Re: Fiber Costs [Was: Re: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing]

[Leo Bicknell]

In a message written on Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 10:21:53AM -0500, Fletcher 
Kittredge wrote:
> Numbers for building fiber optic systems are out there if you do the
> research. Joining the FTTH Council is a good start. One thing to recognise
> is that the numbers vary widely based on what is being built and where it
> is being built. There are large regional, technology, and product
> variations. Verizon has economies of scale few can match.

That's actually why I find this interesting.  It's not so much the
raw price, as I'm sure there is plenty written on that in various
forums and anyone serious about putting fiber in the ground knows
what they are.  Rather it's the external factors that affect price.
I'm sure everyone on this list could guess labor prices and permitting
vary, but the anicdotal information about permitting, soil, working
with other utilities, and so on that drives much of the cost is
fascinating.

Perhaps I could have phrased better, I don't care so much that it's
$15/foot in Frostbite Falls, but I am very interested in why it is
$15/foot in Frostbite Falls.

-- 
Leo Bicknell - bickn...@ufp.org
PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/


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Re: Fiber Costs [Was: Re: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing]

[Jared Mauch]

> On Jan 10, 2017, at 10:21 AM, Fletcher Kittredge  wrote:
> 
> Numbers for building fiber optic systems are out there if you do the
> research. Joining the FTTH Council is a good start. One thing to recognise
> is that the numbers vary widely based on what is being built and where it
> is being built. There are large regional, technology, and product
> variations. Verizon has economies of scale few can match.
> 
> Having said that, some of the numbers listed are unrecognizably low.

Labor can vary quite widely based on project, distance and environment.  What 
is $5/foot in a rural location can be $150 or more in an urban environment.  
It’s not uncommon to see pricing around $12/foot before engineering and other 
permitting work. 

If you’re in an environment that has favorable permitting process and can work 
with an existing insured contractor, $5/foot is attainable.  You are still up 
against 600-800 feet per day in favorable soil, which can easily turn to 200 
should there be a rock or complex utility work involved.

I’ll say depending on your project, you can start with the big-dreamer 
communities out there, or you go the other way and talk to folks that are doing 
it on the ground in your local area.  I’ve talked to people about pole attach 
as well as underground.  You can see costs as low as 10k per mile on poles, but 
that’s the really low end.

All numbers I’ve mentioned are for Michigan in the communities around my home 
as well as outlying areas.  If you’re around my area and want to talk costs and 
the projects, a private e-mail is welcome.

If you’re in Maine, that granite rock is really tough, the hemlocks rot and 
fall more often than the birch, etc.  Those risks make the situation tougher, 
and the population north of Bangor/Orono really thins out, but at least the 
speed limit is higher on 95 now.  :-)

- Jared

Re: Fiber Costs [Was: Re: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing]

[Fletcher Kittredge]

Numbers for building fiber optic systems are out there if you do the
research. Joining the FTTH Council is a good start. One thing to recognise
is that the numbers vary widely based on what is being built and where it
is being built. There are large regional, technology, and product
variations. Verizon has economies of scale few can match.

Having said that, some of the numbers listed are unrecognizably low.



On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 8:32 AM, Leo Bicknell  wrote:

>
> I don't know about the rest of the list, but I find these numbers
> fascinating.  There's probably not that many people who are allowed
> to share them, but if more could I think that would be educational
> for a lot of folks.
>
> In a message written on Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 08:37:19AM -0500, Jared Mauch
> wrote:
> > I’ve been thinking of the same in my underserved area.  Labor is $5/foot
> here and despite friends and colleagues telling me to move, it seems I have
> a sub-60 month ROI (and sub-year for some areas I’ve modeled with modest
> uptake rates of 15-20% where the other options are fixed wireless, Cellular
> data or dial).
>
> In a message written on Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 01:50:48PM +, Luke
> Guillory wrote:
> > Our model is 15k a mile all in, this is  for aerial  not underground for
> our HFC/Coax builds. A partner of ours models their underground fiber
> builds at 30k a mile.
>
> In a message written on Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 09:08:51AM -0500, Shawn L
> wrote:
> > Depending on the area and conditions (rock, etc).  We're seeing
> >
> > $4 /foot Aerial
> > $5-$7 /foot direct bury
> > $10 - $14 /foot directional bore
>
> --
> Leo Bicknell - bickn...@ufp.org
> PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/
>



-- 
Fletcher Kittredge
GWI
207-602-1134
www.gwi.net

Fiber Costs [Was: Re: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing]

[Leo Bicknell]

I don't know about the rest of the list, but I find these numbers
fascinating.  There's probably not that many people who are allowed
to share them, but if more could I think that would be educational
for a lot of folks.

