Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others

[Brock Tice]

On 12/27/2017 04:11 PM, Jima wrote:
> On 2017-12-27 15:50, William Herrin wrote:
>> Net 196/8 is part of the swamp. Just speculating, but perhaps the
>> original registration of 196.53.96.0/22 
>> pre-dated the reassignment of 196/8 to AfriNIC?
> 
> Maybe? This snippet from WHOIS kind of nags at me, though:
> 
> inetnum:    196.52.0.0 - 196.55.255.255
> netname:    LogicWeb-Inc
> descr:  LogicWeb Inc.
> descr:  3003 Woodbridge Ave
> descr:  Edison, NJ 08837
> country:    ZA
> 
> Why South Africa if it's a legacy block? It looks like that stems from
> delegated-afrinic-extended, though:
> 
> afrinic|ZA|ipv4|196.52.0.0|262144|19951009|allocated|F36E02F6

We are leasing a /24 from that block as well, it's caused us similar
issues but they are mostly resolved now.

Luckily we've now deployed our first ipv6 customers with 464xlat and
it's working well, so I hope to be able to stop leasing that subnet in 2018.

It's hard for small ISPs that can't afford to buy IPv4 blocks, now that
ARIN is not handing them out. We're lucky we got a /23, if we'd started
a few years later we'd have nothing.

--Brock

Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others

[Brett A Mansfield]

I had some of that subnet from logicweb. Once I realized it was Afrinic I 
switched. Now I have the same issue with another subnet from ARIN. 
104.153.151.0/24 is all blocked still and I cannot get anyone from any of the 
companies to respond or unblock them.

Thank you,
Brett A Mansfield

> On Dec 27, 2017, at 4:06 PM, Mark Andrews  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 28 Dec 2017, at 9:38 am, Jima  wrote:
>> 
>> On 2017-12-27 14:10, Jared Mauch wrote:
 On Dec 27, 2017, at 3:50 PM, Grant Taylor via NANOG  
 wrote:
 Doesn't Hulu (et al) have an obligation to provide service to their paying 
 customers?
 
 Does this obligation extend to providing service independent of the 
 carrier that paying customers uses?
 
 Or if Hulu choose to exclude known problem carriers (i.e. VPN providers) 
 don't they have an obligation to confirm that their exclusions are 
 accurate?  Further, to correct problems if their data is shown to be 
 inaccurate?
>>> I have a suspicion that these folks acquired IP space that was previously 
>>> marked as part of a VPN provider, or Hulu is detecting it wrongly as VPN 
>>> provider IP space.
>> 
>> I was sitting on this, but what the heck.
>> 
>> I personally am curious as to what bug and/or feature allowed a random WISP 
>> in Utah (or the parent-ish ISP in New Jersey) to have IP space allocated 
>> from AfriNIC.
>> 
>> One might consider Hulu et al not so at-fault with that fact in 
>> consideration.
>> 
>> - Jima
> 
> If you need IPv4 address space you get it where you can.  There are lots of 
> addresses used outside of the original RIR service regions.  This will occur 
> more and more often.
> 
> What it does require is the State AG to come into bat for the customer to 
> make HULU correct their business practices as that are obviously broken. You 
> should be able to buy you internet service from anyone in the state and it 
> should work equally well subject to bandwidth limitations. This is a consumer 
> rights issue and it needs to be driven that way.
> 
> inetnum:196.53.96.0 - 196.53.99.255
> netname:LogicWeb
> descr:  Wi-Fiber, Inc.
> descr:  775 S Main St.
> descr:  Logan, UT 84321
> country:US
> admin-c:CA12-AFRINIC
> tech-c: CA12-AFRINIC
> status: ASSIGNED PA
> mnt-by: LOGICWEB-MNT
> source: AFRINIC # Filtered
> parent: 196.52.0.0 - 196.55.255.255
> 
> person: Chad Abizeid
> address:LogicWeb Inc.
> address:4509 Steeplechase Dr.
> address:Easton, PA 18040
> address:USA
> phone:  +1 866 611 1556
> org:ORG-LWI1-AFRINIC
> nic-hdl:CA12-AFRINIC
> mnt-by: LOGICWEB-MNT
> source: AFRINIC # Filtered
> -- 
> Mark Andrews, ISC
> 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
> PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742  INTERNET: ma...@isc.org
> 

Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others

[Jima]

On 2017-12-27 15:50, William Herrin wrote:
Net 196/8 is part of the swamp. Just speculating, but perhaps the 
original registration of 196.53.96.0/22  
pre-dated the reassignment of 196/8 to AfriNIC?


