Re: mpls over microwave
Just in case anyone looks this thread up in the future... We're likely going with Aviat and their DAC GE card EXD-181-002 cards. From the company: Yes the Ethernet card does support jumbo frame size, IPV6 and MPLS EXP bits, QOS and VLANs with 802.1q tagging. scott
Re: mpls over microwave
because I have a partial implementation of MPLS routers. Whether the routers support MPLS or not, the routing on an OSPF level doesn't depend on MPLS being enabled. Eventually everything will be MPLS-capable. The MPLS network is not multiple-path. The OSPF network is. On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 12:20 AM, Mark Tinka mark.ti...@seacom.mu wrote: On 6/Feb/15 00:31, Eric Louie wrote: I work for a fixed wireless provider, and our mpls-capable backhauls are all running mpls with 9200 MTU with no problem. The only weirdness I encounter is if I have multiple equal-cost routes to the same location, one over MPLS and one not, end up having ping/unreachable issues from my monitoring equipment. The solution has been to cost one path (the MPLS) lower than the other. The only other problem I had was with radio's that didn't support larger 9000+ byte MTU packets - we've phased that radio out for now. if you run MPLS with 1500 byte MTU, you'll have issues with 1500 byte packets with the DF-bit set. That was a nasty discovery in the production network, your mileage will not vary with that problem. I'm curious why you'd have multiple paths in your network (equal-cost to boot) where some support and others don't. Mark.
Re: mpls over microwave
On 6/Feb/15 00:31, Eric Louie wrote: I work for a fixed wireless provider, and our mpls-capable backhauls are all running mpls with 9200 MTU with no problem. The only weirdness I encounter is if I have multiple equal-cost routes to the same location, one over MPLS and one not, end up having ping/unreachable issues from my monitoring equipment. The solution has been to cost one path (the MPLS) lower than the other. The only other problem I had was with radio's that didn't support larger 9000+ byte MTU packets - we've phased that radio out for now. if you run MPLS with 1500 byte MTU, you'll have issues with 1500 byte packets with the DF-bit set. That was a nasty discovery in the production network, your mileage will not vary with that problem. I'm curious why you'd have multiple paths in your network (equal-cost to boot) where some support and others don't. Mark.
Re: mpls over microwave
One more add: Properly engineered, fixed wireless links can have better-than-wireline availability. Two jobs ago, we had customer links with zero dropped packets in 5 years, which is outstanding compared to most copper-based services. Properly engineered, however, is the key. Make sure whom-ever is building your links looks at vendor specs, builds a real link budget (including losses from connectors, cable, grounding, etc) properly weather seals everything, and try to get at least a a 20db fade margin if you can. If the things I just mentioned are confusing to your RF guy, you might want to get outside help. On 2/5/15, 3:17 PM, Scott Weeks sur...@mauigateway.com wrote: Had to run off to a meeting. Back now. This is one thing I was worried about. I'm not doing the radio part. Someone else is. I didn't know if folks do pure Ethernet or if it's an IP hand off. If it's an IP addressed hand off, I have to come out of MPLS, cross the link, then go back into MPLS. Thanks for the pointers on packet size. I will be sure to check into that. Scott
RE: mpls over microwave
-Original Message- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Scott Weeks Thanks everyone, I feel a lot more confident on this project after this discussion. I will be working with a comm engineer who'll be doing the various radio links. I just need to be sure he can make the best decision as we're moving from ATM to MPLS and he doesn't understand the networking part and I only understand the basics of microwave links. --- snasl...@medline.com wrote: From: Naslund, Steve snasl...@medline.com I would try to recommend finding a microwave guy that knows IP. Quite a lot of them do now since most of their installs are IP traffic backhaul. --- There is no choice in this situation. I get what I get and make it work. And, it is hard to find technical folks *way* out in the country on a dot in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. :-) scott
RE: mpls over microwave
-Original Message- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Scott Weeks Sent: Saturday, 7 February 2015 5:26 AM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: mpls over microwave There is no choice in this situation. I get what I get and make it work. And, it is hard to find technical folks *way* out in the country on a dot in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. :-) scott Hi Scott, Just a few tips from someone who did some of the RF engineering and ran a mpls network in a previous job :- Watch your MTUs. Also, watch out for flow control - talk to your radio vendor to see if you will need it enabled. Good luck :) -Tim
RE: mpls over microwave
I would try to recommend finding a microwave guy that knows IP. Quite a lot of them do now since most of their installs are IP traffic backhaul. Steven Naslund Chicago IL -Original Message- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Scott Weeks Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2015 11:42 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: mpls over microwave Thanks everyone, I feel a lot more confident on this project after this discussion. I will be working with a comm engineer who'll be doing the various radio links. I just need to be sure he can make the best decision as we're moving from ATM to MPLS and he doesn't understand the networking part and I only understand the basics of microwave links. scott
RE: mpls over microwave
Hey, We run few mpls links ( 7600s/3600s on the mpls side mostly ) over Ceragon wireless gear. Nothing too fancy, I just treat them as switches ( or even just cables for some boxes, not doing mac learning at all ). No issues whatsoever on the networking side. My thoughts and words are my own. Kind Regards, Spyros -Original Message- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Scott Weeks Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2015 11:55 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: mpls over microwave Anyone doing MPLS over microwave radios? Please share your experiences on list or off. scott This e-mail and any attachment(s) contained within are confidential and are intended only for the use of the individual to whom they are addressed. The information contained in this communication may be privileged, or exempt from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender and delete the communication without retaining any copies. Rolaware Hellas SA is not responsible for, nor endorses, any opinion, recommendation, conclusion, solicitation, offer or agreement or any information contained in this communication.