In a message written on Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 08:37:19AM -0500, Jared Mauch 
wrote:
> I’ve been thinking of the same in my underserved area.  Labor is $5/foot here 
> and despite friends and colleagues telling me to move, it seems I have a 
> sub-60 month ROI (and sub-year for some areas I’ve modeled with modest uptake 
> rates of 15-20% where the other options are fixed wireless, Cellular data or 
> dial).

In a message written on Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 01:50:48PM +, Luke Guillory 
wrote:
> Our model is 15k a mile all in, this is  for aerial  not underground for our 
> HFC/Coax builds. A partner of ours models their underground fiber builds at 
> 30k a mile.

In a message written on Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 09:08:51AM -0500, Shawn L wrote:
> Depending on the area and conditions (rock, etc).  We're seeing
>  
> $4 /foot Aerial
> $5-$7 /foot direct bury
> $10 - $14 /foot directional bore

-- 
Leo Bicknell - bickn...@ufp.org
PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/


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Re: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

[Leo Bicknell]

It is interesting to see the differences.  For instance to put my
unit in bridge mode I just logged into it, said bridge mode, and
rebooted it.  That method was actually documented in their business
class FAQ.

I'm sure there are great differences in plant and capabilities.
There's a lot of M history and a lot of historical reasons, good
and bad.

In a message written on Fri, Jan 06, 2017 at 11:55:56AM -0800, Owen DeLong 
wrote:
> They don’t offer double-play business pricing in my area and, in fact,
> refused to sell me business class TV service in a residential unit. When

On some of the issues like this I wonder if the reason is regulatory.
In the two areas I've checked there is double play business pricing.
In one of them they offered business class TV at residential, or
at least the rep tried to sell it to me.  Its the sort of thing
that just feels like a regulator issue to me.

-- 
Leo Bicknell - bickn...@ufp.org
PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/


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Re: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

[Robert Story]

On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 11:55:56 -0800 Owen wrote:
OD> > On Jan 6, 2017, at 08:21 , Leo Bicknell  wrote:
OD> > At a past address I had Comcast Business (cable modem) service at
OD> > a residential address, and then later downgraded it to Comcast
OD> > Residential service.
OD> > [...]
OD> > The differences I could see:
OD> >  - Cable Modem
OD> >- Residential: could rent a consumer grade or BYO (I did, a good one)
OD> >- Business: Comcast supplied and required their better-than-average,
OD> >modem.  It could be in bridge mode though.  
OD> - San Jose, I was able to use BYO. Had to escalate several levels and 
pull several teeth to get
OD> bridge mode on the Comcast unit while I had it.

I'm using BYO on business class in Atlanta. I thing that a static IP
requires that you use their modem. I'm happy with DHCP - my assigned IP
hasn't changed in years. And as you say, I can plug in multiple boxes and
each get's its own public IPv4 address.

OD> > Ultimately the reason to buy business class at a residential address
OD> > (and I think the Prosumer description is correct) is generally faster
OD> > repair times.

That's why I have it. Though if you BYOM, you'll likely have trouble
getting service as they'll blame it on your 'unspoorted' device (even
thought it's listed on supported devices page). I had to rent one of their
modems for about 3 months once while they struggled to find something in the
neighborhood with a flaky power supply that caused intermittent outages.