Maybe? This snippet from WHOIS kind of nags at me, though:

inetnum:196.52.0.0 - 196.55.255.255
netname:LogicWeb-Inc
descr:  LogicWeb Inc.
descr:  3003 Woodbridge Ave
descr:  Edison, NJ 08837
country:ZA

Why South Africa if it's a legacy block? It looks like that stems from 
delegated-afrinic-extended, though:


afrinic|ZA|ipv4|196.52.0.0|262144|19951009|allocated|F36E02F6

To your point, there are 42 entries dated 1995 in 196/8 -- 37 of them 
marked as ZA -- so maybe you're right that it's a relic of a bygone era. 
That relic might explain the uphill battle the OP has experienced, 
though -- Hulu (et al) might be using the RIRs' own data to populate 
their ACLs.


And who can blame them? From my understanding, the video content owners 
often have restrictive requirements in their licensing agreements, which 
is also why Hulu can't just ask the users their locations (per Laszlo's 
email). Weird corner cases abound, but it sounds like someone dropped 
the ball on getting this corrected. Tsk.


- Jima

Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others

[Mark Andrews]

> On 28 Dec 2017, at 9:38 am, Jima  wrote:
> 
> On 2017-12-27 14:10, Jared Mauch wrote:
>> On Dec 27, 2017, at 3:50 PM, Grant Taylor via NANOG  wrote:
>>> Doesn't Hulu (et al) have an obligation to provide service to their paying 
>>> customers?
>>> 
>>> Does this obligation extend to providing service independent of the carrier 
>>> that paying customers uses?
>>> 
>>> Or if Hulu choose to exclude known problem carriers (i.e. VPN providers) 
>>> don't they have an obligation to confirm that their exclusions are 
>>> accurate?  Further, to correct problems if their data is shown to be 
>>> inaccurate?
>> I have a suspicion that these folks acquired IP space that was previously 
>> marked as part of a VPN provider, or Hulu is detecting it wrongly as VPN 
>> provider IP space.
> 
> I was sitting on this, but what the heck.
> 
> I personally am curious as to what bug and/or feature allowed a random WISP 
> in Utah (or the parent-ish ISP in New Jersey) to have IP space allocated from 
> AfriNIC.
> 
> One might consider Hulu et al not so at-fault with that fact in consideration.
> 
> - Jima

If you need IPv4 address space you get it where you can.  There are lots of 
addresses used outside of the original RIR service regions.  This will occur 
more and more often.

What it does require is the State AG to come into bat for the customer to make 
HULU correct their business practices as that are obviously broken. You should 
be able to buy you internet service from anyone in the state and it should work 
equally well subject to bandwidth limitations. This is a consumer rights issue 
and it needs to be driven that way.

inetnum:196.53.96.0 - 196.53.99.255
netname:LogicWeb
descr:  Wi-Fiber, Inc.
descr:  775 S Main St.
descr:  Logan, UT 84321
country:US
admin-c:CA12-AFRINIC
tech-c: CA12-AFRINIC
status: ASSIGNED PA
mnt-by: LOGICWEB-MNT
source: AFRINIC # Filtered
parent: 196.52.0.0 - 196.55.255.255

person: Chad Abizeid
address:LogicWeb Inc.
address:4509 Steeplechase Dr.
address:Easton, PA 18040
address:USA
phone:  +1 866 611 1556
org:ORG-LWI1-AFRINIC
nic-hdl:CA12-AFRINIC
mnt-by: LOGICWEB-MNT
source: AFRINIC # Filtered
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742  INTERNET: ma...@isc.org

Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others

[Laszlo Hanyecz]

On 2017-12-27 22:38, Jima wrote:

On 2017-12-27 14:10, Jared Mauch wrote:
On Dec 27, 2017, at 3:50 PM, Grant Taylor via NANOG  
wrote:
Doesn't Hulu (et al) have an obligation to provide service to their 
paying customers?


Does this obligation extend to providing service independent of the 
carrier that paying customers uses?


Or if Hulu choose to exclude known problem carriers (i.e. VPN 
providers) don't they have an obligation to confirm that their 
exclusions are accurate?  Further, to correct problems if their data 
is shown to be inaccurate?


I have a suspicion that these folks acquired IP space that was 
previously marked as part of a VPN provider, or Hulu is detecting it 
wrongly as VPN provider IP space.


I was sitting on this, but what the heck.

I personally am curious as to what bug and/or feature allowed a random 
WISP in Utah (or the parent-ish ISP in New Jersey) to have IP space 
allocated from AfriNIC.


One might consider Hulu et al not so at-fault with that fact in 
consideration.


- Jima


Addresses aren't an identity nor are they tied to a physical location, 
so this is pretty irrelevant.  What Hulu should be doing is asking the 
user where they're located, instead of trying to tell them.  This thread 
happens here a couple times a week and the frequency of it will increase 
as addresses are recycled.  Clearly there is a lot of collateral damage 
from using GeoIP, but it mostly works on the big national ISPs so they 
still make money.  The WISPs and other small ISPs are an acceptable 
amount of loss, I guess.  The problem is that this is Hulu's fault but 
the pain is felt by everyone else except them, so they have no reason to 
want to stop doing this.