RE: mpls over microwave
We run MPLS over wireless links of all kinds quite extensively. The key is to make sure that packet loss is at a minimum (duh), and to ensure that your wireless links have a large enough MTU to pass the additional bytes for each label. Other than that, we treat the wireless links as wires. -- Tim Huffman Staff Manager - Engineering | Windstream 999 Oak Creek Dr | Lombard, IL 60148 timothy.huff...@windstream.com | windstreambusiness.com o: 630.590.6012 | m: 630.340.1925 | f: 630.986.2496 -Original Message- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Spyros Kakaroukas Sent: Friday, February 06, 2015 5:46 AM To: 'sur...@mauigateway.com'; nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: mpls over microwave Hey, We run few mpls links ( 7600s/3600s on the mpls side mostly ) over Ceragon wireless gear. Nothing too fancy, I just treat them as switches ( or even just cables for some boxes, not doing mac learning at all ). No issues whatsoever on the networking side. My thoughts and words are my own. Kind Regards, Spyros -Original Message- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Scott Weeks Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2015 11:55 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: mpls over microwave Anyone doing MPLS over microwave radios? Please share your experiences on list or off. scott This e-mail and any attachment(s) contained within are confidential and are intended only for the use of the individual to whom they are addressed. The information contained in this communication may be privileged, or exempt from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender and delete the communication without retaining any copies. Rolaware Hellas SA is not responsible for, nor endorses, any opinion, recommendation, conclusion, solicitation, offer or agreement or any information contained in this communication. -- This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message and any attachments.
Re: mpls over microwave
Thanks everyone, I feel a lot more confident on this project after this discussion. I will be working with a comm engineer who'll be doing the various radio links. I just need to be sure he can make the best decision as we're moving from ATM to MPLS and he doesn't understand the networking part and I only understand the basics of microwave links. scott
RE: mpls over microwave
Aviat Networks has recently released a microwave router with MPLS features, it's basically a router inside the microwave indoor unit. What we've found what hurts with anything over microwave is when you're running n+n links over long haul and the RF modulation steps down on one of those links and decreases your bandwidth, the Aviat solution is apparently meant to solve this with the RF cards talking directly to the on-board router and giving your MPLS nodes a kick to shift traffic in the right direction. -Daniel -Original Message- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Naslund, Steve Sent: Friday, 6 February 2015 10:39 AM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: mpls over microwave We run Dragonwave systems and have no issues at all. MPLS in itself doesn't make a difference since the gear is a straight Ethernet link. Just make sure your gear handles your frame sizes and tagging and you should be good. As long as your radio link is engineered right you should have high reliability. The key is having enough margin to maintain links during fades. So for example our link runs at -34 dbm and our receivers are good down to about -65 dbm at this rate. That gives us a roughly 35 dbm margin for degradation before the modems will change modulation a to a lower speed. Here in chicago we have seen maybe a total of an hour of weather related fade in a 10 years period on a 20 mile link running 600 Mbps. They are very popular for low latency since they actually have less latency than fiber. The high frequency traders pay big bucks to get on the microwaves between markets because of that trait. Microwaves through air are faster than photons in a fiber cable. Steven Naslund Chicago IL Sent from my iPhone On Feb 5, 2015, at 4:03 PM, Mike Hammett na...@ics-il.net wrote: Shouldn't really be any different as long as your gear supports the appropriate MTUs. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Scott Weeks sur...@mauigateway.com To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Thursday, February 5, 2015 3:55:04 PM Subject: mpls over microwave Anyone doing MPLS over microwave radios? Please share your experiences on list or off. scott
Re: mpls over microwave
I work for a fixed wireless provider, and our mpls-capable backhauls are all running mpls with 9200 MTU with no problem. The only weirdness I encounter is if I have multiple equal-cost routes to the same location, one over MPLS and one not, end up having ping/unreachable issues from my monitoring equipment. The solution has been to cost one path (the MPLS) lower than the other. The only other problem I had was with radio's that didn't support larger 9000+ byte MTU packets - we've phased that radio out for now. if you run MPLS with 1500 byte MTU, you'll have issues with 1500 byte packets with the DF-bit set. That was a nasty discovery in the production network, your mileage will not vary with that problem. eric at techintegrity dot com 619-335-8148 voice text www.techintegrity.com ericlouie on Twitter On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Scott Weeks sur...@mauigateway.com wrote: Anyone doing MPLS over microwave radios? Please share your experiences on list or off. scott