Robert

-- 
Senior Software Engineer @ Parsons


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Re: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

[Owen DeLong]

> On Jan 6, 2017, at 08:21 , Leo Bicknell  wrote:
> 
> In a message written on Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 04:51:26PM -0800, Paul B. Henson 
> wrote:
>> I'd call my business FIOS "prosumer" ;). Honestly, I'm not sure why
>> you'd get business FIOS over residential FIOS if you don't need static
>> IP addresses, at least if you're at an address where both are available.
> 
> I can't speak to Verizon, but I can speak to Comcast.
> 
> At a past address I had Comcast Business (cable modem) service at
> a residential address, and then later downgraded it to Comcast
> Residential service.
> 
> The similarities:
>  - Both used the exact same cable coming into the house.
>  - Both offered the same speeds.
>  - Both offered static IP's for an additional fee.
— Not available in San Jose on residential service. If you want static, 
must go business here.
>  - Both clearly used the same routers, backbone, peering, etc.
> 
> The differences I could see:
>  - Cable Modem
>- Residential: could rent a consumer grade or BYO (I did, a good one)
>- Business: Comcast supplied and required their better-than-average,
>modem.  It could be in bridge mode though.
- San Jose, I was able to use BYO. Had to escalate several levels and 
pull several teeth to get
bridge mode on the Comcast unit while I had it.
>  - Support
>- Residential: 0-30 minutes on hold, the one dispatch when I needed
>   a truck roll took ~24 hours.
>- Business: 0-2 minutes on hold, I had two dispatches one where the
>truck arrived within 30 minutes, the other in about 2
>hours.
>  - Cost (At the time)
>- Residential: $75/month.
>- Business Class: $90/month.
- San Jose, Residential and business both about $90/month. Difference 
is that Residential includes Television
in that price.
>  - Data Caps:
>- Residential: 250GB/month.
- San Jose, I just received a notice indicating that they were just now 
instituting a 500GB/month limit on my service.
Prior to that, no documented cap. I don’t think I’ve tried to 
move more than 1/2 a terabyte in any month, so I
don’t know if there was an undocumented cap or not.
>- Business: None (with two paragraphs of disclaimer)
> 

One other visible difference:
- Residential: One mac address only, 15 minutes to reset DHCP server if 
changing MAC address
- Business: Multiple mac addresses supported

> Differences I could not see/verify:
>  - Cable Modem Channel Selection
>- I'm told in some cases business class cable modems get different
>  DOCSYS channels which have less congestion than typical
>  residential channels.  This of course varies greatly market to
>  market, and is also dependent on the number of both resi and
>  business subs on the segment.
>  - Packet prioritization.
>- I'm told that business class packets are given somewhat higher
>  priority (QoS) in the network.  I could find no way to verify
>  this, and generally had no packet loss issues inside the Comcast
>  network with either service.
> 
> Ultimately the reason to buy business class at a residential address
> (and I think the Prosumer description is correct) is generally faster
> repair times.  On congested segments it may also result in slightly
> lesser packet loss.  Maybe, depending on how caps are done, it could be
> worth while if you move a lot of data.

In my case, I started residential and it was abysmal. There were so many
problems and multiple truck rolls did not resolve anything. Finally, I
resorted to business class in desperation (My choices here for any
bandwidth >1.5Mbps/384k are Comcast, Comcast, or Comcast). Within a few
days of installation, 3-4 truck-rolls later, I had about 3 months of free
service in credits and working service that was stable for years.

Later I downgraded back to residential and it seems that having gotten
the neighborhood equipment up to business class standards has resolved
the issues and things continue to be reliable.

> Obviously if these differences are worth the delta in price depends on
> your situation and the exact delta in your location.  At the time I had
> this I was working from home, so the extra $15/month insurance that I
> could do my job was money well spent.

The delta may be more variable than you describe as well. If you’re only
looking at internet, then it’s about $15 or maybe even $0 in some cases
(It was actually cheaper at one point to buy a la carte business class
internet than residential here). However, if you add TV, then the double-play
residential price is almost always such that your internet service price
a la carte is roughly equal to double-play price for both on residential.
They don’t offer double-play business pricing in my area and, in fact,
refused to sell me business class TV service in a residential unit. When
I was running 

Re: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

[Leo Bicknell]

In a message written on Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 04:51:26PM -0800, Paul B. Henson 
wrote:
> I'd call my business FIOS "prosumer" ;). Honestly, I'm not sure why
> you'd get business FIOS over residential FIOS if you don't need static
> IP addresses, at least if you're at an address where both are available.

I can't speak to Verizon, but I can speak to Comcast.

At a past address I had Comcast Business (cable modem) service at
a residential address, and then later downgraded it to Comcast
Residential service.