-Laszlo

Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others

[William Herrin]

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Jima  wrote:

> On 2017-12-27 14:10, Jared Mauch wrote:
>
>> On Dec 27, 2017, at 3:50 PM, Grant Taylor via NANOG 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Doesn't Hulu (et al) have an obligation to provide service to their
>>> paying customers?
>>>
>>> Does this obligation extend to providing service independent of the
>>> carrier that paying customers uses?
>>>
>>> Or if Hulu choose to exclude known problem carriers (i.e. VPN providers)
>>> don't they have an obligation to confirm that their exclusions are
>>> accurate?  Further, to correct problems if their data is shown to be
>>> inaccurate?
>>>
>>
>> I have a suspicion that these folks acquired IP space that was previously
>> marked as part of a VPN provider, or Hulu is detecting it wrongly as VPN
>> provider IP space.
>>
>
> I was sitting on this, but what the heck.
>
> I personally am curious as to what bug and/or feature allowed a random
> WISP in Utah (or the parent-ish ISP in New Jersey) to have IP space
> allocated from AfriNIC.
>
> One might consider Hulu et al not so at-fault with that fact in
> consideration.


Hi Jima,

Net 196/8 is part of the swamp. Just speculating, but perhaps the original
registration of 196.53.96.0/22 pre-dated the reassignment of 196/8 to
AfriNIC?

Regards,
Bill Herrin


-- 
William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
Dirtside Systems . Web: 

Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others

[Jima]

On 2017-12-27 14:10, Jared Mauch wrote:

On Dec 27, 2017, at 3:50 PM, Grant Taylor via NANOG  wrote:

Doesn't Hulu (et al) have an obligation to provide service to their paying 
customers?

Does this obligation extend to providing service independent of the carrier 
that paying customers uses?

Or if Hulu choose to exclude known problem carriers (i.e. VPN providers) don't 
they have an obligation to confirm that their exclusions are accurate?  
Further, to correct problems if their data is shown to be inaccurate?


I have a suspicion that these folks acquired IP space that was previously 
marked as part of a VPN provider, or Hulu is detecting it wrongly as VPN 
provider IP space.


I was sitting on this, but what the heck.

I personally am curious as to what bug and/or feature allowed a random 
WISP in Utah (or the parent-ish ISP in New Jersey) to have IP space 
allocated from AfriNIC.


One might consider Hulu et al not so at-fault with that fact in 
consideration.


- Jima

Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others

[William Herrin]

On Tue, Dec 26, 2017 at 2:41 PM, Michael Crapse  wrote:

> I would like to know, Is there any legal recourse we can take against such
> a company consistently ignoring whitelist requests?
>

Hi Michael,

There is not, however that does not mean a letter from your lawyer to their
lawyer would fail to bear fruit. Internally, queries from the legal team
tend to get a priority. Perhaps a polite letter to the effect that you have
exhausted your options outside of legal channels and would appreciate a
prompt response.

Hulu doesn't actually want to block legitimate customers, so all you really
need is for the right person at Hulu to receive a swift kick in the tail
from someone they can't ignore.

Regards,
Bill Herrin



-- 
William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
Dirtside Systems . Web: 

Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others

[Jared Mauch]

> On Dec 27, 2017, at 3:50 PM, Grant Taylor via NANOG  wrote:
> 
> set Devil's advocate mode = on

Polluted IP space concern = ON

> On 12/26/2017 04:24 PM, John Levine wrote:
>> Is there some reason you believe that Hulu has a legal duty to provide old 
>> TV shows to your users?
> 
> Doesn't Hulu (et al) have an obligation to provide service to their paying 
> customers?
> 
> Does this obligation extend to providing service independent of the carrier 
> that paying customers uses?
> 
> Or if Hulu choose to exclude known problem carriers (i.e. VPN providers) 
> don't they have an obligation to confirm that their exclusions are accurate?  
> Further, to correct problems if their data is shown to be inaccurate?

I have a suspicion that these folks acquired IP space that was previously 
marked as part of a VPN provider, or Hulu is detecting it wrongly as VPN 
provider IP space.

If you look at some of the blocks I’ve seen, they have some interesting 
history/registration that seems to appear that way.  I’ve pointed folks at Hulu 
at this thread and an encouraging them to follow-up.

If you acquired IP space from a broker, you should follow up with them about 
the geolocation issues, and you should know what it was used for in the past.

If you are using a CDN to serve content, make sure you can serve over v6 and 
can also do geolocation over IPv6.  Finding the IP space used to geolocate 
generally isn’t difficult.  I had previously found some of these myself.

>> There are laws about discriminating against protected classes like racial or 
>> religious minorities but I am fairly sure that "random subscribers of some 
>> ISP in Utah" is not such a class."
> 
> It's not a law, but it is a service agreement between Hulu and their 
> customers.