Re: mpls over microwave
We are. What would you like to know? On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 3:55 PM, Scott Weeks sur...@mauigateway.com wrote: Anyone doing MPLS over microwave radios? Please share your experiences on list or off. scott -- Adair Winter VP, Network Operations / Owner Amarillo Wireless | 806.316.5071 C: 806.231.7180 http://www.amarillowireless.net
Re: mpls over microwave
Shouldn't really be any different as long as your gear supports the appropriate MTUs. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Scott Weeks sur...@mauigateway.com To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Thursday, February 5, 2015 3:55:04 PM Subject: mpls over microwave Anyone doing MPLS over microwave radios? Please share your experiences on list or off. scott
Re: mpls over microwave
On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 3:55 PM, Scott Weeks sur...@mauigateway.com wrote: Anyone doing MPLS over microwave radios? Please share your experiences on list or off. --- ada...@amarillowireless.net wrote: From: Adair Winter ada...@amarillowireless.net We are. What would you like to know? - What kind of radios? What kind of hand off? What kind of router does the radio connect to? Any gotchas I should watch out for? scott
RE: mpls over microwave
Not doing anymore, but I have in a previous life. It works. What's more important is how you engineered your radios and what you're using... Best regards, Christian -Original Message- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Scott Weeks Sent: Thursday, February 5, 2015 1:55 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: mpls over microwave Anyone doing MPLS over microwave radios? Please share your experiences on list or off. scott
RE: mpls over microwave
I have been running MPLS over TDM and Ethernet microwave for about 8 years and the only issues are with microwave fade. Nathan Sipes Principal Network Architect Tel: 713-369-9866 FAX: 303-763-3510 Kinder Morgan 1001 Louisiana St KMB 548 Houston, TX 77002 nathan_si...@kindermorgan.com -Original Message- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Thursday, February 5, 2015 3:58 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: mpls over microwave Shouldn't really be any different as long as your gear supports the appropriate MTUs. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Scott Weeks sur...@mauigateway.com To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Thursday, February 5, 2015 3:55:04 PM Subject: mpls over microwave Anyone doing MPLS over microwave radios? Please share your experiences on list or off. scott
Re: mpls over microwave
Done it, and it works well. Used Motorola radios, and the key is the radio and building that part of the infrastructure right. The MPLS is just another IP packet to the wireless. Always used Ethernet handoffs on the radios to keep things simple. Make sure you have good line of site, have ample fade or lack of, and you take vegetation growth in to consideration. Also make sure you buy stuff that handles jumbo frames and enable that, so that you don't have issues with fragmentation. On Feb 5, 2015, at 3:55 PM, Scott Weeks sur...@mauigateway.com wrote: Anyone doing MPLS over microwave radios? Please share your experiences on list or off. scott
Re: mpls over microwave
--- davidbass...@gmail.com wrote: Always used Ethernet handoffs on the radios to keep things simple. - Had to run off to a meeting. Back now. This is one thing I was worried about. I'm not doing the radio part. Someone else is. I didn't know if folks do pure Ethernet or if it's an IP hand off. If it's an IP addressed hand off, I have to come out of MPLS, cross the link, then go back into MPLS. Thanks for the pointers on packet size. I will be sure to check into that. scott
Re: mpls over microwave
We run Dragonwave systems and have no issues at all. MPLS in itself doesn't make a difference since the gear is a straight Ethernet link. Just make sure your gear handles your frame sizes and tagging and you should be good. As long as your radio link is engineered right you should have high reliability. The key is having enough margin to maintain links during fades. So for example our link runs at -34 dbm and our receivers are good down to about -65 dbm at this rate. That gives us a roughly 35 dbm margin for degradation before the modems will change modulation a to a lower speed. Here in chicago we have seen maybe a total of an hour of weather related fade in a 10 years period on a 20 mile link running 600 Mbps. They are very popular for low latency since they actually have less latency than fiber. The high frequency traders pay big bucks to get on the microwaves between markets because of that trait. Microwaves through air are faster than photons in a fiber cable. Steven Naslund Chicago IL Sent from my iPhone On Feb 5, 2015, at 4:03 PM, Mike Hammett na...@ics-il.net wrote: Shouldn't really be any different as long as your gear supports the appropriate MTUs. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Scott Weeks sur...@mauigateway.com To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Thursday, February 5, 2015 3:55:04 PM Subject: mpls over microwave Anyone doing MPLS over microwave radios? Please share your experiences on list or off. scott