The similarities:
  - Both used the exact same cable coming into the house.
  - Both offered the same speeds.
  - Both offered static IP's for an additional fee.
  - Both clearly used the same routers, backbone, peering, etc.

The differences I could see:
  - Cable Modem
- Residential: could rent a consumer grade or BYO (I did, a good one)
- Business: Comcast supplied and required their better-than-average,
modem.  It could be in bridge mode though.
  - Support
- Residential: 0-30 minutes on hold, the one dispatch when I needed
   a truck roll took ~24 hours.
- Business: 0-2 minutes on hold, I had two dispatches one where the
truck arrived within 30 minutes, the other in about 2
hours.
  - Cost (At the time)
- Residential: $75/month.
- Business Class: $90/month.
  - Data Caps:
- Residential: 250GB/month.
- Business: None (with two paragraphs of disclaimer)

Differences I could not see/verify:
  - Cable Modem Channel Selection
- I'm told in some cases business class cable modems get different
  DOCSYS channels which have less congestion than typical
  residential channels.  This of course varies greatly market to
  market, and is also dependent on the number of both resi and
  business subs on the segment.
  - Packet prioritization.
- I'm told that business class packets are given somewhat higher
  priority (QoS) in the network.  I could find no way to verify
  this, and generally had no packet loss issues inside the Comcast
  network with either service.

Ultimately the reason to buy business class at a residential address
(and I think the Prosumer description is correct) is generally faster
repair times.  On congested segments it may also result in slightly
lesser packet loss.  Maybe, depending on how caps are done, it could be
worth while if you move a lot of data.

Obviously if these differences are worth the delta in price depends on
your situation and the exact delta in your location.  At the time I had
this I was working from home, so the extra $15/month insurance that I
could do my job was money well spent.

-- 
Leo Bicknell - bickn...@ufp.org
PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/


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Re: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

[Paul B. Henson]

On Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 05:16:43PM -0500, Christopher Morrow wrote:

> maybe now would be a good time to ask your vz rep about this 'feature'?

Hah. I asked Frontier right after the cutover and got the same Verizon smoke
"Currently in the planning stages with no firm timeline for deployment."

Re: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

[Paul B. Henson]

On Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 01:57:10PM -0800, Ray Van Dolson wrote:

> Have been evaluating going to more consumerish-grade circuits like this
> at remote locations, but this scenario is one that has kept me sticking
> with the more traditional (and more expensive) SLA-bound circuits.

I'd call my business FIOS "prosumer" ;). Honestly, I'm not sure why
you'd get business FIOS over residential FIOS if you don't need static
IP addresses, at least if you're at an address where both are available.
I pay $125/month for 50/50 with 5 statics, which serves my household and
my IT consulting home office. I don't think my budget could cover "more
expensive" SLA-bound circuits :). I looked into whether I could get same
speed lower cost or higher speed same cost after the Frontier cutover,
but I'm afraid all I have to look forward to is same speed higher cost
when my current two year legacy Verizon contract expires :(.

Maybe I should move to Texas - Google business fiber 250/250 for
$100/month, with 13 statics for some additional cost I can't find
documented. Plus IPv6. Be nice to have some last mile competition around
here. LA is on their "some day" list, but who knows what that means
geographically plus they've pretty much stopped expanding and switched
to wireless 8-/.

Re: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

[Christopher Morrow]

On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 4:53 PM, Paul B. Henson  wrote:

> > From: Christopher Morrow
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 8:42 AM
> >
> > and think about it, you could get ipv6 on your network... the OP still
> > doesn't have that native on his fios I bet.
>
> Yeah, sure, pour salt on my still open wound ;).
>
>
maybe now would be a good time to ask your vz rep about this 'feature'?

RE: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

[Paul B. Henson]

> From: Matthew Black
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 9:41 AM
> 
> I'm a Frontier FiOS customer in SoCal and have had trouble loading the
> Google home page for weeks. Had trouble loading Gmail last night.

When it's up, I rarely have connectivity issues. Of course, I have business
class fios and only use their pipe; I run my own DNS and other services, I
don't know specifically what is causing your issue.. In the eight months
since the cutover, I had some intermittent connectivity issues during the
week of the cutover itself, one three-day complete outage pretty much
identical to this 18 hour outage, and maybe two or three times I can recall
having issues getting to some piece of the Internet which may or may not
have been a Frontier problem.