It’s also that Hulu is owned by content owners that can decide to be strict 
about their content rights.  I’m not a fan of geoblocking and vote with my 
wallet to not give Hulu money.  While I understand your customers may, the lack 
of a fix is also a market signal.

- Jared

Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others

[Grant Taylor via NANOG]

set Devil's advocate mode = on

On 12/26/2017 04:24 PM, John Levine wrote:
Is there some reason you believe that Hulu has a legal duty to provide 
old TV shows to your users?


Doesn't Hulu (et al) have an obligation to provide service to their 
paying customers?


Does this obligation extend to providing service independent of the 
carrier that paying customers uses?


Or if Hulu choose to exclude known problem carriers (i.e. VPN providers) 
don't they have an obligation to confirm that their exclusions are 
accurate?  Further, to correct problems if their data is shown to be 
inaccurate?


There are laws about discriminating against 
protected classes like racial or religious minorities but I am fairly 
sure that "random subscribers of some ISP in Utah" is not such a class."


It's not a law, but it is a service agreement between Hulu and their 
customers.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

RE: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others

[Keith Medcalf]

Title II is not particularly relevant.  It merely permits a claim of the form 
"Carriage must be provided without discrimination to everyone who pays the fee 
for carriage.  I have paid the fee for carriage, but I am suffering 
discrimination in the provision of carriage as prohibited by Title II parts 
such and so".

In other words, it merely provides a lazy way for lazy lawyers to make lazy 
claims without having to think about what they are doing.  Since they get 
another new yacht whether they win or lose, it does not really matter to most 
of them if they do a bang up job or a shoddy one.  In any case, it is a stupid 
claim.  You are not discriminating in carriage, even if Title II were still in 
force.  You are providing non-discriminatory carriage and some other third 
party is tortuously interfering with a contract.

In any case, the entire result would turn on what you do in defense.  If you 
are a schmuck then you simply move for summary judgement on the basis that you 
are providing carriage and that it is another party that is fracked up, and 
you, through the goodness of your kind heart, tried to solve the issue on 
behalf of the complainant, to no effect.  Then the complainant has to launch 
another lawsuit against the correct parties.  This could go on for quite a 
while before managing to hit the correct party -- more likely it would never 
get anywhere at all.

Alternatively, you could make the same defense and cross-claim against all the 
parties who should have been in the original action.

The originating claim needs to be brought against all the possible bad actors 
simultaneously and the claims plead properly.  This would require a lawyer that 
can think -- something very rare.  It would be somewhat expensive and delicate, 
but it would have certain success.

---
The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a 
lot about anticipated traffic volume.

>-Original Message-
>From: Michael Crapse [mailto:mich...@wi-fiber.io]
>Sent: Tuesday, 26 December, 2017 19:03
>To: Keith Medcalf
>Cc: nanog@nanog.org
>Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
>
>I was being playful with the whole "law" thing.
>I doubt the users would be able to sue me due to title 2 roll backs.
>"Net Neutrality" allows ISPs to block any service they deem fit,
>right? So the first step wouldn't even get past discovery to get to
>court. Anyhow, it would be sufficiently beneficial if we just had a
>single contact within hulu. It would be even better if hulu came into
>the 21st century and supported IPv6 like any other modern service.
>For others who need this resolved for hulu, these are the subnets I
>NATed/VPNed to get it working.
>8.28.124.0/23
>23.0.0.0/8
>
>184.84.0.0/14
>
>199.60.116.0/24
>199.127.192.0/22
>199.200.48.0/22
>208.91.156.0/22
>208.98.171.96/27
>
>
>Michael
>
>On 26 December 2017 at 18:54, Keith Medcalf <kmedc...@dessus.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>
>   No, because you have no cause of action known to law.  You are
>not a customer of Hulu and have no right of action.
>
>   However, your "users" could sue you for failing to provide
>proper service or perhaps otherwise cause you to suffer damages.
>
>   In the former case you could file a defense and cross-claim
>against Hulu claiming that it is their problem, and that not only are
>they responsible for the claims made against you, they are also
>liable for your costs and so on and so forth.
>
>   In the latter case where you suffer damages as a result of
>Hulu's actions (or inactions) resulting in damage to you, you could
>sue them on the basis of tortuous interference for their actions.
>
>   Of course, Hulu will simply claim that you are negligent and
>just in case file a third party claim against whomever is providing
>them with false information and thus tortuously interfering with
>their business.
>
>   Over the course of the following several years nothing will be
>done to correct the issue, your customers will abandon you and go
>elsewhere, and in the end no one will get anywhere except the lawyers
>who will now be able to afford to buy a few more yachts each.
>
>   ---
>   The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to
>Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
>
>
>
>   >-Original Message-
>       >From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org <mailto:nanog-
>boun...@nanog.org> ] On Behalf Of Michael
>   >Crapse
>   >Sent: Tuesday, 26 December, 2017 12:42
>   >To: Sam Norris
>   >Cc: NANOG list
>   >Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and
>others
>   >
>   >I would like to kno

Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others

[Mike Hammett]

"Net Neutrality" - where only one party in the flow of bits could *possibly* be 
negligent, malicious, etc. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

Midwest-IX 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Michael Crapse" <mich...@wi-fiber.io> 
To: "Keith Medcalf" <kmedc...@dessus.com> 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 8:03:27 PM 
Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others 

I was being playful with the whole "law" thing. 
I doubt the users would be able to sue me due to title 2 roll backs. "Net 
Neutrality" allows ISPs to block any service they deem fit, right? So the 
first step wouldn't even get past discovery to get to court. Anyhow, it 
would be sufficiently beneficial if we just had a single contact within 
hulu. It would be even better if hulu came into the 21st century and 
supported IPv6 like any other modern service. 
For others who need this resolved for hulu, these are the subnets I 
NATed/VPNed to get it working. 
8.28.124.0/23 
23.0.0.0/8 
184.84.0.0/14 
199.60.116.0/24 
199.127.192.0/22 
199.200.48.0/22 
208.91.156.0/22 
208.98.171.96/27 

Michael 

On 26 December 2017 at 18:54, Keith Medcalf <kmedc...@dessus.com> wrote: 

> 
> No, because you have no cause of action known to law. You are not a 
> customer of Hulu and have no right of action. 
> 
> However, your "users" could sue you for failing to provide proper service 
> or perhaps otherwise cause you to suffer damages. 
> 
> In the former case you could file a defense and cross-claim against Hulu 
> claiming that it is their problem, and that not only are they responsible 
> for the claims made against you, they are also liable for your costs and so 
> on and so forth. 
> 
> In the latter case where you suffer damages as a result of Hulu's actions 
> (or inactions) resulting in damage to you, you could sue them on the basis 
> of tortuous interference for their actions. 
> 
> Of course, Hulu will simply claim that you are negligent and just in case 
> file a third party claim against whomever is providing them with false 
> information and thus tortuously interfering with their business. 
> 
> Over the course of the following several years nothing will be done to 
> correct the issue, your customers will abandon you and go elsewhere, and in 
> the end no one will get anywhere except the lawyers who will now be able to 
> afford to buy a few more yachts each. 
> 
> --- 
> The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says 
> a lot about anticipated traffic volume. 
> 
> 
> >-Original Message- 
> >From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Michael 
> >Crapse 
> >Sent: Tuesday, 26 December, 2017 12:42 
> >To: Sam Norris 
> >Cc: NANOG list 
> >Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others 
> > 
> >I would like to know, Is there any legal recourse we can take against 
> >such 
> >a company consistently ignoring whitelist requests? 
> >Currently, the only way my customers can connect to hulu without 
> >getting a 
> >vpn error is by using a vpn. On my end, i have just started NATing 
> >all 
> >requests to HULU through the few good IPs that I have. 
> > 
> >On 26 December 2017 at 11:12, Sam Norris <s...@sandiegobroadband.com> 
> >wrote: 
> > 
> >> Anyone figure this out? I need to get our prefixes updated as well 
> >as 
> >> they are 
> >> detecting our customers in the wrong city. 
> >> 
> >> Sam 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> > -Original Message- 
> >> > From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of 
> >> > li...@silverlakeinternet.com 
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 1:28 PM 
> >> > To: Mike Hammett 
> >> > Cc: nanog@nanog.org 
> >> > Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others 
> >> > 
> >> > I could use a contact for all of these as well. I have been 
> >trying to 
> >> > get my subnet unblocked with all of these providers and have 
> >reached out 
> >> > in many ways to all of them over the past few months, but never 
> >get a 
> >> > response. 
> >> > 
> >> > Thank you, 
> >> > Brett A Mansfield 
> >> > 
> >> > On 2017-12-15 19:57, Mike Hammett wrote: 
> >> > > Bump for Hulu. 
> >> > > 
> >> > > 
> >> > > 
> >> > > 
> >> > > - 
> >> > > Mike

Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others

[Michael Crapse]

I was being playful with the whole "law" thing.
I doubt the users would be able to sue me due to title 2 roll backs. "Net
Neutrality" allows ISPs to block any service they deem fit, right? So the
first step wouldn't even get past discovery to get to court. Anyhow, it
would be sufficiently beneficial if we just had a single contact within
hulu. It would be even better if hulu came into the 21st century and
supported IPv6 like any other modern service.
For others who need this resolved for hulu, these are the subnets I
NATed/VPNed to get it working.
8.28.124.0/23
23.0.0.0/8
184.84.0.0/14
199.60.116.0/24
199.127.192.0/22
199.200.48.0/22
208.91.156.0/22
208.98.171.96/27

