest another router that may 
> have problems in the future that you ended up getting blamed for?
> 
> 
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
> 
>> On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 9:49 PM, Lorell Hathcock  wrote:
>> All:
>> 
>> Not all consumer grade customer premises equipment is created equally.  But 
>> end customers sure think it is.  I have retirement aged customers buying the 
>> crappiest routers and then blaming my cable network for all their connection 
>> woes.  The real problem is that there were plenty of problems on the cable 
>> network to deal with, so it was impossible to tell between a problem that a 
>> customer was having with their CPE versus a real problem in my network.
>> 
>> Much of that has been cleared up on my side now, but customers were used to 
>> blaming us for everything so that they don't even consider that their 
>> equipment could be to blame.
>> 
>> I want to be able to point out a third party list of all (most) broadband 
>> routers that rates them by performance.  Or that rates them by crappiness 
>> that I can send them to so they can look up their own router and determine 
>> if other users have had problems with that router and what can be done to 
>> fix it.
>> 
>> So far my search has been in vain.
>> 
>> Any thoughts?
>> 
>> Thanks in advance.
>> 
>> Lorell Hathcock
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
> 

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Joly MacFie]

​Paywalled, but
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/wireless-routers/buying-guide.htm

​

On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 9:49 PM, Lorell Hathcock 
wrote:

> All:
>
> Not all consumer grade customer premises equipment is created equally.
> But end customers sure think it is.  I have retirement aged customers
> buying the crappiest routers and then blaming my cable network for all
> their connection woes.  The real problem is that there were plenty of
> problems on the cable network to deal with, so it was impossible to tell
> between a problem that a customer was having with their CPE versus a real
> problem in my network.
>
> Much of that has been cleared up on my side now, but customers were used
> to blaming us for everything so that they don't even consider that their
> equipment could be to blame.
>
> I want to be able to point out a third party list of all (most) broadband
> routers that rates them by performance.  Or that rates them by crappiness
> that I can send them to so they can look up their own router and determine
> if other users have had problems with that router and what can be done to
> fix it.
>
> So far my search has been in vain.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Lorell Hathcock
>
> Sent from my iPad




-- 
---
Joly MacFie  218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
--
-

Re: Broadband Router Comparisons

[Seth Mos]

Smallnetbuilder.com has quite a few models of routers tested, which is decent. 
I've bugged them about ipv6 testing before but not too much progress there. 
Powerconsumption is not listed either, which can be as expensive as the router 
itself at 21 cents per kWh.

Regards,
Seth


 Oorspronkelijk bericht 
Van: Lorell Hathcock  
Datum: 24-12-2015  03:49  (GMT+01:00) 
Aan: nanog@nanog.org 
Onderwerp: Broadband Router Comparisons 

All:

Not all consumer grade customer premises equipment is created equally.  But end 
customers sure think it is.  I have retirement aged customers buying the 
crappiest routers and then blaming my cable network for all their connection 
woes.  The real problem is that there were plenty of problems on the cable 
network to deal with, so it was impossible to tell between a problem that a 
customer was having with their CPE versus a real problem in my network.

Much of that has been cleared up on my side now, but customers were used to 
blaming us for everything so that they don't even consider that their equipment 
could be to blame.

I want to be able to point out a third party list of all (most) broadband 
routers that rates them by performance.  Or that rates them by crappiness that 
I can send them to so they can look up their own router and determine if other 
users have had problems with that router and what can be done to fix it.

So far my search has been in vain.

Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

Lorell Hathcock

Sent from my iPad