I'd say overall I'm pretty happy with it when it's working. My main
complaint is that when it stops working I drop into a complete vacuum of
helplessness where I am unable to speak to anybody who can actually diagnose
and rectify whatever the underlying failure is which is preventing it from
working.

That and it's ridiculous not to have native IPv6 for business class Internet
at this point.

Re: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

[Ray Van Dolson]

On Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 01:52:15PM -0800, Paul B. Henson wrote:
> > From: valdis.kletni...@vt.edu
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 6:49 AM
> > 
> > Even if nothing else happens, calling in and reporting the problem *does*
> > (or at least it *should*) set the clock running for any SLA-related
> > compensation.
> 
> I'm pretty sure FIOS doesn't have any contractual SLA's. I suppose if you
> call and whine enough you might get a billing credit, but as another poster
> pointed out, it's generally not worth it.
> 

Have been evaluating going to more consumerish-grade circuits like this
at remote locations, but this scenario is one that has kept me sticking
with the more traditional (and more expensive) SLA-bound circuits.

Ray

RE: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

[Paul B. Henson]

> From: Christopher Morrow
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 8:42 AM
>
> and think about it, you could get ipv6 on your network... the OP still
> doesn't have that native on his fios I bet.

Yeah, sure, pour salt on my still open wound ;).

RE: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

[Paul B. Henson]

> From: valdis.kletni...@vt.edu
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 6:49 AM
> 
> Even if nothing else happens, calling in and reporting the problem *does*
> (or at least it *should*) set the clock running for any SLA-related
> compensation.

I'm pretty sure FIOS doesn't have any contractual SLA's. I suppose if you
call and whine enough you might get a billing credit, but as another poster
pointed out, it's generally not worth it.

RE: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

[Matthew Black]

I'm a Frontier FiOS customer in SoCal and have had trouble loading the Google 
home page for weeks. Had trouble loading Gmail last night. 

Re: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

[Christopher Morrow]

On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 8:37 AM, Jared Mauch  wrote:

>
> > On Jan 4, 2017, at 7:54 AM, Baldur Norddahl 
> wrote:
> >
> > I solved this issue by making my own ISP.
>
> I’ve been thinking of the same in my underserved area.  Labor is $5/foot
> here and despite friends and colleagues telling me to move, it seems I have
> a sub-60 month ROI (and sub-year for some areas I’ve modeled with modest
> uptake rates of 15-20% where the other options are fixed wireless, Cellular
> data or dial).
>
> Hope is to do a presentation in the fall or next year with progress.  We
> have areas around here where Comcast, (AT or Frontier) don’t even serve.
> The municipality is off getting bids to build due to market failure by the
> incumbents to invest. municipal fiber is nigh on illegal here in Michigan
> but with no incumbent it is feasible and my hope is will lock out people
> who are unwilling to invest despite their market cap.
>
>
and think about it, you could get ipv6 on your network... the OP still
doesn't have that native on his fios I bet.

Re: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

[David Hubbard]

Last 18 hour outage I experienced got me a fantastic half month credit.  It 
cost us more to pay me for the time I spent on hold than the credit was worth, 
so I no longer call them if we’re down and downdetector shows others in the 
area are too.  We’re in the process of moving the circuit to a backup role, but 
it’s proving to be a long process getting fiber run to an alternative.

David 

On 1/4/17, 9:48 AM, "nanog-boun...@nanog.org on behalf of 
valdis.kletni...@vt.edu"  wrote:

On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 00:28:57 -0800, "Paul B. Henson" said:

> I'm about at the point where next time it goes down and it appears to be
> a remote issue I'm not going to bother to call it in; I'll just cross my
> fingers and hope it fixes itself within a day or so and only report it
> if it doesn't. I don't think my calls today did anything but waste my
> time.

Even if nothing else happens, calling in and reporting the problem *does*
(or at least it *should*) set the clock running for any SLA-related 
compensation.

Re: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

[Valdis . Kletnieks]

On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 00:28:57 -0800, "Paul B. Henson" said:

> I'm about at the point where next time it goes down and it appears to be
> a remote issue I'm not going to bother to call it in; I'll just cross my
> fingers and hope it fixes itself within a day or so and only report it
> if it doesn't. I don't think my calls today did anything but waste my
> time.