Michael

On 26 December 2017 at 18:54, Keith Medcalf <kmedc...@dessus.com> wrote:

>
> No, because you have no cause of action known to law.  You are not a
> customer of Hulu and have no right of action.
>
> However, your "users" could sue you for failing to provide proper service
> or perhaps otherwise cause you to suffer damages.
>
> In the former case you could file a defense and cross-claim against Hulu
> claiming that it is their problem, and that not only are they responsible
> for the claims made against you, they are also liable for your costs and so
> on and so forth.
>
> In the latter case where you suffer damages as a result of Hulu's actions
> (or inactions) resulting in damage to you, you could sue them on the basis
> of tortuous interference for their actions.
>
> Of course, Hulu will simply claim that you are negligent and just in case
> file a third party claim against whomever is providing them with false
> information and thus tortuously interfering with their business.
>
> Over the course of the following several years nothing will be done to
> correct the issue, your customers will abandon you and go elsewhere, and in
> the end no one will get anywhere except the lawyers who will now be able to
> afford to buy a few more yachts each.
>
> ---
> The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says
> a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
>
>
> >-Original Message-
> >From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> >Crapse
> >Sent: Tuesday, 26 December, 2017 12:42
> >To: Sam Norris
> >Cc: NANOG list
> >Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
> >
> >I would like to know, Is there any legal recourse we can take against
> >such
> >a company consistently ignoring whitelist requests?
> >Currently, the only way my customers can connect to hulu without
> >getting a
> >vpn error is by using a vpn. On my end, i have just started NATing
> >all
> >requests to HULU through the few good IPs that I have.
> >
> >On 26 December 2017 at 11:12, Sam Norris <s...@sandiegobroadband.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Anyone figure this out?  I need to get our prefixes updated as well
> >as
> >> they are
> >> detecting our customers in the wrong city.
> >>
> >> Sam
> >>
> >>
> >> > -Original Message-
> >> > From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of
> >> > li...@silverlakeinternet.com
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 1:28 PM
> >> > To: Mike Hammett
> >> > Cc: nanog@nanog.org
> >> > Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
> >> >
> >> > I could use a contact for all of these as well.  I have been
> >trying to
> >> > get my subnet unblocked with all of these providers and have
> >reached out
> >> > in many ways to all of them over the past few months, but never
> >get a
> >> > response.
> >> >
> >> > Thank you,
> >> > Brett A Mansfield
> >> >
> >> > On 2017-12-15 19:57, Mike Hammett wrote:
> >> > > Bump for Hulu.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > -
> >> > > Mike Hammett
> >> > > Intelligent Computing Solutions
> >> > >
> >> > > Midwest Internet Exchange
> >> > >
> >> > > The Brothers WISP
> >> > >
> >> > > - Original Message -
> >> > >
> >> > > From: "Michael Crapse" <mich...@wi-fiber.io>
> >> > > To: nanog@nanog.org
> >> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 3:38:20 PM
> >> > > Subject: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
> >> > >
> >> > > I am a local WISP. And my customers have trouble reaching Hulu,
> >Disney
> >> > > now,
> >> > > and previously netflix and amazon prime(both resolved).
> >> > > I have emailed, mailed, and called both HULU and Disney now to
> >get my
> >> > > 196.53.96.0/22 subnet unblacklisted as a VPN provider(no longer
> >so)
> >> > > from
> >> > > their services. They have replied saying it takes 3-5 days to
> >resolve
> >> > > the
> >> > > issue, that was several weeks ago. Can i get contact from those
> >two
> >> > > services that can help my customers reach their services, thank
> >you.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Thank you for the help.
> >> > > -Michael
> >>
> >>
>
>
>
>

RE: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others

[Keith Medcalf]

No, because you have no cause of action known to law.  You are not a customer 
of Hulu and have no right of action.

However, your "users" could sue you for failing to provide proper service or 
perhaps otherwise cause you to suffer damages.

In the former case you could file a defense and cross-claim against Hulu 
claiming that it is their problem, and that not only are they responsible for 
the claims made against you, they are also liable for your costs and so on and 
so forth.

In the latter case where you suffer damages as a result of Hulu's actions (or 
inactions) resulting in damage to you, you could sue them on the basis of 
tortuous interference for their actions.

Of course, Hulu will simply claim that you are negligent and just in case file 
a third party claim against whomever is providing them with false information 
and thus tortuously interfering with their business.

Over the course of the following several years nothing will be done to correct 
the issue, your customers will abandon you and go elsewhere, and in the end no 
one will get anywhere except the lawyers who will now be able to afford to buy 
a few more yachts each.

---
The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a 
lot about anticipated traffic volume.


>-Original Message-
>From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>Crapse
>Sent: Tuesday, 26 December, 2017 12:42
>To: Sam Norris
>Cc: NANOG list
>Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
>
>I would like to know, Is there any legal recourse we can take against
>such
>a company consistently ignoring whitelist requests?
>Currently, the only way my customers can connect to hulu without
>getting a
>vpn error is by using a vpn. On my end, i have just started NATing
>all
>requests to HULU through the few good IPs that I have.
>
>On 26 December 2017 at 11:12, Sam Norris <s...@sandiegobroadband.com>
>wrote:
>
>> Anyone figure this out?  I need to get our prefixes updated as well
>as
>> they are
>> detecting our customers in the wrong city.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>>
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of
>> > li...@silverlakeinternet.com
>> > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 1:28 PM
>> > To: Mike Hammett
>> > Cc: nanog@nanog.org
>> > Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
>> >
>> > I could use a contact for all of these as well.  I have been
>trying to
>> > get my subnet unblocked with all of these providers and have
>reached out
>> > in many ways to all of them over the past few months, but never
>get a
>> > response.
>> >
>> > Thank you,
>> > Brett A Mansfield
>> >
>> > On 2017-12-15 19:57, Mike Hammett wrote:
>> > > Bump for Hulu.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > -
>> > > Mike Hammett
>> > > Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> > >
>> > > Midwest Internet Exchange
>> > >
>> > > The Brothers WISP
>> > >
>> > > - Original Message -
>> > >
>> > > From: "Michael Crapse" <mich...@wi-fiber.io>
>> > > To: nanog@nanog.org
>> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 3:38:20 PM
>> > > Subject: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
>> > >
>> > > I am a local WISP. And my customers have trouble reaching Hulu,
>Disney
>> > > now,
>> > > and previously netflix and amazon prime(both resolved).
>> > > I have emailed, mailed, and called both HULU and Disney now to
>get my
>> > > 196.53.96.0/22 subnet unblacklisted as a VPN provider(no longer
>so)
>> > > from
>> > > their services. They have replied saying it takes 3-5 days to
>resolve
>> > > the
>> > > issue, that was several weeks ago. Can i get contact from those
>two
>> > > services that can help my customers reach their services, thank
>you.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Thank you for the help.
>> > > -Michael
>>
>>

Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others

[John Levine]

In article 

Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others

[Mark Andrews]

Talk to your lawyers.  They should be able to advise you if there is legal 
remedy or not and if so what the chances of success are and some estimate of 
the costs of pursuing action.

Mark 

-- 
Mark Andrews

> On 27 Dec 2017, at 06:41, Michael Crapse <mich...@wi-fiber.io> wrote:
> 
> I would like to know, Is there any legal recourse we can take against such
> a company consistently ignoring whitelist requests?
> Currently, the only way my customers can connect to hulu without getting a
> vpn error is by using a vpn. On my end, i have just started NATing all
> requests to HULU through the few good IPs that I have.
> 
>> On 26 December 2017 at 11:12, Sam Norris <s...@sandiegobroadband.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Anyone figure this out?  I need to get our prefixes updated as well as
>> they are
>> detecting our customers in the wrong city.
>> 
>> Sam
>> 
>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of
>>> li...@silverlakeinternet.com
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 1:28 PM
>>> To: Mike Hammett
>>> Cc: nanog@nanog.org
>>> Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
>>> 
>>> I could use a contact for all of these as well.  I have been trying to
>>> get my subnet unblocked with all of these providers and have reached out
>>> in many ways to all of them over the past few months, but never get a
>>> response.
>>> 
>>> Thank you,
>>> Brett A Mansfield
>>> 
>>>> On 2017-12-15 19:57, Mike Hammett wrote:
>>>> Bump for Hulu.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -
>>>> Mike Hammett
>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>>> 
>>>> Midwest Internet Exchange
>>>> 
>>>> The Brothers WISP
>>>> 
>>>> - Original Message -
>>>> 
>>>> From: "Michael Crapse" <mich...@wi-fiber.io>
>>>> To: nanog@nanog.org
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 3:38:20 PM
>>>> Subject: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
>>>> 
>>>> I am a local WISP. And my customers have trouble reaching Hulu, Disney
>>>> now,
>>>> and previously netflix and amazon prime(both resolved).
>>>> I have emailed, mailed, and called both HULU and Disney now to get my
>>>> 196.53.96.0/22 subnet unblacklisted as a VPN provider(no longer so)
>>>> from
>>>> their services. They have replied saying it takes 3-5 days to resolve
>>>> the
>>>> issue, that was several weeks ago. Can i get contact from those two
>>>> services that can help my customers reach their services, thank you.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you for the help.
>>>> -Michael
>> 
>> 

Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others

[Michael Crapse]

I would like to know, Is there any legal recourse we can take against such
a company consistently ignoring whitelist requests?
Currently, the only way my customers can connect to hulu without getting a
vpn error is by using a vpn. On my end, i have just started NATing all
requests to HULU through the few good IPs that I have.