Even if nothing else happens, calling in and reporting the problem *does*
(or at least it *should*) set the clock running for any SLA-related 
compensation.




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RE: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

[Shawn L]

Depending on the area and conditions (rock, etc).  We're seeing
 
$4 /foot Aerial
$5-$7 /foot direct bury
$10 - $14 /foot directional bore
 
These are not including the fiber cable itself.
 


-Original Message-
From: "Luke Guillory" <lguill...@reservetele.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2017 8:50am
To: "Jared Mauch" <ja...@puck.nether.net>, "Baldur Norddahl" 
<baldur.nordd...@gmail.com>
Cc: "nanog@nanog.org" <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: RE: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing



Our model is 15k a mile all in, this is for aerial not underground for our 
HFC/Coax builds. A partner of ours models their underground fiber builds at 30k 
a mile.

This is in south Louisiana so your market may vary as always.






Luke Guillory
Network Operations Manager

Tel: 985.536.1212
Fax: 985.536.0300
Email: lguill...@reservetele.com

Reserve Telecommunications
100 RTC Dr
Reserve, LA 70084

_

Disclaimer:
The information transmitted, including attachments, is intended only for the 
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-Original Message-
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Jared Mauch
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 7:37 AM
To: Baldur Norddahl
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing


> On Jan 4, 2017, at 7:54 AM, Baldur Norddahl <baldur.nordd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I solved this issue by making my own ISP.

I’ve been thinking of the same in my underserved area. Labor is $5/foot here 
and despite friends and colleagues telling me to move, it seems I have a sub-60 
month ROI (and sub-year for some areas I’ve modeled with modest uptake rates of 
15-20% where the other options are fixed wireless, Cellular data or dial).

Hope is to do a presentation in the fall or next year with progress. We have 
areas around here where Comcast, (AT or Frontier) don’t even serve. The 
municipality is off getting bids to build due to market failure by the 
incumbents to invest. municipal fiber is nigh on illegal here in Michigan but 
with no incumbent it is feasible and my hope is will lock out people who are 
unwilling to invest despite their market cap.

- Jared

RE: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

[Luke Guillory]

Our model is 15k a mile all in, this is  for aerial  not underground for our 
HFC/Coax builds. A partner of ours models their underground fiber builds at 30k 
a mile.

This is in south Louisiana so your market may vary as always.






Luke Guillory
Network Operations Manager

Tel:985.536.1212
Fax:985.536.0300
Email:  lguill...@reservetele.com

Reserve Telecommunications
100 RTC Dr
Reserve, LA 70084

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-Original Message-
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Jared Mauch
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 7:37 AM
To: Baldur Norddahl
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing


> On Jan 4, 2017, at 7:54 AM, Baldur Norddahl <baldur.nordd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I solved this issue by making my own ISP.

I’ve been thinking of the same in my underserved area.  Labor is $5/foot here 
and despite friends and colleagues telling me to move, it seems I have a sub-60 
month ROI (and sub-year for some areas I’ve modeled with modest uptake rates of 
15-20% where the other options are fixed wireless, Cellular data or dial).

Hope is to do a presentation in the fall or next year with progress.  We have 
areas around here where Comcast, (AT or Frontier) don’t even serve.  The 
municipality is off getting bids to build due to market failure by the 
incumbents to invest. municipal fiber is nigh on illegal here in Michigan but 
with no incumbent it is feasible and my hope is will lock out people who are 
unwilling to invest despite their market cap.

- Jared

Re: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

[Jared Mauch]

> On Jan 4, 2017, at 7:54 AM, Baldur Norddahl  wrote:
> 
> I solved this issue by making my own ISP.

I’ve been thinking of the same in my underserved area.  Labor is $5/foot here 
and despite friends and colleagues telling me to move, it seems I have a sub-60 
month ROI (and sub-year for some areas I’ve modeled with modest uptake rates of 
15-20% where the other options are fixed wireless, Cellular data or dial).

Hope is to do a presentation in the fall or next year with progress.  We have 
areas around here where Comcast, (AT or Frontier) don’t even serve.  The 
municipality is off getting bids to build due to market failure by the 
incumbents to invest. municipal fiber is nigh on illegal here in Michigan but 
with no incumbent it is feasible and my hope is will lock out people who are 
unwilling to invest despite their market cap.

- Jared

Re: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

[Baldur Norddahl]

I solved this issue by making my own ISP.

On 04-01-2017 12:10, Dovid Bender wrote:

Whenever I call my local ISP with an issue I just make tier1 and tier2
dizzy so they escalate.


On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 3:28 AM, Paul B. Henson  wrote:


On Tue, Jan 03, 2017 at 06:56:13PM -0800, Paul B. Henson wrote:


Hopefully it won't be three days this time.

Well, my FIOS mysteriously came back online about 9:45pm, a bit over 18
hours after it mysteriously dropped offline. I happened to be in the
wiring closet staring angrily at the ONT about 8:30ish and noticed that
it reset itself 2 or 3 times over the course of about 10 minutes, so I
get the feeling somebody was fiddling with it remotely. I suppose I'll
never really know what was broken or how it ended up being fixed, other
than having about 100% certainty it was on the far side of the fiber.

It's understandable that equipment breaks, and people misconfigure
things sometimes. What I find insanely frustrating is the complete
disconnect between level 1/2 support and the network engineers that
actually know what's going on. When I called this morning with a
complete outage of my business class FIOS, somebody probably knew it was
down, or at least should have been able to tell it was down. But instead
I get to waste hours of my time going through meaningless
troubleshooting steps because lower level support doesn't have that
information. And then after actually getting an escalation to someone
who confirms an outage and gives me a ticket #, later follow up once
again yields a complete lack of knowledge of what's clearly an outage,
whether of just my connection or more widespread.

I'm about at the point where next time it goes down and it appears to be
a remote issue I'm not going to bother to call it in; I'll just cross my
fingers and hope it fixes itself within a day or so and only report it
if it doesn't. I don't think my calls today did anything but waste my
time.

Re: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

[Dovid Bender]

Whenever I call my local ISP with an issue I just make tier1 and tier2
dizzy so they escalate.


On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 3:28 AM, Paul B. Henson  wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 03, 2017 at 06:56:13PM -0800, Paul B. Henson wrote:
>
> > Hopefully it won't be three days this time.
>
> Well, my FIOS mysteriously came back online about 9:45pm, a bit over 18
> hours after it mysteriously dropped offline. I happened to be in the
> wiring closet staring angrily at the ONT about 8:30ish and noticed that
> it reset itself 2 or 3 times over the course of about 10 minutes, so I
> get the feeling somebody was fiddling with it remotely. I suppose I'll
> never really know what was broken or how it ended up being fixed, other
> than having about 100% certainty it was on the far side of the fiber.
>
> It's understandable that equipment breaks, and people misconfigure
> things sometimes. What I find insanely frustrating is the complete
> disconnect between level 1/2 support and the network engineers that
> actually know what's going on. When I called this morning with a
> complete outage of my business class FIOS, somebody probably knew it was
> down, or at least should have been able to tell it was down. But instead
> I get to waste hours of my time going through meaningless
> troubleshooting steps because lower level support doesn't have that
> information. And then after actually getting an escalation to someone
> who confirms an outage and gives me a ticket #, later follow up once
> again yields a complete lack of knowledge of what's clearly an outage,
> whether of just my connection or more widespread.
>
> I'm about at the point where next time it goes down and it appears to be
> a remote issue I'm not going to bother to call it in; I'll just cross my
> fingers and hope it fixes itself within a day or so and only report it
> if it doesn't. I don't think my calls today did anything but waste my
> time.
>

Re: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

[Paul B. Henson]

On Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 04:01:03AM +, Mel Beckman wrote:

> If a Frontier tech is on this list, I ask you kindly figure out what
> the blasted deal is with your vanishing ticket numbers. This has been
> going on for MONTHS!

The cynic in me wonders if somebody is trying to artificially inflate
their metrics ;). Problems? Who's having problems 8-/?

That's interesting though, I wonder if that's what happened to the
reference number I was given in the morning that was MIA in the
afternoon; it vanished into helpdesk limbo... At least my issue did get
somehow fixed so I won't have to call again tomorrow; ah, small favors :).