On 26 December 2017 at 11:12, Sam Norris <s...@sandiegobroadband.com> wrote:

> Anyone figure this out?  I need to get our prefixes updated as well as
> they are
> detecting our customers in the wrong city.
>
> Sam
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of
> > li...@silverlakeinternet.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 1:28 PM
> > To: Mike Hammett
> > Cc: nanog@nanog.org
> > Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
> >
> > I could use a contact for all of these as well.  I have been trying to
> > get my subnet unblocked with all of these providers and have reached out
> > in many ways to all of them over the past few months, but never get a
> > response.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Brett A Mansfield
> >
> > On 2017-12-15 19:57, Mike Hammett wrote:
> > > Bump for Hulu.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -
> > > Mike Hammett
> > > Intelligent Computing Solutions
> > >
> > > Midwest Internet Exchange
> > >
> > > The Brothers WISP
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > >
> > > From: "Michael Crapse" <mich...@wi-fiber.io>
> > > To: nanog@nanog.org
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 3:38:20 PM
> > > Subject: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
> > >
> > > I am a local WISP. And my customers have trouble reaching Hulu, Disney
> > > now,
> > > and previously netflix and amazon prime(both resolved).
> > > I have emailed, mailed, and called both HULU and Disney now to get my
> > > 196.53.96.0/22 subnet unblacklisted as a VPN provider(no longer so)
> > > from
> > > their services. They have replied saying it takes 3-5 days to resolve
> > > the
> > > issue, that was several weeks ago. Can i get contact from those two
> > > services that can help my customers reach their services, thank you.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you for the help.
> > > -Michael
>
>

RE: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others

[Sam Norris]

Anyone figure this out?  I need to get our prefixes updated as well as they are
detecting our customers in the wrong city.

Sam


> -Original Message-
> From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of
> li...@silverlakeinternet.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 1:28 PM
> To: Mike Hammett
> Cc: nanog@nanog.org
> Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
> 
> I could use a contact for all of these as well.  I have been trying to
> get my subnet unblocked with all of these providers and have reached out
> in many ways to all of them over the past few months, but never get a
> response.
> 
> Thank you,
> Brett A Mansfield
> 
> On 2017-12-15 19:57, Mike Hammett wrote:
> > Bump for Hulu.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > Mike Hammett
> > Intelligent Computing Solutions
> >
> > Midwest Internet Exchange
> >
> > The Brothers WISP
> >
> > - Original Message -
> >
> > From: "Michael Crapse" <mich...@wi-fiber.io>
> > To: nanog@nanog.org
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 3:38:20 PM
> > Subject: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
> >
> > I am a local WISP. And my customers have trouble reaching Hulu, Disney
> > now,
> > and previously netflix and amazon prime(both resolved).
> > I have emailed, mailed, and called both HULU and Disney now to get my
> > 196.53.96.0/22 subnet unblacklisted as a VPN provider(no longer so)
> > from
> > their services. They have replied saying it takes 3-5 days to resolve
> > the
> > issue, that was several weeks ago. Can i get contact from those two
> > services that can help my customers reach their services, thank you.
> >
> >
> > Thank you for the help.
> > -Michael

Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others

[lists]

I could use a contact for all of these as well.  I have been trying to 
get my subnet unblocked with all of these providers and have reached out 
in many ways to all of them over the past few months, but never get a 
response.


Thank you,
Brett A Mansfield

On 2017-12-15 19:57, Mike Hammett wrote:

Bump for Hulu.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP

- Original Message -

From: "Michael Crapse" 
To: nanog@nanog.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 3:38:20 PM
Subject: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others

I am a local WISP. And my customers have trouble reaching Hulu, Disney 
now,

and previously netflix and amazon prime(both resolved).
I have emailed, mailed, and called both HULU and Disney now to get my
196.53.96.0/22 subnet unblacklisted as a VPN provider(no longer so) 
from
their services. They have replied saying it takes 3-5 days to resolve 
the

issue, that was several weeks ago. Can i get contact from those two
services that can help my customers reach their services, thank you.


Thank you for the help.
-Michael

Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others

[Mike Hammett]

Bump for Hulu. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Michael Crapse"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 3:38:20 PM 
Subject: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others 

I am a local WISP. And my customers have trouble reaching Hulu, Disney now, 
and previously netflix and amazon prime(both resolved). 
I have emailed, mailed, and called both HULU and Disney now to get my 
196.53.96.0/22 subnet unblacklisted as a VPN provider(no longer so) from 
their services. They have replied saying it takes 3-5 days to resolve the 
issue, that was several weeks ago. Can i get contact from those two 
services that can help my customers reach their services, thank you. 


Thank you for the help. 
-Michael