Re: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

[Paul B. Henson]

On Tue, Jan 03, 2017 at 06:56:13PM -0800, Paul B. Henson wrote:

> Hopefully it won't be three days this time.

Well, my FIOS mysteriously came back online about 9:45pm, a bit over 18
hours after it mysteriously dropped offline. I happened to be in the
wiring closet staring angrily at the ONT about 8:30ish and noticed that
it reset itself 2 or 3 times over the course of about 10 minutes, so I
get the feeling somebody was fiddling with it remotely. I suppose I'll
never really know what was broken or how it ended up being fixed, other
than having about 100% certainty it was on the far side of the fiber.

It's understandable that equipment breaks, and people misconfigure
things sometimes. What I find insanely frustrating is the complete
disconnect between level 1/2 support and the network engineers that
actually know what's going on. When I called this morning with a
complete outage of my business class FIOS, somebody probably knew it was
down, or at least should have been able to tell it was down. But instead
I get to waste hours of my time going through meaningless
troubleshooting steps because lower level support doesn't have that
information. And then after actually getting an escalation to someone
who confirms an outage and gives me a ticket #, later follow up once
again yields a complete lack of knowledge of what's clearly an outage,
whether of just my connection or more widespread.

I'm about at the point where next time it goes down and it appears to be
a remote issue I'm not going to bother to call it in; I'll just cross my
fingers and hope it fixes itself within a day or so and only report it
if it doesn't. I don't think my calls today did anything but waste my
time.

Re: SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

[Mel Beckman]

Every time I’ve opened a FIOS ticket, Frontier can never find the ticket later. 
I even escalated all the way to the president of Frontier. Someone in his 
office took all my info and discussed the problems at length, and finally gave 
me something like a $150 credit.

Now I just pray it never goes down, because when it does, Frontier is not 
competent to solve the problem in anything like a timely fashion.

If a Frontier tech is on this list, I ask you kindly figure out what the 
blasted deal is with your vanishing ticket numbers. This has been going on for 
MONTHS!

 -mel beckman

> On Jan 3, 2017, at 6:56 PM, Paul B. Henson  wrote:
> 
> So I woke up this morning to discover my business FIOS had croaked about
> 3:30 AM :(. Everything looked good on the ONT, but couldn't ping the
> gateway. Poked at it from the other side, and it looked like traceroute
> died a hop or so short of what I remember, so seemed to be a layer 3
> issue on their side. Called support, killed an hour going through the
> level 1 checklist (I suppose I understand why they have to do it, but it
> doesn't make it any less frustrating to have to do the reset/power
> cycle/cable reseat dance when you already know it's not going to change
> a thing). Finally talked her into escalating the issue, and was told
> there was a known outage in my area with reference #37202878, no cause
> provided, and no ETA on resolution. Yay.
> 
> So I opened a chat session a little bit ago to see if I could get an
> update on when my FIOS might come back. Of course the support tech
> wanted to lead me through the dance again , but I explained my
> earlier conversation and asked him if he could just update me on the
> outage. He said he had no record of that outage. I talked him into
> escalating the issue again. He said his escalation engineer had never
> heard of that outage or that reference number, and that everything
> seemed fine with my FIOS, and I should just try resetting the ONT again
> 8-/.
> 
> So here I am, still with no FIOS, a general outage that may or may not
> exist, and support techs with different stories :(. The last time I had
> a problem like this my FIOS was down about three days, level 1 and level
> 2 support swore there was nothing wrong with it and had actually
> scheduled a truck roll to replace my ONT, and it turned out to be an
> accidental misconfiguration that took a while to resolve. I'm assuming
> something similar happened again this time, same mysterious layer 3
> breakage in the middle of the night, same claims by layer 1 and layer 2
> support that  there's nothing wrong, same obvious layer 3 functionality
> issues. I'm guessing it will eventually just start working again.
> Hopefully it won't be three days this time. If anybody in Frontier land
> wants to throw a fellow network admin a bone and has any information on
> this potential outage or when my FIOS might come back online I'd really
> appreciate knowing :).
> 
> On another note, I was wondering if anybody has had their static FIOS IP
> addresses migrated from Verizon space to Frontier space yet? Last April
> they said they are going to do it by this April, which only leaves four
> months. So far I haven't heard anything about it regarding my account.
> 
> Thanks…
>